[Can you be a "good" member of the Church and not want to go to church?]

I guess I just wonder what others get out of me sitting in Sacrament Meeting? Aside from my family, of course. I could see it if I was giving a talk. And I don't really get to socialize with other members because I have to leave a few minutes early to get the Nursery set up. So except for the parents of my Nursery kids, I have almost no interaction with other adults at church.

Try going a little early and greeting people as they walk in the door. Like I said, sometimes the social aspect of our religion is something that has to be learned, at least to develop an appreciation for it. We all have roadblocks in some form or another. Fortunately, it is the desire of our heart from which we are judged. The most important thing is to maintain that desire for sociability, even if it is not practical or achieved in this life. Just like a mother who can't have children, one should not drop the desire for such things just because it cannot be achieved in this life.

I like how "weakness" is described in the 'guide to the scriptures'; "The condition of being mortal and lacking ability, strength, or skill. Weakness is a state of being." It includes "lacking ability". But even "lacking ability" does not preclude desire. We have to maintain hope and desire for our weaknesses to be made strong. The last thing you want to do is give up hope that there is a reason despite your perception that there is nothing there. Ether 12 " 27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness."

I don't know you this well to say this but I am just throwing this out there as one possibility so please don't take this as a statement that I know you but, maybe the benefit of going to sacrament meeting is the revealing of this particular weakness, that you find it hard to be sociable. If that is shown to you to be how you feel about going to sacrament meeting then take it as a "weakness" (includes lack of ability) but maintain a desire to change that and what will be received, in turn, is an increase in "faith, hope and charity" as well as humility and then God will make those weak things strong, maybe not in this life but it will be returned to you if you maintain that hope and desire.

Be assured, though, that the same types of social structure that exists in the church, the family unit being the center of that social structure, will exist in the next life. This is in part why we call our fellow church members, "brothers" and "sisters" to help remind us of the importance of our social responsibility and the structure that will exist in the next life. It is important to look at your fellow members as literal brothers and sisters. And, again, some things we just have to learn to like or at least maintain a desire to learn.

[Spirit, Life and Dark Energy]

Thank you for your post - it leaves food for thought.

I think there is one glaring problem with the Doughnut Theory - That is the theory that the universe is isotropic or that the principles of physics that apply somewhere are uniform and apply everywhere. If the universe was once a small doughnut then if the expansion that has that has taken place for 14 billion years is isotropic - the universal doughnut shape would fold over on itself and eventually resemble a sphere - thus the 4 dimensional sphere theory.

But if anyone is interested I believe that the pursuit of dark energy is a step towards proving intelligence at operation in variations of density defining the structure of our universe. This is based on recent developments in defining intelligent response with research of intelligence in slime mold in concert with developments of what is now being called the Hive Mind.

The Traveler

More likely, Isaiah speaks closer to the truth; Isaiah 65" 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

Everything will change with the millenium including the heavens and all this speculation about forces we now observe will not be remembered or come to mind. Why? Because this world and the universe we see was only intended to be a temporary habitat in its current form. What is made from dust will return to dust.

We are told the heavens and Earth will be like the old but it is changed and how and to what degree we don't know. Ether; " 9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new." The change is probably equal in magnitude to the distance of the Fall from Paradise, whatever amount that is. I suspect the Fall was a long distance.

One thing we don know though is that we have not seen the way the Earth and the Heavens will be transfigured, i.e. - science cannot see it. The apostles have but not science - 3 Nephi; " 21 When the earth shall be transfigured, even according to the pattern which was shown unto mine apostles upon the mount; of which account the fulness ye have not yet received."

So, all of this talk is about things that are temporary in nature, we do not have access to see the eternal nature, unless one is an apostle and shown these things. To see those things, the apostles had to be transfigured, "upon the mount".

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

My comments are never meant to insult - not a person nor any religion. My entire efforts is to cause a person to think, even to carefully reread scripture they have studied and provide reason for G-d to touch a "willing" to learn heart. I have said many times that I would change my opinion and even my religion in a heart beat if there was a better way. And that is my commitment - both to my self (even in my profession as a consulting engineer) and to those with whom I associate. I had hoped that you would look deep into your heart rather than into shallow one-sided prefab answers given to you - even by well meaning mortals.

The apostle Paul said in essence that if we have hope (understanding) of Christ with a perspective of this life alone - we are of all men most miserable. If we attempt to measure justice beginning at birth - we will very sadly misunderstand a great many things. If we believe that human lot begins at birth and moves on - even for a very long time we will only come to realize that birth is a blatant injustice.

I submit that the "Fall" is a perhaps the most misunderstood principle in scripture and in all religion. I believe it is misunderstood because it is also not appreciated. The mission of the fall is the knowledge of good and evil. The opportunity that such knowledge brings is the purpose for which you and everyone else were born - and I believe - that without which, any "salvation" would be worthless. Yes birth is an injustice - and without that understanding we will never consider why - and if we cannot realize why - we will, as Paul said - be miserable. Why, because we will never understand that it was not just our choice before we were born but the hope of G-d for those he loved most from the beginning and the reason that G-d sacrificed so much for creation.

The Traveler

How much "misery" does a baby that lives 5 minutes experience?

In other words, does a 5 minute old infant comprehend "misery" such that she has satisfied your definition of the supreme goal of this life?

Or what about a child with anencephalie (born without the part of the brain that allows for cognition - they cannot perceive anything) that lives 5 minutes?

One of Satan's deceptions to Adam and Eve (Eve in particular) was that the tree of Death (tree of knowledge of good and evil) would provide them with knowledge of good and evil automatically. The issue not understood by Satan is that it is simply the door to pass through to have the opportunity to be like our Heavenly Father, to know good and evil. They didn't receive all information but started to understand or see things through a different perspective, little by little. Adam, at first, did not know why he had to perform sacrifices other than being told to do so. Having full knowledge is not a goal of this life and therefore knowing misery is not requisite but having the capacity to know is, which will come as a result of having passed through this life. After this life we will have an opportunity to learn all.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

Please reference in which post I even remotely suggested that we are punished for Adam's transgression?

