Seminarysnoozer
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Posts posted by Seminarysnoozer
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It is my understanding that marriage is an element of the LDS divine eternal - going for all the glory may work for you and your happiness but I have not found much success in the attitude or the effort that it is all about me getting all the glory or even just my fair share.
And to be honest - I do not understand at all how you can say that we must have an eye single to the glory of G-d then in the next breath say that we must have that eye single to the glory of G-d so that we can have all such glory for ourselves. As for myself - I really do not want to closely associate with those convinced getting even the glory they deserve is really what life is all about.
One attribute of G-d that I personally am drawn to and respect greatly is his willingness to forgo all the glory stuff and condescend for the single purpose of the benefit of someone else. I honestly do not believe glory is all that important to G-d - which, at least for me, is the prime reason I am willing to let him suffer that burden. And if I must suffer that burden of glory with him it is only because I owe him such for all that he has done for me.
Then I guess you do not understand what is His glory. His glory is to have His focus on someone else. His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man. Why does the scripture say "with an eye single to the glory of God" and not 'with an eye single to God'? I think it is very important to understand why the word "glory" is in that phrase. The importance of the word "glory" is to understand what is mean by "glory". Christ is focused on the glory of God when He condescends. He is focused on God's glory when He expresses His love for us.
If his work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal life of man, how can you in the next phrase say "I honestly do not believe glory is all that important to God". Then, you are saying that bringing about the immortality and Eternal Life of man is not all that important. They are hand in hand, one cannot be separated from the other. The glory is in the giving and showing of love. What is so hard to understand about that?
One cannot have faith without hope. Hope for what? Eternal life, we hope for all things. This is the admonition of Paul. Do you not believe in the 13th article of faith?
Moroni 7; " 40 And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning ahope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?
41 And what is it that ye shall ahope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have bhope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life ceternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.
42 Wherefore, if a man have afaith he bmust needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope."
We must have hope to be raised unto life eternal!! What is life eternal? The life that God has.
Gospel Principles, chapter 47; "Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.", "Our Heavenly Father is perfect, and He glories in the fact that it is possible for His children to become like Him. His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39)."
D&C 132; 19; "...in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory."
Gospel Principles Chapter 47 describes what is received by those that obtain Eternal Life; "Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:
1.They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).2. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase. 3. They will receive a fulness of joy. 4. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20)."
For those that don't know, the 13th Article of Faith states; "...we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."
James Faust; "I witness from the depths of my soul that we are engaged in His holy work, to which, if we are faithful, we can be crowned with honor, glory, and eternal life. (See D&C 75:5.)"
D&C 75; " 5 And thus, if ye are faithful ye shall be laden with many asheaves, and bcrowned with honor, and glory, and immortality, and eternal life."
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This is a question that gets asked quite frequently regarding those women who can't bear children in mortal life.
Read what Gramps has to say:
http://askgramps.org/23914/woman-cant-bear-child-mortal-life-will-millenium
To be clear about what he is saying is that during the millenium all the blessings that would have been available can be righted and quotes; D&C 18; " 15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one asoul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!" So, he explains that the spiritual sense of the word "seed" will come into play, the bringing of souls to Christ, called seed.
The article doesn't give specifics as to how that will take place but suggests it is more of a "sharing the gospel" kind of seed, "They will find themselves surrounded by their children in the faith who remain grateful for the nourishing watchcare that brought the prodigals home." (i.e. - conversion)
In other words, those women will have opportunity to be missionaries and help convert souls in the millenium to help them realize their Abrahamic covenants. The Millenium will be their chance to "labor all (their) days in crying repentance". ... is what Gramps said.
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I'd suggest, and wonder if some LDS might agree, that we will be judged for what we know in our heads. That is, we don't get less punishment because we close our hearts to a gospel truth. If we had heard/understood a clear presentation of truth, then our refusal to consider it will mitigate in our favor.
We believe that was the test that took place before coming here, what is called the "first estate". That is where we had all the facts, all the truth before us. Everyone here chose correctly and therefore will merit a Kingdom of Heaven through the saving grace of Christ. The test of mortality was meant to take place with minimal information as to reflect our true, primitive nature and drives, "the desire of our heart".
Now we face the test of true character, whether we will actually do the thing we said we would or not. It is a test of integrity, or 'how far would you go?'
We all believe in Christ, we sometimes call this the "light of Christ" and it is ours to ignore as we chose to ignore our spiritual side in this life. Sin, then is a reflection of character, not a mistake that someone can say, "oops, my bad." This probationary period we call mortality is the only chance we have to change character, a "change of heart," or being born again. After this, our trajectory is set.
