Seminarysnoozer
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Posts posted by Seminarysnoozer
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You bring up an interesting point - Is it possible that a person with Down's syndrome repent at some point to be free of it in eternity?
The Traveler
Christ's grace is sufficient. All the person has to do is remain humble and endure.
Death frees the person of the carnal burden, as it was with Paul's thorn in the flesh. Being humble and enduring is the way to deal with these carnal burdens, it doesn't require repentance unless it is something that does not lead to humility or if a person does not endure.
2 Corinthians 12; " 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."
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Great comments. I think on a physical level it is like what estradling75 said. A person willing to die or who has died for their beliefs adds more potency to their witness.
It is interesting to think that by passing the first estate test we all said that we were willing to "die" (separate from God) so that we might be more like Him. Now the test is to see if we actually will do what we said we would. We all said we would be willing to die for this belief in God's plan. Those that were not willing to die were thrown out of the program.
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Maybe so but I tend to think it will be a repetitive 1/3... Than again in the next life... 1/3... Until all are perfected in the bosom of eternity or assigned to the glory of the lower kingdoms.
Look around us. How many are choosing God? VERY FEW. After all the 10 virgins story tends to make it seem like 50% will be telestial than the terrestial and celestial will get a chance to prove themselves further. Until they are assigned their glory of a terrestial, celestial world. So how many is left? VERY FEW.
Look around you! Everyone you see chose God's plan! One cannot fail the test they already passed. This view allows us to forgive everyone around us and that is the view we are supposed to have of our neighbors. Why do you think Christ said so easily, forgive them for they know not what they do? ... because He knows of their stated choice without the veil.
This life is not the first estate test again. It is a different test, to stratify the one's who chose God's plan. Everyone here was faithful in the premortal life. There were some more valiant than others in their faith, but all were faithful enough to receive a passing grade.
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One would not think of themselves as bisexual if they had never chosen to be involved in bisexual behavior - same as someone would not be an alcoholic or drug addict unless at some point they had chosen to be involved with the use of alcohol or drugs. You are correct that having once chosen to be involved in bisexuality or the use of alcohol; that once one has repented and forsaken the addiction they are not sinful - at least for that. However, it is possible to obtain an addiction from a single indulgence.
We all obtain some addiction to various sins and without repentance we remain in the sin weather or not we continue to indulge. And we all know that having repented does not mean that we are never again tempted. I completely agree, that once we have repented; that if we continue to be tempted but do not indulge we are not guilty of the sin.
And rest assured - you will be free in eternity for all things you have repented of but without repentance - there is no freedom from any sin - ever.
The Traveler
Great comment!
And one would not look at their self as anything the body dictates if they realize that this life is a probationary period full of temporary stewardship. The spirit who has the body with three chromosome 21s does not see their self as a being with Down's syndrome when this life is over even though while in this life they carry that outward, physical description. All of us are in a fallen state which does not reflect in any linear fashion the nature of our spirit. The key is the discerning of that which is spiritual versus that which is carnally born. Keeping an eye single to the glory of God in conjunction with self sacrifice and forsaking one's life would not allow any of us to internalize the temporary stewardship we have in this life as a description of self. If one falls in love with things of dust they turn to dust in the end. One quick way to discern spiritual things verses carnal is to ask oneself if God likely has that trait. If one answers with "probably not" then it likely isn't anything worth pursuing and in the end will turn to dust, and that includes certain sexual persuasions. We all face carnal traits that God does not have by having a fallen carnal body, that is the test.
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I can't tell if I agree with your post or not. You stated it clearly but I am not sure how you are applying it to the eternities. I can see a way I would agree with it and a way I would not.
Do we live vicariously forever and ever through Christ? Or do we ever have to overcome things we currently haven't later on? How is that done? When does it happen? What happens when we get to the Celestial kingdom? How do we progress? Where are we trying to get to? How many estates are there? What do we do when we become as God? How do we have children? Were do we have children? Do we have physical or spiritual children? How do we raise physical children in the eternities? Also spiritual children? Were will we beget these children? How does one qualify to create worlds?etc...
I don't expect you to answer all those. Just some thought.
The question to your questions would be; why would we have to overcome it again if Christ overcomes the world (and every evil thing in it) for us? That would be a belief that His vicarious work was worthless. To me, that is the opposite of having faith in Christ. If Christ receives all that the Father has and Christ has invited us to be one with Him and thus one with the Father, what thing does the Father have that Christ doesn't? And, if a person were to become one with Christ, what thing would the Father have that that person would not have? The story of the prodigal son illustrates the potential to have all the Father has, as a gift, not earned by individual effort but as a shared inheritance. The idea that the God is God by individual merit is a Telestial based thought. We know that that is not true.
And another question would be; do you think there is any evil, whatsoever, in the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdoms? or are they truly kingdoms of glory? If there is no external source of evil, what has to be overcome? (or the Celestial for that matter)
This is the life for change. I don't think God, in his final judgement, will judge wrong. He wouldn't put a person in the Terrestrial Kingdom knowing that they are really Celestial by nature. One proof of that is what happens to those that die before the age of 8. Not every soul has to pass through this life of tribulation as a test to determine what kingdom they want or merit as there is no test for those that die before the age of 8. The ones that live beyond the age of 8 are given a period of time to make a change but after that there is no time for that kind of thing.
Your other questions pertain to God's work. You are right, they can't be answered as God's work is unmeasurable and without end and unknown to us. The part we do know, is that His work and glory is to bring to pass the Eternal life of man.
Look at D&C 76; " 98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;" Isn't it interesting that that is the only Kingdom of the three in which there is a description of differing glories as one differs from another? ... I find that very interesting.
