Seminarysnoozer
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Posts posted by Seminarysnoozer
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Awesome! I was going to do some research on this today myself. This saves me a fair amount of time. Was certainly what I would have presumed, and had I drawn a personal conclusion in my previous post it would be this.
One thought, in the Joseph Fielding quote the phrase, "...all the blessings will be theirs through their obedience..." has some interesting implications.
...because being "like a child", by definition, means obedient.
Yes, and the key point being that they will have a chance to be married for eternity, receiving all the blessings of those found in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.
My speculation is that the majority of those found in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom are those that die before the age of 8.
President Eyring explains that to be like a child means to be obedient. Those two things cannot be separated. There is no such thing as a disobedient child in the eyes of the Lord. President Eyring (April 2006) As a Child; "Here is King Benjamin’s stirring description of what that change to become like a child is and how it comes to us:
“For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.”
From King Benjamin we learn what we can do to take us to that safe place. But remember: the things we do are the means, not the end we seek. What we do allows the Atonement of Jesus Christ to change us into what we must be. Our faith in Jesus Christ brings us to repentance and to keeping His commandments. We obey and we resist temptation by following the promptings of the Holy Ghost. In time our natures will change. We will become as a little child, obedient to God and more loving. That change, if we do all we must to keep it, will qualify us to enjoy the gifts which come through the Holy Ghost. Then we will be safe on the only sure rock."
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Not sure how you can claim both of the above are correct.
One way to have both correct is to understand that "man" is the combination of a physical body and a spirit son or daughter of God. Adam is the first man, the first to be a spirit son of God combined with a physical body. Death (physical death) is the separation of those two things, the spirit and the body. No death could take place before that time without there being a spirit and mortal body combination.
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A really appreciated this post. Every so often a comment really makes me think and this was one of them.
I'm not sure it really means much as to plural marriage numbers/men to women ratio for two reasons, however. The first has been pointed out. Just because the birth ratio is 1:1 now doesn't mean it will stay that way. China's discarding of baby girls has been mentioned, etc. So as much as I do think what you are saying is fairly reasonable, it certainly isn't a set-in-stone forgone conclusion that it means what you think it means. :)
The second thought, and where it really made me think, is that we actually don't understand how child deaths (under age 8) works in relationship to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom at all. We just don't have complete revelation on the matter. What we do know:
- Baptism for children under 8 is not required. (Moroni 8)
- The reason it is not required is because baptism is a redemptive ordinance and young children need no redemption being unable to sin. (Moroni 8)
- Current church policy is that children under 8 only need one ordinance to take place, only in the case of not being born in the covenant, whereupon they should be sealed to their parents. No other ordinances are required.
- Exaltation (highest level of the Celestial Kingdom) requires marriage. (D&C 132:17)
- Marriage ordinances must take place in mortality. (D&C 132:16)
I am not going to draw any conclusions from this because we just don't know, and I feel it would be improper to draw any conclusions. But it did sure get me thinking.
Marion D. Hanks of the presidency of the seventies said; "Some may never have an opportunity to marry in this life. However, the Lord’s prophets have taught us that all that is beautiful and lovely about eternal partnership and family life will be available sometime, and with joy we cannot imagine here, to those individuals who endure to the end in Christlike living."
This was in a discussion about single adults but I would imagine it would apply even more so to children who die before the age of accountability.
Mossiah 15:25 " 25 And little children also have eternal life."
Bruce R. Mcconkie said when asked if little children who die before the age of 8 will have eternal life? said; "Eternal life is life in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is exaltation; it is the name of the kind of life God lives. It consists of a continuation of the family unit in eternity. We have quoted scriptures saying that children will be saved in the celestial kingdom, but now face the further query as to whether this includes the greatest of all the gifts of God—the gift of eternal life. And in the providences of Him who is infinitely wise, the answer is in the affirmative. Salvation means eternal life; the two terms are synonymous; they mean exactly the same thing. Joseph Smith said, “Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else.” (Lectures on Faith, pp. 63–67.) We have come to speak of this salvation as exaltation—which it is—but all of the scriptures in all of the standard works call it salvation. I know of only three passages in all our scriptures which use salvation to mean something other and less than exaltation.
Abinadi said, “Little children also have eternal life.” (Mosiah 15:25.) Joseph Smith taught, “Children will be enthroned in the presence of God and the Lamb; … they will there enjoy the fulness of that light, glory, and intelligence, which is prepared in the celestial kingdom.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 200.) President Joseph Fielding Smith spoke very expressly on this point: “The Lord will grant unto these children the privilege of all the sealing blessings which pertain to the exaltation. We were all mature spirits before we were born, and the bodies of little children will grow after the resurrection to the full stature of the spirit, and all the blessings will be theirs through their obedience, the same as if they had lived to maturity and received them on the earth. The Lord is just and will not deprive any person of a blessing, simply because he dies before that blessing can be received. It would be manifestly unfair to deprive a little child of the privilege of receiving all the blessings of exaltation in the world to come simply because it died in infancy. … Children who die in childhood will not be deprived of any blessing. When they grow, after the resurrection, to the full maturity of the spirit, they will be entitled to all the blessings which they would have been entitled to had they been privileged to tarry here and receive them.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:54.)"
I don't think there is any question about children who die before the age of 8 being able to marry.