I explain it to my children this way; A soldier in boot camp will vow to never leave a fallen soldier behind, they all agree to that standard (like what we agree to in pre-mortal life). But, in the heat of the battle only some will actually follow through with that standard (integrity - the test of mortality). Just like in this life, only some will actually follow through with their professed belief in the God's plan, to require a Savior, and have enough faith to follow His gospel despite being in the "heat of the battle".
So, sin is really bad in terms of it reflecting our true nature, our difficult to change character. It is a deep hole that is difficult to get out of but it can be done through repentence.
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In our faith, we understand, or at least it is discussed in more detail, the fact that we are to live mortality, the second estate test, in the flesh. In other words, the test we face was intended to be done in a fallen, corrupted state, not in a condition where everything is perfectly laid out with perfect words and language and transmitted without alteration in which we would have to rely on confirmation from another source (the Holy Ghost).
The perfectly laid out in no uncertain language test already took place, that was the first estate test. We all passed that test. Now, we are taking the test that requires dependency on the Lord and forces us to express where our heart's passion resides. The choice becomes a choice when one has to rely on spiritual influences to take in the message and understand it as opposed to just reading the text in a secular fashion. The scriptures present the material in such a way as to accomplish the purpose that Jesus described when asked about why He spoke in parables. The flaw is in man's interpretaton. The scriptures are written in such a way as to allow for man's flawed interpretation on purpose. Again, this is not the first estate test done over again.
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In general it is thought that what has become scripture is unquestionably untainted revelation from G-d. I am wondering how many believe that to be the case. Or is it possible that from time to time flaws and mistakes are introduced even into scripture for various reasons? In general it is LDS doctrine that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book of scripture yet in the title page it says
How do you know what to believe?
As Joseph Smith explained in the title page of the Book of Mormon; "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ."
Of course there are flaws, our language is flawed, how we perceive things as humans is flawed. But the scriptures can be a source of spirit to spirit communication. The Holy Ghost can witness of the truths found in the scriptures.
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Note the concept - "to give up" as well as the idea of "a greater purpose or goal". Though you say that we are to act with an eye single to the glory of G-d (which interestingly is not nor has it ever been to glorify himself) - you are insistent that the ends result is and must be our own glory that is increased. The truth of divine condescension is, and I am not sure you really understand, that the glory never will ever be yours, or mine or anyone else’s to have for ourselves.
Well then I am not sure what gospel you are talking about. We are told in LDS teachings that we can have ALL that God has, that is the definition of eternal life. God's work is to provide His children with everything He has, that is what He wants because He loves us so much. I love Him so much that I want to be like Him in every way, all His glory and joy (which is what glory is). His work and glory is to give us His glory. He loves us that much.
Like the story of the prodigal son, our inheritance is ours to loose. But, if we follow God's will and not our own whims like the prodigal son did then we can have all the Father has. So, gracious is His love that even if we make a mistake while in this mortal realm He gave us a way to come back and still receive ALL. Just like the sons in the story of the prodigal son, it is possible to have all the father has without the father giving up anything. The father, in that story, only lost something when a portion was taken as the son's full inheritance.
We can have God's glory and ALL he has for ourself but certainly not by ourself. If by definition, God's glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man than it was never something that could be of exclusive propietaryship, it has to of inclusive propietaryship. It would be impossible for Him to maintain exclusive ownership if His glory is dependent on sharing it, which is the definition of Eternal life - a life of empathetic sharing. In other words, if we didn't receive it for ourself, there is no glory in the act of giving it. That cannot be separated.
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Your are 100% wrong both in your understanding and interpertation - you do not see photons or light - you see other objects that transmit or reflect light - but the light itself you do not see.
Wow! You are really going to have to explain yourself here. What comes off the object whether it is reflected or not is light. What is it that is reflected off the object that our eyes are perceiving if is not light (like you are saying)???
Whether the light is reflected or not it is still "light" that is transmitted via photons, what's the dif? The basketball bouncing off the backboard that goes through the hoop is still a basketball even though it was reflected.
By common definition; Light is defined by "what can be seen by the human eye".
Common definition of light: “electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength that travels in a vacuum with a speed of about 186,281 miles (300,000 kilometers) per second; specifically : such radiation that is visible to the human eye.”
Photons, which are bosons, can be converted into physical (or chemical) energy. This is what happens in the eye via opsins, in other words, discerned by our "non-pure" eyes, but we are told only pure eyes can perceive spirit matter, so therefore bosons are not spirit matter. This happens to be a direct perception by the non-pure eyes but anything that is discerned by our physical self, as opposed to spiritually discerned, cannot be spirit matter.
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It looks like you are as puzzled as Enoch was at seeing a G-d who suffers. He asks G-d three times not ‘Why’ but ‘How’ he can weep. And keep in mind this is pre-condescension.
