["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

The point is that the proclivity to sin existed as part of our individual intelligence (spirit) from the very beginning. It was not manifested from the beginning - but becomes manifested through the agency of man. The agency of the pre-esistence (first estate) was added upon in our second estate as we gain knowledge of good and evil.

Note that Satan was a liar from the beginning but that he was not cast out until he rebelled against G-d.

The Traveler

I agree with everything you say here. Not sure how that is contrary to anything I have said.

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

My first thoughts of our brain being the veil bears witness of truth. We are taught in scripture that knowledge precedes eternal life. We begin to learn and know God, and as we begin to learn and know God we receive eternal life.

Our knowledge, the ability to obtain knowledge, is linked heavily with our brain. The more knowledge we gain, the less likely the veil will be able to contain us, such that our faith becomes knowledge and like the brother of Jared who saw the finger and then the whole spirit body of Jehovah.

Very interesting connection, more to meditate upon. :)

Faith in this life is what brought the brother of Jared to see God. Before this life we obtained all the knowledge there is about God save some experiential knowledge, like living by faith without having direct contact with God. God is not going to save someone based on how many scriptures their brain is capable of memorizing or how learned someone is (the ability to obtain knowledge). 80 +/- years of life while living in a corrupted mortal body doesn't even compare to the quantity of knowledge obtained while living in God's presence for thousands if not longer years without a veil of forgetfulness. Spiritual knowledge while here is what makes our faith useful knowledge. What carnal thing can understand spiritual things?

Why would you claim your brain's ability as your own. This is a temporary stewardship. Even if one had Einstein's brain or whoever you esteem as being intelligent, they cannot claim it as their own, it is given, the body is given as a temporary stewardship. Even professional athletes (a few of them) at least give praise to God for their successful body characteristics. Carnal intelligence is also given temporarily just as linearly related to the spirit of one who is born with Down's syndrome. ... there is no linear relationship to spiritual intelligence and carnal/brain intelligence.

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

D&C 93:

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

Please note colored text

The Traveler

If you go back a few posts ago, I say that I have never said the body sins. I believe the spirit of man sins. That is not affected by a body that is corrupt while here because as spirits we agreed to come here and take on this body.

The scripture you highlighted so beautifully in pretty colors is saying that in the beginning the truth was plainly manifest, while in the spirit we all accepted God's plan and yet while here as man, this is our condemnation because we don't receive that knowledge, we don't have full access to it. Why? because of the veil. And in this life if we don't receive promptings of the spirit and remembrance from our own spirit then we fall under condemnation. ... what other point are you trying to make?

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

I am not sure what your are trying to say. The fall was not physical only. I think that the fall had spiritual implications as well. I believe that both our physical body and our spirit suffered because of the fall. The fall is not the source of unholy thoughts. I believe that is the role of Satan.

Since the book titled "Colossus" SiFi has been concerned with artificial intelligence becoming self aware and overtaking human intelligence. But as sophisticated as hardware has become - the most powerful computer is moot (dead) without software - just as our brain, as wonderful and powerful a creation, is no more intelligent than any other physical object without a spirit. It is the spirit that gives life and intelligence to G-d's physical creations.

I am not sure but it sure seems that you believe that without a physical body a spirit cannot have or maintain a unholy thought. I believe that Satan and his followers proves that to be incorrect.

As to a dual nature - it appears to me that a dual nature is the character of intelligence. It appears to me that any intelligent entity has agency or the ability to seek good or evil in the sphere in which it exists. And it does not matter at all if such a being is physical or spiritual. I believe the scriptures prove that there are unholy spirits and holy spirits. And I believe that I have, in this empirical existence, experienced that there are both holy and unholy deeds done by embodied mortal beings.

So I agree that man has a dual nature. What I do not understand is the concept that or spirits did not experience in our pre-existence any duality - to the contrary I believe we made had a choice arising from our dual nature without any physical influences.

The Traveler

What spirit that you know about experienced duality? All we know about it is at the end of our maturing process in the pre-mortal world we were given agency with one particular fork in the road, to follow Satan or God, to make a choice. Spirits either chose one or the other. There were no wafflers after the battle was done. A spirit chose one or the other. To make a choice is not duality if one chooses one and not the other.

If you feel so strongly, what is the purpose of physical influences then, at least as far as testing goes? They play no role?

I think Paul understood this concept well and wrote about it frequently, Romans 7 is a good example; " 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

You want to think that this is my made up set of beliefs or ideas, where I have only looked at what the prophets and scriptures say about it and try to understand it. Brigham Young said; "The spirits that live in these tabernacles were as pure as the heavens, when they entered them. They came to tabernacles that are contaminated, pertaining to the flesh, by the fall of man. The Psalmist says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me” [Psalm 51:5]. This Scripture has established in the minds of some the doctrine of total depravity—that it is impossible for them to have one good thought, that they are altogether sinful, that there is no good, no soundness, and no spiritual health in them. This is not correct, yet we have a warfare within us. We have to contend against evil passions, or the seeds of iniquity that are sown in the flesh through the fall. The pure spirits that occupy these tabernacles are operated upon, and it is the right of him that sent them into these tabernacles to hold the pre-eminence, and to always give the Spirit of truth to influence the spirits of men, that it may triumph and reign predominantly in our tabernacles, the God and Lord of every motion."

I am not trying to say it is an all or nothing set up that the spirit is flawless but the fact of the matter is that we came to this Earth triumphant over Satan, we passed the first estate test. And then we received corruption in the flesh, we fell. You would like to say that we didn't fall very far. Whereas, what I am saying is that by taking on this body we fell very far. That is the difference. But here is the real thing to consider, how ever far we fell is the equal if not greater magnitude to which the Savior saves us from. In other words, if one does not think we fell very far, we are the same old wretched being we were before then Christ's counteraction of the Fall is not much. I believe I cannot overcome the effects of the Fall without a Savior. Christ spent a lot of his time performing miracles related to healing the body and in fact His final act was to overcome His own body, the death of His body. When we partake of the Sacrament we take on His flesh and blood for a reason, to replace our own, symbolically. We wash our body with the baptism, we then renew the washing with the Sacrament, so we can remain or return to spiritual purity after the body has corrupted that spiritual purity. Once we take care of the body then we can move on to bigger things, sanctifying the spirit. This is why the law of Moses, focusing on the physical circumcision is a primary law fulfilled in Christ because through Him we can all overcome the physical nature so we can focus on spiritual improvement. Why overcome the physical if there is nothing to overcome? Why subdue the flesh if there is nothing to subdue? If it is one thing then it would only be subdue self. To subdue, one thing has to be over the other ... two separate things. Those that claim the self is one thing, love to say things like, 'just be yourself' or 'do what feels right to you'. Whereas we know that we are to do what feels right to the spirit and not follow the passions of the flesh, we can separate those two.

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

I personally do not believe in spontaneous anything - which may sound odd for a physicists trained in quantum mechanics. I believe that every thought from our brain comes either from our spirit causing it or another spirit causing it. I believe that if a thought is not caused by our spirit then the thought either comes from the Holy Spirit (Ghost) or from the influence of a unclean spirit.

