[Can't believe that God isn't eternal]

...and obeying God's commandments is one of the few things he expects us to do "on our own." The spirit does guide us and offers aid, but ultimately it is up to us.

When you say there is nothing to figure out, I say that that is ridiculous. God gave us an entire universe to study and to figure out... If the conclusions we come are off, well then, that is part of the experience of life, isn't it? Life is full of joys, and so long as we don't over indulge ourselves, or lose our perspective, then we are free to enjoy the good (or the bad) in life. We are here to see if we are willing to obey, not specifically to obey. It is our choice whether to do so or not. We are not puppets, we are God's children. IF we are willing to obey, then we will do so, if not, well then... I don't want to get into that, as it is off topic.

...Again, being righteously independent does not mean that we are without thankfulness or obedience. Your emphasis on those particular lines puzzles me, as I cannot see how they contradict what I say, because in my eyes there is no such contradiction, provided the independent person is righteous. Following God's commandments is a consious choice of our own free will, hence why we can be independent, yet still rely on God.

Those who don't rely on God suffer the lack of the benifits that come with not having the Spirit.

I say it again, on Earth, we are as little children, hence why such guidance is necessary. I do not dispute that we need guidence now. Verse 18 up above would support my notion that God is aiding us because we are not yet ready to bear "all things" on our own, and hence the emphasis on relying on God. The blessings referred to are many and we SHOULD be grateful for. As stated before, being independent does not necessarily mean that we are ungrateful. Said blessings are varied, some come naturally as a part of life, others as conditions for following the commandments and doing God's will. But in the end, it is our independent choice that determines whether we follow God or not.

God cannot truly help us, except we decide to accept said help, and that choice must be our own. He may be leading us, but it is our own decision whether or not to follow and that decision is what must be made on our own. In the end, it all boils down to whether we willingly accept God's aid of our own free will and on our own, or whether you discard his help and try to struggle through life on our own.

As for learning, I only agree with you partially. Faith and obedience are the best way for learning, but there are stipulations. The faith and obedience are part of a personal and independent action, based on the commandment given by God. Heavenly Father said to "study [a problem] out in your mind" and come to your own conclusion, then ask God if the conclusion we arrived at is correct, which he will then confirm or deny. Thus, it is my opinion that with this statement, he is emphasizing us to try to solve the problem ourselves, but be WILLING to accept aid from Heavenly Father by asking for confirmation.

As for the "Inheriting all things" being the opposite of "figuring things out", I would disagree. In life, you can inherit something, without knowing how to use it properly. Since we do not know what life in the Celestial Kingdom will specifically be like, I would not jump to conclusions that we would instantly gain all knowledge. Such a thing in my eyes would seem to be too easy. I have noticed that Heavenly Father expects us to work for things, so why should I expect anything different in the Celestial Kingdom? Inheriting God's attributes and creations, I would imagine, would require quite a bit of work even after we reach God's presence again. Since that is the case, it only seems logical, at least according to the current trend, that we would continue to learn bit by bit, line upon line, precept upon precept, what we need to know in the Celestial Kingdom, and in a similar but more refined manner to which we learn here on earth: After we being taught a parable or lesson, He would expect us to "Studying it out in our mind" aka, trying to "figure it out ourselves," until we are able to come to a conclusion. Then we ask him if the conclusion is correct, and he will use that opportunity to teach us further.

"Study it out in your mind" how much of what you know came from you. One can learn from others. Learning does not have to be based in one's own trial and error.

Yes, one can learn from trial and error but we are told that it is better to obey without having to be prompted. If one has to try A before choosing B and finds that choice A was not good because there were bad results by choosing A then that is a choice based in prompting, trial and error. As opposed to listening to someone who knows better and says, 'choose B'. If choice B is chosen because one is listening to the spirit then there is no trial and error, it is simply based in faith and it doesn't require proof. It is done without the proof.

One of the bad results of the attitude of "figuring out for one self" is that credit for success is given to self. That is what Satan wanted, all the glory for himself. He didn't want help, he couldn't swallow the idea of depending on a Savior, giving glory to someone else. But his ideas were false. Dependence brings glory, that is what is implied by statements like "an eye single to the glory of God" and "love your neighbor as your self". We can't save our self by our self. That is why I put those verses in about thankfulness, etc.

Most everything we know in this life came from someone else. Someone else developed the words we are using now. I learned from my parents and teachers growing up. I learn from listening to the spirit. I learn from reading books that someone else wrote. I benefit from their learning and developing the computer I am now using. All of these things were inherited and so my thanks goes outward not inward for that associated learning. God knows all. One is not going to discover something new that God has not yet known. There is no need to "figure it out" as it has already been figured out. The benefit in discovery for man, behind the veil (not having access to all the things we learned before) is in showing where we put our faith, in the teachings of man or of God. It shows our hearts desire. Where we put our time and effort and faith is part of the test more than the actual factual content of what is learned.

[Can't believe that God isn't eternal]

After thinking about what you said, I have reasoned the following below:

1.Satan's way was worse than what you stated: His way is doing all that he can to take away your agency.

2.I would suggest that "Doing things on your own without [the need for] God's help" isn't the devil's plan, but rather what Heavenly Father ultimately has in mind for us. The problem comes across when pride kicks in, as it too often does. Instead of saying "I think I can do this without help, but if it turns out I need it He is there to aid me..." Like it is supposed to be, our thoughts become "I DO NOT need ANY help whatsoever! I can do this ALL BY MYSELF!" Notice the difference in emphasis and wording, one is humble, and acknowledges that God can help him, while the other is prideful, and says that he can FOR SURE do something without any aid and by his own power. The second is the temptation of the devil. One acknowledges Heavenly Father's aid, the other puts everything to the power of man.