But let me review where I think you are creating a misunderstanding.

The first point is directly related to "The Fall" I will call it the fall of man rather than the fall of Adam. This is because I believe that the term "Adam" used in scripture can also be interpreted to be a title that is symbolic of all man kind and that every person in trying to interpret the scriptures in relation to the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden should think of themselves as respectively - Adam and Eve.

Second point - relates to our condition and circumstance in this life - I really do not care if you think of this life as punishment or opportunity. What I suggest is that our being born into the fallen condition of man is justly the result of our free will choice to do so before we were born.

Third point - if we suffer both spiritual and physical death by the experience of this life without having a choice - I contend that for a G-d to force such a condition without a free choice - such a G-d is not just.

Again I contend that Adam fell because he chose to pursue knowledge of good and evil - that the fall was the result of that specific choice - I am stating that if G-d forced the rest of us to gain a knowledge of Good and Evil with allowing us that same choice - that G-d is unjust. Please tell me how G-d would be just if we did not also have that same choice?

I am saying there is no justice unless we make a choice. Please tell me how there can be justice without a choice.

I contend that if G-d determines for us - that he is unjust and as stated is a respecter of persons - that if G-d allows us to choose - then our choice is just and G-d is just for allowing us to choose. All that I am saying is if we have circumstance that results from something other than our choice that that circumstance is not just and if G-d is responsible or allows such circumstance without allowing our choice - that such a G-d is not just.

I am saying if you believe G-d forces circumstance without choice - I understand and recognize that you therefore believe in a unjust G-d. Please tell me how there is justice without choice. In LDS doctrine we call this agency - please explain to me why you call yourself LDS and do not believe in agency or choice concerning the fall.

The Traveler

This is what you said; "I am trying to communicate in every way that I can; that I believe that G-d is no respecter of person and therefore is just; not giving any advantage of one person over another. Therefore I do not believe Adam and Eve were given a different set of circumstances for their choice with the same consequences.

I am assuming from your question that you do not believe G-d to be just and in truth is a respecter of persons – obviously giving an advantage to Adam and Eve (or other individuals) or some disadvantage to others and causing all others to carry the same consequences of the choices of Adam and Eve that you are sure was to some degree of different circumstance."

I was responding to that highlighted. I agree with God not giving an advantage one person over another. I said that. But I don't agree with your conclusion that "Therefore I do not believe Adam and Eve were given a different set of circumstances for their choice with the same consequences." The reason I don't agree with your conclusion is because I think that is accounted for in the statement that where "much is given much is required". God is just while we all have different circumstances because He can take those into account. We do not have to perform the same acts, we only have to do what God would have us do in our life. For some, that is nothing, those that die before the age of 8. This, of course, I am referring to the things that took place after making the first estate choice.

This concept is explained in Matthew 20 with the parable of the workers in the vineyard; " 11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."

They had the same consequences even though the workers had different conditions. What do you have to say about that? "Is thine eye evil, because He is good?"

[Noah]

I personally believe that the worse possible scenario would involve a G-d that would deliberately provide dialog through his most inspired and trusted believers that has no possible basis in reality of what actually took place.

I would rather believe that I misunderstand sacred scripture or that sacred scripture has been altered; than try to deal with or have faith in a G-d that lies (deliberately misdirects by providing partial or incomplete truths).

The Traveler

Matthew 13; " 9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

D&C 20: " 14 And those who receive it in faith, and work righteousness, shall receive a crown of eternal life;

15 But those who harden their hearts in unbelief, and reject it, it shall turn to their own condemnation—"

The purpose of the written word is to give to those that have through the spirit and to also be a source of condemnation to those who don't receive it in faith. Scripture is written, in part, to force a decision between belief and unbelief. It has to be written in such a way that it requires faith to accept, at least some of it.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

Let me just interject here for a moment.

I understand Traveler's points and there is a logic in it that makes a lot of sense. I also see what you're trying to say which also makes sense.

But, I do not think that Adam's Fall and Christ's Atonement is in any way related merely because of the fact that Christ is God while Adam is not. Christ, as God - thereby being perfect, is the only one qualified to stand for us. Adam is not God, therefore, he cannot do for us things required for our salvation that Christ can. But, like the prophets have done - from Adam to Moses to Nephi to Joseph Smith - they can pave the way for us. So, I can see how Traveler sees the Genesis story as symbolic of the leap from our Pre-Mortal Existence to our second estate with Adam being the first to make the choice and pave the way for all of us to make the same.

Of course, and I didn't mean to imply that. All I was referring to was the idea that we accept vicarious acts with which we don't have to perform them for ourselves individually in the same way. Although, I agree, there usually is some method or symbol to show that we accept the act. I suspect the accepting of Adams fall was by way of passing the first estate test. I am sure that was what the war in heaven was about, why fall?

As another example, we have but a few prophets, seers and revelators that carry the keys of the priesthood for our time. We don't all have to carry all the keys and yet we benefit from being directed by a prophet and apostles.

Through Adam the door was opened for us to come here but that doesn't mean that we each had to open the door, it was opened for us. We still have to choose to walk through it. Those that didn't want to come here made that choice by following Lucifer in the war in Heaven or as part of the first estate test. But, the important thing to know is that passing the first estate test was not a transgression in the way Adam's act was.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

I am trying to communicate in every way that I can; that I believe that G-d is no respecter of person and therefore is just; not giving any advantage of one person over another. Therefore I do not believe Adam and Eve were given a different set of circumstances for their choice with the same consequences.

I am assuming from your question that you do not believe G-d to be just and in truth is a respecter of persons – obviously giving an advantage to Adam and Eve (or other individuals) or some disadvantage to others and causing all others to carry the same consequences of the choices of Adam and Eve that you are sure was to some degree of different circumstance.

The Traveler

I think we need to review the Articles of Faith.