When we listen to the promptings of a unclean spirit the promptings of a clean spirit are diminished and vice versa. Thus as we listen to unclean spirits we become dead to the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost).

I would compare other than our spirit, spiritual influences to a radio. We (our spirit) can only tune in one station at a time. In order to receive thoughts from the Holy Ghost our spirit must tune in our brain to holy things. The same in receiving thoughts from a unclean spirit. With one caveat. The default or natural setting for our brain is tuned to receive the promptings from unclean spirits.

I do not believe our brain can hatch any unholy thought without help.

The Traveler

So, you would not be satisfied with simply saying the "hatching" of the unholy thoughts was the Fall, the start of the mortal corrupted body process?

I realize you want to see the brain as just a "radio receiver" type organ. I think one ponders the utility of the body and the brain when we realize that the only way to become glorified is to be united with a body. So, the spirit alone does not have all it takes to reach even the Telestial Kingdom. What is it from the physical body that is added to the spirit that makes it more glorified for even the Telestial being than would be there with only a spirit? Answering the question for a Telestial being is important because then the answer is more involved than simply the knee-jerk answer of reproductive purposes. What does the brain add to the make the soul? Spirit and body together make the soul and can lead to a fullness of joy. This is such an important concept in our faith and yet there is a lot of resistance to the idea that the brain does anything at all other than relay signals. Why not just use a cell phone or some other technological apparatus if that is all it does ... The perfected body adds glory that a spirit alone could not accommodate. The dual being description the prophet Mckay gives is, to me, a good place to start in understanding this relationship.

Why are you so insistent on a "one mind" description. What of the gospel doctrine is thrown off by David O. McKay's description of a dual nature, the physical body nature and the spiritual body nature? To me, it allows better understanding of phrases like "forgive them for they know not what they do." How can one do something they don't know they are doing? It is possible if we are truly dual beings. The left hand knows not what the right hand is doing. And how one can be spiritually dead while they are alive. And this would explain how a spirit is not held accountable for something the body is doing, like if a person with mania jumps the temple wall in attempts to hurt someone inside, etc. There would be no reason for God to see the inside if there is no inside or outside (dual being), it would all be one. Man seeing the outside would also be seeing the inside if it was one.

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

I agree. It seems to me that our brain serves two functions. It is the interface of our spirits to our body and thus the access of our spirit to the physical world around us and other individuals.

I think that our brain is also the veil by which our spirit has forgotten our pre-existance. It seem that our spirit's only access to functions and things is through our brain. It would seem there are some rare exceptions but it does seem to me that our spirit is blind except what is filtered through our brains.

The Traveler

Yeah! I am getting through!

Why is it not possible that some of the "functions" you speak of cannot be spontaneous thought, or the thought that creeps onto the stage or imagination or misconception?

Like driving a car that is pulling to left, it is only revealed by actually driving. The car sitting in the driveway is not pulling to the left. But once the driver gets in and drives then the action of pulling to the left is experienced and has to be counteracted to drive straight. The driver is not pulling to the left, the car is.

Just because a body without a spirit is dead doesn't mean it cannot have action of its own, or it cannot have "function" as you put it.

The actions of the body is "dead", that is why the body without the spirit is dead. Like faith without works is dead, they have to go hand in hand. But that does not mean that a person cannot have faith alone or faith without works. Faith without works is not nothing. It is something but it does not live, it does not go beyond this life. Likewise, the mortal body is intended to only be operational during mortality. Like the car is only intended to be driven, not drive by itself. But that does not mean it cannot have action of it's own. I think that is an over-interpretation of that verse as it is certainly possible someone have faith without works.

1 Timothy 5:6 " 6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." She is alive but dead .... how is that? Because the actions of finding pleasure from carnal sources cannot let the seed live but the person is alive while dead from the spirit. The spirit has no influence but the body liveth. Spiritual death. In a chapter about faith and works and spiritual matters, I am sure that is what James was referring to when he said the body without a spirit is dead. Of course, the spirit leaves the body when the body is dead. But the deeper meaning of that verse is the mortal body is mortal whereas spiritual things go beyond this life.

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

Same reason why children with down syndrome, brain damage, and other special needs. The spirit interacts with our brain, and if the brain isn't functioning then our spirits are physically bridled pertaining to their capability.

This is no different than how my uncle began to change while his mind, right before he passed, was having multiple tiny strokes. The doctors specified probably 100 to 1000 strokes in one day, tiny strokes.

Please explain what you mean by "physically bridled". Maybe we are talking about the same thing but using different words. Could it not be "bridled" with false information, imaginative perception, new made-up information? If you say 'yes' then we are talking about the same thing.

Simply take the blind spot. The brain makes up information as to what is in that spot. It is not actually picking up on any information but the brain perceives it as if there is information there. So the brain has made up visual information that simply comes from the circuits of the brain. Unless you think it is the spirit that fills in the hole of the blind spot.

Or when someone has phantom limb pain after losing a limb. There is no real information coming through but the brain still perceives information as if it could be there. Is that the spirit or the brain that is making up that information?

If a segment of the sensory cortex is electrically stimulated while the person is awake they feel a sensation as if it came from the corresponding area. But the information is not true, there was no stimulation of that corresponding area, simply electrical firings in the part of the brain that allows us to perceive that particular sense. So, what made up that sense, the brain or the spirit?

Sometimes people with seizures have auras. They might smell burning tires, for example, when there is no burning tires around. Even when the area of the brain that starts the seizure is not localized to the gustatory cortex, a person can still have those types of auras. In other words, that part of the brain is functioning normally but when the stimulatory effects of a local seizure focus make it fire the person perceives it as a certain sense, in this case a certain smell. So, is the made up information of the smell coming from the brain or the spirit?

As an intensive care nurse, I have personally witnessed many people who have "died" but the tissue is kept alive by artificial support. I have no way of proving it to you, of course. But family members of the patient, who I knew as being spiritually in tune and at least in one case was a Bishop have said the person has passed, the spirit has left the body. After, to harvest organs, we have to show death through various criteria including brain waves. I personally have witnessed two times where there was a leaving of the spirit from the body and brain waves were identified.

In college, I have done numerous labs with nerve tissue connected to various organs - eyes, muscle etc. Electrically or chemically stimulating the nerves produced normal signals making the muscle fire or recording visual information from the eye even though the animal was dead and dissected.

And here is an example where you might really have to take a stand; what about the individual who has same sex attraction? Does that attraction come from the spirit or the brain? If it is the spirit then you would have to say that their spirit was that way before coming here. That would be a very strong stance. Whereas in the model I am discussing and proposing (note - I didn't say believe - that is your claim of my words) it would be possible to have a set of attractions that are contrasting between the body and the spirit.

David O. Mckay; "Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual.

Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit." ... "The question, then, is: Which will give the more abundant life—pampering our physical nature or developing our spiritual selves? Is not that the real problem?3

Indulgence in appetites and desires of the physical man satisfy but for the moment and may lead to unhappiness, misery, and possible degradation; spiritual achievements give “joy not to be repented of.”