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5. Even though someone may currently be possessed with the addiction to be homosexual, (or any other unholy thing or thought) they can overcome such things and become saved and exalted - it is a false notion and misleading pretense to assume that homosexuals can retain their unholy sexuality and be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom.
6. It is a false notion and misleading pretense to assume that any person can become saved and exalted while they continue to hold on to any sin (however small or seemingly insignificant). There is no salvation without repentance of all sins.
I agree with your points, and especially with the word "addiction" you use here.
The "addiction" starts with saying, "God made me this way." And then it is perceived as self and that is when it starts to become difficult to let it go. It is much easier to let it go when we realize what we are now is a temporary set of stewardship that is not spiritual self. We are in a fallen, altered state barely perceptible as self, any more than the person with Down's syndrome acts or looks like her spiritual self. Do we fall in love with the treasure that turns to dust or the long lasting one?
The only way to "hold on" or retain the things of this world is to express love of them or interest in them. Like you said in the first point, anyone who wants the Celestial kingdom life qualifies. Things of dust turn to dust at the end of this life. One can make it spiritual and long lasting only by making it a desire of the heart. Like money, power, fame etc., it is the love of carnal things that cause the retention. Paul did not "overcome" his thorn in the flesh in this life. It stayed with him until death.
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Yes, God takes into account who we really are, spiritual self and doesn't look at the outside person as self as we do to each other. God, of course, knows that this life is a temporary stewardship that does not reflect in any linear fashion the nature of our spiritual self. Who sinned, the man or his parents that he was made blind? We know the answer to that question.
One of the traps of Satan, I believe, is when people fall in love with their fallen self. If they say things like 'I am who I am because God made me this way' or 'I was born this way' is a subtle trap that all of us have to face in terms of looking at the carnal self verses the spiritual self and which side we give heed to. The more we give attention to carnal self, the harder it is to see our true spirit nature and then we act like it is not even there after a while. To some, the carnal self is all they are because they have blinded their self to spiritual influence. That is the end of the road of 'I was born this way'. We are to forsake this life and keep an eye single to the glory of God, not to our own individual glory.
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Ah ok I see now. My thoughts were said in a round about way. The reason is what I truly believe about the next life is personal, opinion, and not meant for public discussion.
You are right, suffering is a telestial world thing only (without glory, the world which we now live). But what is this world for? To prepare us to be like God? Or to prove ourselves in all things? Or to prove to ourselves who we ARE, are really ARE? Are We trying to find the deity within ourselves? Whats the purpose in this life of suffering if it doesn't perfect us? What did Christ have to suffer for us? What is its purpose? Some are able to some are never able to find that deity within themselves and connect to the holy spirit making them one with God. Like satan who progressed next to adam in the pre-existence but decided through rebellion to cease his progression. Cast out into a world without glory.
I see it this way
Celestial: Increasing State
Terrestial: Everything stays the same
Telestial: Degenerates
Also, there are orders higher than the celestial realm which one must progress too. The process we become like God, is the same that has been done in other worlds, one eternal round, Eternal life, Eternal Lives... otherwise one inherits eternal deaths. (D&C 132). All I will say is this. Going back to the OP.
Do we expect to become something if we have not done what they themselves has not done? Do we expect to be able to become a God yet not sacrifice all things? As said by JS that we must do in Lectures on Faith (I think part 6). Now I'll just end with the king follet discourse and leave it at that. Which I summarized above already.
This is what I believe. Its my opinion nothing more. Even though I am vague in that. This is all taught (as I SEE it) in the endowment.
There are way to many views on what this all means so this is why I am not commenting on it. At least not here.
The Celestial effect of one eternal round after another is obtained when one can learn to live vicariously. When one loves his neighbor as his self then everything the neighbor does is as if the person has done it himself. I think one thing we all try to move away from when we have faith in Christ is the perception of 'if I don't do it for myself nobody will'. Lucifer was stuck on this problem, he couldn't get past the idea that he would have to depend on someone else, a savior as he thought then the glory would go to that person and not himself. He wanted to do it himself so he could claim all the glory. What makes the Telestial world telestial is that it is made up of many individuals, as one star differ from another and separated in space. Whereas, true joy and happiness is one, like the sun. There must be a reason faith in Christ is something important to learn as opposed to faith in self and personal achievement. Personal achievement is great but it is limiting. Shared achievement is much greater and eternal.
We do funny things in our religion, one of which is to do things vicariously. But, anyone who is christian should understand this principle, to do an act for someone else as if they did it for their self as that is what Christ did for us. Christ being the center of our religion, this is one of the most important principles to learn, which is the ability to, by faith in Him, receive what He did for us as if it is our own. He suffered for us so we don't have to and we can move on to greater things. We can inherit the Kingdom. Inheritance is different than earning or creating or building up to that point. It is a jump up from where one was, receiving things that were not made or achieved by self.
If I worked in my father's company for many years and earned $500,000 and then purchased the company from him, I would not call that inheritance. But if I worked hard and then reached a point where my father was willing to co-own everything with me when it was time, joint ownership, then that I could call inheritance or a gift. If my decedents and I never died and we kept co-owning everything, round after round, then my ownership would be infinite. But, if my ownership is only based on what I purchase from someone else, taking away their ownership, then my future is limited.
In the Celestial Kingdom we can be happy for the success of others as if it was our own 100%. That is the thing to learn from Christ. Yet, some still would rather try to "earn" it on their own.
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I see exactly what you are saying and I used to think like this. My thoughts have changed recently. I don't have the knowledge to expound scriptures to show my point. But I will briefly explain it.
There are two degrees of this.
a) a wicked man who does not repent must suffer to overcome it STILL to receive forgiveness
b) Those who repented enough to become "those who Christ's sins bore", otherwards celestial, yet they still must suffer.