" 2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

It seems to me that you are trying to say that we are all punished for Adam's transgression. You keep going back to that. So, how do you justify your view that we all faced the same choice and yet we are not punished for the transgression of Adam, which signifies how his choice affected us. Obviously, this is an article of faith because some might erroneously believe that we all face what Adam faced by committing the same transgression that Adam did. Adam did it for us. Adam fell that men might be (2 Nephi). Did Adam fall for just himself or for all mankind? You can't have it both ways. Either he fell for himself only or for all mankind, which is it? If Adam fell for all mankind, then we do not have to make the same choice in the same setting. He did it for us. In the same way, I don't have to be crucified. We do believe in vicarious acts.

If God is no respector of persons in the way that you are suggesting, that everyone has to do the thing for their self, then you would not believe in a Savior. The whole concept of a Savior is an individual doing something for us so that we do not have to pay the price our self, as this is a price we cannot pay.

God is not a respector of persons as it is stated in the third article of faith. All are welcome to listen to the commandments and obey them, God will not turn any away because of their outward man (i.e.-their physical body), their race, or station in life, because God is not a respector of physical persons but is a respector of the spirit. God can separate our individual circumstances and understands "where much is given much is required." As Jesus taught Luke; "48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Do you really believe that Adam did not Fall for us as the scripture states, that we have to each be Adam and Eve? Isn't that what Satan wanted, that we each do it for ourselves not requiring a Savior or giving the glory to someone else or having to give praise for someone else deed such as Adam. Lucifer never understood the concept of shared glory and sharing in the happiness of someone else success. We shouted for joy for Adam's deed for us.

D&C 70; " 9 Behold, this is what the Lord requires of every man in his stewardship, even as I, the Lord, have appointed or shall hereafter appoint unto any man."

In other words, every man's stewardship is different but God can and will determine what is required of each based in their individual and varied stewardship. Would you call that a respector of persons? No, because all are welcome to fulfill their individual stewardship even though they are varied.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

Sorry not to have been involved in this discussion more. Although LDS "doctrine" differs greatly from Catholic doctrine there are a lot of important fundamental principles that seem to me that are quite similar. But there is one principle that I am both confident and quite adamant about - That is that G-d is just. If a person believes this very simple and fundamental principle there are realities concerning this life experience that are most problematic - especially in light of traditional beliefs.

It can be argued that the fall is just because Adam and Eve rebelled and sinned against G-d. That is rhetorically sound logic that is easily demonstrated by both scripture and empirical observation. What concerns me is not Adam and Eve but everybody else. If we mitigate the human condition as beginning existence with the parameters of the fall; rhetorical logic prohibits justice as an indisputable principle. If fact I contend that a honest person cannot rhetorically argue that the effects of the fall upon the entire human family is the just design of a G-d completely in control of his creation. To say that Adam and Eve being allowed to begin their existence in Eden and to make choice was just but that no other human be allowed such choice in any kind of similar condition? - there is an obvious rhetorical flaw - both in scripture and empirical experience to interpret such unquestionable injustice as just. It concerns me more that a person pretending to believe in a just G-d would even consider mitigating that the fall was not a choice of just Adam and Eve but a choice of free will expression of all that live out their lives under the effects of the fall. This to me is a major flaw of traditional doctrines.

In addition I am also amazed that anyone in this current existence would argue that we are dual beings living in a dual existence (test) of a spiritual paradise and a physical hell. The rhetorical arguments referencing scripture and empirical experience to justify such duality completely befuddle and astound me. I believe the fall to be both physical and spiritual.

The Traveler

Are you trying to suggest that all of us existed in a state like Eden, with a physical body before being born into the Fall? Otherwise, I am not sure how that situation could have been "similar" in any way. It would have to be done in a state of paradise but with bodies that had physical passions and in a state of innocence and forgetful of the past and yet in the presence of God. When did that occur for everyone else?

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

Yes, a belief we don't share But what does this have to do with the discussion we were having, and how is this relevant to the verse you quoted from the BOM in regards to faith coming before miracles? The verse you quoted makes it clear that a person can not receive miracles from our Father unless they have sufficient faith first, yet there are millions of people who don't have faith and receive miracles from God all the time, they just consider these miracles to be luck rather than give thanks and glory to God. And there are many instances in the bible where miracles occured before faith was shown by the person(s).

So, according to what you believe, all of humanity already passed a test of faith choosing God over Lucifer? Why another test of faith then, espcially when the "test" began by our first parents listening to Lucifer and disobeying God?

That is a great question! You are well on your way to understanding the plan of salvation and the plan of happiness.

It has a little to do with the issue that faith without works is dead. We are now in the phase of our test where we have to show that we will do what we said we would. I think of the oath a soldier might take to "leave no soldier behind" while they are in boot camp. That is easy to say in that situation. But when actually faced with the situation where that statement comes into play, not every soldier would risk their own life to save another. That is where the hero is separated from the soldier.

The purpose of this life is not to determine who goes to hell vs heaven. It is a test to stratify those that go to heaven. There are three degrees of glory. This life is a test to separate all those that got an A in the first test.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

What about the miracle of childbirth? Atheists give birth to babies, and although they may be amazed at how awesome our bodies are to do such a thing, they in no way credit such a miracle to God, b/c they don't believe in Him. God provides us with miracles every day, sometimes in small, hidden ways, or even large unexplainable ways, which many people who don't have faith, attribute to sheer luck. Gods love us all, even those who turn away and try to hide from Him, He still wishes to draw all souls to Himself so that they may know His love, I'm sure this is something you also believe.

"First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all". (1 Tim 2:1-6)

All who are here passed a test of faith, they kept the first estate in the premortal world. They were given a choice to follow the plan or follow Lucifer. All here chose to stay with God's plan and they made that choice by way of faith having never been out of God's presence. It is a privilege and a blessing any of us have to be born into this world and it is as a result of making a faithful choice.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

No, that's not what I said or what I meant. In those days, in that culture, anyone w/a disability or disease was an outcast, considered unclean and worthless to society. Jesus went to them to show them, and all his followers, the mercy and love of God, which is bestowed on all mankind, including the ones w/disabilities. Jesus was teaching his Apostles and followers that God loves all, that we are all part of the human family and should all be treated w/dignity and respect. And He was also displayng the glory and power of God so that they might believe who He was.