In his epistle to the Galatians, Paul specifically enumerates the “works of the flesh,” as he calls them, and the “fruits of the Spirit.” Note this classification: The works of the flesh are manifest as these:

“… Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, ...."

As the prophet explains there are two contrasting natures, the physical and the spiritual as man is a dual being. It seems to me that when he says "appetites and desires of the physical man" he is not talking about desires that come from the spirit of man. They can become desires of the spirit when they are adopted as such over time but they are there even for those who don't give into them and who don't make it a part of their spirit.

If you feel hungry during a fast do you really desire to fast? If the apostles feel sleepy when their spirit wants to stay awake and watch and pray, was it the spirit that felt sleepy or was the spirit still willing even though the body drove the desire to sleep?

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

How is it possible that people can be of "one mind" with G-d if as individuals they are not even of "one mine" themselves?

(See 1 Peter 3:8, Romans 15:6, Moses 7:18, Philippians 2:2, Doctrine and Covenants 45:65, 2 Corinthians 13:11)

The Traveler

Great question! By putting off the natural man and through the help that the ordinances of the gospel provide. By sanctifying the body through righteous practices that subdue its natural tendencies. Will we be 100% effective in that effort? No, not in this life but the rest is provided by the resurrection with a perfected body and through the grace of Christ. We cannot overcome this body and the effects of the Fall by our self. The natural man is put off by being humble in realizing that fact, to be submissive and listen to the promptings of the spirit and turn to the Savior for help.

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

Nothing I have shared goes against anything I have written. I have shared, we have "one mind." Our mind interacts with our brain, they form a symbiotic relationship.

In scripture we are informed, Mosiah 4: 30, to watch our thoughts, words, and deeds for all these will be taken into account; thus, we are responsible for every thought "our spirit" instigates or entertains.

I would assume from your last statement in this section that you fully didn't read my posts. I clearly mentioned "carnal thoughts" will stem from the adversary, who is allowed to tempt and try us. Thus, we will not be held accountable for the thoughts the adversary places into our minds, unless we entertain them.

In relation to these answers, then your statement, "If one strictly believes....," would be incorrect.

In relation to my previous statement, Whitman's 17 murders are no different than Cain who entertained the thought of killing Able, and then went through with it. Our spirits are innocent as we enter the world, and our spirits are effected by personal choice, by our upbringing, by our physical body and by the adversary.

Notice Elder Ballard mentions, "the addict abandon what he or she knows is right." Then Lucifer is able to take control as he did with Whitman and Cain, and many others.

Nope, unless you can tell me of a brain that exists without a spirit and is able to imagine and use all of its neural pathways without a spirit?

Yes, then tell that to my friend who experienced night terrors and by which the doctors specified his night terrors were triggered by past traumatic events in his childhood. As his home teaching companion, one of the first experiences they shared with me was how this is exactly what happened to him. The doctor confirmed night terrors. The doctor confirmed and explained to him they were a result of traumatic events in his childhood.

Are you wrong then?

Ever watch TV? Ever listen to the news? One doesn't need to experience an intruder firsthand to have dreams about an intruder entering his/her home.

I have never experienced flying, but heck, I have thought about it many times and how wonderful it would be to fly and as a result of my thoughts I have had dreams of flying.

I have read your posts fully and I do appreciate the conversation. Thank you.

I don't disagree that the adversary is the source of all evil but that does not discount the possibility it is delivered via the brain. We have this corrupted body as a result of his temptations in the garden, so the brain generating imaginative and deceptive information is as a result of the Fall and therefore as a result of Satan's temptation. The effects of the Fall is what Our Savior overcomes for us.

So, you think Whitman's tumor or numerous other similar examples had nothing to do with the physical effects on areas of the brain that led to those actions?

Why do you fight the idea that direct electrical stimulation of the brain can cause spontaneous thought that has nothing to do with reality? You would have me believe that the spirit was affected by the electrical stimulation?

In the example of RBD (REM sleep behavior disorder) the person acts out dreams as to an intruder with which the person has to fight off. This is a very specific change in the theme of dreams that they didn't have before. The dreams are specific around that theme. In other words, the person can describe exactly how many people are coming in and what they did and why they had to act out in a violent way, not realizing they are punching or kicking their spouse. Or they injure their self by jumping out of the bed and running into a wall or out the window. They can be so violent that patients sometimes try to tie their self in bed at night to avoid the injuries. You think that has to be spirit driven and not the circuitry of the brain alone?

Why did Phineus Gage have a change in personality after taking a railroad spike through the frontal lobe? Because it injured the spirit? I don't think so. It was because that area of the brain relates to personality.

Are your traits here on Earth exactly how they were before coming here? Are there traits a person might have here that are just temporary characteristics given as part of their stewardship for this life. Like Moses having trouble speaking - that was a spirit thing or just a "thorn in the flesh"? So, he still has trouble speaking now that the mortal body is gone for him? Did my spirit have the trait of getting a dry mouth when I get nervous? Then where did that trait come from if not the brain's circuitry?

The definitions for Night Terrors is one that is accepted by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine. Night Terrors is not a psychiatric diagnosis. Do people that have had traumatic experiences wake up more often at night? Yes, so therefore they are statistically more likely to have parasomnias but it is not a direct cause or a requirement for Night Terrors. Nightmares would be more common in people that have had traumatic experiences but not necessarily Night Terrors which comes out of slow wave sleep, not REM like nightmares do.

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

If an evil dream like you describe is of your own making, or to the degree that it is of your own making, then it will owe it's creation from sins of either thought or deed while awake. As such the dream itself is not what needs repentance but the deeds which spawned it.

If an evil dream like you describe is not of your own making, or to the degree that it is not of your own making, then it is not a sin but a temptation. Since temptation is not of itself a sin, then why would such a dream be?

Sincerely,

Brother M.

Exactly, the dream is simply a temptation. And the deed that spawned it could simply be the deed of accepting the plan to Fall and become fallen and receive a fallen body for a short period of time. We agreed to be exposed to the temptations of this world for testing purposes. Why was the man born blind? Was it his sin or the sin of the parents?

The thoughts that enter the stage of our mind that are not good could simply be like being born blind, they are there so that we depend on the grace of our Lord to help us through such temptations. The bad thoughts don't have to be there because our spirit generated them.

If there is no separation from the drives of the spirit and the body then Christ would not have told the apostles that the spirit is willing but the body is weak. He would have just said 'your one mind is not willing'. Did the desire to sleep come from evil spirits implanting the temptation to the spirit directly? Or, did the temptation come via the body? If the temptation came through the spirit and they succumbed to the temptation then the spirit was not willing and the spirit was weak. But, likely (in my opinion) the influences of the body are greater than the spirit, not the other way around. This is why it is hard to walk down the straight and narrow. It takes a lot of 'watching and praying' to allow the spirit to overpower the body's influences, not the other way around. Then natural state is not one in which the spirit is more influential. The natural state is one in which the spirit is overpowered by carnal influences.

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

In light of this, I would say dreams are a process of unconscious thoughts I have experienced, or have desired to experience.

I believe these "shady little thought" come from two sources: the adversary who is able to tempt us and our personal desires.