The first is reaching the point to enter the path, the straight and narrow, to receive ones baptism by fire and the holy ghost. Than they will have received a remission of their sins and continue to cleans their blood through Christ. They who do not repent, "must still suffer" to overcome that which they did not else they will not receive a forgiveness.
Those who do overcome, still suffer and must do so. Here they allowed Christ bore (bear) them up to the point they are free from sin. They are not sinless but are free from its bondage. They still suffer through their own sins. They still must suffer to perfect themselves. They must "sacrifice all things" to gain an exaltation. From exaltation to exaltation until they attain the resurrection of the dead and can dwell in everlasting burnings (King Follet Discourse)
The reason WHY Christ had to suffer in Gethsemane is because that is what perfected him. The 40 day fast is a type of suffering of perfection. Its a type of him subjecting his flesh to the spirit to such a degree that it caused his stomach to bleed (at least it would for us), to feed upon itself. His suffering in Gethsemane is a type of how he forgave us and caused the heavens to have mercy and grace have take on all those who would accept. Thus its a type of how we gain forgiveness for ourselves. There are multiple meanings for suffering and it can come in more forms than just pain and anguish.
What does it mean to go from grace to grace?
“And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at first, but received grace for grace. And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness.” In other words, Jesus grew in grace (light, truth, power, and perfection) by giving grace (service and blessings to others). We progress from one grace to another by giving grace to others.
Grace is to get grace on the condition of giving grace.
“For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.”
What do these have in common? While suffering accelerates our learning and progression and shows us who we really are in ALL circumstances, it is not quite the same as simply service. One we are requiring grace another we are giving grace. Except in Gethsemane Christ was not only receiving it but giving it in behalf of us. We can too! How?
Being a savior on mount Zion. Being an intercessory for all is how we practice this principle. I have come to realize the importance of this in all we do. We should be acting as intercessories as much as we are capable and able to do so for others. In our prayers, they should be directed towards others. In our acts, they should be directed towards others, in our suffering they should direct us towards God or others (Charity).
My thoughts in this are new so my understanding may be off quite a bit. So here we have the other half of this picture. Suffering perfects but also does giving grace. It was a little off tangent.
So what of those new borns? The children who die? All the others that seem to suffer?
a) They are suffering because they are not repenting.
b) They are not suffering because they ALREADY learned the principle behind it. I ask how? If we can only learn things through a body? Being here? If this is the life to know god? How did they before coming here?
c) They are still required to suffer equally to the point that is required, thus they suffer than the rest is up to us. If we don't repent we will suffer UNTIL we do so, than we will progress to the next level of grace. UNLESS we have voided our rights to do so by breaking eternal covenants that have been entered than broken. Stopped our progression where there is no forgiveness in the world to come but still receive an exaltation.
Hope I am making sense. Its a little cluttered.
Thanks,
Many of the things you are quoting are mixed discussions about this life and may not be talking about the next. You originally made the comment that we may not learn everything in this life and so how do we get there in the next? That is when you stated that we get there like God does, by suffering.
I was hoping to focus the comments on after this life is over, or at least, after the second estate is over. That is why I quoted the scriptures about Christ fulfilling His suffering so the saints don't have to suffer any more. It isn't fair to quote things about before we finish the second estate because you and I were commenting on after, the process of continuing to grow and learn. I don't see anything in the scriptures or teaching elsewhere that says that "suffering" is part of what anyone will do in the Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms as they are degrees of glory. If suffering is such an important part of continued expansion then one would have to say that God is now suffering.
I believe the suffering is only part of the second estate process. That is why it is important to bring up the children who die before the age of 8, as they bypass the second estate process and yet we all would assume that they also learn and grow. So, it is not necessary to suffer to grow. Christ can vicariously suffer for us and that is all that is "needed". That doesn't mean that people will not otherwise suffer, we are just talking about what is required to progress. Christ' suffering is sufficient for the step through the second estate process. And after that there is no other suffering, the suffering test is over, there is no need to repeat it.
If you have knowledge of any suffering going on in the Celestial Kingdom or the Terrestrial for that matter I would like to see it.
From Elder Pearson, "May we ever remember and understand that we need not suffer if we would constantly repent and come unto the Saviour of the World. I testify of Jesus Christ. He is the Saviour and Redeemer of all mankind. I know that my Redeemer lives."
And “In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
As a woman, Jesus' metaphor of what happens to our sorrow and suffering after this life is very strong; " 20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world."
The joy overpowers the suffering and we remember it no more.
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There is some good stuff in the lorenzo snow material.
Each and everyone of us must achieve perfection or be damned (like the tel terrestial worlds people are damned because they cannot achieve further progress of those that are in the celestial world, stop of progress). Why are we going from line upon line, precept to precept, grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation? Because as the Lorenzo snow mentions
We are perfect from the given laws. Thus we progress from law to law until we attain perfection. (Think endowment) This life is to learn perfection to the degree we are called upon (laws given to us). All things are possible with God to the willing soul. Even if we are eons away from the perfection of God we can through his infinite knowledge and a willing heart that doesn't break the unpardonable sin (breaking of covenants) can attain to perfection.
Joseph Smith taught, we must learn our exaltation even beyond the veil, also in d&C "the person that gains more knowledge through his faith and obedience has a greater advantage in the world to come". I believe this refers to us being closer to perfection.
We do not learn everything now. So how do we get there? The same way every God before us has done so. From grace to grace. Suffering brings perfection. That is why we suffer.
Telestial World -> one overcomes through Justificaton, Washings
Terrestial World -> one overcomes through Santification, Anointings
Celestial World -> one overcomes through purification (the work of perfection), Sealings
The Journey – Receiving our Endowment | Journey to the Fullness
Don't forget that Christ' atonement satisfies the law.