Jesus has come the first time as the merciful saviour, to teach us how to love one another and obey our Father in everything. He will come again as the just judge and do away with death once and for all, and everyone will be subjected to a final judgement. But for now, our souls are judged at death.

That is a great start but let me share with you are a more detailed and fuller understanding of the principle;

Ether 12; " 6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that afaith is things which are bhoped for and cnot seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no dwitness until after the etrial of your faith."

Ether 12; " 12 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith. 17 And it was by faith that the three disciples obtained a promise that they should not taste of death; and they obtained not the promise until after their faith.

18 And neither at any time hath any wrought miracles until after their faith; wherefore they first believed in the Son of God."

One such example; Matthew; " 27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.

28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, bBelieve ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you."

The Apostles also taught this, healing a lame man and explaining that the restoration and restitution from the effects of the Fall to our physical state comes through faith followed by repentance; Acts 3: " 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the bfaith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Also Hebrews 11 - the many miracles done through faith.

[Can you be a "good" member of the Church and not want to go to church?]

Okay, there are 2 great commandments:

1.) Love God.

2.) Love your neighbors as yourself.

All other covenants/commandments are contained within these 2 commandments.

The first one is easily understood.

The second one is where good people get tripped up. If all we think about is our comfort, we can't love our neighbors. It is necessary to be with our neighbors to be able to love them. Love is service. So yes, we show our love for God by reading scriptures, studying the gospel, fulfilling our convenants - and partaking of the Sacrament. But then we need to think about loving others like ourselves. And Christ showed us exactly what that entails when he knelt down and washed his apostles' feet.

So yes, we learn and understand the gospel by reading it at home. Alone. And we get filled with the Spirit. There are others who don't understand it and can benefit from you sharing what you know in Sunday School. Or Relief Society.

And this is the perfect time to pull one of my favorite quotes from Two Weeks Notice: "Not everything is about you." :)

I 100% agree.

Charity requires the focus to be away from self and I think that is the underlying motive for church attendance and second to participate in the sacrament and thirdly to learn and feel the spirit. I have found myself to be more regular with meetings when charity is the primary reason and when I go out of my way to recognize and interact, even in a small way, with everyone around me.

A few years ago we had a problem in our ward of the young women leaving right after sacrament and not attending the other meetings. The solution was to make sure that we as a presidency knew every one of those girls at a personal level. I knew where they went to school, who their friends were, how they were doing in school, what they liked to do in their spare time etc., then they started to come. And they knew that we had an interest in them, not just an interest in whether they attended or not. Not every one of them but quite a few returned.

In the next life, I think we will find that most of our joy comes from the success of others as it is with God, His glory is in bringing about the immortality and eternal life of man. We sometimes need to learn how to like that kind of joy by first being interested in anothers well being, then we will be a good fit for the Celestial Kingdom. The Telestial Kingdom is for those that prefer to be distant as one star differs from another. Sometimes that desire doesn't come naturally and we have to learn to like it.

I never want to ask myself, "am I my brother's keeper?" as that is the opposite attitude from charity.

[Noah]

I'm active LDS, a temple recommend holder and a lot of the stuff in the Old Testament I simply do not consider factual or accurate.

Text can be accurate without being complete. As far as it being factual, I don't think that was ever the intent.

We learned the facts before we came here. We knew all the facts. We learned all the facts until we could learn no more facts. With all those facts there was a choice made. We all made the correct choice given all the facts. Now, this life is not a test of the facts. It is a test to see how faithful we are in trusting in the Lord, do we do what we said we would while we are tied down by the flesh, not having all the facts and access to them like we did before? That is the test of this life. There is no need for God to provide us with all the facts again to repeat the test we already took and passed. This is a test to reveal the true desires of the heart not just the logical answer to a question like taking a math exam. Do we have a propensity to understand the spiritual intent of the lesson and rely on spiritual insight to understand it as opposed to our own learning or the learning of man?

Just because we don't know how it was done or can't show how it was done doesn't make it impossible. How do we know God didn't provide Noah, for example, with the DNA sequence of every creature in the world, one male and one female and a device that would implant the DNA into precursor cells that could be delivered to the right locations around the world after the flood. How much space would that zip drive take? I don't know, cause I just made that up. We don't have all the facts.

I don't think it matters what the mechanism was, it only matters that we don't lose faith in God and His purposes even if we don't totally understand his method. The way to come to grips with that is knowing that it was never intended that we have all the understanding while here. It would defeat the purpose of this life if we had all the understanding.

[How Do You Truly Forgive and Forget Being Hurt?]

How do you truly forgive and forget being hurt such as in an argument with your spouse?

How do you forget so that it is as if it never happened?

I realize that I am supposed to forgive so that I can be forgiven of God for my sins, but how exactly do you forgive somebody who says mean and hurtful things with the intent of hurting you and they aren't repentant evidenced by their saying such things as "Well, I was mad", as if that makes it OK?

What has to happen to really forgive someone is have an understanding that God will hold everyone accountable for their actions and nothing will slip by and at the same time realize that all the spirits here in this world passed the first estate test and will receive a degree of glory that far surpasses anything found in this life.

In other words, often times the small things we get upset about in this life are almost meaningless compared to the greater things in store for us in the next life. It is kind of like when my kids used to fight over the color of bowel they had for cereal in the morning, "no, I get the green one!". I think we will all look back on this life and realize how, as Moses puts it; 'man is nothing'. Compared to what is at stake, the little things we get upset about are truly little.

Knowing that underneath the rough exterior of the outer man lies a daughter or son of God with a divine heritage and traits directly from God allowed Jesus to say, "forgive them for they know not what they do". He understand how fallen we are from our original state and knows us that way. It is hard for us to look at each other as brothers and sisters with a divine heritage because we look through fallen eyes at anothers fallen exterior, often times.