I don't believe I have any thoughts generated solely from my brain.

Night terrors are related to some traumatic event within a person's living experiences. These experiences may have been a result from a traumatic injury to the brain, a very frightful experience, or by some other experience in a person's life.

I would disagree, we only have one mind, unless we are "legion" in the bible who had been possessed by many spirits, then there were multiple minds fighting for the same brain and body.

There is a difference between my brain and my spirit, my intelligence. The brain interacts with my intelligence and in turn the brain then interacts with my body. Without the spirit, the brain would be a blob of organic material incapable of sending any message to the body. Unless, you know of a brain that is fully functional without a spirit?

What do you mean the "brain interacts with my intelligence"? This seems to go against everything else that you are saying. You, in so many words, seem to be saying that the flow of thought is only in one direction, from spirit to brain and not the other way around. If one strictly believes that the flow of thought can only be from spirit to brain, then one would have to say that every time someone has a carnal thought that it started with the spirit and therefore we would be responsible for every thought we ever had in this life.

That would mean that you think that experiences like that of Charles Whitman "I do not quite understand what it is that compels me to type this letter. Perhaps it is to leave some vague reason for the actions I have recently performed. I do not really understand myself these days. I am supposed to be an average reasonable and intelligent young man. However, lately (I cannot recall when it started) I have been a victim of many unusual and irrational thoughts." come from the spirit and not his brain. So, the 17 murders and his wife and mother were all generated by the spirit mind despite him having a tumor and vascular lesion around the amygdala. Which brings me to ask, if the spirit is the source of all thought, why then does the amygdala exist, that generates the fight and flight response and responsible for anger response. If it is all the spirit generating anger etc. there would be no reason for such an organ that if directly electrically stimulated could produce the response of anger. You would maybe like to say that the electrical current somehow affected the spirit that then told the brain what to experience?

"When a surgeon sends an electrical current into the brain, the person can have a vivid, lifelike experience. When chemicals seep into the brain, they can alter the person’s perception, mood, personality, and reasoning. When a patch of brain tissue dies, a part of the mind can disappear: a neurological patient may lose the ability to name tools, recognize faces, anticipate the outcome of his behaviour, empathize with others, or keep in mind a region of space or of his own body… Every emotion and thought gives off physical signals, and the new technologies for detecting them are so accurate that they can literally read a person’s mind and tell a cognitive neuroscientist whether the person is imagining a face or a place. Neuroscientists can knock a gene out of a mouse (a gene also found in humans) and prevent the mouse from learning, or insert extra copies and make the mouse learn faster. Under the microscope, brain tissue shows a staggering complexity—a hundred billion neurons connected by a hundred trillion synapses—that is commensurate with the staggering complexity of human thought and experience… " (Pinker, 2003).

M. Russell Ballard; "Researchers tell us there is a mechanism in our brain called the pleasure center. 2 When activated by certain drugs or behaviors, it overpowers the part of our brain that governs our willpower, judgment, logic, and morality. This leads the addict to abandon what he or she knows is right. And when that happens, the hook is set and Lucifer takes control." Even Elder Ballard describes the brain as having function that governs our willpower, judgement, logic, and morality.

If there is no thought generated by brain, then there is no reason for the brain to contain neuronal pathways related to logic, emotion or memory. Why would the physical brain have such functions if not used. If the only source of logic and emotion and memory was from the spirit then the brain should not be able to produce such experiences by being electrically stimulated in those areas, such as what happens during a seizure. And before you claim that the person who has seizures have a diseased brain, realize that the area generating the seizure activity is not necessarily the area that leads to those sensations as the excitability of a seizure spreads to cause normal functioning brain to fire repeatedly.

You seriously don't believe in a brain that can imagine?

You are wrong about night terrors. Night terrors is a parasomnia in which a person is awoken out of slow wave sleep and remains in a half awake, half asleep state and has nothing to do with past traumatic experiences. What about REM sleep behavior disorder where a person believes someone is intruding into the house and he starts to fight off the intruder and act out the dream, punching his wife in the process even though the person has never been in an altercation or violent in any way during their life? Where did the idea that there is an intruder come from? The devil - come on, I know you don't believe that. It is stopped by a medication. Did the medication block the effects of the devil or just simply block some of the intrinsic properties of the brain?

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

Without the spirit our brains would not be as functional as they are. I understand dreams are typically a direct result of our personal thoughts, either thoughts from our youth, or thoughts as adults. Thus the more clean our thoughts, our actions, our lives, then the less likely we will have "evil" dreams, as you call them.

However, some dreams, are random aspects of our lives, a hog posh of all our individual thoughts: flying, then swimming, then jumping a mile, while doing hundreds of flips in the air, a dog biting you, a falling and crashing, etc....

No. Repentance should be the result of our active thoughts. Dreams, as to my understanding, represent our active thoughts. Correlation, how kids and adults experience nightmares after viewing a scary movie. My wife doesn't watch anything scary, she can't even handle CSI, without having nightmares the following night.

I wasn't sure where you were going with the question, thus I can now more elaborate my thoughts. We have one mind, our intelligence, without our intelligence (spirit) our brains produce nothing -- they die.

The temporal brain cannot exist without the spirit, but the spirit is able to exist without the brain.

Our spirits and our brain form a symbiotic relationship. I taught seminary to special needs children and for a time wondered if this was really necessary, and then the spirit taught me, though they are unable to speak what they know due to the handicap of their body, their brain, their mind, is learning (2 Nephi 31: 3).

I believe however, these two are different questions. We have "one mind," which is enticed by one or the other, carnal vs. spiritual. When the mind gives into a carnal desire we consider this to be a carnal mind, and when the mind acts in accordance with light and truth we call this a spiritual mind. They are still the same mind.

Our brain, our genetics, may affect how our intelligence is able to act in this world, but the mind remains "one mind."

Our dreams are not only a hog posh of things in our past but they also entail things that are made up. They are not just pieces of recordings of past experiences. They are of things imaginative and fictitious. The brain is good about adding perception where none is there. The blind spot for example is an area of the visual field where no actual visual information is coming in but the brain fills in the hole with assumed information. Our brain anticipates situations that are not actual, it can imagine, for example, I can imagine if I fall from a tall ladder I am going to hurt myself even if I am not actually falling at the time and so my heart rate goes up and I get a little tremulous in anticipation.

When a person is dreaming, if one sprays a little water on their face, they suddenly dream they are swimming or on a boat etc. What entity made up that idea that the person is on the boat? The spirit or the brain? The person is unconscious at that moment and yet an idea is made. A perception is spontaneously generated.

What I am getting at is the question of where does the thought that Elder Packer talked about coming from? ; "the shady little thought" that "creeps in from the wings"... "without any real intent on your part"

Would you say that the shady little thought that creeps in from the wings without any real intent is still an intended thought from the "one" mind? Or can there be thoughts generated by the brain?

When a person is totally drunk or coming off of anesthesia and acting like a fool at least not acting like their self, you mean to say those actions are generated by the spirit only?

What about a diencephalic seizure - a seizure associated with sudden fear? Or night terrors?