The goal here is to not suffer. D&C 19; " 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;"
D&C 88; " 106 And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh angel, saying: It is finished; it is finished! The Lamb of God hath overcome and trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him"
and " ...114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all."
The question is, what do you think Christ has done for you vicariously that you cannot do for yourself in the journey of perfection?
What did he do for a baby that lives one hour in this world and is immediately a candidate for the Celestial Kingdom? I don't know about you but I don't remember anything about my first hour of life and would not call that suffering at all and yet they that die early are Celestial. Babies that die are not affected by Satan and they are Celestial candidates and Satan has no power over any of the saints after the end of this world, so the "suffering brings perfection" for those individuals is only in terms of Christ suffering, vicariously for them so they don't have to. Just realize that when you say "we suffer" it is nothing compared to Christ' suffering for us - that is real suffering, so that we do not have to suffer. D&C 19 "17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—"
Faith in Christ (that He really did suffer for us so we don't have to) and Repentance is needed for perfection, not suffering like Christ (as there is no other kind of suffering that compares to what He did).
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"The Other Prodigal" by Elder Holland, 2002 - It may give me some hope to be found, at least not forgotten.
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I realize the blood of Christ had to be spilled for the atonement to be complete. What about the prophets who sealed their testimonies with their blood? Joseph Smith, Abinadi, Peter, etc. is their a need for their blood to be shed? Does the shedding of their blood increase the efficacy of their testimony?
One definition of "shed" is 'to repel without penetrating' and another is 'to rid one self of' (like - I shed 10 pounds). All of us are asked to live in the world but not be of the world. We try not to let the corruption of this world penetrate to our spirits so that we don't take it with us after we shed this corrupted body. We forsake the things of this world, that is part of our testimony and faith in Christ. We take on His blood, via the sacrament, which is pure and not corrupted like ours. So we shed our blood, symbolically, to be replaced with His.
"Blood" refers to 'flesh and blood' or the mortal body. Do we chose to serve the body or the spirit? Matthew 6: " 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?"
Shedding of the blood is a symbolic statement of not serving the body (mammon).
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In the end... It is about choice... (not lip service but what we actively choose and seek for)
Christ is our teacher... He is there to teach us about what he can offer us, and the consequence of sin. So that we might make good choices.
Many of us don't understand (at least not fully) so he continues to work with us until we do. He works with us until we get it and choose.
This leads to a built in limit... Once you fully get it, once you fully understand... Once there is nothing else that he can teach a person about it... Then if they do not choose him well then there really is nothing left for God to do because God respects our agency. There is nothing left for God to do after a fully informed and fully understood choice is made that wouldn't violate the agency of the person he is working with.
We all understood fully at the point of finish of the first estate. We understood all that we could understand by someone teaching principles of truth.
The second estate test is to see if we would do what we said we believed in before this life began but under the circumstances of having to do it in "the flesh" meaning by faith (not pure knowledge). The test itself, in other words, is one of not having full knowledge in this life. The "full knowledge" test occurred first, the first estate test.
After the second estate test occurs, we will regain our knowledge by which we will have full guilt of our actions and realize how short we fell from our potential, thereby, being judged of our works while not having full knowledge.
Alma 41: " 3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.
4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—
5 The one raised to ahappiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh."
It is based in what they desired while they were in the day; "all day long", in other words, while they were alive (mortal) before "the night cometh", before death.
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This thread is about the fall of man. I put forth the idea that the fall of man as a choice and decision took place in the pre-existence before we were born. That choice was a choice made before any of us was born and the consequences of that choice had implications before we were born.
I do not understand why you think children are some exception to the fall which is the only topic I have introduced in this thread. So I asked why you think the full meaning of fallen as we understand the fall of man; does not apply to children.
Perhaps I should ask do you believe that fallen man or anyone that has fallen is spiritually affected by the fall? If not - why? Is in your mind a fallen individual the same as a "natural" man? This is why I asked you if children at birth are in a fallen state - physically and spiritually. Right now I am rather confused with what you opinion is and what point you are really trying to make. So I ask again - do children according to all you understanding of what is a innocent pure child and what is a fallen being -- Are children born as fallen beings?
The Traveler
No, your thread, in your OP, was about the possibility of an "immediate" affect of the fall on all. I don't think you understand the difference between being fallen and being affected by the fall. This isn't an all or nothing condition, it is variable. So, yes we were all affected by the Fall of Adam, a door was opened for all of us to have a greater potential than we had prior to the Fall. The Fall was a glorious event as it allowed the Plan to take a step forward. We all were then in a position of greater potential, so that is how the Fall affected all of us.
The effect of the Fall is to allow us a test while physically and spiritually separated from God. As little children, all of us, are not under such a test until we reach the age of accountability. Until then we are not affected by the Fall in such a way. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.
It would be like being accepted to college, yeah! I was accepted to college. Being accepted to college changed things even before I actually went. And then once I went I learn that I don't have to take English because my AP classes covered that requirement. I don't have to take College English, it is already covered - I will not have to face the test of College English while I am at college. Similarly, there are spirits that don't have to face the test related to the effects of the Fall. Are they fallen in nature for a period of time? Yes. Are they affected by the Fall? Not in the same way that everyone else is as they don't sin before the age of 8, they remained pure and innocent and so in that way their spirits were not affected by the Fall.
Is it possible to be in the world without being of the world? If the answer is yes then it is possible to be fallen without being affected by the Fall.