I find it easiest to forgive when I try to imagine the real spirit underneath, how they were before coming here and who they will be, as a person who will inherit a Kingdom of Heaven.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

:) I do not have much time as I'm expecting guests right now, but real fast I'll answer this question. Jesus didn't change them b/c he felt they were unclean, He did so that the Apostles and followers could see for themselves that He indeed was the Messiah. So that that they would know that He did have power given to Him by God. We both know the story of the sick man who was let down through the roof for healing, but Jesus didn't heal him physically first. He forgave the mans sins, which led to disbelief and shock among the people there b/c only God could forgive sins, who did this man think he was anyway?! So that they all knew that He had the power to forgive sins, he then healed the man and had him stand and walk away with his mat.

But, more on this all later, my guests are here!!!! Good questions and God bless!!!

Thanks.

Like I said, the healing comes after the show of faith as that is the test we face. Jesus wouldn't just simply disrupt the test but if the person passes the test that He is judging then he can take the test away, just like he does with children who die before the age of accountability.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

We believe the body and soul, both natures, make up the person. I am a unique individual, out of the billions of people before me, with me now, and still to be born, none will be exactly like me. Our natures are united so closely together, that even after physical death separates us from our souls, we will be reunited to our bodies in the final resurrection, when Jesus comes as the Just Judge and defeats death and sin definitevly (not sure if I spelled that right). When we sin, our choice in the flesh (which also constitutes the mind) damages our soul as well, by rupturing our relationship with God. The more we sin, the more we push ourselves away from God sprititually, God doesn't move away from us, we move away from Him by our actions.

Everyone, including those with disabilities, are made in the image and likeness of God, and as such, are precious and irreplaceable, completely unique in who they are. In Jesus' day and time, those w/disabilities were considered unclean and were cast out from society. Jesus came to them, and showed them just how loved they were and sought to heal them, both physically and spiritually. He taught His followers that even those who were considered "unclean" were not suffering b/c of their parents, and that they too had a special place prepared for them in God's redemptive plan. They too are persons with a right to life, dignity, and to know love, mercy, compassion, and kindness.

And as unique persons, they too have a right to the sacraments, as far as their intelligence and ability allows, but baptism is never denied to any person even those w/disabilities :)

Even though I already posted "I agree", I just wanted to clarify, I agree with the first paragraph.

As far as the second paragraph goes; If Jesus really felt that way, why would He change them? Why would He heal them if as you say they were made in the image of God that way? If the blind man was made in the image of God and that is "irreplaceable" to God, then why would Jesus make the blind man see?

How does a person's "right to life, dignity, and to know love, mercy, compassion and kindness" relate to the first part of your second paragraph in which you claim that they are made with these disabilities because there is value in having uniqueness? The right to all those things would be in becoming more like God, not more distinct from God. Christ' prayer is that we become one as He is one with God. There is a place for those that would like to remain distinct and it is likened to the brightness of the body of the stars, as one star differs from another.

When God created man in His image, He created one man, Adam, and one woman, Eve. He also, with Eden, created the opportunity for man to put in motion a set of consequences related to the Fall. As a result of the Fall, flesh changed away from the original creation. Thus, the need for a Savior to reverse the effects of the Fall. Able and Seth were in the express image of his father Adam but Cain was not. And so we see the result of the Fall, variety, even in the first generation. In fact the flesh became so diverted from the original in the days of Noah that God had to slow down the variety. There are many metaphors in the scriptures related to making sure there is at least some connection to the original, i.e. - grafting in a branch, so as to not stray too far from the original creation. At least this gives us a fighting chance to deal with the corrupted body. As in the days of Noah, the flesh was too corrupted to allow for a good test.

Once the test is passed there is no need to face the challenge any longer. Thus the just judge of Christ, seeing that one has enough faith to satisfy the law can take away the corruption, He can heal or change the body to be more like the original creation. That will fully take place at the resurrection.

The body and all that pertains to it is made from dust and to dust it will return. We shouldn't treasure things that turn to dust but treasure those things that are eternal. The test we face is to figure out was is dust and what is eternal. Its not an easy task.

Elder Bednar, an Apostle of God, explains this very well; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test."

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

We believe the body and soul, both natures, make up the person. I am a unique individual, out of the billions of people before me, with me now, and still to be born, none will be exactly like me. Our natures are united so closely together, that even after physical death separates us from our souls, we will be reunited to our bodies in the final resurrection, when Jesus comes as the Just Judge and defeats death and sin definitevly (not sure if I spelled that right). When we sin, our choice in the flesh (which also constitutes the mind) damages our soul as well, by rupturing our relationship with God. The more we sin, the more we push ourselves away from God sprititually, God doesn't move away from us, we move away from Him by our actions.

Everyone, including those with disabilities, are made in the image and likeness of God, and as such, are precious and irreplaceable, completely unique in who they are. In Jesus' day and time, those w/disabilities were considered unclean and were cast out from society. Jesus came to them, and showed them just how loved they were and sought to heal them, both physically and spiritually. He taught His followers that even those who were considered "unclean" were not suffering b/c of their parents, and that they too had a special place prepared for them in God's redemptive plan. They too are persons with a right to life, dignity, and to know love, mercy, compassion, and kindness.

And as unique persons, they too have a right to the sacraments, as far as their intelligence and ability allows, but baptism is never denied to any person even those w/disabilities :)

I agree.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

Seminarysnoozer, you are oh SO close to saying the same thing Traveler is. You quote St. Paul in Romans yet completely fail to see what he meant. You pick up on the dual nature of man, he is comprised of both a physical, and spiritual nature. These two natures are constantly at war with each other, for the soul longs to turn to God, yet the body, the flesh, is constantly tempted to sin. The nature of our flesh to sin, is Original Sin. Children are born in this fallen nature, a fallen state of righteousness. They don't have any personal sins against them b/c they are too young to understand sin. Yet, those same children will grow to face the same battles in their nature as we all face, b/c they were born in a fallen state of nature. Their what they are is affected by Original Sin, not their who they are. They will not grow up never committing a single sin and, already being made completely righteous and therefore w/o a need for Christ's sanctifying grace. We are ALL in need of Christs atonement. Baptism of infants washes away the stain of Original Sin, and clothes the child in the light of Christ, they are made new in Christ. As a Catholic mother, all 4 of my children were baptized as babies, my husband and I were blessed with these children, they are a gift given to us by God, and as their parents, the stewards of these precious gifts, we made a promise to God to raise them in the love and truth of God, to be faithful and obedient to the Word of God. When they come to the age of reason, they will then receive the sacrament of confirmation as well as their first communion.