Certainly we are taught that G-d is full of compassion and one definition of compassion is “to suffer together”.
To me it’s simple, G-ds love is greater than ours and so is his suffering.
If not then perhaps we have his nature wrong and he truly exists without body, parts or passions.
I agree. This is a concept, though, that I don't think Traveler is admitting to, which is that the last shall be made the First. Because the Lord descended bellow all He is made the First. That is not to speak of the "why", I agree it is because he follows the first and second greatest commandments which is to love God with all your heart (an eye single to the glory of God - like I have been stating) and the second is to love thy neighbor as thy self. When applying those two commandments one becomes humble and is a servant to those she loves, suffering together. This is our example and how we all can become exalted. The end result is exaltation, to rise above our previous status by descending. This is the way for us.
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “The condescension of the Father of our spirits, in providing a sacrifice for His creatures, a plan of redemption, … ought to inspire everyone who is called to be a minister of these glad tidings, to improve his talent that he may gain other talents, that when the Master sits down to take an account of the conduct of His servants, it may be said, Well done, good and faithful servant.” As the Father and Son both condescended from lofty and glorious stations to fulfill Their missions, we also can become the true servants in doing Their work, following Their example."
The Lord's instruction to Joseph Smith when he was suffering in jail, falsly accussed; " 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the apit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the bdeep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to chedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of dhell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee eexperience, and shall be for thy good.
8 The aSon of Man hath bdescended below them all. Art thou greater than he?"
In other words, the Lord's love serves another purpose which is to be an example to us on how to become like Him and our Father in Heaven. To become like our Heavenly Father, to ascend to such heights and "to be for thy good." Some of the words associated with Christ’s condescension that we are to learn and emulate are; descend, love, mercy, grace, suffering, submission, obedience, service, sacrifice, redeem, humility, minister, judged, and slain.
Nephi was asked by an angel "“Knowest thou the condescension of God?" He answered he didn't know and then he was told. He was told not only to be in awe of such sacrifice but to learn that that is the only way to exaltation, to reach greater heights. That is Gods work and therefore Christ work and if we want to enjoy similar happiness then we follow that example. To be in awe of His great love is step one for us, to be all amazed that He would do such a thing, the intention of such an example, though, is that we emulate that same love so that we may be exalted in Him. This is the bigger picture. It is to answer the question, why is love the greatest commandment? It is the way to eternal life.
Traveler said; "I am having a hard time with the idea that G-d remains omnipotent and at the same time is able to suffer. By the very definition of "Omnipotent" and "suffer" the two cannot refer to the same being and maintain any semblance to what the two terms actually mean; the two are mutually exclusive. If G-d were to suffer to any degree then he, by definition, is not omnipotent or infinitely powerful. G-d would not and could not be any more powerful than that which caused him to suffer."
I am trying to explain how the suffering is an act that makes one greater, not lesser. The dissconect is in not realizing that the expression of love in this way makes one greater, more like God.
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I am more confused now than before concerning your point of view – Sorry, I must be missing something of critical importance. Though my questions may seem harsh – I am trying to get to the justification in your reasoning. Does this mean that you do not believe in the principle of sacrifice - because in the big picture one is just selfishly getting more for themselves? Or that the scriptures are incorrect (incorrect little picture view) in teaching the condescension of G-d? Jesus was only making himself greater because he saw the bigger picture? So that it is possible that his actual motivation was his own increased glorification in the bigger picture?
You are trying to imply that I suggested purpose in His act when I didn't. I just said that was the result. His purpose is to show love to His Father as our sacrifice should always be with "an eye single to the glory of God." Christ is our example in that regard. God's purpose is to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man. So, it comes full circle. When we sacrifice with an eye single to the glory of God, the result is joy and happiness, more than what we sacrificed. That applies to Christ as well. "The principle of Sacirfice" as you are questioning is based in the purpose, with an eye single to the glory of God not whether quantity gained is greater or less than what was put in. Yes, I believe in that principle. The "principle of sacrifice" does not apply to anyone who is not doing it with an eye single to the glory of God. That kind of sacrifice does not count for anything.
I think you are confused because of your perception of sacrifice. According to LDS.org, sacrifice is defined as; "To sacrifice is to give up something valuable or precious, often with the intent of accomplishing a greater purpose or goal."
D&C 98: "13 And whoso alayeth down his life in my cause, for my name’s sake, shall find it again, even life eternal.
14 Therefore, be not aafraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will bprove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, ceven unto death, that you may be found worthy." The Lord instructs us that if we lay down our life, give everything we have, we will get it back, "Therefore, be not afraid... even unto death..." He instructs us to reason this way. The key, though, is to do it "for my name's sake". Nothing is lost in the process, it is only gained.