- Baptism for children under 8 is not required. (Moroni 8)
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This is an interesting thing to consider, however. The fact that God has foreknowledge, which we know He does, does not mean we lose our agency.
Unquestionably, God knows exactly who will and who won't make it to the Celestial Kingdom. He may well know that there will, actually, be more women than men. That does not mean men are less righteous or, rather, less capable of being righteous, but it may be a simply truth.
You are absolutely correct in pointing out that being male of female has absolutely no bearing on our chances for salvation. God is no respecter of persons in this regard. We have all been given the same chance, freely.
In 2012 6.6 million children died under the age of 5. That is just in one year! 18,000 die per day!
I think, relatively, the numbers of male and female righteous in the Celestial Kingdom are not going to be made up by those that lived full lives. The full life righteous will likely be a small percentage of those that find themselves in the Celestial Kingdom. With those numbers, the ratio of men and women is not going to be far from 1:1 as even if women are "more righteous" we are just talking about those that live full lives (or at least past the age of accountability).
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From the published definitions of agency:
from LDS doctrine - D&C 93:30-31
As long as we act within that sphere in which G-d has placed us we are his agents and G-d is our proctor. This is in part why Jesus was able to take upon him our sins. As I understand LDS doctrine there are two ways to become agents unto ourselves. #1 Is to reject that sacrifice through which Jesus took upon him our sins - then we become agents unto ourselves and responsible for all our deeds.
#2 Are the individuals that are made free to act according to their power as Celestial beings.
The Traveler
I get mixed up when you talk about this, Traveler. I wonder if you (or me) are trying to separate the definition of "agent" from "agency". Is an agent one who has agency? Or are they not linearly related?
Just talking about "agency" alone; When we sin we lose agency, we lose the agency that is given to us as a gift in starting this life and even before. It is ours to lose, in other words.
“With regard to the rights of the human family, I wish to say that God has given unto all of his children of this dispensation, as he gave unto all of his children of previous dispensations, individual agency. This agency has always been the heritage of man under the rule and government of God. He possessed it in the heaven of heavens before the world was, and the Lord maintained and defended it there against the aggression of Lucifer and those that took sides with him, to the overthrow of Lucifer and one-third part of the heavenly hosts. By virtue of this agency you and I and all mankind are made responsible beings, responsible for the course we pursue, the lives we live, the deeds we do in the body” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, 8–9).
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“Free agency is the impelling source of the soul’s progress. It is the purpose of the Lord that man become like him. In order for man to achieve this it was necessary for the Creator first to make him free” (David O. McKay, in Conference Report, Apr. 1950, 32).
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“Man’s greatest endowment in mortal life is the power of choice—the divine gift of free agency. No true character was ever developed without a sense of soul freedom” (David O. McKay, Man May Know for Himself: Teachings of President David O. McKay, 80).
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“The Church teaches as a strictly scriptural doctrine, that man has inherited among the inalienable rights conferred upon him by his divine Father, freedom to choose the good or the evil in life, to obey or disobey the Lord’s commands, as he may elect. This right cannot be guarded with more jealous care than is bestowed upon it by God Himself; for in all His dealings with man He has left the mortal creature free to choose and to act” (James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, 52).
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Let me preface everything I have to say with the point that my intent is not to be contentious, but to explore the ideas.
I completely accept that God says we will have ALL that he has. It will be a full sharing of glory, and happiness. This particular theory has no problem accepting our God as the billionth in a line since god zero. I agree where anyone falls within the overall geneology of the infinite eternal family has no bearing on the godliness of said being.
I too see no problem with God having parents. The point of the theory is to explain the concept of god's origins. The trouble with infinite regression always being, "where did His parents come from?" One possible explanation is that somewhere in a chain of events hard to understand is that one god came to be without parentage. How? we don't know... I mean even if this theory were to hold up we step it up to the question, "where do the intelligences come from?" Eventually we either need to accept that God simply is, or is not.
No argument here. Our Heavenly Father was a man. As for every single God that came before Him, we don't know... but it does seem fitting that all gods were once mortals as we are.
Again these points all hit at the crux of the matter. If God was once a man... how did a man once become god? We sure don' know. Somehow it happened. It is against the commandments for us to have incestuous relationships, however in the time of Adam and Eve there was no other way and provisions were made so that it was okay. Perhaps special rules apply during seasons of origin.
You gave excellent answers and I hope I don't detract from what you said.
I think one of the pivotal concepts in this discussion is the possibility for inheriting ALL. Without that concept, God has to be the so-called "God-zero". Inheriting ALL means taking on everything that the Father has, in that there is nothing lost or diminished in it's glory or importance as if the person receiving the inheritance is the one who did it in the first place. Once one can appreciate that concept then it is perfectly acceptable that our Father in Heaven at one point was not "God-zero" but now is.
To be "one" with God and Christ is based in the idea that the 'sum of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts'. Christ taught this lesson so many times, 'a house divided cannot stand', (Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand), "if ye are not one ye are not mine", "that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me", etc.
We understand the definition of "one God" in the verse D&C 20; "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen." Obviously, "one God" can involve more than one individual and as the Lord's prayer suggests it can involve us too, that we may become "one". How?, by inheriting ALL that God has.
In other words, the growth to having ALL requires unity and the combination with others. By definition, it cannot be obtained individually. We, individually, do not have that potential. The "acorn" that turns into the tree, has to have Christ like traits, which is to love others as self (becoming one with others).