I think it would be good to ponder why Adam and Eve had to be in the flesh while in the Garden of Eden. Why not just be faced with the choice of the two trees while in spirit? If one understands the significance of being in the flesh with that choice then one would appreciate how the Fall relates to being in the flesh and not just being a spirit prior to mortality. Adam and Eve accepted the plan just like we did, prior to even going to the Garden of Eden. Why weren't they spiritually fallen to begin with then as they entered the Garden of Eden? How could they still be in the presence of God while in the Garden? Isn't that the same position we found ourselves in after the Fall of Adam but before being born here, as were Adam and Eve right before they were placed in the Garden?
The other thing to ponder is that if there is such an immediate affect like you are suggesting then there would also be an immediate affect at the same moment from the effect of the atonement. Why do you think there would be a delayed affect from the atonement on the children that died before the age of 8? The scriptures suggest that whatever moment the affect of the Fall took place, at the same moment the affect of the atonement was at play for those spirits. If that is true then there is no moment in between in which those spirits could have been affected by the Fall. And I would say to that, all of us remained innocent, via the atonement at the exact moment of the effect of the Fall, whenever that was, until we reach the age of accountability.
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I find that your insistence that children that have not reached the age of 8 (or anyone without accountable mentality) do not exist in a "fallen" state is nonsense and a complete misinterpertation of scripture.
The Traveler
I never said they don't exist in a fallen state when they are here. Or course, your comment was about the fallen state before they were here. So, this is why I gave scriptures that say things like "children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin" and "little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world..." which is not an interpretation in any way. These are just postings of the scriptures.
So, how do you interpret those scriptures?
The scriptures seem to imply that the fallen state (not saying they don't exist in a fallen state) has no affect on their spirits, that they remain as pure and innocent as when the whole thing started. It is not a common LDS view to say that we all start this life as something less than innocent and pure. This is how a lot of the world views our existence but this is not how LDS view our selves and our pre-fallen, first estate passing spirit self. As these scriptures point out, ALL children are pure and innocent. They did not enter this world less than pure. This is not my interpretation, this is a common understanding of the scriptures which is confirmed by what the apostles say about it. (see this is one of those areas that you might be hurt by not realizing man is a dual being, body and spirit and being able to separate the two allows a person to exist in a fallen state but not be fallen, just like living in the world but not being of the world. If one believes there is only one being, not a dual being than this is an example of a doctrine that is hard to understand. I am not my body. A child is not their body. The spirit of the child is not the corrupted body.)
This is from Bruce R. McConkie; "Are children tainted with original sin?
Absolutely not. There is no such thing as original sin as such is defined in the creeds of Christendom. Such a concept denies the efficacy of the atonement. Our revelation says: “Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning”—meaning that spirits started out in a state of purity and innocence in preexistence—“and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God” (D&C 93:38)—meaning that all children start out their mortal probation in purity and innocence because of the atonement. Our revelations also say, “The Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.” (Moses 6:54.)"
and from McConkie; "Are children conceived in sin?
Since there is no such thing as original sin, as that expression is used in modern Christendom, it follows that children are not conceived in sin. They do not come into the world with any taint of impurity whatever. When our scriptures say that “children are conceived in sin,” they are using words in an entirely different way than when the same language is recited in the creeds of the world. The scriptural meaning is that they are born into a world of sin so that “when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.” (Moses 6:55.)"
So, how do you interpret that "They do not come into the world with any taint of impurity whatever."?
According to the Bible dictionary the Fall of Adam and Eve is "The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth." So, how exactly am I misinterpreting your description of some affect on spirits, who are not yet mortal, about a process which, by definition, is the process by which we become mortal? Add to that the fact that the scriptures and apostles with very clear terms say mortality has no affect on children but somehow you think I am misinterpreting that. What specific fallen change did the Fall of Adam have on spirits before mortality? Like I said before, the only change is opportunity for growth, a positive result. There was no "fallen" (mortal) result directly on those pre-mortal spirits. They did not become mortal at that moment. They did not receive a corrupted body at that moment. And the effect of the mortal body is not something that can taint the spirit until they reach the age of accountability.
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I would add another thought concerning the fall. As I have considered these things it is obvious to me (not a new concept but a very ancient concept) that when the fall occurred it immediately had an effect on all of mankind (the spirit children of G-d). I submit for consideration and discussion that when the fall occurred that all of mankind as spirit entities were separated from the Father and excommunicated from the kingdom and society of G-d the Father. That the fall immediately affected all spirits that became fallen - the exceptions being the Son and the Holy Ghost.
The only means men have to commune with the Father is through the Son, Jesus Christ, that by appointment and agreement became the one and only G-d of the fallen. Thus Jesus is currently the one and only "true" G-d -- beside who there is no other G-d for the fallen man. By divine law not only must Jesus be present to mediate for us to the Father but must also be present to mediate for the Father to address us.
I would point to a couple of teachings to demonstrate this doctrine. Consider the Book of Job chapter 1 starting with verse 6. We know that Satan was expelled from "Heaven" where the Father is G-d and rules the divine kingdom. But here we see Satan coming before the very place from which G-d rules. The reason is because this is the Son Jesus Christ in his rightful place of G-d ruling the fallen of the Father. This scripture demonstrates the divinity of Christ and his rightful place as our G-d in the "Heaven" that Satan has access.
I would also encourage that those that are so in covenant to attend the temple and observe the separation from where Jesus directs the affairs of mankind and the place where the Father rules his kingdom.
The Traveler
Moroni 8: " 8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children."
"12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!"
And I would be careful about adopting such ancient ideas that are the root of the doctrine for infant baptism; "14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect clove casteth out all fear."
Bottom line; we are taught not to think little children need baptism or repentance. I don't think I would entertain such ideas with such a strong warning against it.