Now that I have said that, I also add that Heavenly Father is willing to help us, and indeed does what he can to help us. However, even with this support, he expects us to be able to do things on our own. He may add some background support, and lend us the Spirit to help us with our own decisions, but in the end, a portion of the effort is up to us.Just because we are supposed to be depending on the Lord doesn't mean that he wants us to rely on him for everything 100% of the time. He won't hand everything on a silver platter to us, because that would hinder our progression. Yes, He created us, and yes we need to be humble, and because he is our Father, we DO owe him everything and we need to be grateful for that and recognize the blessings that he does give us. However, because he is our father, and because the model of a family is based on the model of Heavenly Father's family, that means that I can draw certain parallels between our life now, and what our life may be like in the Celestial Kingdom.

Heavenly Father expects us to be able to do somethings on our own. Such is the purpose of growing up, and part of natural progression. You assumed that I meant that we would be doing things completely on our own. No, far from that...

3.In fact, let me use a simile to help illustrate my thoughts a bit better:

In this life, we become independent of our parents. That doesn't mean that we are completely alone, or that they are not providing advice or encouragement. What it just means that what direction we take, and the consequences we have to deal with everything is up to us; We no longer have training wheels, and we are no longer being coddled. Our earthly parents will still provide aid and advice as we need it, and as we ask for it, but it is ultimately up to us what we choose to do with it, or even if we accept the help at all.

Such a thing is logically similar to what God would have us be, although it is probably not exactly the same thing. He wants us to have the capacity to function and be independent. However, we are still as little children to him. Right now, we are still in the stage of "you can make some choices, but if you fall I will catch you" kind of stage. We have not yet grown into full "Adulthood" yet, and I would suppose that can only fully come to pass in God's presence, with an immortal body, and with the proper training and authority necessary to assume the role of a creator.

4.I wasn't saying that we shouldn't be humble, and willing to ask for His help. There are times when Heavenly Father expects us to do stuff on our own, to "study it out in our minds" first, before asking for help. This implies that he expects a certain amount of independence from us, yet still wishes for us to ask him for help when needed, like any good earthly parent would. Why should we expect anything different in the Celestial Kingdom? In our mortal life, things weren't handed to us on a silver platter, and I am confident that in our first estate things were not easy either. Because of this, I think it is safe to assume that things will not be easy in the Celestial Kingdom, especially since once we get there, it will only be just the beginning of our real learning. Becoming a world-builder is no easy task, I think, and Heavenly Father ways of teaching are found in the scriptures. He tells us what we need to know, and only the bare minimum at that, then he tells us what we are supposed to do, and lets us "study [the problem] out in our minds," and/or test our hypothesis, if you will, before he will confirm or correct it. Only after that, will he give us aid and instruction. He wants our minds to grow, and what better way than to let us "figure things out". Of course, he will give us guidance, of course we won't do it alone, but he ultimately wants us to have the capacity to be independent. That doesn't mean that we shake off all his influence, rather it means that we fulfill his desire for us to become like Him. And that particular statement mean a whole lot more than we give it credit for.

In the end, What I am really trying to say is that even in the Celestial Kingdom we are still progressing... to what? If we are perfect, and one with Heavenly Father, then what left is there to accomplish as far as our own progression is concerned? He is raising us to be like Him, which means exactly what it says: fully developed and independent creators, that share in his glory. Right now we are still children in the eternal sense, and as such we are still under his direct care. It will probably quite a while before we become fully developed, and until then, I think that we have quite a lot to learn.

I hope that I was able to add something to this conversation.

The reason to "study it out in your mind" is to help us come to the conclusion that we cannot do it by our self. It is to have the ability to discern between the carnal and the spiritual more clearly so we know which one to follow.

And my point is that there is nothing to "figure out". All one has to do is obey. We are not here to "figure it out". By definition, that is looking for proof or a sign. One can learn by faith and obedience. That is the better way to learn. Especially when one believes that everything that comes from God is truth. Like what was said in conference this weekend, there is such a thing as intellectual bondage. It is part of the passions verses spiritual reason that Elder Nelson talked about. One can have carnal passions for intellectual or secular learning which leads to bondage as one strays away from true doctrine by depending on their own carnal intellect. Spiritual promptings will not lead one astray. To receive spiritual promptings one has to put away the idea that they could do it on their own.

Mosiah 2; " 20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth arequire that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you."

D&C 78; " 17 Verily, verily, I say unto you, ye are little children, and ye have not as yet understood how great blessings the Father hath in his own hands and prepared for you;

18 And ye cannot bear all things now; nevertheless, be of good cheer, for I will lead you along. The kingdom is yours and the blessings thereof are yours, and the riches of eternity are yours.

19 And he who receiveth all things with thankfulness shall be made glorious; and the things of this earth shall be added unto him, even an hundred fold, yea, more.

20 Wherefore, do the things which I have commanded you, saith your Redeemer, even the Son Ahman, who prepareth all things before he taketh you;

21 For ye are the church of the Firstborn, and he will take you up in a cloud, and appoint every man his portion.

22 And he that is a faithful and wise steward shall inherit all things. Amen."

What does "inherit" mean? It is the opposite of "figure it out" on your own.

[Can't believe that God isn't eternal]

Robert Jordan and JRR Tolkien would have a blast creating their universes! I could see a Lord of the Rings universe being created right now...