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The problem with this theory is that if one intelligence could do this, then any other intelligence could do this as well, which would mean that there is potentially no need for God to save us. The we could, of ourselves, take on a physical form and achieve perfection without going through the test of mortality and the grace of Christ. This is false. We know it's false. No intelligence can achieve exaltation without being granted it.
The reason that this is not true because the only way to do this is to develop Christ-like attributes, it requires the ability to empathize with another to the point of being able to obtain experience vicariously. One's ability to obtain vicarious experience is dependent on one's ability to have the pure love of Christ, the ability to empathize and really know someone.
If God inherited all that His Father had, that would require that God knew His Father completely. To know someone that well requires love, empathy and charity. Without those characteristics a person is left to learn on their own. That is what Satan wanted. He couldn't give into the idea that in order for him to have all that the Father has he would have to submit to His will. He would have to admit that he couldn't do it by himself. Satan still tries to deceive people that they could do it on their own, that was his argument in the premortal world.
Eternal progression is based in being connected, in an intimate way, to all those in the Celestial Kingdom to the point that any of their advance is shared. Like sharing a single bank account, as soon as one adds their name to the account, all that was done before is theirs as if it is their own and always has been. This is why this life is a test of faith, love and willingness to submit to the will of God. To whatever degree a person cannot do that, they will fall short of inheriting all past experience and will have a limit to their progression.
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I looked for another thread on this topic, but I couldn't find one. If I missed it, apologies.
A couple weeks ago in sacrament meeting, a member spoke about how paying a tithe on contingent income resulted in the income materializing; the couples' faith resulted in a blessing from God. After church, my fiancée* told me that she didn't like the testimony at all because she felt it was transaction. That is, if we act a certain way, God will reward us in a specific way: investment leads to profit. She prefers the view that God loves everyone equally.
On the one hand, I see what she means. The idea that a specific action we take makes God respond in a certain way makes God seem like an ethereal bookkeeper and not God. On the other hand, scriptures seem pretty clear that following ordinances and rules means that God may answer our prayers in a literal, meaningful, sense that He may change circumstances (1 Nephi 17:35 "he that is righteous is favored by The Lord" or D&C 29:6 "Whatsoever ye shall ask in faith, being united in prayer according to my command, ye shall receive.")
So my question for you all is pretty simple: How do I reconcile these two things? Are we simply wrong on the first, or is there more to prayer and asking God's favor that I just don't realize? I'd like to assure my fiancée that prayer isn't simply transactional, but I fear that that may actually be the proper view.
Related to this is volume of prayer. I very much dislike that idea that a famous person receiving thousands of prayers will be healed because of that volume whereas a poor, unknown person will not be healed because she only received five prayers.
I myself am stumped. I don't want to believe that volume of prayers would result in a change that a smaller number would, but it seems likely that being obedient and faithful means that God may bless us with material blessings.
Having said that, in my own prayers the only time I feel warm and that my prayers are good is when I am saying thanks for everything in my life. I tend not to ask for much other than for a testimony whether the Book of Mormon and Church are true.
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*You may recall that we have not yet been baptized. We have a ward calling but are still pondering.
How we do something is just as important, if not more so, than just doing it.
D&C 58; " 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned."
The person who does it with a "doubtful heart" still keeps the commandment but "the same is damned." Obeying the commandment of tithing with a hopeful heart certainly is not "doubtful".
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I've heard the notion of "redemptive suffering", where the more you suffer, the greater reward. I've also heard the notion that you can suffer and someone else gets the reward. I pretty much reject both notions.
But that's probably not what you were talking about.
I'm also mindful of folks with various disorders such as depression or crippling anxiety, where sometimes it just isn't possible to feel joy or happiness due to some chemical imbalance in the brain or unresolved trauma. I don't think that "oh, you'll be much happier later because of what you're going through now" is a helpful thing to say to someone, nor do I necessarily think it's true.
But that's probably not what you were talking about either.
I do believe that I'm more able to appreciate and enjoy many things in life, due to hardships I've endured and resolved. I think that may be what you're talking about.
I think the thing that is missed is realizing that God and Christ have vicarious power. Christ was able to take on our suffering. Appreciation and enjoyment can certainly come in the form of vicarious experience. Christ didn't have to commit the sin to understand its magnitude and to empathize with the repentant.
When all things are made known and we can learn of all things, that will also include past experiences by others. We don't have to reinvent the wheel to use a wheel. I don't have to pass through the hours and hours, years and years of hard work and discovery that went into developing this computer I am using to enjoy its benefits. Likewise, not everything we enjoy in this life or the next is 100% related to our individual effort. This is why when we enter a Kingdom of glory it is an "inheritance", as opposed to a "reward" or a "payment". Inheritance implies obtaining something that wasn't earned by the direct efforts of that person, it is made available through someone else' efforts. The overcoming of all opposition is part of that inheritance, or at least, can be.
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2 Nephi 2:11
Obviously all things of opposition must continue to exist. For example, do you really believe that darkness will no longer be a possibility in opposition to light?
I think your confusion in this matter is not understanding "Agency". It is because of our agency that Christ as the proctor of our agency can take upon him our sins. Thus since he has overcome opposition as the proctor of our agency - opposition will still exist but under his control.