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Finrock:
I tend to agree with your observation. Because of my Physic background I have wondered if the two types of particles in physics are indications of physical and spiritual matter. That fermions are in essence physical matter and bosons are in essence spirit matter. We are told in scripture that there was a spiritual creation prior to the physical creation and that all things have spirit elements or as I like to think that there is a symmetry and order to creation that unites spirit matter with physical matter.
If anyone is interested in discussing this in depth – perhaps we should start another thread.
Photons which are bosons are absorbed by rhodopsin in the retina which allows for vision. What you are suggesting seems to be directly contradictory to D&C 131; "7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All aspirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by bpurer eyes;
8 We cannot asee it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all bmatter."
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Sometimes you seem to interpret things that are a surprise to me and I am not sure if I understand what you are saying or trying to say. For example I am not sure what you mean by "backward movement". I would think death is quite a backward movement - are you saying that Jesus really did not die? In general I believe condescension would imply at least a temporary backward movement.
Also I would think wisdom has some spiritual quality. Are you saying the wisdom of Christ spoken of in the scripture you quoted, was not related in any way to his spiritual wisdom but only worldly (carnal and sensual wisdom only)? Are you saying in some roundabout way that Jesus (his spirit) was not omnipotent (perfect) prior to his coming to earth?
I suppose I am trying to convey a bigger picture view, the result of Christ coming here was a step forward for all including Himself.
As far as the other issue of omnipotent, my views as to what that means may be different than most and I don't want to derail the thread. The short answer is that when we become glorified beings we will have access to ALL. By having access to all one becomes omnipotent. We sometimes refer to this as the keys and authority of the Priesthood. The omnipotent status is not so much a description of self as it is with whom an individual associates. When asked about doing difficult things such as a camel passing through the eye of a needle, Jesus responded; " 27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, aWith men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are bpossible." It matters who you are with.
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I am having a hard time with the idea that G-d remains omnipotent and at the same time is able to suffer. By the very definition of "Omnipotent" and "suffer" the two cannot refer to the same being and maintain any semblance to what the two terms actually mean; the two are mutually exclusive. If G-d were to suffer to any degree then he, by definition, is not omnipotent or infinitely powerful. G-d would not and could not be any more powerful than that which caused him to suffer.
If as you imply his unchanged spirit remained infinite it would not matter what his dual physical body was or could add to or subtract as long as it was finite – the sum of the two would still be infinite and there would be no actual condescension. By the very definition of infinite nothing could be added or subtracted that would or could change the sum. If there was a change then by the simplest of rhetorical logic – we would have iron clad proof G-d is not infinite and all-powerful.
What could be temptation to an all-powerful being? The three temptations of Christ in the wilderness would be laughably absurd. There is no way that not eating for any amount of time would make an all-powerful being hungry. It would mean that hunger is more powerful than the being that becomes hungry. And giving anything to an omnipotent being is a ruse of logic. Even jumping off anything would not even need angles to save an omnipotent being that would never need to rely on other beings for anything - ever. Is the gravity of earth greater than the power of the G-d that created the entire universe?
Without condescending from “all powerful” and “omnipotence” the life of Jesus recorded in scripture becomes nothing but an absurdly silly meaningless and pointless charade. The condescendence of G-d is the most stunning act of love, compassion and suffering that I cannot wrap my mind around what mankind means to the omnipotent G-d. I just do not understand why anyone would take anything away from what an incredible sacrifice was made. But most of all – I do not understand such a G-d – especially that such a G-d would ever send someone off to hell that cared at all or understood at all what G-d has done already has done for them. And rebelling against such a being makes no sense to me – even a selfish rebellion makes no sense.
His spirit remains eternal just like our spirits remain eternal, they are not destroyed in the process unless we let them be. We can be in the flesh without being of the flesh. I think you have a hard time with that concept. What does it mean to you to be in the flesh but not of the flesh? How is that possible?
While one is in the flesh one has to live according to the flesh but at the same time one does not have to become of the flesh. That is what the gospel does, it protects us from having to be "of the flesh". Jesus forsake the things of this world including his own flesh. He is our example. Those that do not forsake the flesh take it in and become like it, carnal and natural. Christ' spirit did not take any of those features in as its own despite having to experience them thus remaining pure. Exposure to evil does not make one automatically evil. One has to take in those characteristics as their own just like one would have to do to become more Christ like.
Let me ask you this, does the veil permanently affect the character of the spirit that is behind it or only temporarily lessens its ability? Once the veil is removed, is a spirit changed because of the veil itself or is any change only related to choices that are made while behind the veil. I think you are implying that putting oneself behind the veil would change the character of the spirit, as you have so implied in other threads regarding spiritual separation from God. I believe the light of Christ allows us to not be so affected, which allows for this life to be a probationary period and not a sentence. This life is not a permanent effect, it is temporary, and even for Christ was temporary.