I bet Heavenly Father would be doing quite a bit of laughing and/or face palming if those two made it up there.

_______

But seriously...

If I was an author (Which I am aspiring to be), I would totally recreate one of my fantasy worlds...

More as a way to get used to the new abilities and to figure out how everything works, but also just to see how everything would turn out.

I mean, I cannot think how much work went into the current laws of reality. Imagine trying to create a new one, and with a comprehensible magic system to boot! Now that is a challenge...

Eternity would be pretty boring if you had nothing to do...

and creating your own universe would be something to pass the time, help you learn, and prepare for the time when you want to enable your Plan...

__________

Warning... Personal Speculation initiated...

I think that Heavenly Father spent quite a bit of eternity just trying to figure things out. After all, if you have that much power and authority, it would probably take a while to learn how to use it.

Then he probably spent quite a bit of time developing and refining the Plan of Salvation, probably learning from his own Father, and consulting with his brothers and sisters as well, before he even created our spirit bodies.

At that point, He probably was ready to put his plan into action...

_________

Mind = Blown! I can't even imagine how much effort an eternity's of work would cost!

Nope, things are done as they have always been done. One eternal round. No need to "figure it out". The pathway to Eternal Life is well mapped and planned. If He "learned from His Father" then who's plan was it?

Doing things on one's own, without help, without a Savior is Satan's way. Humility is required to receive Celestial glory and to be like God. Elder Nelson commented yesterday about the reasons behind having dual natures in this life, so that we learn to depend on the Lord.

We have already spent an "eternity" in the presence of our Heavenly Father. We all passed the first estate test as mature spirits.

When a person can rejoice in the success of others, they will never be "bored" and their joy will be endless. This is probably why God's glory is not in the "figuring out" but in the bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. This is also why we are told to love our God and secondly love our neighbor as our self. That is required in order to enjoy the success of others.

[Can't believe that God isn't eternal]

We are NOT of the Savior lineage, but we are of the lineage that can become Joint-Heirs with the Savior. Abraham and Sarah are examples for us as we seek this reward.

Where did you get this idea? If Jesus is our brother then we are of the same lineage. Do you not believe that Jesus is our brother?

D&C 93; 21-22; " 21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn."

All those who are faithful members of the church of the Firstborn will have the same glory as Christ. Christ acted in our name, vicariously. That does not diminish the act because it was done vicariously. A sealing done vicariously in the temple if accepted by those who passed is not anything less than those who did it while here for their self. Likewise, all that Christ has done can be ours too, as He did it for us. The same applies to God and the inheritance He received. If He had a Savior, an eldest brother, and He was faithful in the church of the Firstborn, then He becomes the same as the Firstborn as if He did it Himself. Then, rightfully, Jesus could say that 'I only do what I see the Father has done.' Because there is a Union, as you mentioned, it does not have to be done by all of us but by one. If we break the union, by disobedience, then we cannot receive it. Obviously, God didn't do that, He remained faithful, whether He was the Firstborn or a faithful member of the church of the Firstborn, it is the same.

The Sacrament itself is a symbol of taking on His flesh and blood, to remind us that He did this vicariously for us. If we internalize what He did, then it is equal to what He did for Himself. We take on His flesh and blood, there is no different lineage.

[A question about doing]

I think there is a disconnect - there is no blessings from G-d without obedience to the law (see D&C 130:21). This requires that the law is in force (covenant) and that one is obedient.

I believe you error in thinking that only this life counts (for children and others that die before accountability) towards blessings - Alma Chapter 13 clearly points out blessings were obtained prior to mortality by "exercising" faith. Coupled with D&C 130:21 - we can understand that passive faith is not actually faith. Until one acts (does something) faith is not exercised - it is the exercise of faith that brings blessings.

The Traveler

Like I said before, I am not arguing the fact that faith without works is dead. They have to go hand in hand. Just because I am saying that Faith is the first principle doesn't take away the need to exercise faith. "Exercising" faith may be as simple as stating one's faith or enduring through trials. For example, I have a friend in our ward who had a disfiguring injury to her face and torso when she was young. She has faith that one day she could have an eternal marriage even though, despite her remaining faithful in the gospel and attending various activities and meetings, has not been successful in finding a husband. I have a belief that she will not be deprived those blessings because she has faith in the Lord and desires that blessing, even if she never does marry. After the test of faith, after the veil of this life is removed, she will have a chance to find a mate who may have been in similar circumstances but because of their faith are given the opportunity to receive the blessing despite not doing it here or any time during their probationary state.

That, in fact, is the benefit of faith, you don't have to prove it to yourself. I don't have to prove that fire would burn my skin. Belief is good enough for me. I don't have to prove that drinking alcohol is not good for me. Having faith that the word of wisdom is true, is enough for me. And, yes, I am exercising faith by my abstinence, but the point is that the lesson doesn't have to be proven by the action, I believed it strongly the moment I started to live the word of wisdom. The lesson may be solidified after the action but it was known before any action.

As Richard G. Scott said; "If you are single and haven’t identified a solid prospect for celestial marriage, live for it. Pray for it. Expect it in the timetable of the Lord. Do not compromise your standards in any way that would rule out that blessing on this or the other side of the veil. The Lord knows the intent of your heart. His prophets have stated that you will have that blessing as you consistently live to qualify for it. We do not know whether it will be on this or the other side of the veil. But live for it. Pray for it."

[Can't believe that God isn't eternal]

I believe it was Lorenzo Snow who first said, “As*man*now is,*God*once was;*as God*is now*man*may be.”