I agree that the brain cannot be a "mind" in the sense that it cannot be accountable for it's actions so therefore it cannot be something that "acts" or chooses or is what we consider to be an "intelligence" just like we would not consider a computer or a robot to be something that is accountable. But a robot and a computer can still act, even though they are things that are acted upon. Or when the Earth decides to quake and pull down a city swallowing thousands of people killing them, I don't think we would hold the Earth responsible or accountable even though there was action, it is not something we would say acts, it is acted upon but still has independent action.

The hardest thing to separate as far as things that act versus things that are acted upon, though, is the human brain. That is the most complex "natural" thing in the world. But it is still of this world, it is corrupt and carnal. It does not just sit there and do nothing! I think that thought totally under appreciates the value of the brain to our being. There are some things in which a computer is better suited for than doing it "by hand". If I had to make numerous calculations in a short period of time I would rather have a computer do it than me doing it by hand. Likewise, the brain is a tool of interesting use that we don't fully understand. I wouldn't say it sits there and does nothing other than pass on what the spirit tells it to do. I think that idea misrepresents its purpose.

When I drive to my friends house, semantics allow me to say "I drove to my friends house" but it is understood that I did not personally generate the movements that propelled my body to my destination. I cannot claim that I did it myself, even though those are the words we use. Likewise, I think we say "the mind" as a combination of effort from both the brain and the spirit but we really do not comprehend the relative contributions from each in any given thought. This is why we are completely incapable of judging, we cannot see the inner man. If there is only "one" there is no difference between the outer and the inner, they are one in the same.

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

I would promote that we have only one mind, our intelligence, however this one mind is weakened by the natural tendencies of the flesh, or strengthened by turning to God.

I would promote our dual nature is also of one mind, which has been given knowledge of "good and evil."

We were born innocent, without the knowledge of either "good or evil" in our hearts. Our ultimate test is which enticing do we give heed, that which comes from God, by the spirit, or through the devil tempting us to follow the instinctive and natural tendencies of all bodies of flesh.

Which temptation, or enticing, does our single mind, our single intelligence, entertain? The natural mind is "acted upon" by circumstance and circumstance dictates the action, right or wrong is meaningless as long as the self is preserved. Thus, this type of mind can be associated with darkness, loathsome, idolatrous, lasciviousness, and so on.

The spiritual mind is a mind that "acts" and circumstances do not dictate the outcome of his or her choice. Right and wrong become imperative to the spiritual progression of the individual. This is the mind that is associated with their true heritage -- light and truth.

So, a dream (not talking about the inspirational vision type - just a regular dream) that one would have about something evil, like if one were to have a dream about an affair, is that the spirit making that up or the brain?

If it is the spirit, the one mind you suggest, then a dream of that sorts should require repentance for such a thought. Right?

The other option is that the human brain can create thoughts, stories, fill in the blanks and change perception, as well as wants and drives, thus a "natural mind" of its own initiative. It is only when we start to list to obey that force that it becomes part of the spirit.

If a person who has OCD or even a condition like Tourette's thinks or repeats a cuss word over and over, is that the spirit - one mind you talk of, or is that emanating from the natural mind?

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

I have been thinking about this. I can come back and quote a few scriptures but for the moment The mind is our bodies mind, our hearts are our souls, the spirit. When our minds connect with the heart (soul) the flesh and soul become one. Thus our souls, if obedience is given to that spirit, is than in tune with the Holy Spirit or the mind of God. Our spirit communicates to the Holy Spirit or mind of God. Thus our minds can communicate to the heart or our spirits or the mind of God or Truth. Once we become purified this connection is not just temporary, or occasionally, or frequently but as the sacrament prayer states. ALWAYS.

If you read the scriptures, the Lord will usually tell you in your Mind and Heart. Satan will only tell you in your mind (our bodies). Satan cannot know the intents of our hearts. Why is that?

This is the first time I have had any opinion on this or stated it or even thought about it completely. So If anything is false feel free to let me know.

I would say my thoughts are exactly how you stated it. I think about it whenever we partake of the sacrament as we are taking on His flesh and blood. The putting off the natural man is a very real one, a literal struggle to put off the natural drives of the carnal brain. And I agree with Satan working through the body, the brain. Thanks.

["Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"]

From other discussions, we have recently talked about the influence of our body verses the spirit. Knowing that we are dual beings with contrasting natures, as David O. Mckay puts it, is there a separation of "mind" between the "natural mind" and the "spiritual mind"? In other words, are those two separate systems or are they one system that flips back and forth between being natural and sometimes spiritual?

Some other quotes to stimulate thought about this question;

D&C 67: "10 And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind."

It seems that the natural mind and the veil go hand in hand.

____

Bruce Fordham

"

Do you ever feel as though your thoughts control you—not the other way around? It doesn’t have to be that way.

Perhaps it’s a familiar scenario: a child repeatedly opens a cupboard door even though you have told her—several times—to stop. A field goal kicker misses the goal even when he has thought to himself, “Don’t miss it. Don’t miss it. Don’t miss it.” Or perhaps you eat a piece of chocolate cake even though in passing through the kitchen, you tell yourself, “Don’t eat that.”

Why does this happen?

Think about how you respond to a negative or inappropriate thought that comes into your mind, either as a result of unhealthy thought patterns or simply because you are a natural man or woman (see Mosiah 3:19; D&C 67:12). Perhaps you reprimand yourself. Or maybe you repeatedly tell yourself to stop thinking about that subject. In the case of the first response, you unwittingly weaken your resistance to such thoughts and lower your sense of self-worth and confidence. With the second response, you unknowingly give energy and strength to the undesirable thought by repeating its image. This occurs because our brains are unable to replace something with nothing. When there is not another thought or activity to replace a negative one, the thought to open the cupboard or miss the field goal or eat the cake takes root because of the image’s repetition in the vulnerable mind.

Of course, missing a field goal or having a piece of chocolate cake aren’t evil, but these examples of how our minds work hold true in cases where thoughts are inappropriate. We know that one of the ways Satan influences us to work against ourselves, seeking to make us “miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27), is by promoting the idea that our thoughts control us rather than that we can control our thoughts. This, of course, is a great deception.

So how can we overpower undesirable thoughts?"

___________

And Boyd Packer - Stage of the mind

“The mind is like a stage. Except when we are asleep the curtain is always up. There is always some act being performed on that stage. It may be a comedy, a tragedy, interesting or dull, good or bad; but always there is some act playing on the stage of the mind.

Have you noticed that without any real intent on your part, in the middle of almost any performance, a shady little thought may creep in from the wings and attract your attention? These delinquent thoughts will try to upstage everybody.

If you permit them to go on, all thoughts of any virtue will leave the stage. You will be left, because you consented to it, to the influence of unrighteous thoughts.

If you yield to them, they will enact for you on the stage of your mind anything to the limits of your toleration. They may enact a theme of bitterness, jealousy, or hatred. It may be vulgar, immoral, even depraved.

When they have the stage, if you let them, they will devise the most clever persuasions to hold your attention. They can make it interesting all right, even convince you that it is innocent—for they are but thoughts.