The Catholic Church recognizes two other forms of baptism as well, baptism by desire and batism by blood. By desire means, the person ardently wishes to be baptized and made new in Christ but dies before they have that opportunity. Baptism by blood means the person believes in Christ and is martyred defending the Truth.

Thanks for your comments!

LDS do not believe the body is the person. For example, a person that has Down's syndrome is not a spirit with Down's syndrome. Just like Jesus said when asked who sinned the parents or the man who was blind and answered neither. The "thorn in the flesh" is not secondary to sin but to make manifest the works of God. The flesh is just a temporary stewardship, along with all the traits it carries both positive and negative. The body combined with the spirit upon resurrection will become unified and one and then together is the soul never to be separate again.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

(see previous post)

...also, don't confuse downward with backward. The fall brought us downward yet forward. Orson Whitney; “The fall had a twofold direction—downward, yet forward. It brought man into the world and set his feet upon progression’s highway.”

Bruce R. McConkie; "This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world. That death would be Adam’s gift to man, and, then, the gift of God would be eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thus, existence came from God; death came by Adam; and immortality and eternal life come through Christ. And thus, in Lehi’s precise and eloquent language, all men are in “a state of probation” because of the Fall. And “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden.” He was then in a state of physical immortality; meaning he would have lived forever because there was as yet no death. “And they [our first parents] would have had no children”; they would have been denied the experiences of a mortal probation and a mortal death; and it is out of these two things—out of death and the tests of mortality—that eternal life comes. But—thanks be to God—“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall.” "

If death is the process to move forward towards eternal life then how can it be a corrupting process? It isn't! It is the way to move forward, downward yet forward.

The downward part is overcome for everyone unless they don't accept it. Mosiah 3; " 18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." (emphasis added)

Men have to first "drink damnation into their souls". They have to make a choice to become like their natural (fallen) state. Then to take that away, the natural man has to yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit - that speaks to our spirit and become like a child. Children are not given the choice to "drink damnation into their souls" in the first place. They have not yet reached the age of accountability.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

I see a little bit of a problem - for example a thought obviously can be corrupt - and never turn to dust. Though things that turn to dust are corrupt a great many corrupt things will not turn to dust - for example Satan and his followers are corrupt but are not nor will they be dust.

Because of physical corruption we experience pain - because of spiritual corruption we experience sorrow. Through Jesus Christ we can rest from pain and sorrow. I believe children before they are accountable can experience spiritual sorrow - like the loss (even temporary) of a loved one.

This looks more like a definition of evil than corruption. Although the two are related and sometimes coupled - they are not as we say in scientific terms "tightly coupled" nor what we say in mathematical terms - equivalent. If there is a surge on my power line and the extra electrical power burns out and corrupt my hard drive or corrupts my computer memory - even though neither me, my power line nor my computer committed any sin or act of evil.

One possible definition of corrupt to me is that something of value that was once accessible is no longer available. Another definition is something pristine and beautiful in a place that will tarnish it. Faulty software in a computer - I believe defines a corrupted system. I try to keep a broad perspective.

I see the fall as a physically and spiritually corrupt situation. I do not see sin and corruption as always being the exact same thing.

The Traveler

If we rest from pain and sorrow at some point then it has an end, it "turns to dust".

Let me ask you this, are spirits in the Telestial Kingdom evil? Are they corrupt?

If your definition of corrupt is "something of value that was once accessible is no longer available" then how are spirits of children corrupt? All is available to them. They will enter the Celestial Kingdom and have all available. Your definition still does not hold for them. Their progress is not cut off, they have not turned from the way, all is still available.

What is the difference between what you are describing (we enter this world as corrupt, guilty of some sin or fault) and original sin? There is no difference.

Before Jesus gained full stature, was He corrupt? You are saying He was because He wasn't of full stature. Luke 2: " 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Your definition of corrupt would mean that Jesus was born corrupt.

I think that is the problem, you are trying to use a secular meaning of the word corrupt and apply it to the scriptures and doctrine. Corrupt is something less than holding onto the iron rod no matter what part of the path one is on. It does not describe the distance one has to walk on the path. If one is holding onto the iron rod even if they are still in the mist, they are not corrupt.

1 Nephi 8 ; " 23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.

24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree."

They went through the mist and nothing was lost!! Nothing was corrupted despite them going through the mist. Like Jesus said, corruption cannot produce good fruit. Corruption is something less than holding onto the iron rod while going through the mist of darkness. The body provides a way the mist is introduced but the spirit can remain unchanged by the mist of darkness by holding onto the iron rod.

To not comprehend our dual nature was the very reason the Law of Moses came around. They weren't ready for the law of the inward man. Once one puts that behind them then they can focus on working on the inward man. But the first step is to realize we are dual natures one battling with the other. Paul tried to explain this over and over again. Romans 7; " 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Being captive to the flesh is not the same as having a corrupted spirit unless one is "brought to it" meaning it becomes a part of their inward man. Paul is careful to describe two forces within him, one that would do good and one that would do evil. He doesn't say that both would do evil, which is what you are trying to say. He delights in the law of God after the inward man knowing that that is how we are judged, by our true spiritual desires, even if the body we currently have is corrupt. In other words, the direction we are heading is more important than the distance traveled because it is what is inside that matters the most, not the outer man, not the corrupted flesh.