It's my understanding of LDS theology that God was once a man in another planet or universe and became God only through obeying His god.

I have trouble accepting this. I mean, isn't God supposed to be THE Supreme Being? I always understood God as that of which nothing is higher. But if he was once a man, doesn't that mean there is someone or something greater than God? It also reduces Him to a creature, someone who was once made. Isn't God supposed to have no beginning and no end?

Is it wrong that I consider myself a somewhat faithful Mormon yet don't believe that God is an exalted man?

We believe it is possible for man to inherit all that God has. All means all. There is only one way to inherit all that God has and not diminish anything He has or lessen Him by any of us having it and that is if it is shared. Covenants allow us to share. We share responsibility and also the glory that comes with it via the covenants. The sealing power allows us to share the success of others.

If there is one bank account that has been around forever and I add a person to the bank account then that person does not own more or less than anyone else on the bank account and they now own the full history of the bank account, all that was put in before their name was on the account. By being a part of that bank account, the person can claim ownership to all of its history and future. Similarly, reaching that level of the Celestial Kingdom is a process of inheritance. What is inherited? All that was done before, as if it was their own.

Also, as stated, man is a dual being both physical and spiritual. When comparing man to God, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. What aspect of man are you comparing, the part that turns to dust?

[A question about doing]

I believe that doing something is the result of faith. As you have pointed out - people having faith in different things can be involved in similar activity. But speaking of the temple activity I will use the example of Adam offering sacrifice - when he was asked why he offered sacrifice he could not answer the question correctly - he only offered sacrifice because he was told to.

It has been my observation that to obtain faith - we start by doing. Note in your example how some say they will believe with a sign? These are people that will not do anything - thinking belief and faith comes first.

In your example of the Pharisees - Jesus never criticized their works - it was their attitude he criticized. He said they would have reward for their actions but not eternal rewards - their reward was what they wanted - to be recognized for doing the works. What amazes me is that many - say they believe and do not even the works of the Pharisees thinking they will have the greater reward??? But in eternity we find that at the judgment day we will be judged according to our works. Works are only an expression of faith - so by judging one's works so also is one's faith manifested and judged. Regardless of how poor a home teacher is that visits only because they were assigned - they will receive a greater home teaching blessing than the home teacher that does not visit - even if such a home teacher attends church every week and thinks to have great faith. There are no blessing for what we should had done and don't - regardless of our attitude or what we think is faith.

The Traveler

We all expressed our faith in the plan and in the Lord as part of the first estate test. So, as far as what came first the chicken or the egg? Faith comes first.

There are many examples of people who will obtain blessings for actions they did not do and solely based in faith. For example, all those that died before the age of 8. Also, if one desires to have an eternal family and has circumstances in which they cannot obtain it in this life, even though they desire to do so, will not be deprived of that blessing for their inability to do. God will judge based on the desire of the heart far more heavily than works, for sure, no question in my mind about that. If they could have done it and don't, I agree, they will be judged on that. The blessing that is predicated on that particular law is not based in the action but the obedience and the desire to obey. The test is to see if we will do the things that we expressed faith about in the first estate test. First we had faith in the plan, NOW we show that we will do what we said we would.

[A question about doing]

I also believe the first step towards righteousness is discipline - to deny self. ...

Pay tithing starting now. Do not worry about if your spirit is right or if your motives are acceptable. Put aside you uncleanliness from not paying tithing and discipline yourself now to pay a tithe moving forward.

Maybe I am not following you correctly but it seems to me that you are changing your tune. You first made statements like these (above). Now you seem to be agreeing that faith is the first step. So, what is it for you? Faith in the Lord or do without having faith first?

The "motive" is defined by faith in the Lord.

I am trying to find that story where there was an interview of three people working on the Temple. One of them said they were just pounding stones, another said they were making so much money an hour and the other responded, I am helping building the house of the Lord. They were all doing the same thing but they all had different motives about what they were doing. Christ looks at the inner man and not just the outer. Like the example of the statement to the Pharisees I gave in this thread, doing alone without the right reasons is not fruitful. It will lull people into thinking all is well when they aren't really working on the right things. This life is a test of faith, not a test of knowledge. It is not a test of whether one can put all the square pegs in the square holes in a logical manner, it is a test of whether the person will do what the Lord says to do, whatever that may be with an eye single to the glory of God.

We can both argue that faith and doing are important, I wouldn't disagree with that. What the discussion about is whether the doing alone could lead to faith. It may, but obviously in the case of the Pharisees and many other examples it is not a sure thing. They did the things and never developed faith. Whereas, if one first works on faith and then does, then that is holding onto the iron rod and walking down the narrow pathway. The discussion is about whether there is a difference between faith preceding the action verses doing the action and hoping that faith comes. I don't think we want to promote the idea that seeking a sign, or proof that it works is the best first course of action.

[A question about doing]

The only certainty that I understand is that if someone does not tithe their income; thinking they are following the spirit - there is without question something wrong. The question of this thread concerns a question about doing. My point is - yes doing is an integral part of G-d plan. There is a possibility that if someone is trying to keep the commandments that they are doing what G-d has asked for the wrong reason. But if they are not doing as G-d has commanded in keeping the commandments there are no caveats - they are wrong. So how does someone get started?

My suggestion is that if someone desires the spirit to guide them then the only course towards G-d is to keep the commandments. Only after they have determined to try the commandments by doing is the spirit able to direct them in the finer spiritual points - because if they are not keeping the commandments there is no possibility that the spirit can or will lead them anywhere. I think this is what Alma is trying to say in his symbolic suggestion of planting a seed to see if or what grows.