What do you do at a time like that, when the stage of your mind is commandeered by the imps of unclean thinking?—whether they be the gray ones that seem almost clean or the filthy ones which leave no room for doubt.

If you can control your thoughts, you can overcome habits, even degrading personal habits. If you can learn to master them you will have a happy life.”

If these come on without any real intent, where do they come from? They come from the natural mind, right? They come from the body, the brain as opposed to the spiritual mind, is that not right?

____________

Christa Skousen:

“Although it is normal to have negative thoughts once in awhile, it is what you decide to do about those feelings that will ultimately make the difference. Allowing those negative thoughts to reside will dampen your feelings of self-worth.”

________________

And think about where the thought to eat food comes from when you are trying to fast. Is that your spirit thinking evil thoughts or the brain (the natural mind) or is it one in the same that flips back and forth between types of thoughts?

If I get angry driving down the road and someone cuts me off but I don't let the thought take hold and I don't act out the thought, it is simply passing within seconds and then controlled, where did the original thought of anger come from, my brain or my spirit? If it is my spirit then I should repent every time the thought "the shady little thought" as Packer puts it, pops into my head or only if I let it take hold? Do the "shady little thoughts" come from the brain or from the spirit or can we even separate the two?

[The world is wrong]

Again it is simply not true that the only opportunities to sin come about because one has a body. The choice to sin is a spiritual choice and until one's spirit decides to sin a person cannot and will not sin. Two points:

First: Satan is the g-d of sin. One cannot sin without becoming subject to Satan and there is no sin that does not give him power over that person's spirit that sins. And this has nothing what-so-ever to do with a body - absolutely nothing and is 100% within an individual's spirit. It is the spirit that has power over the body (See Alma 34:34) The body does not have power over the spirit.

Second: There can be no sin without the spirit of a person initiating and choosing the sin. Contemplate carefully what Jesus taught - "As a man thinks in his heart; so is he" and "he that looks upon another and lust after them has already commited adultry in their heart."

Now to the importance of receiving a body - I will give you 2 reasons:

#1. It is necessary to have a body and experience the death of the body in order to have knowledge of good and evil. Without a body one cannot have knowledge of good and evil.

#2. With a body come great power. For example, a body is necessary to be a G-d and have children.

One last thought that I will give only as my personal opinion - it appears to me that the only advantage or benefit in eternity of having a body is if a spirit seeks after that which is good. It does seem to me that an evil spirit will destroy a body and will always cause death of the physical body. That the only way that spirit can possess a body to have and maintain life is upon divine principles of righteousness.

The Traveler

Did I write "only" anywhere? Why do you seem to take what I say as an all or nothing statement?

There is a difference between opportunity and choice. The opportunity and the choice are two different things. After Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights He was tempted with bodily things, food, power, fame. Just because He was presented with these things does not mean He sinned. Satan was given power over things of this world to bruise the heel of man. The body is of this world, the dust of this world. So, Satan has his influence via the body. Therefore, being subject to the body is being subject to Satan, like you said. I don't disagree with you there except the idea that you are missing how it is done. By me saying it is via the body does not disagree with anything you are saying in this post.

If the spirit chooses carnal over spiritual then the spirit is changed. And, like the verse you mentioned, whatever spirit or what is in the heart when we leave this world will stay with us in the next. In other words, if our heart is turned toward the influences of the body (worldly carnal lusts) then it will continue to have that desire after. This is why the war in heaven was such a contested battle - why go to Earth and risk the chance of changing our nature, changing what we desire. We knew that some would turn towards the things of this world and lust after them - they would change their heart and be tempted by them. You think the people in the spacious building started out there? They were born there because their spirits were that way to begin with? It is because they were lured their while in their mortal state, being influenced by things that are carnal (Satanic).

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying everything the body does is evil or carnal. When we master those things then it becomes a temple and a holy place. Just like any tool is not inherently evil or good, like a gun or a car which can kill people but also do much good. But a person cannot shoot someone and commit murder in that way without a gun or a person cannot drive drunk and kill someone without a car. The opportunity does not exist without those tools. It is not the car or the gun that commits the murder but they do offer the opportunity. The body is similar, it is the opportunity to know good and evil. What we do with it will reveal our true spiritual nature. And that nature continues with our spirit into the next.

It is in the doing that we are judged in this world and not just in the words from our mouth. We already stated that we would obey his word in faith as part of the first estate test. That was also a test of faith but here the difference is a test of doing what we said we would do when presented with another option, that of carnal desires. Do you think we faced a test of carnal desires in the pre-mortal world?

[The world is wrong]

I stated as clearly as I could that evil come from self indulgence. And that a spirit can be as inclined towards self as a spirit with a body. My proof was the Fall of Lucifer and his followers. There is no reason to believe that physical body is the reason someone sins. My personal experience is that there will by no sin committed by myself until my spirit is complicit and active in the act. By body acting on its own without my spirit has never even once sinned.

The Traveler

Again, the body is not the reason someone sins but the opportunity, the presentation of contrasting natures. It is the 'do I fall asleep or do I stay awake and pray for the Lord' contrasting natures that we face that reveals our true desire of the heart. Your "proof" fails to show the need for the body. You repeatedly say the body is not needed, that it can do nothing and yet we believe we need a body to be like God. Things that are acted upon cannot sin, I never said anything different. But, that doesn't mean that things that are acted upon cannot act on their own. The body is not judged and therefore cannot sin. What our spirit does with the stewardship of the body though, will be judged.

If I drive a car that has a bad alignment and pulls to the left, I can either let it pull me to the left and go off the road or I can pull against it so I can go straight. If the car went straight, there would be no test of my driving skills. I could just let it go on 'auto-pilot' so-to-speak. The natural man is an enemy to God for a reason. It is because it requires action against that to show our allegiance in this world.

Children of God do not have a natural inclination to sin. Don't sell yourself so short! This is absolutely not true. We want to be like God. We shouted for joy to have this opportunity to be more like God. I am not sure why you want to believe that spirit children of God are inclined to rebel. Those that were already separated out for such an inclination are not here as man. Man is inclined to rebel but that is because the definition of "man" is a mortal, corrupted, natural, carnal body and an eternal son/daughter of God spirit in combination. In that setting "man" is prone to sin and decline. But, if we are to talk about the spirit alone, it is one that passed the first estate test which is no small achievement as it is rewarded with eternal glory of some level. (Of course I am separating out the spirits that failed the first estate test as they would be no part of the definition of "man") By coming to this world all sin, in other words, by receiving a mortal, corrupted, carnal, sensual body all sin. You cannot separate those two issues. It is your choice only to believe that the spirit is naturally evil. I choose to not believe that, which makes it a lot easier to love my neighbor as myself and with the love that Christ had for the sinner. Maybe sing "I am a child of God" a few more times to let it really settle in.

[The world is wrong]

I am not sure you read my post. I put forth the idea that the reason for the vail is so that we can live by faith and not by knowledge. The reason we live by faith and not by knowledge is so that there can be an atonement (forgiveness). Thus we can sin (tarnished by sin) - die and be forgiven because of ignorance in this life. Have you not wondered why we cannot be forgiven of sin after this life? The reason is that we can only be forgiven while we are living by faith - when we make choices based on knowledge - there can be no forgiveness.