If we become agents unto ourselves then it will be up to us to control our opposition. But if you think about all this - those that obtain the Celestial Kingdom may serve in the capacity to help and assist as g-ds and with the G-d head to preserve those of lesser glory from opposition.
The Traveler
2 Nephi Chapter 2 is clearly talking about the law for "man" and for "flesh", which it mentions several times before verse 11. So just responding to the statement with that scripture did not answer the question.
Is agency intended to be a road with no end? Is agency an end unto itself?
Even if I don't see it clearly, I think Enos did; "And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. And I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. "
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I think the purpose of this life is not so different from our eternal life (even a type and shadow of such things) and that purpose includes experience integrating the physical with the spiritual. I honestly believe that trying to force and maintain a separation of the two will not result in joy. Anyway that is both my experience and my understanding of scripture. Bringing the two together and integrating the spiritual and physical like at the birth of a child - I have experienced the greatest joy in the mortal life - that I believe was created and planned for our joy and happiness. Yes, joy in the eternities but also in the here and now. I believe this bringing together of the spiritual and the physical is what is termed in scripture as an awakening.
The Traveler
I think what you are describing is mastery over the physical but maybe that is just semantics.
I don't think in any of my discussion I mentioned trying to force a "separation" of the two. They are separate, that is a doctrinal fact, at least for this life. The issue is which one of the two masters we follow. We can't serve two masters though, even as much as you would like it to be that way. The harmony comes when the spiritual influence supersedes the physical drives. It is a matter of allowing us to show where our treasure, where our heart's desire lies. Is it with carnal pursuits or spiritual ones, and to what degree. While here, it often is not an all or nothing thing. Understanding where the drive comes from (and maybe that is what you are calling "forcing the separation") allows us to make a correct decision between carnal and spiritual drives. If it is all one, then one does not have the ability to discern.
“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” (Rom. 8:5–6.)
Paul taught over and over again that it is important to be spiritually minded over being carnally minded. He didn't say we should be 50-50% minded; 1 Corinthains 2: "14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."
Jesus taught this principle to Martha and Mary, representing the perspective of carnally minded verses spiritually minded; “And a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
“And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word.
“But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
“And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
“But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.” (Luke 10:38–42.)
I think it is hard to argue against Jesus' statement "one thing is needful." It isn't forcing a separation but making a choice of the heart, a statement of where the heart is, carnal vs. spiritual pursuits. Martha had a hard time seeing the difference between the two - maybe she thought there was no difference.
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I'm wondering if greater joy and happiness are built on increasing sorrow and pain.
The scriptures teach:
"For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad."
"And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet"
John Taylor related this comment from the Prophet:
"You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and (said he) God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God."
Brigham Young said of Joseph Smith:
"that he suffered more in thirty-eight years than many men could in one thousand; that loosing one thousand hounds on Temple Square after one jack-rabbit would not be equivalent to the "boiling over" of opposition he faced from his boyhood; but that he was more perfected, more sanctified, more glorified because "every wave of Adversity only wafted him that much closer to Deity."
As a parent, I know that much pain and suffering comes from watching children make mistakes, but that experience makes their successes all the more sweet.
Does God experience more (vicarious) pain and suffering than any other being because of what He sees and understands, but does that pain and suffering enlarge his joy when men repent and progress ?
We sometime think that eternal bliss is our goal, but are we really in for more opposition, pain and suffering (in the next life) as we seek to become more like the Savior ?
Where does it say that "opposition in all things" continues through the eternities and is not just something that occurs in mortality?
Doesn't Christ overcome all opposition for us in the end? What does He not overcome?
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I am not sure I understand you terms - because of the evolution (word entomology) I am thinking that the concept of integrated is a better description than dual. The way dual is being used implies that the two must be separated and the physical limited and discarded - but I contend that the two - the physical and the spiritual must be brought together in order to understand divine things.
· 3 Nephi 28: 10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;
· Doctrine and Covenants 93: 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy.
· 34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.
· Psalms 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
If the trick is to turn off all that is physical then this life could not a possible path to divine things. But by practical experience we know that the physical greatly dominates - so much so that all things spiritual can be droned out in the din. Thus the physical must be disciplined by the subtle influences of the much less obvious spirit. The fact is that the Scribes and Pharisees took the direct understanding of scripture to justify their interpretation. But no interpretation of scripture is correct without the addition of revelation - once again bringing to bear the concept of integration rather that separating into separate parts by thinking in terms of dual. I submit that there is not a single physical pleasure that by its self will not become corrupt but if integrated as taught by the spirit will be enjoyed for eternity - See Psalms above.
The Traveler
I think you need to consider the difference between the mortal body and the resurrected body.
We were talking about mortality. You are giving references to after mortality. We can't apply what is intended to happen in immortality to mortality in this sense. The resurrected body is way different from the mortal body. Unless, again, one does not think the Fall was much of a fall.
I agree with what you are saying as it pertains to the resurrected body but that is not the situation we find ourselves in right now.
When one takes a final exam with a question that reads something like; "Johnny leaps from a 40 story building, he pulls the rip cord from his parachute after passing 10 floors. How fast is he going at the point of pulling the rip cord?" One would not take it to mean that there is actually a person named Johnny who leaps from 40 story buildings. Nor would one assume that they will ever in their future life expect to need to calculate the exact same situation - a guy named Johnny jumping from a 40 story building, even though it may be a good test question for a basic physics class. It has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with giving a test.