The Traveler

What you are talking about is the process Alma explained is the way to turn faith into a perfect knowledge. And he explained that once faith turns into a perfect knowledge there is no more faith. This process comes after the first principles of the gospel has worked in the hearts of the people. This comes after a person has lived the gospel in faith for a period of time but not necessary for salvation. Believing (not knowledge) is the first step. The belief is obtained through the spirit. Faith in the Lord is the seed. Alma teaches it is better to believe first through faith as opposed to having knowledge.

Alma 32; " 16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe."

Elder Hales; "Believing in the Savior and His mission is so essential that it is the first principle of the gospel: “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 What is faith? In his epistle to the Hebrews in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul taught that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” 2 And how do we gain faith? How do we gain evidence of our Savior, whom we have not seen? The scriptures teach us:

“To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

“To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.”"

Like Alma teaches, we do not want to put ourselves in that category that teaches anything like having to know first; " 17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?"

[A question about doing]

Thanks for your response, it is very good. I don't think having an "eye single to the glory of God" requires a master understanding or some level of learning before one can say they are keeping their eye single to His glory. I think the phrase is very similar to hold on to the iron rod, or stay on the straight and narrow. There are not varied pathways to that end. There is only one way. It is not done in our way or our own time or method but His way and that is the only way. We cannot serve God and Mammon. This life is a probationary time to see who we serve and to what degree.

The only process required is to listen to the spirit and follow. It doesn't require a great understanding of where and why, just follow.

[A question about doing]

It is not that I disagree with "an eye single to the glory of God" as a term - except that I fine the term ambiguous. I believe that the scriptures use the term ambiguously by design - but often I believe the term is referenced in discussions in a manner that is touched upon in Isaiah 29:13 to justify things by argument that confuse rather than bring understanding. For example what is the difference in paying tithing with a eye single to the glory of G-d and paying tithing without a eye single to the glory of G-d. Especially when one believes (or argues) that as mortals we really do not know and cannot know what the full extent of the glory of G-d actually entails.

The Traveler

Having an "eye single" to His glory is not to have an idea of what it is more than where we give credit. If one does it for self reward then it is not single. Having an eye single to the glory of God is the opposite of what Satan did, who wanted the glory for himself. Not having an eye single to the glory of God is called Priestcraft.

Marlin Jensen of the seventies teaches; "As I have searched the scriptures in recent months for guidance in my new calling, I have become aware of the importance to our eternal welfare of our motives, our desires, and our attitudes. I speak of one of these today: the necessity of performing our earthly labors with “an eye single to the glory of God.” (D&C 4:5.)

The temptation to seek personal recognition and reward from our service to others is ever-present. The pattern was established in the pre-earth life by Satan himself. There, when the Father explained His plan of salvation for the inhabitants of this earth and the need for a redeemer, Satan responded by saying: “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.” (Moses 4:1.) In contrast, Christ showed us for all time that God’s work is to be done with an attitude of Thine, not mine. Said He: “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.” (Moses 4:2.)

Those who seek honor and gain for themselves in doing the Lord’s work are guilty of what the scriptures call priestcrafts. Of this sin, Nephi stated: “Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.” (2 Ne. 26:29.)"

[A question about doing]

I hear a lot in church meetings about doing.You know, the checklist that every good church member mentally checks. My question is: Is doing enough? Is doing what we are asked to do by The Lord through his chosen leaders enough for us to gain salvation or, is there more to it? Anything thoughts and or feelings would be appreciated.

"Doing" doesn't count for anything unless it is done with an eye single to the glory of God.

Luke 11: " 37 And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat.

38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

41 But rather give calms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

The "love of God" or doing things with "an eye single to the glory of God" needs to accompany anything we do. ... it isn't just going through the motions like the Pharisees.

[What do LDS believe heaven will be like?]

I was a little taken aback by the idea of work in the afterlife when I heard it in Gospel Principles. Don't Mormons ever get a chance to rest?? I know I don't want an eternity of singing Hosannas to HF, but I'm not sure about working in heaven either.

The Lord's rest is from the turmoil we find in this world. D&C 84; " 24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his danger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory."

This kind of "rest" has nothing to do with labor, it has to do with the pull we have towards the natural man. When we die we leave behind the natural, corrupted body unless one has internalized that nature into their spirits, then it stays with them. This life is a probationary period, it wasn't meant to last. It has an end, so we will rest from these conditions.

Per Malm of the Seventies; "To find rest unto our souls includes peace of mind and heart, which is the result of learning and following the doctrine of Christ, and becoming Christ’s extended hands in serving and helping others. Faith in Jesus Christ and following His teachings give us a firm hope, and this hope becomes a solid anchor to our souls. We can become steadfast and immovable. We can have lasting inner peace; we can enter into the rest of the Lord. Only if we turn away from light and truth will a hollow feeling of emptiness, like the tree’s, occupy the innermost chambers of our souls, and we even might attempt to fill that emptiness with things of no lasting value.

In view of our existence as spirit children before we came to earth and immortality in the life hereafter, this earth life is indeed but a very short moment.

It is, however, a day of probation, but it is also a day of opportunities when we choose to follow the invitation to not waste the days of our probation (see 2 Nephi 9:27). The thoughts that we dwell on inside our minds, the feelings we foster inside our hearts, and the actions we choose to take will all have a determining impact on our lives, both here and in the hereafter."

[What do LDS believe heaven will be like?]

oh wait, wait, wait...hold on...

what kind of soup?