The law of Moses was made for those that had a hard time understanding the difference between flesh and the inner man and so all was one. This is why they were required to do things like circumcision as they couldn't separate being born into a corrupted body from having a corrupted spirit. It was all one to them. They couldn't comprehend or abide by the inner man law.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

Hmmmmm - I did not see an answer to the question I asked. I will ask it again. Question: Is the inability to remember something that was once known, proof that such a memory is corrupt or has been corrupted?

The Traveler

The answer was given in the form of attempting to describe what I think "corrupt" means as it pertains to the scriptures and the doctrine we are discussing.

The answer given is that one description of "corrupt" is anything that turns to "dust". If the memories available are ones that are not things that will turn to dust, they are "treasures in heaven" then there is no corruption. If you have a better description of spiritual corruption, lets hear it (outside of just saying separation from God).

Jesus defines corruption this way; Matthew 7; " 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

If the spirit is corrupted by a lack of memory then it cannot bring forth good fruit according to Christ. The proof is in what it brings forth. It doesn't speak of when or how it became corrupted. We know that the spirits of children bring forth good fruit, not evil fruit even when their memory is not full as to the events of the pre-mortal world.

What to you is the difference between corrupt and "behind the veil"? Or is there a difference? To me, "corrupt" in this sense refers to desires for things that have no eternal value. It doesn't have to do with the quantity or magnitude or scope of the desire but more the quality of it. Pure gold is pure gold whether it is 2 oz. or 10 pounds. If we only have access to the 2 oz instead of the 10 pounds, that is corrupt to you? So in that sense, as it pertains to spiritually purity, a memory forgotten alone is not corrupt unless it is replaced by an earthly one or a turning-to-dust memory or explanation or feeling or desire. Children's spirits are protected from such impurities. They do not leave this world with spiritual impurities.

Even Jesus had to increase in stature amongst men and God while here. In other words, he had to grow up. Was Jesus' spirit corrupt then?

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

What is risky about thinking children start out needing the atonement of Christ? Thus focusing on the redeeming power of Christ (including his love and mercy - especially of little Children) rather than children under the law of justice not needing a redeemer. All your quotes say to me that children are not at risk - not because they are pure divinity but because of the atonement of Christ they are not at risk. Simple matter of what is the Gospel of Christ. Answer - The fall is overcome by the atonement. I do not think that teaching the possibility that someone may not need the atonement is part of the Gospel of Christ.

Simple rhetorical logic - if there is a claim that something is not corrupt - if anything (repeat for clarity - ANYTHING) can be shown to be corrupt then the claim of no corruption is false.

Question: Is the inability to remember something that was once known proof that such a memory is corrupted or has been corrupted?

The Traveler

Children who die before the age of 8 are not at risk. This is an LDS doctrine. They are not at risk because of the atonement. They need the atonement, there is no question. And because of the effect of the atonement they, their spirit, never become corrupted.

To answer your rhetorical question, somewhat, the scriptures tell us that there are things that are not corrupted. Do they exist? Yes. 2 Nephi; 9; " 51 Wherefore, do not spend money for that which is of no worth, nor your labor for that which cannot satisfy. Hearken diligently unto me, and remember the words which I have spoken; and come unto the Holy One of Israel, and feast upon that which perisheth not, neither can be corrupted, and let your soul delight in fatness."

How can we feast on something that is not corrupted if there is nothing that exists in our world that isn't corrupted?

The religious definition of corruption pertains to things that are not lost or that are not temporary like earthly traits and treasures. Our body turns to dust but our spirit lives on. This already throws the spirit into the non-corrupted category. Helaman 8; " 25 But behold, ye have rejected the truth, and rebelled against your holy God; and even at this time, instead of laying up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where nothing doth corrupt, and where nothing can come which is unclean, ye are heaping up for yourselves wrath against the day of judgment."

D&C 38; " 11 For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven—"

When one takes a test in school, often times it is a "closed-book" test and the chalk board is covered and one cannot discuss the answers with others in the class etc. Why not take the test with open book and discussing it with others? Because then the test is something other than a test of self, it might become a test of how well one gleans answers off of others etc. The test for the fund of knowledge and spiritual prowess was the first estate test. We all passed that test. Now we are participating in the closed book test, the veil covers our ability to obtain the answer without much effort. The test becomes one of integrity, are we going to do the things we are asked to do despite not being able to use all of our spiritual faculties. It forces us to either depend on Faith in Christ or things of the world, including or own physical body drives. It becomes a test of our true nature, what really is in our heart. That is accomplished through the veil. The veil blocks and limits and lessens but it doesn't corrupt. It lets a small part of our spiritual traits come through but that part is still us and will continue through thus not being corrupted. Just because it is a fraction of self does not make it corrupted but makes it "fallen".

I played soccer in college and I remember spending a lot of our time in little small two on two drills. It helped during the game to be a master of the small setting. This life allows us to focus on small stewardship so when we enter the world where everything is opened up we've had a chance to focus on the most fundamental traits, trust in the Lord. The separation related to spiritual death is the method to make the game smaller and focus on the fundamentals but does not make one corrupted or different as it relates to those fundamentals.

[re: Godly traits]

What trait is it that causes you to respect, trust, and admire someone's spiritual walk?

One of the most important to me is knowing that God's glory is bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. In other words, He takes glory and value in our success. I believe true happiness is when one can find joy in someone else' achievement. This is taught to us in that we depend on a Savior, we glory in His achievement.

The world tends to tear people down for their achievement. For example, we tax people at a higher rate the more money they make. People of the world find joy in the failure of others, this is what our daily news has turned into. Neighbors tend to feel jealous if a person buys a new car or builds an addition to their home instead of being happy for their achievement and success.

If we could all develop that trait of finding joy in the success of others this world would be a better place. I am glad our religion gives us opportunity to serve others and in the process we feel joy in their success. I was in the young women's program for 8 years and every year I see those that I had the opportunity to serve start to become young adults and it gives me great pleasure to know that they have done well. In fast and testimony meeting, I love to hear the testimony of those that express their joy in someone else success, I know they are truly walking that charitable Christ-like path. President Monson's talks tend to highlight a joyful experience centered around someone else's achievement.