Likewise, this life is a test. It is not intended to be an exact road map for the eternities. It is a preparatory state. It, therefore, does not include all the parameters needed for the fullness, for perfection, in the same way a final exam does not contain all the information learned in the class. Our mortal body does not have a completeness of all the parts needed for integration. It is a body that allows for separation, to be a dual being, for testing purposes. Like a driving school car that has two steering wheels, this life is a test to see who we let drive the car, our spirit or the drives from the body itself (carnality). If we pass the test well, then we will get the "car" with the single steering wheel.
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SS:
It is not so much the information but the conclusion that you draw and the points you choose to emphases. And it is not that the points you draw or conclusions you make are wrong and should never be emphasized - just that I see things on a broader spectrum or scale. I think your concepts are too focused and narrow. A prime example is the concept of a dual nature. Like Newtonian physics can explain a great deal about what we understand and observe in our physical existence - the concept of the dual nature of man explains a lot about our spiritual / physical conflicts. However, such concepts limit understanding and leave gaps in specific observations and experiences.
Categorizing all things physical as corrupted evil and all things spiritual as pure G-dly perfection limits the joy and beauty that can and should be enjoyed in this life and fosters a variety of false doctrines that historically resulted from such extreme thinking as Gnosticism.
There is a saying that to a hammer everything looks like a nail. What this is trying to explain is that if a hammer (dual nature) is the only tool one has to understand all the things they perceive - they will try to use the only took (hammer) at their disposal to address their world concept - which is unfortunate when other more effective tools are available for certain purposes - especially to the Saints of G-d that have access to so much more.
Likewise the principles of stewardship are valuable and so are the principles of agency. The concept of stewardship and agency, for example, explain a great deal of the atonement and why our sins “can” become the debt of G-d. But as you have pointed out so many times - stewardship and agency does not explain the fallen states of children (and others) that suffer and/or die before they are capable of being justly accountable to stewardship or agency. Obviously from such a perspective something is missing (unexplained) from such observations and considerations of justly accountable and justly achieved in the final judgment.
The Traveler
I appreciate your comments. Thank you.
I agree with what you are saying here. The problem is that we have no ability to see the shades of grey and the variables. That is left for God to judge the specifics of any individuals circumstances and variables that we cannot perceive.
The dual being concept is not mine. It is a theme throughout the scriptures and our gospel and I think Paul, especially in Corinthians spends a lot of verse on that topic; spiritually minded vs. carnally minded; grace vs. works; Jesus son of God and man; being both Jew and Christian, etc. Starting with Genesis we learn that man is not meant to be alone.
The combination of the body and spirit makes the soul. I realize you would rather just talk about the soul but to me that is over simplified. As Elder Bednar explained, that is the primary battle we face here on Earth, to distinguish the source, to discern.
The pharisees lacked this ability to discern between fleshy things and spiritual things; Jesus explained: John 8 "12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man."
The spiritual mind is one that looks beyond the flesh and sees the bigger picture. The narrow mind is the one that cannot distinguish the two. The pharisees did not understand the spiritual Jesus, they just saw the man before them.
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Wondering if you are quoting this correctly and in the proper context - Are spirits actual and real “things”?
Is your spirit here on earth?
Are you a steward of your spirit or is it your spirit?
The Traveler
I am not sure how I could quote it incorrectly. Go to LDS.org and type in "steward". You will see, word for word, what I quoted. There was no alteration of the definition. There was nothing left out of the definition except at the end it had "(D&C 29:34)".
I think what you are trying to ask me is if I interpreted the quote in the proper context. Maybe?
And that is exactly why I followed that with Elder Bednar's talk. It draws the line pretty clearly.
Our mortal body is a temporary thing, I can't see how you would see it any other way. Yes, we can obtain a resurrected body. But, this is exactly why I started this whole conversation with, it depends how far you think we have "fallen". If one considers our state as hardly different from the pre-mortal state then I can see where someone would suggest that our current stewardship (mortality) is reflective of self in some kind of linear way. But we know that is not true. We have fallen very far. We know that the spirit that occupies the Down Syndrome body is pure and remains perfect and will be perfected with a celestial resurrection. And yet the Down's syndrome body is very flawed. We have fallen so far that we hardly can even imagine our premortal state. We have fallen so far that it takes a Savior to pull us out of this state.
I go back to the metaphor of a final exam. The exam itself does not contain all the information but is intended to reflect the whole of the material tested. Mortality, also, was never intended to be a complete whole of the material available but just a piece of the overall final exam. For some it is just "extra credit" as they pass right through mortality without really having to take the test - all those that die before the age of 8.
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Just wondering if you see any contradiction in any degree in your previous posts? Do you believe children were created with a fallen nature and are subject to the pull of sin - or are children born innocent and without any subjectivity to the “pull of sin”?
The Traveler
As you know and as we have discussed many times, I believe we are dual beings. The spirits of children are innocent and remain so until the age of accountability. God will take into account all the variables that we do not see. If it were not so there would not be scriptures that say things like, where much is given much is required.
Of course, I believe in the restored gospel that says pretty clearly; D &C; " 46 But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;
47 Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me;"
I am not sure why you are asking that.