The point of this life is to obtain knowledge of Good and Evil. It is my concern that from your understanding of being tested - there there is no fairness nor justice in how we are tested - because some are tested in a different manner than others - This cannot be if G-d is no respecter of persons. Also the scriptures are clear that the only way to receive blessings is by obedience to the specific principles upon which any particular blessing is predicated. How does someone - as you say - unexposed to a particular test, get the rewards?

Thus I see the purpose of this life is to achieve the knowledge between good and evil - and then with that knowledge and the freedom granted because of the Atonement of Christ, make a choice between good and evil. That is the test - the only test - that is the only purpose of mortality and the essence of the Plan of Happiness or Plan of Salvation.

I stated as clearly as I could that evil come from self indulgence. And that a spirit can be as inclined towards self as a spirit with a body. My proof was the Fall of Lucifer and his followers. There is no reason to believe that physical body is the reason someone sins. My personal experience is that there will by no sin committed by myself until my spirit is complicit and active in the act. By body acting on its own without my spirit has never even once sinned.

The Traveler

I never said the body is the reason someone sins, just the opportunity.

[The world is wrong]

Wow this is a most interesting discussion - thank you. As I said in a previous post - it appears to me that the first inclination or step toward evil is selfishness. Though all come into this mortal life innocent - I am not sure that we can include that with that innocence that there are absolutely no selfish tendencies. In fact I have not heard (documented) of even a single exception. Now I have not said that selfishness is sin but I have implied that sin is the inevitable result. With newborn children all parents quickly learn that selfishness is an inborn initial characteristic that comes standard with every model of children produced in mortality - don’t believe me? Check the owner’s manual. A newborn cries because if its discomfort - not that a parent will be comforted. Selfishness is by nature the default condition of all sentient beings - a natural condition that can only be overcome by intelligence, learning and discipline.

I believe the veil has the exact opposite effect - that the true nature is not hidden but manifested (See D&C 193:31) An inspection of the very next verse (32) indicates that it is the spirit of man and not his physical nature that does not receive the light and therefore causing the man to be worthy of condemnation.

I think you are a little confused with the term “redeem”. This term suggest that we are bought or purchased. I think because we are purchased we are able to return to the Father that you have thought that redeem means to return.

As to what I believe is the meaning of the fall of man. The term fall is a symbolic term. In scripture, Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden and likewise Lucifer was cast out from the society of heaven. There was no inadvertent trip or stumble and fall in the general sense where gravity pulls a person down. The fall of man was necessary and the only means that man could obtain knowledge of good and evil. Without the fall there could be no death and without death man (including Christ) would not die. Thus we come to knowledge of evil. Through the selfless sacrifice of Christ in the atonement we are redeemed and come to know good. Note that good can only be experienced though the denial of and sacrifice of self - which is a natural condition (individual nature) of all intelligent sentient beings that must be overcome to be worthy and eligible of living eternally with G-d. Regardless of how pure we were having passed our first estate we were not worthy or capable of eternal life in G-d’s presents.

If a person sins and then repents there is only one possible reason. When they sinned they really did not know what they were doing. When they came to understand better (light of truth) they repented. Thus the reason for sin followed by repentance is as Eve said - that she was beguiled or tricked and regretted it once she understood in the light of truth. The scripture says that sin committed because of such ignorance that G-d will wink at and there can and will be forgiveness but for those that sin against or in the light of truth there is no forgiveness. I do not see the dual nature in this that you are talking about????

The Traveler

I believe our true nature is revealed by this experience, I never said anything against that. But, I do believe it is not revealing in the sense of the outer man, it is revealed to God who can judge our stewardship and what is expected from this fallen existence stewardship whereby we are given small things to see if we are capable of bigger. The small stewardship is in terms of a "fallen" state, smaller than where we were before in intelligence and capability so that specific aspects of our nature can be tested. The test is in terms of seeing what we do more than what we know. We never had a test of spiritual character like this one in which we are exposed to a carnal nature that we take as self and behind a veil of forgetfulness as to most of the things we learned well being in the presence of God for thousands of years (if not longer), which is to say a test while under the influence of a dual nature, a carnal (not self) and spirit (self) "contrasting nature" (as the prophet David O. Mckay puts it) test. I say it is a part of our nature that was not previously revealed otherwise this life would serve no testing purpose, it would just be a chance to hand out bodies and we know that is not the only purpose of this life.

In your understanding, what is the purpose of the veil? It seems that you believe that our spirits have innate flaws or tendencies to go against the word. This would be different than simply needing more time to develop. If a baby can't walk at 6 months old, that is not a flaw but because the baby has not yet developed that ability and it is expected.

Could I say that a 3 month old has a tendency to smoke pot? Why not? Because, fortunately, at that point the baby hasn't been exposed (I would hope) to that kind of choice. If there is such a tendency it has not yet been revealed. Likewise, there was nothing revealed as to our tendencies to choose something that we had not yet been exposed to before coming here. So, the 3 month old is innocent as to any future choice to fall into the trappings of selfish choice.

Sin is a step away from the current path one is on. It is moving away from the straight and narrow or letting go of the iron rod. None of us start out in the great and spacious building or on the winding misty road away from the straight and narrow. It is something that is revealed and developed when offered the choice.

If I go bowling with the side rails up I will never get a gutter ball and will never have to suffer the consequences of the gutter ball. On the scorecard it will never show that I had a gutter ball. And I would likely never try to correct a gutter ball tendency if all I ever played was bowling with the side rails up. If I never played with the side rails down, then I could never say that it was part of my tendency to play gutter ball even if I never hit the rails with the rails up. It could not be revealed until the rails are down. With the rails down I would be tested in a different way. I might get nervous and different than before I might reveal my gutter ball tendency that I never showed before.

This life is a test of faith which reveals our true character as to faith minded tendencies. We were never tested in such a way. That is not to say that we didn't have tests of faith but to say that we didn't have tests of faith behind a veil in which we had carnal drives that we took as self. The question that we have to ask ourselves is how is this test different that the first estate test and how is it that this experience reveals that thing that the first did not. In your proposed view, you are not offering any reasonable explanation of how this test is any different than the previous one as to you the spirit is the same here and there. I am, at least, offering you a reasonable explanation of why this test is different, because it is one in which we are exposed to a dual nature, carnal and spirit. Whereas, in the previous life we just had the spirit nature not the carnal. If it is true that we did not have the carnal nature before this world then where did the carnal nature come from? Hello!!!, from the carnal nature producing entity we now have, the body! This is a new test, not the same test done over again. If it is the same test then why do we need the veil? In your view you cannot explain the purpose of the veil.

[The world is wrong]

Second: As a spiritual child of our Father in heaven we are by inheritance entitled to his spirit or the spirit of G-d. Now here in the term spirit there are two meanings. G-d has his individual spirit that is part of his self but there is another meaning for spirit and that is the influence of all that is good that drives the "nature" of G-d the Father. This is then his influence that drives us as we become one with the Father and his Son - Jesus Christ. I believe that the spiritual nature which is spoken of is that nature of G-d that is also given to us as his "spiritual" and covenant offspring but it is not the same as our individual spirit entity. Thus the goal is not to connect with our spirit but with the spirit of G-d. But this is only achieved through our spirit in spirit to spirit.