Also note, the Garden of Eden is a place outside of heaven called paradise and yet in the presence of God but it is not a place in which a person could be like God because it did not allow for progression while they remained in that place in a perfect (but not glorified) physical body. All the spirits did not experience the same thing, we did not start out with a perfect body in paradise. Also the Garden of Eden is not mortality. I am not aware of any teachings that say all the spirits found their self in the Garden of Eden while Adam and Eve where there with a perfect body. The point is that "the Fall" is not from spirituality to mortality but from paradise with a body to mortality with a corrupted body. In other words, the effect of the fall required to start with a perfect body so that it could later be redeemed and resurrected to it's former perfection. In a vicarious way, we all lost that perfect body but the dilemma is that we could never have a body without the fall. So, it was only in a vicarious sense that we fell. Adam fell that men might be. He did it for us.
And from Merlin Lybbert; "The Lord extends special protection to children and shares jurisdiction with earthly parents, even as we enjoy their presence. They cannot sin until they reach the age of accountability, which the Lord has declared to be eight years (see D&C 18:42; D&C 29:47)."
That is an interesting statement, to say that the Lord "shares jurisdiction" with all children until the age of 8. Doesn't sound like they are cast out at all. In other words, one cannot be "cast out" until the age of accountability which occurs while mortal for all those who passed the first estate test, not before mortality.
Not sure why you give so little credit for passing the first estate test, that was a big deal, you know.
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Sometimes there are a number of concepts that get lost in specific doctrine. Perhaps one of the most confusing and conflicting doctrine in Christianity is the fall of man or as sometimes referred to as the fall of Adam.
I will begin this discussion by asking a couple of questions.
First is: Why did the fall of Adam affect all of mankind – and what was the extent of that effect?
Second question: Is G-d just to force the consequence of one person’s actions and choices on others that were not involved in the choice? In essence is G-d just in making everyone responsible for the choices and actions of someone else (ie. Adam and Eve)?
The Traveler
Everyone who passed the first estate test already agreed to come to this world and agreed with the plan. The Fall of Adam is simply the referee blowing the opening whistle to say "game on". The players on the bench waiting for their turn are also affected by the 'blow of the whistle' but not yet in the game. The Fall of Adam was a start. It was a door opening for all mankind to move forward in their progression. We had come as far as we could, we matured as much as we could as spirit beings, we learned all we could as spirit beings so now the second phase of our development started and that is how it affected all mankind, it widened our potential and our responsibility and accountability at the same time. It was like cutting the ribbon for a grand opening of a college that we were all accepted to and one day will attend. It's affects are widespread in that if there is no college nobody could ever attend. Now that the doors are opened, our potential for greater glory is opened.
This life is not a punishment but an opportunity. I know it is hard to see that now, but I believe that is how we viewed this life then. We didn't look at the Fall of Adam as 'oh boy, we are going to get punished now', I think it was more of a joyous event for all of us mixed with a tiny bit of trepidation, like getting that missionary call or the acceptance letter to college.
The other thing to keep in mind is that we believe in vicarious acts. It shouldn't be too hard of a stretch to believe that someone could do something for us in the flesh and someone else reaps the benefits of it. Is that not what we do for baptisms and sealings of the dead? Is that not just either? It would be unjust if the person didn't accept it. But the Fall of Adam was accepted by all who accepted the plan of salvation with the first estate test, then the vicarious act was that of Adam and Eve, which is well within our play book. We certainly accept the vicarious acts of Jesus without any question.
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:animatedthumbsup:I read an interesting storoy the other day.
"if you have done it unto the least of these you have done it unto me"...
There is a story of Jesus in Luke? on the road to Emmaus, the savior journeys with some of his disciples and they do not recognize him. He talks with them, asks them questions, he takes them where they are currently at and teaches them. They attended the Lord unaware.
While it may not always be angels, or as the other story shows, it could literally be the savior himself who can withhold his appearance, we should see everyone as Christ. (literally and symbolically)
I don't think Christ withheld his appearance as much as they were looking at him through physical eyes and not spiritual ones. It was after he broke bread and blessed it that they realized who he was. It wasn't that he, after breaking bread, changed his appearance to something that was recognizable. Even in Matthew, there were many who saw the resurrected Jesus and doubted. How could that be? Did they doubt that Jesus had actually died? or did they doubt who they were seeing was actually Jesus? I would assume nobody doubted he died, He was on the cross long enough and stuck with a spear in his side. That would be odd for anyone to doubt He died. So, they must have doubted who they saw was actually Jesus. In other words, we shouldn't assume that His resurrected appearance is exactly how He looked while on the Earth. I am sure all of His mortal parts were corrected by the resurrection process and could have easily changed His appearance.
Their eyes were "holden" so they didn't recognize Him, is a problem we all face. We all look though physical eyes which makes it difficult to see spiritual and glorious things of the spirit. Once the spirit touched their understanding, then they saw by partaking of the sacrament. That doesn't mean His appearance changed, just their level of recognition changed. Our eyes of understanding can also be opened by participating in these ordinances.
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There is not right way to serve others. What matters is you are doing something. I have seen both sides of this up close. People use it immediately for drugs. The scriptures tell us not to give to the rebellious (like food storage when we need it as its our noah's ark). There is a quote from brigham young would you give to 10 people if 9 of htem would use it incorrectly to help the 1? Of course.... (paraphrase).
As I said, we can talk to them, we can help in other ways, or the actual grocery store, the Lord will provide a way for our ABILITIES to help. As long as its in OUR HEART to help. And we are not, NOT helping because of our greed or want for costly apparel or materialistic things. The Lord asked me to do so, I think more of a test for myself. Now I am not sure how much or freely. Still pondering that.