Could they be innocent and yet inhabit a fallen, corrupted body? Yes! Again, we are dual beings. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. I am not my body, neither are you. It is just your stewardship. We become accountable for the body, to do the best we can with what we are given (where much is given much is required) but my fallen body does not define me anymore than a spirit who was given a body that has three chromosome 21s. We all have fallen bodies that are not linearly related to our spiritual stature and yet are individually given as specific necessary stewardship. Some people adopt their physical traits as their self identity over the course of a lifetime, which is unfortunate. We should not put our heart on treasures that turn to dust.
This reminds me of Elder Andersen's talk in 2011; "Those who follow the game of rugby know that the New Zealand All Blacks, a name given because of the color of their uniform, is the most celebrated rugby team ever. 3 To be selected for the All Blacks in New Zealand would be comparable to playing for a football Super Bowl team or a World Cup soccer team.
In 1961, at age 18 and holding the Aaronic Priesthood, Sidney Going was becoming a star in New Zealand rugby. Because of his remarkable abilities, many thought he would be chosen the very next year for the national All Blacks rugby team.
At age 19, in this critical moment of his ascending rugby career, Sid declared that he would forgo rugby to serve a mission. Some called him crazy. Others called him foolish. 4 They protested that his opportunity in rugby might never come again." ... "A mission instead of a place on the New Zealand All Blacks team? Sid responded, “The blessing of [bringing others] into the gospel far outweighs anything [you] will ever sacrifice.”
This discussion also makes me think of the parable that Christ gave: " 45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it."
Whatever attributes our worldly pride tempts us with, they are nothing compared to the treasure in heaven. The pearl of great price is worth the price of all we have, including our body.
And as Elder Bruce Porter says (Oct. 2007); "As we make the sacrifice to Him of all that we have and all that we are, the Lord will fill our hearts with peace. He will “bind up the brokenhearted” (Isaiah 61:1) and grace our lives with the love of God, “sweet above all that is sweet, … and pure above all that is pure” (Alma 32:42). Of this I testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen." (underline and bold added, of course - but not out of any context, it is the end of his talk)
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The point that seem obvious to me is that a physical body is 100% necessary for perfection. As important is spirituality is - by itself, that which is spiriual cannot ever be perfection. The failure to balance and appriciate and enjoy the physical (man is that he might have joy) will fail.
The Traveler
The child that dies on hour number one of life certainly does not "balance" or "enjoy" their mortal physicality and will certainly not "fail". (I left out appreciation because I am sure they appreciated the opportunity to receive a body before and after.) A physical body (a resurrected body) is 100% necessary for perfection but don't mix that up with a mortal/fallen/carnal body. The resurrected body is none of those things. The failure to be a good steward which includes working with the "talents" our mortal body provides will result in failure.
According to LDS.org; "The Lord condemns infant baptism (Moro. 8:10–21). Children are born innocent and without sin. Satan has no power to tempt children until they begin to become accountable (D&C 29:46–47) so they have no need to repent or be baptized."
Also according to LDS.org; Definition of steward; "A person who takes care of the affairs or property of another. That which a steward cares for is called a stewardship. All things on earth belong to the Lord; we are his stewards. We are accountable to the Lord, but we may report on our stewardship to God’s authorized representatives. When we receive a calling of service from the Lord or his authorized servants, that stewardship may include both spiritual and temporal affairs."
Thus, our body is not our "property". It is simply an attitude thing. All things related to the body, including personality, talents, traits etc. is not our property. It is only our stewardship. We want to be good stewards over this stewardship so that we can have GREATER responsibility. Matthew 25; "21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."
Satan's trap is for us to fall in love with the "few" things and try to make them our own, like the unjust steward. To realize this stewardship (our body) is not ours, it is not our property, is necessary in being a faithful servant. If we claim it as our own, like the unjust steward, we will fail. The fallen body (mortality) is a test. The test is necessary for those who live beyond the age of 8 and are held accountable for mortal choices.
It would be narrow minded to think that a final exam for a class contains all the information learned in the class. The final exam is just a sampling of key points of everything learned during the class. A final exam is not intended to be a complete and whole expression of all the information and therefore itself alone is not perfection. During the final exam, all the text books are closed and the chalk board is covered. All information is not directly available but what is remembered (i.e. - spirituality). The body provides a way to test the spirit.
Elder Bednar said it very clearly in April's conference; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. "
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You will have to help me with the scripture that states that those that did not keep their first estate was because they "did not have enough faith that they could be brought back from the fallen state and thought it too risky." I think you are reading in a little extra here that is not in scripture.
Not sure what you are trying to say - in my view Satan best deception is to attempt to convince his victims to be undisciplined. It is not our carnal desires - it is allowing our carnal desires to take us outside the bounds that G-d has specified in his law of chastity.
Sorry I am a little confused - I do not believe we take on the body or the blood of Christ but rather that we eat in "remembrance" of the body that was broken for us and drink in "remembrance" of the blood what was shed for us. I believe we will do whatever is recommended however regularly it is necessary to remember Christ when we have a Celestial body as much as we are so asked in this mortal existence.
I believe the essence of being Celestial in eternity is taught symbolically in principle through the ordinances of the priesthood in this fallen state.
The Traveler
I might have to address the First estate thing later, not enough time tonight.
As far as the Sacrament, of course it is symbolic but I think it is important to realize why there is symbolism related to the flesh and blood. Why not just take on His spirit, or His love, or His way, etc.?