Red Pottage - see Genesis 25

[What do LDS believe heaven will be like?]

I'm not some punk child, I have dated since I was 15 and have hated every moment of it. Now near 10 years later, it is no better-almost worse.

I don't have male friends, not anymore. I had female friends and was never as close to them as my former male friends, I think a lot of them feel you are trying to sleep with them.

And a lot of men are that way.

Life, my short life, has shown to me, what I think, is an ugliness in humanity-the majority of humanity.

I also don't understand humanity, by and large, but there are reasons for that, I know those reasons.

I have already got everything I can understand from women (sex), everything else (say love) is a total mystery to me and something, it seems, I don't think exists. At least for me.

I'm not bothered by it all, it's just how my brain works. How I think.

I think you said it well there, "it's just how my brain works." Realize we are dual beings, both body and spirit. The test is to see which one we succumb to, the influences of the body verses the influences of the spirit? The brain (part of the body) is corrupted from the Fall of Adam. It is carnal in nature which presents us with that option of carnality. Do we fall in love with things carnal or things spiritual? That is the test. Would we rather have the temporary pleasure of the bowel of soup over the eternal inheritance? It's a tough choice while here, but that is what makes it a stratified test. It is not a yes/no test, it's a test of gradation - to what percent did we pay attention to body influences over the spiritual ones?

[What do LDS believe heaven will be like?]

What do LDS believe heaven will be like?

That is one of the purposes of living the gospel, to give us a taste of that most precious fruit. It is outside of our comprehension. Even the lowest Kingdom of glory is beyond our comprehension. The manual "Gospel Principles" last chapter is titled "Exaltation", you can find that on LDS.org, gives a good description of "heaven" with references to scriptures including D&C section 132:19-20.

[Doctrinal And Scriptural Mastery]

How important for our salvation is mastery of gospel doctrines and the scriptures? Has the emphasis on this changed in the Church since I joined in 1963?

D&C 46: "11 For all have not every agift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.

12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby."

What is important for one's salvation is personal and should be directed by the spirit. The bottom line is to do what the Lord asks you to do.

But as warned in that chapter; " 8 Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived aseek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;

9 For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a sign that they may consume it upon their lusts."

Scripture mastery has to be done with the right purpose, to edify the saints, not for a sign or to "know" (as in secular proof or a sign) the gospel is true but to strengthen one's faith and teach others.

[Comment from coworker]

Since I am not LDS, I can answer from the non-LDS perspective. I believe families are essential on earth because of sin. A family offers comfort, protection, and companionship that we need to survive. A family provides the environment needed to raise children. In heaven, there will be no sin and suffering. There will be nothing to be protected from, no need for comfort because there will be no discomfort, and our companionship with everyone in heaven will be perfect, so we won't need covenant relationships like marriage to keep people tied together.

It is different than your beliefs, but I hope it explains the idea in a way you understand.

Thanks for sharing. Our beliefs are almost 180 degrees opposite of this idea. We believe that we are given a little stewardship here to see if we are willing and able to take on greater stewardship in the next life. The family unit is a part of God's eternal plan, not just for mortality. "Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan." (The Family: A Proclamation to the World) and "We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children."

The family unit is part of the plan for happiness. It adds to our eternal happiness. It is not just a defense but provides something beyond what the individual could do for herself. Satan wanted to do it on his own, without giving credit to anyone else. The opposite is what we do. Every aspect of glory and happiness is not centered around personal achievement but our relationships, with God, Christ and those around us. The family unit is not just a mortal probation concept.

[Children bound by our covenants]

As I get older, the relationship that I have with my parents has changed. I am very close to my mother, in fact, we don't live that far away from each other and so I help her with her shopping and cleaning the house. I make sure she is ready to go to church on time, driver her there, sit with her and help her get from place to place. As she has declined over the years and despite having a PhD in literature, I have found that I have to care for her about equal hours I do with my own children. I think I have grown even closer to my mom over the past 10 years than I have the rest of the years (not giving away my age).

I think if I am fortunate enough to merit the Celestial Kingdom along with my family, our relationship will be greater than mother-daughter, mother-child. It will be a closer bond than even that. And it will be that way to all those who are in the Celestial Kingdom. I can't imagine there will be someone in the "corner" that I don't know their name, their experiences, etc. Because every one of those who make it into the Celestial Kingdom love their neighbor as their self. In other words, they would have to know everyone there as they know their self. There we find 100% intimacy. Just like there is nothing hidden from God, for all those in the Celestial Kingdom, there is nothing hidden ... and they like it that way. Those who want even a piece of proprietary experience or knowledge will find their self in a lesser kingdom in a graded fashion. Family life forces intimacy and in that way it is a test to see if we like that way of life or not or to what degree. God will give us that level of intimacy with our brothers and sisters that we would like.

[Comment from coworker]

Being brought up in the church I have no idea what other religons believe. I had a coworker tell me that her religon believed that when we die and we see our loved ones we won't know them as members of our families. What else would they be known to us then? Why are we put in families down here on earth then? If it don't make sense it ain't true.......says Judge Judy

This has really bothered me and didn't seem to bother my coworker whatsoever. Does anyone know where she got this from? Certainly not in the scriptures.

The purpose of families and family life for us is an opportunity to show that we have in our heart a desire to live that way forever or, for some, a chance to express that it is not really in the hearts desire to live within a family structure.

I am of the opinion that we will all see each other as we did prior to coming here, which is as brothers and sisters. I don't think that relationship will change much.