This life is like a flight simulator. If we crash the plane on the flight simulator it is not the end of the world for us. We can learn from our mistakes. If one goes onto the flight simulator and doesn't crash the plane (i.e - Christ, in this metaphor) but is able to appreciate all of our crashes for having done it himself, is not lessened by the experience just because he didn't crash the plane. He doesn't remain in "flight simulator" status when the program is stopped and neither do we.
I think the other thing to keep in mind is that Christ is our brother. He had not yet gone through all the steps to be exactly like God as He is now. This life propelled him above his previous status. If one does not believe that then that person does not appreciate the necessity of the resurrected, glorified body to become like God. One of my speculations (this is not gospel doctrine) is that possibly one of the things a body allows for that the spirit alone has a more difficult time with (maybe) is empathy. Christ had not yet received a fullness of the Father's status until after the resurrection with a glorified body. Christ had to take the "flight simulator" class, the preparatory class to have the real plane later.
As L. Tom Perry said; "And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. [Luke 2:51–52]
Using these attributes that described the Savior as he grew to manhood seems to be a good measure for your progress at this special time in your lives.
When the scriptures record that Jesus increased in stature, he was perfecting his physical body to house his eternal spirit."
In other words, this life, for Jesus was a movement forward, "increase in stature and in favour with God". This life for Christ was not a backward movement.
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Good Afternoon Seminarysnoozer. I hope you're having a good day!
Although the specifics, as you stated, aren't available to us, I do think thinking in terms of male and female are useful in providing some answers to the question of the differences between spirit matter and matter. Male and female are basically the same but there are some important and eternal differences which we know compliment and fulfill each role. If we take the position that symbolically the male is spirit and the female is body we can learn some things that I think are significant and helpful to our individual eternal natures. I think this venture is best fulfilled on an individual basis as we ponder these things in our heart and mind, therefore I will not be sharing any particular personal insights on these forums.
-Finrock
Thanks for your response. Obviously, this is an interest of mine, so if anyone has any insights that are sharable on these forums I would appreciate them.
On a side note, Finrock, do you think there are specific gender differences that are important for those that find theirself in the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom? Could you elaborate on what those are? (If willing and able).
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I'm going to be using metaphors again. They aren't perfect but hopefully they will help in making my thoughts understandable.
The temporal body is the instrument that refines the spirit. I believe that the spirit without the body is incomplete in the same sense as the man without the woman is incomplete. A fullness of glory requires that both eternal elements, matter and spirit matter, be united as one. I also believe that not only does the physical body provide a means for our spirit to be refined it also acts as an alloy. In order to convert iron in to steel it not only requires that impurities be removed from the iron but it also requires that alloys be added to the iron to produce the steel. Once these alloys are added to the iron and steel is produced, the alloy and the iron are one. Our bodies act as that alloy that allows our spirit to become exalted and our spirit acts as an alloy that allows our body to become exalted. There is no fullness without each component.
And yes, the infusion does not occur during our temporal existence. It is something that will happen after our resurrection.
I'm glad that you are doing well.
-Finrock
P.S. We talk much about our spirit being refined but I also think that our spirit in turn refines our body. As our spirit becomes more in control our bodies can begin to literally glow with light and glory. Eventually, as we progress and our spirit becomes more refined it in turn glorifies our body which in the conclusion of our salvation will emanate light and glory brighter than the noon-day sun.
Thanks, I think your metaphor beautifully describes the need to have a body but the specifics are missing. That isn't your fault, I don't think it has been revealed. It is amazing to me that one of the core principles of our gospel is that God has a body of flesh and bones and we need one to be like Him but we really do not know why that is. We don't know what is it that the body has that is different from the spirit, other then they being two different forms of matter and when they are mixed they form some special alloy - metaphorically speaking, we do not know the properties of the differences between the two that creates such a strong alloy.
The body, by definition, has to add something to the soul, it is a part of our soul, our character. It is not just something that enhances our character like a good book or a great college course, it is part of our soul itself. What aspect of the soul, of our character does the body have that the spirit does not? To answer this question one has to first admit that the body alone has some aspect of character or soul. How could it be part of our soul or character if it doesn't contain soul or character traits by itself. If one realizes that it does, by itself, carry soul and character traits, which ones are things that the spirit alone could not come up with?
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Good Afternoon Seminarysnoozer. I hope you've been well! :)
Just sharing a thought. The spirit and the body must become one. For Heavenly Father there is no real distinction between His spirit and His body. They are perfectly united. I weak metaphor: Rather than God's spirit existing inside His body, His spirit and His body are infused together.