As it says in Gospel Principles; "Our Savior wants us to remember His great atoning sacrifice and keep His commandments. To help us do this, He has commanded us to meet often and partake of the sacrament.
The sacrament is a holy priesthood ordinance that helps remind us of the Savior’s Atonement. During the sacrament, we partake of bread and water. We do this in remembrance of His flesh and His blood, which He gave as a sacrifice for us."
Christ is our great example. He gave of His flesh and His blood and we are to remember this as an example. I don't think it has to be any more clear than that.
D&C 98 " 13 And whoso layeth down his life in my cause, for my name’s sake, shall find it again, even life eternal.
14 Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy."
Romans 12, Paul explains " 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."
Abraham was willing to give his son (which of course is just his earthly body, not his spirit) as a sacrifice.
Alma 24 :" 18 And this they did, it being in their view a testimony to God, and also to men, that they never would use weapons again for the shedding of man’s blood; and this they did, vouching and covenanting with God, that rather than shed the blood of their brethren they would give up their own lives;"
By Elder Hamula; "Understand, my young friends, that there is only one way to win the war against Satan, and that is to win it in the same way it was won in the beginning. When victory was finally achieved in the War in Heaven, a loud voice was heard to declare:
“Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ. …
“For they [referring to Michael and his angels] have overcome him [referring to the devil] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death.” 24 Do not miss the significance of this declaration. Satan was overcome in the beginning by (1) faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice, (2) testimony of Him that was steadfastly kept to the very end, and (3) consecration of oneself to the Lord and His work. If this was the means for defeating him in the beginning, you can be sure that this is the one sure way to defeat him now."
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Not sure why you are saying this - those that thought this to be true in the pre-existance were cast out.
Again I am not sure you are thinking this through. See Moses 5:11
By the very definition of carnal - one cannot have "seed" without carnal desire. What you may be missing is understanding carnal when corrupted and misguided in direct association with being sensual and devilish. But I contend that the desire to create life through "carnal desire" within the guidelines of marriage is sacred, holy and necessary to become "like G-d". Another term for this is the New and Everlasting Covenant.
The Traveler
I am not sure why you are saying that ... those that passed the first estate test, all of us, knew that this life was not permanent, that we would have a Savior to take us back from this fallen state. Those that failed the first estate test did not have enough faith that they could be brought back from the fallen state and thought it too risky.
Those that believe the Fall was not that far tend to believe that we are very similar to our pre-mortal self and our post-mortal self. Those that realize the Fall was a great distance, one that can only be traversed by a pure Savior, realize that we are currently WAY different than our pre-mortal and post-mortal self. One of Satan's best deceptions is to get us to believe that we are carnal, that that is who we really are.
There is a difference between principles and doctrine. There is doctrine for this world, to help us through this world which are necessary for us to become like God in the sense that we pass through this world without becoming carnally minded. For example, do you think we will need to take on the body and blood of Christ every Sunday like we do here for the eternities, after one has received a Celestial body?
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My uncle has a theory that I find interesting and is along these same lines. It goes something like this:
Kolob is where the earth was when it was the Garden of Eden but when Adam and Eve transgressed and all things changed the earth was removed from Kolob and put in it's current place and state.
His theory is that when all is done after the Millenium, the earth will be changed to it's paradisical glory, becoming the celestial kingdom, and will again be in Kolob which is next to God (I'm not sure how that ending goes exactly).
Any thoughts on this?
If that is the case then the Earth and all its matter changed from one type to another and there would be no physical evidence of it ever being of another type (as we don't have any understanding of "fine" matter). In other words, that completely takes it out of any big bang type theory or other studies of the universe available to us now. ...which is fine with me.
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I am sorry Seminary but I think you are trying to make a point from a positional viewpoint that is 180 degrees out of sync with the eternal struggle to make us perfect and like G-d.
First you ask a question about “my body” – which could apply to any person. Considering semantics – if I am a steward then it is not mine and if it is my body then I am not just the steward of it. I am more connected and invested as the owner. For the point of discussion I prefer according to my understanding to think of the body I use in this life is a gift to me which I have earned in part and to which I am personally invested. Therefore the better I take care of “my body” the better the investment will be for me. I do not think my treatment of my body can possibly diminish anyone else but me.
Secondly you characterize our body as being imperfect and our spirit as being perfect. I am convinced that you have it all wrong and that the truth is in reality just the opposite. Being that our body is perfect and it is our spirit that is imperfect. Our body is perfectly designed and is without flaw in any way. It is 100% complete and perfectly designed to benefit us for all things eternal. It is a perfect fit for what our imperfect spirit needs to progress to a higher more noble understanding and enlightenment. Our perfect body is perfectly and uniquely suited for each individual spirit in order for that spirit to develop any and all that is necessary for an eternal and glorified perfect being. If there is any failure or imperfection it is not the physical body that fails to fulfill it perfect design but it is the flaw in the spirit being that has taken possession of the perfect body to learn and acquire what it needs.
My point is most important for our imperfect spirits becoming perfect. Rather than blame G-d for an imperfect body that is destroying our possibilities we should rightfully thank G-d for this perfect gift that will bless every spirit that receives their perfect opportunity. We need to realize that our body is perfect for us and a perfect blessing for our imperfect spirit that can become perfect from our perfectly designed body – perfectly for us.