I remember when I was in Kindergarten or maybe it was first grade, I made a stink about not sitting next to a friend. My mom came in and spoke to the teacher and the next day I was sitting across from my friend. Maybe this reveals how old I am, but to this day I can't even remember the name of that friend. I know it happened but the details of the who and why are gone. I think it will be similar to that for those that don't see the family relationship as being very important. The desire of the heart is what dictates that over the actual situation. This life offers a chance to express the desires of our heart and for some that requires a desire to learn how to love it.

[Is intelligence finite, and if so...]

There are two point I think can represent benefits to the intelligence of G-d in creating man:

First Point has to do with my previous post concerning tests. That is when a student takes a test the proctor can determine what the student has learned. That can be valuable in determining what the students needs to be taught to gain a better understanding. But as several students take a test the proctor is able to learn and polish the lesson. Not the change any facts but to be more effective in teaching. Thus the trials of man become the lessons of G-d. This is similar to your concept with a slight variance in point of view.

Second point has to an old topic of the hive mind and the idea that as individuals work together for a common goal - regardless of how superior one intelligence is to others all benefit in the shared hive mind. This includes the idea that the whole is greater than the sum of all parts. By the very nature that G-d increases our intelligence and light - because we are one with G-d that increase adds to the Light of G-d as well as all others that will also benefit by the intelligent union.

The Traveler

Thanks for your response.

I think God's presumed ability to see the future would preclude him from having to need any feedback to make adjustments to teaching methods. But, of course, our actions determine what is taught and what is given. Just like there are some precious truths that maybe could have been given to Joseph Smith but we are just going to have to wait until we are more righteous as a whole. I am not seeing how any of that would change the possibility of finite intelligence.

I think there is one premise that has to be agreed upon or argued in order for us to really affect something that God learns for the first time and that is the idea that time is linear. If time is a whole or acts like a whole then there is nothing that can change even learning. However, if there is a past, present and future as a fixed law then it is possible that the present is different from the past and the future will be different from the present. I think that premise has to be in place to allow for any "progression" of intelligence. That, of course, does not mean that viewing different times and events is not accessible. It just means that one cannot say that something is 'brought to pass' until it has passed. This is why I go back to the phrase "to bring to pass..."

In other words, I do not know that something is done until it is done. I can say that it will happen but I could not say that it is done until it is actually accomplished. For example, I could say that I will die but I cannot say that "I have died" (physical separation of mortal body from spirit) at this moment. The issue is whether there is something "learned" by saying it has happened that is not possible to claim until it happens. There are many words in the gospel that imply this type of thinking. For example, inheritance. An inheritance is a potential ownership that takes place at a future time. Once inheritance is obtained it usually isn't referred to as an inheritance any more, just ownership. The words of satisfying laws and blessings predicated on obedience also imply that something has to be done in order to receive a higher state. The higher state is not reached just by saying there is a potential in the future for such things. So, the moment it is satisfied, the moment the words are spoken, 'job well done' there is a learning that the job is done, that the thing is 'brought to pass'. Even Joseph Smith gives the metaphor of climbing the ladder. Once all the truths are learned, all the secular and experiential understanding is had, the steps of the ladder may be, 'bringing to pass' righteousness. The rungs of the ladder require a linear reference, above and below the current step.

[Adam names animals]

Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith illustrates that the naming demonstrates that Adam was an intelligent person before the Fall. He learned from God in His presence. And that after the Fall Adam retained that knowledge as well.

It helps diminish the idea that Adam was innocent like a child who knew things in the world as a toddler understands them. He definitely was innocent but his knowledge was probably as great if not greater than the mightiest prophets. I mean he was taught by God Himself.

Good points. Even beyond that, I have pondered the possibility that "naming" represents a greater involvement, like the physical creation of these animals. Maybe he inserted the DNA in the bag of cells and nursed it along until it was an animal. The animals "coming to him" might be the instructions as to how the DNA coding was to be aligned. But as has already been pointed out, I probably am giving this way too much thought. Thanks for your responses.

[Adam names animals]

This sounds like a silly question but why did God make the animals come to Adam so that He could see what Adam would call them?

Why does God concern Himself with what Adam names them. Isn't the name God came up with good enough? When He created them spiritually, did He leave them nameless?

I feel like I am missing some deeper significance to this act. Any ideas?

The way it is worded so closely to "...and there was not found a help meet for him", it almost sounds like God was trying to show him every animal and have Adam realize that none of them could serve as help meet, he couldn't find one. That can't be the reason God made him name all the animals.

This leads me to another question - Does our mortal name matter in the eternities? I am sure we had a name previously. If so, why would a temporary situation name, mortality, take precedence over the eternal name?

Moses 3; " 19 And out of the ground I, the Lord God, formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and commanded that they should come unto Adam, to see what he would call them; and they were also living souls; for I, God, breathed into them the breath of life, and commanded that whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that should be the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, there was not found an help meet for him."

[Is intelligence finite, and if so...]

This little paragraph caught my attention. It has to do with our current education and the purpose of testing - especially unit testing. One of my biggest disappointments with our educational system is the use of tests. I dislike tests as the means to determine a grade for a class. I say this from the perspective that as a student I learned "tricks" to not just pass tests but the ace them. I discovered that I could get "A's" and not really understand the material. At the time I thought getting the grade and not understanding the material was the goal in education.

In the real world I have developed a much better understanding of testing. As a engineer I create and do testing to determine the effectiveness and parameters a particular "thing" that I desire to use and the conditions under which I can use it. I do not test stuff so I can say, "Oh, this thing is an A or that thing a B." Part of the purpose of a test is to know how well the thing works and under what condition it fails. But mostly I test to determine what changes need to occur in order the make the thing meet the needs for what it is intended. I test to see if and how much I need to modify for it to work within my parameters. So I make the necessary changes and test again - until it works and performs all the prescribed tasks.