Thanks, I agree with most of your points.

I agree that there are multiple meanings to the word "spirit". It could mean spirit of God, our personal intelligent being spirit, gifts of the spirit, the spirit of the Lord, and even "evil spirit" which could mean the nature of that body, like when an evil spirit is removed or 'healed" from that body. But, I would more strongly state that we are spirit children of our Father in heaven and that means that we are not only entitled to his spirit but have the same nature. I believe we have, inherently, by matter of being children of God the spirit or as you put it, "the influence of all that is good that drives the "nature" of G-d the Father" already as part of our spirit nature. We have proven that by passing the first estate test. We do not have a nature for evil at the moment we pass the first estate test. If we did, we wouldn't have passed the first estate test. I do not believe we enter this life with any scars or evil tendencies from that first part of our development, we enter this life innocent, pure, clean and certainly worthy of being in the presence of God. That is how we enter into this world.

Now, that we are here, we cannot see that nature very well because of the veil. It is hard to even understand who we are or remember our past teachings and development. But if we were somehow able to step out behind the veil before we reach the age of accountability then we would see that our spirit is clean and pure. The issue is that by living in mortality, past the age of accountability we have made our spirit not as pure as it was before so we must repent. But if we repent it will be as white and pure as it was before, it will be as white as snow. Christ redeems us from that state of dirtiness. Redeeming, meaning it is as it was before, clean and pure. This was the whole battle in heaven's focus; 'why go to Earth and potentially dirty our nature when we already have a clean, pure nature?'. If that wasn't so, there would be nothing to lose. If we were already dirty, there would be no arguement; 'lets go down to Earth and at least then we have a chance to become clean'. But, that wasn't the issue. It is like what Adam faced, he was in a clean and pure state in the Garden of Eden but faced a road block that required a downward movement to overcome, it required a fall from where he was. As it is described in Gospel Principles as a downward but forward move. And then Christ can lift us beyond where we were to a state of glory after having gone lower than where we were as spirits alone.

Don't you believe we are fallen? Fallen from what level?

If a person sins and then repents and made pure, what is that person's nature, to sin or to repent? How can it be both? (my answer, we are dual beings here; your answer does not explain this) The nature of the spirit cannot be a repentant one and one that drives sinning at the same time. Either they desire to remain pure or they desire to sin, unless the desire to sin comes from a corrupted body plus being behind the veil in which the full force of the spirit is not available. In that way there is choice. A choice that we did not have before. If we had this situation before then there would be no reason to go into a fallen state. What is the purpose of the Fall if not to become fallen if we were already fallen by nature? The need for the Fall is because, in part, we were not fallen before.

[The world is wrong]

Our first estate is a point the we both agree upon. I was asking a different question concerning their nature - is the nature of Satan and his followers a physical nature or a spiritual nature? I do not agree that only because of our "physical" nature that we (or any "spiritual" child of G-d) sin and become a natural enemy of G-d. I think you are missing something very obvious and important - but then perhaps it is me that has missed the obvious? So I have asked this question in hopes that if you answer the question I have asked - we may become closer to a resolution of why we see this differently.

The Traveler

Ok, thanks.

I think we may agree that the spirit is marred by sinning and then it becomes part of that persons spiritual make up if they do not repent and become white as snow, renewed to their former cleanliness.

Comparing our "spiritual nature" with the nature of the spirits that have been cast out is comparing apples to oranges. Those that were cast out lost their innocence and experienced a permanent spiritual death. Comparing the nature of one who is spiritually dead to one who's spirit is alive with at least some light of Christ is comparing apples to oranges. Change in "spiritual nature" can only occur during a time of accountability. After pronouncement of the status of the first estate, in other words, after we passed the first estate test, could we fail it? Likewise, after the successful completion of the second estate test could we fail it in the future?

D&C ; " 43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his aprobation—that by his bnatural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;

45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.

46 But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;

47 Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me;"

What evil could our spirit self "list to obey" after the first estate and before the second estate began in which we are told her that the little children cannot sin until they become accountable? Meaning there is a time in which we are not accountable.

If I talk to my friend in Brazil and ask her if she likes root beer, she will say I don't know, I've never tasted it. Would you say then that it is in her nature to either like it or not? It is not even part of her nature as it hasn't been put to the test. The temptation has to be introduced and then we have to "list to obey" it to make it part of our nature. All those who passed their first estate have not "listed to obey" any evil up to the point of becoming accountable again after the age of accountability is reached in this life. If they don't reach the age of accountability they remain in their list-to-obey righteousness nature.

[The world is wrong]

If someone stands before two doors not knowing what is behind the doors - I do not believe that as a choice - at the very best it is a guess. One can only act if there is knowledge and intelligence - without knowledge and intelligence one of necessity is acted upon. Also note from the scripture the only choice in agency is between good and evil. Now, you are very good with logic - then what is the good and evil that all that come into this life come to experience and know? (including the new born that only lives a few seconds - hint hint)?

The Traveler

Using that example, would it be a choice if you believed God to tell you to choose one door and the "natural man" says to pick the other? The choice is in terms of expressing whom one obeys. I agree, it is not a choice based on knowing all the things that follow the choice. But, we don't need that to pass that test now, that was the first estate test. Now, we face a choice based in faith.

[The world is wrong]

Are Satan and his angels spiritual beings or a physical beings (natural man? (trick question?).

The Traveler

They are beings that did not pass the first estate test and they have been cast down for a period of time with the power given for a short period of time to bruise the heel of man.

[What is grace?]

In laymans terms... what does it truly mean? I thought I understood it, but I'm learning that I don't.

Grace is like being accepted to college, it is a great opportunity that you could not offer yourself alone but you still have to take the classes, study and pass the exams.

[A dream about smoking]

Before anyone suggests I think this dream is prophetic or anything of the sort, no. It is just a dream but it makes me think.

I dreamt that the church decided that smoking would be ok for those who wanted to smoke. We all went to church but the doors were not open yet. People started breaking out their smokes while we waited. A cloud of smoke hung over everyone. Those who did not smoke started complaining about the stench of the smoke making very pointed remarks. I was one of those. The doors opened but only the nonsmokers were allowed in. We went in and took our seats around the chapel. Then the smokers were allowed in. They filled the pews and kept smoking. The bishop was one who smoked. (not a recognizable bishop, just generic) The smell was terrible. I wondered about the temple. Would they be allowed to smoke in the temple?

After I woke up the dream stayed clear. It seemed to me that the smokers were people who were committing visible sins. The rest of us had less visible sins yet we sat there and condemned the visible sins of others as stinking. I am not quite sure what my dream was getting at but I do think it was trying to make a point to me. :)

Anyway was just wondering what lesson I might take from the dream. Any ideas?

Yes, the lesson is that the brain has a wonderful ability to imagine and create.