Its funny, I don't feel very happy when I do. I usually feel, its not enough I should of given more, or I should of done more, was I trying to cheat the Lord and that person?. (Talk to them, or something)
I agree, the scale from righteousness to wickedness and all that in between is a measurement of what is in the heart. Do we love the things of this world, are we carnal? Or, do we love things that are spiritual in nature? Since both of those features make up self at this time, we are dual beings of both carnal nature and spiritual, the word "self" incorporates the two beings. For this reason it is important to develop a sense of what is spiritual verses carnal.
Wickedness is to fall in love with the lesser version of self, the earthly version and all its associated carnal passions and drives. It is to sell ones inheritance for something of lesser value. This happens because people don't listen to their spiritual drives and understand who they really are. It is kind of like when I find my son playing on the xbox too long thinking that he actually accomplished something because he made it to the highest level of the game when he could have spent the 40 hours on other self improving pursuits. Earthly achievements seem like something important but in the end all those treasures turn to dust. Wickedness is to fall in love with the perceived treasures that actually turn to dust in the end. Faith in the Lord allows us to aim for eternal treasures by forsaking the things of this world, to love eternal things more than carnal ones.
I like how David O. Mckay puts it; "What a travesty on human nature when a person or a group of persons, though endowed with a consciousness of being able to rise in human dignity to realms indiscernible by lower creatures, yet will still be content to obey animal instincts, without putting forth efforts to experience the joy of goodness, purity, self-mastery, and faith that spring from compliance to moral rules! How tragic it is when man, made a “little lower than the angels and crowned with glory and honour” (Psalm 8:5), will content himself to grovel on the animal plane.
Earth in all its majesty and wonder is not the end and purpose of creation. “… [My] glory,” says the Lord himself, “(is) to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” (Moses 1:39.) And man in exercising the divine gift of free agency should feel in duty bound, should sense the obligation to assist the Creator in the accomplishment of this divine purpose.
The true end of life is not mere existence, not pleasure, not fame, not wealth. The true purpose of life is the perfection of humanity through individual effort, under the guidance of God’s inspiration.
Real life is response to the best within us. To be alive only to appetite, pleasure, pride, money-making, and not to goodness and kindness, purity and love, poetry, music, flowers, stars, God and eternal hopes, is to deprive one’s self of the real joy of living."
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Two points from the information that you have provided.
First: an inferior physical body cannot and will not corrupt a spirit on its own by its self. An individual is not corrupted until the spirit has voluntarily turned away from G-d.
Second: The source of the influence that corrupts a spirit is Satan.
My point is that though you talk of Down’s syndrome and Tourette’s syndrome such corruption is no advantage to Satan. I honestly do not know why you speak of these things that do not matter. It is Satan that destroys the human spirit.
The Traveler
I agree with your summarized points, thank you.
In answer to your question about why I bring up Down's etc; it is because you asked the question how it is possible to that Satan corrupted the body without first corrupting the spirit. Those are examples of such a situation. We are all born into corruption, that is a part of the plan.
Romans 8: " 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious dliberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
The exposure to the corruption is part of the plan, not that we have to sin and then exposed, as it says in verse 20 we did it not willingly but because we had hope or faith in the plan would get us where we want to be. Verse 18 speaks of Paul's understanding that our current state is one that masks the underlying glory of our spirit and so even those that are faithful (verse 23) still have to wait for the adoption of the body even though their spirits are purified. This is another description of good spirit, bad body. Paul realized that we have to endure this corruption until the redemption, the resurrection occurs.
The problem with your view that the evil we exhibit is all Satan to spirit is that it doesn't meet with our view that the plan is one of happiness and joy. The plan of Salvation is a Plan of Happiness. For all those that passed the first estate test, the second estate test is one to determine what state of glory we end up with, a plan of happiness. The second estate test is not the first estate test in which spirits were divided into good and evil and the evil was cast out. The second estate test is designed to designate in a graded fashion a degree of glory! This test is not a black and white test, good and evil. It is more of a test of how white is our white; is it pure as snow or marred. But even the liar and murderer receive a degree of glory greater than what we find here. That is why when you read verse 18, keep that in mind, the sufferings that we encounter here are "not worthy of the glory which shall be revealed in us." In other words, if the spirit truly drove what the body does then the body would reveal a (future) glorified being, at least one that has passed the first estate test.
The rest of the religious wants to paint the picture that we are still in the first estate test, that God is simply dividing the evil from the good. We know in our more advanced understanding of the gospel that that is not true. How would one separate the "A" students of a class to stratify them? Well, there would have to be a new test that even the "A" students would find difficult. Then the "A" students could be stratified further. The first test was a pass/fail test. The religious majority would have us think it is the same kind of test we face now, pass/fail, good/evil revealing the true nature of our spirit. We know that is not true. All of our spirits here on Earth are good. How good is what we are being tested on, to what degree are we good and this is tested by how faithful we are and what we truly desire when faced with carnal influences that we sometimes take to be self.
The discovery of DNA started with first isolating the nuclei of cells. This was done back in the 1860's where the phosphorous rich nucleic acids where then isolated and then further discovery could be made about the nitrogen atom containing groups, cytosine, thymine, adenine, and guanine. The metaphor I am trying to draw here is that there is a certain isolated feature of our character being tested here in this life that does not require the whole of our spirit to be involved. This life is an isolated view of our faithful character. God can then use that information to stratify our true desire of the heart to put us into one of the Kingdoms of Glory. For whatever reason that we are not privy to in full (but knowing a good part of it is that the plan required a Savior), it required us taking on a Fallen state that is not really us, as Paul puts it 'the sufferings we face are not worthy of the glory that is in us.' The gentle separation of the nucleic acids is a delicate process, as with the separation of the wheat from the tares, full knowledge would destroy the process (veil is needed) and too much evil influence would destroy the process which is what happened in the days of Noah. To discover DNA required the destruction of cells, tearing their components apart, to see what they are made of, and by exposing them to chemicals and processes that are not a normal part of their chemistry to isolate and quantify their make up. We too are exposed to things that are not a normal part of our make up, our personality, our drives. Carnality will be completely overcome by our Savior when the process is done.