-Finrock
I think so in terms of their functioning together, their purpose etc. and not opposing each other but obviously there is something that each of the entities brings that the other alone does not have and in that way required to be like God. What does the body bring that the spirit alone could not provide? Otherwise, God and us could just be spirit alone if the body did the same exact thing the spirit could by itself. And it is not just for procreation as the spirits in the Terrestrial and Telestial will need a glorified body to exist in those Kingdoms of glory too.
The "infusion" does not occur in this life. In this life there is a distinction, as we are dual beings with opposing natures described recently by Elder Nelson and Bednar, Oct Conference and David O. Mckay previously as well as outlined extensively by Paul.
Thanks, hope you are also doing well.
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Is there a third nature? Which one is it that chooses either the carnal physical nature or the spiritual nature? What is it in us that is making the choice between our physical or spiritual that is not one or the other but has such power over us to determine choice that you are talking about? What is the inner man that chooses between the physical or spiritual? It cannot be physical or we would have a metric for it. And according to you it cannot be spirit or it would of that nature, always choose the spiritual.
When real choices are made through agency it is done by the spirit because it matters not what the body choses, it does what comes natural all by itself. If the spirit chooses to do nothing by way of its agency, to let the body run on auto-pilot so-to-speak, then a person becomes carnal by nature, they become stiffnecked, hardened and have a progressively more difficult time recognizing the influence of the spirit and the individual is responsible for such a choice. To listen to the promptings from the spirit requries being spiritually minded as described by Paul. It is difficult, it is not natural, it is not the default way to act, it is the path less traveled. The majority of people in this world do not listen to their spiritual influences and therefore let the body take control, which is the same as letting Satan take control, it is the enemy to God.
The "third nature" is the soul, it is the sum total of body plus spirit influence. What is ultimately done is a reflection of which side has the greater influence, the carnal vs. the spiritual. It is often a changing spectrum, at times the spirit is more powerful, often when a person says they can feel the spirit, that is a time when the spirit is more in control. The default control lies with the body, if the spirit does nothing to take control and master the passions of the body.
God will judge when the situation is reasonably balanced between the two forces to make a judgement. For example, the Apostles sleeping in the Garden with Jesus was not described as a sin. Why not? The body is weak, it was not capable of such an act even when the spirit is willing. What is done is not a reflection of the will of the spirit. Their spirits wanted to stay awake and watch and pray but they couldn't because the body is weak. This life was never intended to let the spirit have 100% control, our bodies are not capable of such a thing until they are made perfected through resurrection. We have to take the test in the flesh and according to the flesh.
Metaphorically; If I am riding a horse in a horse race I wouldn't expect my horse to stop in the middle of the race and type on a computer. It can run and move and carry me but I wouldn't expect the horse to do all the things I could do. Likewise, our spirits are much more advanced than our current fallen body reflects. The "horse" is not a reflection of the total capabilities of the rider even though it can be controled by the rider. Likewise, our current actions are a reflection of the abilities of the body but directed or not directed by the spirit. When the horse is not directed by the rider then it is the wild form, or the natural form. The wild horse would not run around the track in the same way a rider on a broken horse would when the rider is in control. And the rider alone could not run around the track in the same way the horse could. We are instructed to come to God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, that is the description of when the spirit is in control. Without a broken heart and a contrite spirit, the natural body drives take over and the influence from the spirit is lessened.
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To be clear the first or initial spiritual death is part of the fall. I am suggesting that all those that participate in a mortal experience made a choice in the pre-existence to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil which brought about our mortal experience. Two points – first is that the separation is from G-d the Father – this appears to possibly have taken place prior to and extending beyond our life on earth. That is that when Adam and Eve left Eden that heaven was changed also and that the spirits left heaven in exile of the Father and that we will not return until we are taken back to the Father by Christ – who is the keeper of the way.
I am glad you pointed this out. Thanks for being patient with the discussion. I agree with what you are saying here.
I think that decision was the first estate test. I don't think the effects of it, though, were really experienced until the spirit is placed in the body.
If my teenage daughter says, "I am planning on moving out when I am 21", I wouldn't immediately cut her off from all my support and escort her out the front door at that moment. Likewise, I think we all agreed with the plan of happiness and therefore agreed to "partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" well before all the events took place to make it happen. I believe that Adam and Eve agreed to play their role before they were placed in the Garden of Eden and in fact I think they were called to do it. Just because we decide to do something doesn't mean it is already done. Things were first created spiritually then physically. We say we will and then we show that we do what we said we would.