The Traveler
We shouldn't be "invested and connected" with things that turn to dust. There are aspects of the body that can be made eternal by participating in the new and everlasting covenant. Upon resurrection we will receive a new body which will be as different, if not more so, as the difference between Adam and Eve's body before and after the Fall. The "perfecting" aspects related to this body come in the form of being able to forsake the body, the ability to not give into carnal desires.
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I remember about 20 years ago talking with one of my lecturers and she said that scientists were starting to think that the big bang theory might not be accurate!
This may sound like a dumb question but what does this have to do with LDS doctrine?
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Often I hear the expression, "No one is perfect".
I have pondered this declaration and have come to the conclusion that it is in truth misleading.
Point #1. We were and are "perfect" creations.
Point #2. Our intended destiny is to be (end up) perfect - thus the scripture Matt 5:48.
Point #3. We can only become imperfect by choice and deliberate effort. I submit that this point is in complete contradiction to the "no one is perfect" attitude. Rather every one is perfect unless they - of their own choice - they become imperfect.
The Traveler
Do you consider your body as "you" or a temporary stewardship? Does the unjust steward claim his stewardship as his own?
When we choose our imperfect body over our perfect spirit, that is the process of becoming imperfect. When we choose to make worldly things our treasure, which includes the stewardship of the body and all of its traits, then our heart is focused on worldly or carnal things. Being carnally minded is the process of becoming imperfect, whereas being spiritually minded leads to perfection. The first step is to realize that we are dual beings in this life and we should remember who we really are, sons and daughters of God, not sons and daughters of man.
I don't think we should confuse a temporary state with who we really are. In a temporary state, even Christ had to increase in stature amongst man and God. Christ gave up His temporary state to reach salvation. He turned away the carnal things, turning stone to bread, fame etc. Following Christ's example, the process of perfection is to turn away carnality for our real self and to not claim our carnal self as "perfection". Matthew 6: " 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
Ultimately, our perfection is what we want for our spirit. Dust will turn to dust. Paul couldn't get rid of his imperfection, his thorn in the flesh, and neither can we. It wasn't intended that Paul make that perfect, even when he asked that it be. But "we" are not our body, this is just a temporary stewardship. If we keep our spirit pure and perfect then the body we receive in the resurrection will match it's level of perfection and then we become perfect.
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The priesthood is an power-of-attorney given to man by G_d to act on G_ds behalf. It as a great deal of functionality to act in G_ds behalf here upon the earth.
Fore-ordination would serve no purpose if the priesthood could be used in the same capacity in the preexistence. It is given to mortals to bring to pass to covenants that G_d, the father, made to the righteous of remnant of the house of Israel. It is in that capacity that the priesthood is bound and to that purpose.
The priesthood could not have been given to a person in the preexistence for the purpose of fulfilling those covenants. The covenants that G_d that father made with the righteous remnant of the house of Israel, through father Abraham, can only be accomplished here upon the earth, where the covenants are to be fulfilled.
What point is there in those covenants being fulfilled in heaven?
There is an instance in the Book of Revelation were authority to act here upon the earth is give to twelve individuals while in heaven, it can be found in the book Revelation:
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads (Rev. 12:3)
The twelve individuals were not given the priesthood. It is interesting that they received their authority to act before they were given a title to their office. The the ten horns that are identified with them were given their authority when they were given title to the their office:
1 AND I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (Rev. 13:1)
The ten horns did not receive the priesthood.
I do not know what occurred to allow the twelve heads to be given authority (Rev. 12:3 does not give the information). However, the authority given to them is for the purpose of bringing forth the covenants that G_d made to the righteous remnant of the house of Israel.
The primary difference may simply be that of whether or not one is to receive the priesthood.
You don't consider the passing of the First Estate as a covenant? Didn't we, as part of passing the First Estate, agree with God that we would come here to be tested and if we do what we said we would that we could have a chance to be with God again? That isn't a covenant?
Also, I never said they were the same capacity (priesthood authority). The comment was related to the priesthood power that Adam and likely others used to assist in the construction of this world. Did they have it (in any capacity) or not? If they had it, in any capacity, how did they get it?
And now, infinite regression has me up till 2 in the morning...
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Just to emphasize a certain point, to be "one" means not only to be of one mind or spirit but to also posses all that the Father has. The story of the prodigal son points this out clearly. At the end of the story, the word "all" is used; " 31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine."
Cross reference "all" and this is what we get; D&C 84:38 " 38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him." (all that the Father has can be given to anyone who reaches that highest Kingdom) ... and that "all" cross referenced brings us to; 3 Nephi 28: " 10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;" (people that reach that level shall be like Christ, one with the Father) ...and D&C 78 explains that the whole plan of Salvation is to be equal in all things, this is the lesson He is trying to teach us and the test is to see who is okay with being equal in all things; " 4 For a permanent and everlasting establishment and order unto my church, to advance the cause, which ye have espoused, to the salvation of man, and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven;
5 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.
6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;
7 For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you."
The glory of the Father is dependent on His sharing of the glory. The glory of the Father would be nothing if it was independently held. The Father's hope and Christ' hope is that we be "equal in the bonds of heavenly things." This is why charity and faith are so important, to allow us to "prepare" ourselves for that kind of life, where everything is shared. Or, we could chose a life of not sharing and not being equal, like one star differs from another.