[The Fall – Spiritual and Physical]

But the fall was more than just physical. There was a spiritual change to our individual spirits as well. This change is called the second death or the separation of the spirits of man from G-d the Father. This spiritual state is a spiritually corrupt or handicapped state that has two parts. Both parts are described as a spiritual separation from the light and truth of the Father. The first is a loss of citizenship in the society which is in the “presents” of the Father. Because of this separation we are exiled or excommunicated to a corrupt or handicapped spiritual state that requires, among other things, that we have a mediator between us and G-d the Father.

The second part of this corrupted or handicap spiritual state is described as a veil which separates us from all of our spiritual memories of our divine heritage leaving us in a spiritual state so corrupting to our knowing (having forgetfulness) that there is no knowledge of our previous divine condition.

The Traveler

Thanks for starting a new thread!

I hope I don't misdirect this thread.

My question as to your presentation of the issue would be, why are we equating spiritual death with spiritual corruption?

I guess this depends on what is meant by "corruption". To me, corruption is not just something made less than whole, it is a tendency to drive away from wholeness. A naturally corrupt entity would progressively move away from God, it would be an enemy to God. I don't see our spirits as such when we enter into this world. I don't see our spirits as naturally wanting to move away from God. Yes, we are spiritually cut off and bound but the direction our spirits desire to move is not in a corrupted direction. We are put lower on a lower rung but the direction has not changed. We are all born with the light of Christ which makes us naturally want to be like Our Heavenly Father. We are placed in a disadvantaged point temporarily without all of our spiritual faculties available but that does not mean the natural tendency of the spirit is to move away from God.

This has to be couched in the fact that while we are here we are dual beings both with a physical nature and a spiritual nature - there must needs be opposition in all things. The combination of the two makes up the soul of man and therefore while we are here the overall natural tendency of man is to sin, the natural man is an enemy to God. But keep in mind that is only when we are accountable and is speaking of the spirit-body combo, not just the state of the spirit alone. Like adding an odd and an even number the result is still odd but we are not going to call the even number 'odd'. The body's physical tendencies overpower the spiritual ones unless a person pays attention to the spiritual influences by remaining as a child humble and having a broken heart (the physical nature is subdued) and a contrite spirit (the spirit wanting to be like God through the feeling of remorse and penitence).

There are many examples (see the other thread) in which the apostles have stated that children who die before the age of 8 remain spiritually pure and have never experienced sin. We enter this life spiritually pure and clean but separated from God. I think there can be a difference between spiritual death but still alive in Christ, the light of Christ and therefore not corrupted but simply made lower or bound or as it is said in the scriptures "according to the flesh".

I am curious as to what specific doctrine would be at risk in your mind if the spirit was indeed pure upon entering into this world and stays pure through the age of accountability. What specific doctrine does that threaten and especially if it stays pure through Christ' atonement? What doctrine is threatened if little children receive a protected status, spiritually, through Christ' atonement?

We are warned, in fact, by Mormon to be careful not to think little children are corrupt. Moroni 8 : "8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me." and " 14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism."

It sounds to me that it is way more risky to think that little children start out "corrupted".

[Spirit, Life and Dark Energy]

Are you saying there are no spiritual consequences (disabilities) because of the fall - that all consequences of the fall are essentially physical - if not directly, indirectly?

The Traveler

You are probably going to have to explain what you mean by direct and indirect. I am assuming you are meaning immediate and in-the-end.

In the immediate sense yes, I believe in the second article of faith. We all enter this life spiritually pure. The spiritual consequences are secondary to our own sins and not from Adams transgression. It is only after the age of accountability is reached that there are spiritual consequences. And everyone who reaches the age of accountability sins. Sinning is, by definition, taking on carnal traits. As we give into carnal passions they can become spiritual desires. Or, they can remain separate. I cannot get rid of my carnal passions while in this life. I can endure them and try to overcome them with Christ's help and the direction of the Holy Ghost. Ultimately they are insurmountable by our spirits alone and so we need a way to be redeemed, through the process of repentance. Children, who never are given the chance to choose between carnal passions and spiritual ones also never have a chance to take on carnal passions, they remain with the body that turns to dust and will be raised incorruptible with resurrection.

D&C 18: " 42 For all men must repent and be baptized, and not only men, but women, and children who have arrived at the years of accountability."

Boyd K Packer; "Two doctrines misrepresent the status of little children. Each is widely accepted. Both are false!

The first holds that little children are conceived in sin and enter mortality in a state of natural corruption. That doctrine is false!

Each time a child is born, the world is renewed in innocence.

The revelations teach us that “the glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

“Light and truth forsake that evil one.

“Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God."

Merlin Lybbert General Conference April 1994 "The Special Status of Children"; "The Lord extends special protection to children and shares jurisdiction with earthly parents, even as we enjoy their presence. They cannot sin until they reach the age of accountability, which the Lord has declared to be eight years (see D&C 18:42; D&C 29:47). In fact, the power to even tempt them to commit sin has been taken from Satan. The prophet Mormon taught that “little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin. …

“Little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!” (Moro. 8:8, 12.) ... Because all children who die before the age of accountability are pure, innocent, and wholly sin-free, they are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven (see D&C 137:10; Mosiah 3:18). Understanding the special status of little children before God, because of their pure and innocent nature, brings understanding of the Lord’s commandment to “repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in [His] name” (3 Ne. 11:37). The childlike qualities the Lord had reference to are developed by yielding to “the enticings of the Holy Spirit,” so as to become “submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.” Truly, such a person “becometh a saint” as spoken by Mosiah (Mosiah 3:19)."

Where the spirit goes after death, either paradise or spirit prison depicts how the spirit was affected by this world. Children go to paradise, remaining in their pure and innocent nature as adult spirits. So, what do you think is the consequence of the Fall to those spirits?

Don't you believe in the second article of faith?