I would also suggest that being made "alive in Christ" negates the effects of being separated from God the Father, at least to the point that it has no long lasting effects on our soul. If we don't believe that then we lessen the power of Christ, He would not have saving power. We can be in the flesh without being of the flesh. We are only "of" the flesh when we sin. Those that are whole need no physician, as is stated in Moroni 8. I think it requires a testimony of Christ' saving power to believe that children are "whole" in Christ before the age of accountability. Their spirits are not dead as they are alive in Christ even though they are separated from God the Father. And that condition was from the "foundation of the world". So, even if what you are saying is true, that we were immediately separated from the presence of God (even though it says only a third of the host of heaven were cast out) we were still held alive, untouched through the eternal effects of the atonement of Christ, we were kept alive, not spiritually dead as are all children until the age of accountability.
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Remember who you (really) are, a child of God.
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We are told that in the resurrection that the body will be restored to a proper and perfect frame. I am inclined to wonder if the primary difference between the Celestial and other kingdoms is actually something that our individual spirit brings with it to the resurrection.
It makes sense to me that there is symmetry to that which is spiritual and that which is physical and that because of the symmetry both are affected by each other.
If the body affects the spirit, specifically, what is it affecting that couldn't be achieved by the spirit alone, while in a Kingdom of glory (not while here in mortality)?
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I was suggesting the possibility be considered that: like physical death had come to all the earth - that spiritual death; meaning separation from the Father, took place in the pre-existence for those destined to come to earth. There are scriptures that would seem to indicate that possibility. That there was an immediate impact - not a far off, in some distant future, theoretical possible impact and that the plan having been implemented - that the point of no return had been crossed for all the spirits on the journey.
I am glad you brought this up because I guess I was assuming this was common knowledge but there is two spiritual deaths, the one caused by the fall brought on by all mankind but redeemed by the atonement, so its effects are not felt but puts us under the binding obligation to be obedient to our Lord and the second spiritual death which is caused by sin. At least according to LDS.org, the spiritual death from the Fall is something experienced while we have life on Earth but everyone is redeemed from it.
LDS.org describes this well under spiritual death; "The Book of Mormon prophet Samuel taught, “All mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual” (Helaman 14:16). During our life on the earth, we are separated from God's presence. Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems everyone from this spiritual death. Samuel testified that the Savior's Resurrection “redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death. . . . Behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord” (Helaman 14:16-17). The prophet Lehi taught that because of the Atonement, “all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him” (2 Nephi 2:10).
Further spiritual death comes as a result of our own disobedience. Our sins make us unclean and unable to dwell in the presence of God (see Romans 3:23; Alma 12:12-16, 32; Helaman 14:18; Moses 6:57). Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ offers redemption from this spiritual death, but only when we exercise faith in Him, repent of our sins, and obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel (see Alma 13:27-30; Helaman 14:19; Articles of Faith 1:3)."
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Are you saying that in essence that we end up where our spirit wills us to go dispite what our physical nature desires?
We will end up with which one we choose, the promptings from the spirit or the carnal drives from the body. That is the choice and as Elder Bednar stated, that is the test of this life.
Even though we have a hard time doing so, God can separate out what is emanating from the spirit vs the brain. That is what is meant by God seeing the inner man. He will judge based in our heart's desire, which is the desire of the spirit, in other words, the will of the spirit. He will take into account all the variables that we cannot at this time such as whether it really was possible to overcome the body's drives or not. If a particular physical drive is surmountable such as fasting on Sunday despite our brain telling us to eat, then He will judge accordingly. If, in a particular situation, the body's drives are insurmountable, such as the Apostles being unable to overcome their fatigue in the Garden and stay and watch, then I don't think it will be counted as sin when their desire was to stay and watch.
This is why I give the more extreme examples that I think everyone would agree with such as when a person with Tourette's yells out an explitive in the middle of church or how we view someone with Down's syndrome. Everyone has a "thorn in the flesh" that presents some challenge against the desires of the spirit. As David O. McKay stated, these are opposing natures. It was intended that way, there needs be opposition in all things but the one who chooses nature, the natural man, over the spiritual influences is an enemy to God.
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My question was specific to spirits - thought I agree with other things you included. Do you think it is possible that when Adam and Eve left the garden and all things changed on earth - is it possible that at the moment of the fall that the circumstance of all the spirits destined to come to earth experienced a change to their circumstance as well?
Change to their circumstance or change to the spirit itself? Their circumstance changed in that they were allowed to move forward and onward. The way to become more like God had opened up. Had they taken a step towards becoming more like God just because Adam and Eve Fell? No, so their spiritual make up had not changed yet, just the opportunity (I guess what you are calling circumstance) had changed. It had changed in a positive way.
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I honestly do not know what you mean by spirit. It appears to me you are talking in circles and speaking of things that have no meaning in the context of our discussion. Like - What is written in the heart??? Why is that any different than wiring of the brain? My point has to do with what effects the spirit. It appears to me that the fall – being spiritually separated from the Father which is spiritual death is something that affects the spirit. The scriptures tell us the Lucifer was "perfect" in the beginning. But something went wrong with him - not physically wrong but spiritually wrong.