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The root of carnal is physical. In modern language carnal also has sexual overtones. Satan however is not physical but is a being that is spiritual. I do not understand how it is that you confuse the two? and do not realize or recognize any possible difference? I do not understand how you think Satan corrupts the physical without corrupting the spirit first in the process?
The Traveler
I think Elder Bednar explained it pretty well. What do you think of his statement?
Satan was given power to bruise the heel of man by way of the Fall. All things became corrupt by way of the Fall.
The spirit of man is affected by Satan indirectly via the body. As the person chooses to listen to those influences over spiritual ones then the spirit of that individual is marred and changed and whatever mindset the person leaves this world stays with them into the next by way of how their spirit was changed from pure and innocent to adopting carnal influences. Our goal is to remain clean and pure, to be like a child, innocent despite being exposed to these influences.
To answer your question of how Satan corrupts the body first without affecting the spirit is the same question that explains why we don't baptize people at birth. Moroni 8: 10-21. D&C 29:46-47 " 46 But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;
47 Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me;"
The spirit is not affected by the imperfections of the body until the age of accountability. There has to be enough growth and control possible over the body so that the spirit is now able to influence the body enough to be accountable.
If someone has Down's syndrome, the body is corrupted but their spirit is pure and celestial.
If a person with Tourette's syndrome yells out a cuss word in the middle of church, is that from the body or the spirit? Is the spirit corrupted because of the body's corruption in that case? Is that person responsible for the cuss word that might fly out of his mouth 100 times per day? Who is responsible, who sinned, for the blind man being born blind?
If the body is pure from the beginning then how would the second estate test be any different than the first estate test? The spirit would then be equally influenced by Satan as it was in the first estate test. All of our spirits were directly influenced spiritually by Lucifer before this world began and we all rejected Lucifer. We don't have to prove that test over again, we all passed that test. Now we face a different test, to see if we will chose faith in the Lord over faith in our self, self meaning one part pure spirit in the beginning and part carnal influences. What part of our nature do we fall in love with the most, the carnal part or the spiritual part? That is the unique test we face here that was different than the test we had in the first estate which was purely spiritual influences. Why do you think the first estate test was invalid and that we all need to re-do that test over again with a purely spiritually guided test and influenced choice? This world presents a test of faith not of knowledge base. When we had all the knowledge in front of us we all chose Christ and God's plan over Satan's. We don't have to repeat that test. It is passed and the reward for doing that is given to all who come here, save those that deny the spirit test, the sons of perdition.
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I think you are a little confused? Are those that sin according to the flesh subject to their physical body (mind) or Satan?
The Traveler
All mortals are subject to their physical bodies unless they learn to bridle those passions. What does it mean to live in the world but not of the world?
If the body is corrupted what is the difference?
To be subject to the corruption of this world is to become carnal which is to be subject to Satan. I don't see it as different issues.
1 Corinthians 9; " 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
Elder Bednar explains; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."
Bottom line; The consequences of the Fall effect us through our bodies and that is the test to see if we respond to those drives or the spiritual drives, the natural mind or the spiritual mind. It seems pretty clear that Elder Bednar realizes the elements and the body itself is not just an innate object but a force that are subject to the "pull of sin, corruption and death." The Fall occurred because of the temptation of Satan, so I don't see what the difference is.
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The doctrine is here
Doctrine and Covenants 93:33Â*
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
That verse tends to be separated by itself but by itself hardly explains the doctrine. Within that section are verses such as " 3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—
4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men." Which seems to speak of the two bodies, the mortal one that provides a part of the fullness in understanding good and evil amongst the sons of men and then the Father gave his fullness, the resurrected body, making the Father and the Son one. Those verses are also required to ponder the real meaning of verse 33. Because verse 33 alone does not explain the 'how' a fullness is "received". One thing to call attention to are the words "gave" and "received". The fullness is truly something given and received and not something developed over time. There is a point in the plan in which one jumps up in a non-line-upon-line fashion, the point of resurrection, where one gains a significant amount of glory. The glory of the moment is delivered in the form of a physical body. I think these are things to ponder.
Also ponder " 24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;" and "26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;" and in verse 27 we read that we cannot receive the fullness without being obedient to all the commandments which we know results in receiving a Celestial physical body upon resurrection. This links the idea of receiving a knowledge of all truth, of things as they are, as they were and as they are to come.
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I like what James12 posted about the importance of the body in this thread. The question is "Why do we need a body of flesh and bone?". I quote james12 below:
Regards,
Finrock
Thanks again for the reference. After rereading the quotes I would call attention to Elder Bednar's quote of "Will my body rule over my spirit ..." and that Brigham Young called the body and the test we face one in the same. To "rule over" the spirit, the body must have some self generating thought, "evil whisperings" as Elder Packer says. In other words, these quotes support the idea of two minds, that of the spirit and that of the natural body. And these quotes propose the reason which is to present the test. A single mind does not present a test any different than the one we faced in the first estate test.
It still amazes me that most LDS take this is a given doctrine but most of the world does not believe God has a physical body and yet we don't have much of an understanding of why God needs a physical body. To better understand this purpose would help us understand the small stewardship we currently face in hopes of gaining the greater stewardship which is contained within the physical body more than what a spirit body could do.
:animatedthumbsup:
Son of Perdition
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
How is there glory in failure?