It is for this reason that I believe we are tested in this life - not to prove that we are Celestial but to determine where we are on the path to being a Celestial being. Thus I believe testing is not to prove what we are but to discover what we have yet to learn and apply. I think that G-d allows us to retake our tests until we either get it right or give up and accept what we have learned, perfected and applied.

Thus the purpose is not to avoid any failure but to recognize failure and make a modification (repent) and retake the test. I am disappointed with religions that teach that all that is necessary or sufficient is to repent and then teach that no retesting is necessary. As a consultant I tell my customers - if it ain't tested it does not work and if they want to market stuff that does not work then do not test it. But there is one more very important thing about testing that in essence has already been said. Everything that has been tested and determined to work is all that works - just because something has been tested and proven to work does not mean that anything else works - I am amazed how people think that testing something means everything else also works.

The Traveler

I completely agree with the process of refinement that you outline here.

As it states in Gospel Principles, (paraphrasing) there is a need for us to learn by faith the principles of patience, endurance and charity. To me there is no doubt that there is a process by which those things are learned that cannot be done without being put into a position where faith is needed, mortality.

However, I think the discussion was more along the lines of how God's intelligence can continue to grow. In that light, I was suggesting that even for God there is a value in the "bringing to pass". When I bake a sheet of cookies, it takes refinement, mixing and baking by heat to make it happen even though I don't have to go through any of those steps personally, I have benefited from the materials going through those steps. God does not require any further refinement although somehow He gleans glory and joy from our refinement. Therefore, the process of refinement (vicariously) allows God to have continued, perpetual, infinite increase in intelligence. It is in our doing and all that He has done to make it happen that realizes the joy. It has to actually be done, not just saying it could be done (from God's perspective). He may know exactly how the perfect batch of cookies will turn out but that is not the same as actually baking them and then learning that it is done.

To me, the words "bring to pass" refers to a necessary step in the glory and eternal glory and happiness of God that cannot be passed over as if it means nothing. The point being the actual realization of the act is different than simply knowing how all things will turn out, for God. This must be an eternal principle. If not, then there is no reason for our existence because God could have had equal glory from simply saying, "I could have all these spiritual children and all their associated accomplishments if I wanted to." And there would be no added benefit in the actual carrying out of the act. Why actually do it if there is no change once it is done? God would not waste His energy that way, I do not believe in a God who does purposeless or valueless acts.

The reason we need to learn faith and charity is because that is the method in which God can glean continued joy vicariously. In other words, increases in intelligence are not necessarily referring to a quantified set of facts but refers to the knowing that an advancement has been made by ones that are connected via faith and charity, loving one's neighbor as your self. In that way, anything done by someone else with that connection is added to everyone with the connection. Just like when my kindergartner learns to read, my happiness increased even though I know how to read. There was no added facts or refinement on my part other than the learning of my daughters accomplishment and that brought joy. That is magnified via the characteristics of faith and charity.

The set of facts has already been learned. We spent ages upon ages learning facts before this life while in the presence of God. There is not one piece of secular information that one can learn in this life that was not already learned in the presence of God. We push forward with learning because we are learning how to learn while keeping an eye single to the glory of God. In other words, we learn new things while in mortality so that we can learn the lessons of faith, endurance, patience and charity which are tools for vicarious joy in the future.

[Is intelligence finite, and if so...]

D&C 92: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

There is a basic difference between the upper limit of my intelligence and the number of intelligence's (potential people) there are. The two are separate. Just because there is a limit to my personal intelligence does not mean there is a limit to the number of intelligence's there are. -- There may be a limit to the number of intelligence's (potential people) however nothing has ever been revealed about that or even hinted at as far as I know.

They may not be so separated when one ponders the idea that the glory and work of God is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (calling attention to the words - bring to pass). There is value to God in seeing that something is accomplished more than just creating something spiritually, there is value to making it happen. He cannot know that something is completed until it is completed. At the moment of achievement or completion of one of His children, in other words, the moment they achieve immortality or eternal life, there is something learned. He has learned that that individual has achieved immortality or eternal life. Which is more than just knowing of the potential or even the future action. Appreciating this comes with understanding the phrase "to bring to pass".

This life is a test of seeing if we will do the things God asks us to do. Why is there a need to test the ability of us to carry out the act over just knowing that we would do something if asked? ... maybe because there actually is value in the doing. ...maybe because God's glory is based in the 'bringing to pass'.

I am happy to know my children have been baptized. There was a change in my intelligence and glory the moment my children were baptized that was added to my being the moment the act was done that wasn't there even minutes before the act was done. Two minutes before they were baptized, you could have asked me "do I know they will be baptized?" And I would have said "yes". But if you would have asked me two minutes before their baptism, "do you know that they are baptized", I would have had to say "no", even though I knew they would be in just a few minutes. What difference does it make? I am not entirely sure but I do know I felt different knowing my children have been baptized from just knowing they likely would. I am assuming God is the same way with us. ....there is value in the "bringing to pass".

God is a just God and maybe this all has to do with Him being just. Justice has to be served. The law has to be satisfied. There is intelligence gained in knowing that the law has been satisfied over knowing that it will be some day. Knowing or learning of that time and time again in one eternal round is the progression related to the number of intelligences. Knowing that for each of them the law has been satisfied is a growing intelligence.