If it were not for the atonement of Christ all would be subject to Satan – that very Satan that was once Lucifer a very son of the morning. All are fallen and would remain so forever if not for the atonement of Christ. Your insistence that we really do not become fallen until we reach the age of accountability makes no sense to me – and I believe that all your references to scriptures and comments by brethren appear to be to be completely out of context – that because of the fall we are subject to Satan and will remain forever subject to Satan except for the atonement of Christ. If you remove the context of the atonement of Christ there is no salvation for even children but in the context of the atonement of Christ even the most crimson and awful sins of anyone covered by the atonement will be pure and clean – as much or more than any spirit that ever fell and became mortal – for whatever amount of time. And I do not believe that does not mean that their spirit was never affected because something else was written on their hearts.
The purification of spirits that fall and come to earth is not about what was “written in their hearts in the pre-existence”. It is rather 100% contingent on the atonement of Christ and what is changed by that atonement. Anyway that is I what I believe and what I believe is the proper context of what is pure. It does not have anything to do with what we were born with (be it intelligence or smarts, or an exceptional spirit or whatever) but rather has everything to do with the atonement of Christ and what that atonement makes pure.
There is a huge difference between desires of the heart and what our fallen brains do. We are dual beings. I know this is hard for most to comprehend but this is our gospel. We have a spiritual nature and a physical nature. They are not matched while in this life. This is obvious. The spirit of the person with Down's syndrome is not reflected in their nature and actions fully while in mortality. It is the same for all of us, to varying degrees. Our mortal body is not capable of handling the capacity of our spirit, it is a fallen being.
The desire of the heart is something only God sees. That is what he is judging us by. It is not seen by the outward man. Men see the outer man, which is the brain, the body and its actions. The inner man is the spiritual nature that is hugely supressed in this life but enough shines through that God, seeing the inner man, can judge the desire of the heart.
The desire to eat food during fast Sunday comes from the body even though my spirit wants to fast. The desire of my heart is to fast. The apostles want to stand and watch in the garden of Gesthemane, that is the desire of the heart but their brain, their body does not have that capacity and it weakens and sleeps.
I 100% agree with your last paragraph. God looks past all the traits of the body, He sees the inner man.
The effect, if any, on the spirit has to by the person taking in the outer traits as their own. For example, lets say someone has a genetic predisposition for alcoholism, which has been shown to be genetically linked to some degree, therefore a trait of the body. If the spirit gives into that drive by hanging out with people that drink, by going to bars etc., making it a lifestyle then it starts to be "written in the heart" it starts to become the character of the spirit. Those same drives will continue in the next life. On the other hand, even if the person has a genetic predisposition to alcoholism and yet they avoid putting themselves into those situations then the trait of the body doesn't become written in the heart of that person, it doesn't become a spiritual trait.
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That is a good question but one that I don't think we know the answer to exactly yet. There are a lot of other uses for the body besides just procreation. I think personally that a body infused with the spirit allows the spirit to change and grow much easier and much faster.
Great answer. I personally think there is one other aspect of the body that is very important to the plan and that is the feature that we sometimes call "instinct". How is it that a baby knows how to suckle on day number one or to cry? There are certain things a body can do that can be hard-wired, so-to-speak. If, when we are resurrected we are to receive an inheritance, this occurs simultaneously with receiving a glorified body pertaining to the Kingdom in which we are assigned. There is one body for the Celestial Kingdom, one for the Terrestrial and various ones for the Telestial as one star differs from another. Within each of those bodies can be a set of 'hard-wired' inheritances, knowledge that is received. As it pertains to the Celestial body, this may be how one will become one with everything in the past, to inherit all that God has as if we were there and did it ourselves. The experience could be shared and inherited. I think there is a strong possibility for this being the reason for the body. This life is to determine which of the three bodies we could handle.
Truth? Is Scripture - Scripture
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
When talking about faith (from a religious standpoint), we are usually talking about faith in someone not something. If we have faith in someone then the arguments are not in terms of the logic of all the other things believed but whether the person is trustworthy or not. As soon as it becomes a discussion about the topic then it no longer is about having faith in the person who provided the truth. At that point it is just a discussion of the truth on its own merit.
True faith is a more efficient way to learn because one does not have to prove every aspect of the thing learned for their self, they can simply take as truth and move on. If I read a textbook from a trusted source I can take the information as true more or less and not have to run the experiments for myself or demonstrate it for myself. We do this early on in life. A child learns from their parents when they have trust in them, as soon as they start to say, 'let me prove it for myself' the rate of learning from the parents slows down (i.e. - rebelious).