[Sin]

I am convinced by those that say and believe that children "cannot" sin; either have no real experience with children or they choose to ignore the obvious established by any actual experience.  For example.  Is there anyone that disagrees that lying is a sin?  If someone thinks that children cannot lie and do not lie - I conclude that they do not deal with children with enough depth to realize what is actually happening.    That such thinking is so caught up in trying to apply theory that they do not comprehend reality.

Sin requires accountability.  Not sure why you are selectively leaving that out.  It is not just the act of lying or even murder for that matter.  Cecil Newton Mahan, 6 years old, shot and killed his friend over a piece of scrap metal in 1929. Did he murder? Yes.  Is murder a sin? Yes.  Did Cecil Newton Mahan commit a sin? No!   How is that?  He hasn't reached the age of accountability.  One has to be accountable to commit "sin".  Does one have to be accountable to do evil?  No. How is that?  Because the mortal body is corrupt and can act against the will of God on its own. It can cause the Apostles to fall asleep in the Garden of Gesthemane against their own spirit's will. Did the Apostles commit sin in their falling asleep?  No, because the spirit is willing, that is the key!

 

If Cecil Newton Mahan, who murdered his friend at the age of 6, died at the age of 7, where would he go in the next life?  To the Celestial Kingdom.  How is that?  Because he is not accountable for his actions before the age of 8 and therefore is not capable of commiting sin.

 

So, you disagree with Mormon?  Moroni 8; " 8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me."

 

Moroni 8; "11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

 12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

 13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

 14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell."

[Sin]

How can G-d hold someone accountable for that which they do not understand as sin?

D&C 137; "7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

 8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"

 

It is easy to focus on the people who are being talked about in these verses but what about the people that are excluded by these verses?  What about those who die without the knowledge and would not have received it with all their heart?  How is God making that judgement?  Are they being judged about something they would have done but never had the chance to show it? 

 

....Or, is it that God can see the desire of the heart even when there is no knowledge?  I think you are making knowledge a prerequisite to call something a sin but really all that it requires is a desire of the heart, a leaning, a tendency, a character trait.  God can judge those charater traits without a person having full knowledge and in fact that is what happens when someone lives by faith.

 

Note, the scripture says "who would have recieved it if they would have been permitted to tarry" it doesn't say, 'who didn't receive it here but received it in spirit prison'.  as verse 9 and 10 say; " 9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

 10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

 

The situation for those that die without knowledge of the gospel are judged in the same way that children who die before the age of accountability - based in what they would have chosen, God knowing their character. 

 

Are "knowledge" and "desires of the heart" synonymous to you?  I think they are different.

[Addictions]

Sorry to bring up yet another question, but what I'm curious about is whether these unclean spirits are actually living through us when we give in to their temptations or if they're just getting us to sin out of pure spite and/or dominance.

You have to realize that 2000 years ago there was not much understanding of medicine and the people used terms such as "evil spirit" or "unclean spirit" for all sorts of diseases and things they didn't understand.

 

For example; Mark 9: "17 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;

 18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

 19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

 20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.

 21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

 22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

 23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

 25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

 27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

 28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

 29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."

 

There are two important things about this account that help us understand what is meant by "unclean spirit".  We know from modern revelation that the devil does not have power to tempt children.  The father in this account says that the "unclean spirit" came to him as a child. So, we can say that this unclean spirit was not obtained by some spiritual weakness of the son in the story.  Also, anybody has been around a seizure recognizes this presentation.  Coming in episodes (it isn't always there), foaming at the mouth, "renting" (shaking back and forth like a tonic clonic seizure) followed by a period of post-ictal confusion or quietness (appeared as if he was dead).   Also many childhood forms of epilepsy are associated with mental impairments = a "dumb spirit". 

 

Don't get me wrong, I believe there are actually evil spirit posessions at times but oftentimes, especially in ancient text, the term "unclean spirit" is synonymous with disease, they were grouped together because they could not tell the difference between the two. Christ wasn't there to give them a lesson in human anatomy and medicine.

 

1 Nephi 11; "31 And he spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Lamb of God going forth among the children of men. And I beheld multitudes of people who were sick, and who were afflicted with all manner of diseases, and with devils and unclean spirits; and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me. And they were healed by the power of the Lamb of God; and the devils and the unclean spirits were cast out."

 

Not only were they healed but the diseases were cast out.  It may seem like these are two separate issues, healing and casting out but it may be over the same problem.  In medicine there is a difference between treating a symptom and curing a disease.  One could say metaphorically, "casting out" means to cure them of the problem so that it never affects them again.  Whereas, simply healing alone would only treat the symptom for a period of time. At a minimum, one should realize that the scriptures make no real, usable, separation between diseases and being possessed by a spirit.

[condescension of God?]

You did not answer the question you asked - what does it mean for a fallen mortal to love G-d with all their heart?

 

A great deal of scripture is symbolic and metaphor.  I believe you are trying to define literally what is given symbolic in metaphor in "love G-d with all your heart, might, mind and strength."    However you slice the pie of sacrifice, I personally think you are creating a great error thinking in any shape or form - that giving all your love - is a sacrifice of equal value, importance use or personal effort compared to the sacrifice of Christ.  Frankly I am disappointed at the attempt to "spin" an answer and feel I must be careful in any response from appearing condescending or cruel in trying to honestly answer to something that logically eludes any reason to me and resembles something quite blasphemous in the least consideration. 

I do not think it equal.  I never said I do.  I am not sure why you think I said it.

 

That is what we should marvel over, that a soul so lowly as mine should receive such a blessing.  This is what we are in awe with, the fact that, we, can receive something that we didn't pay for.  This is why we use the words, grace, gift, inheritance etc. instead of earn, achieve or create. 

 

 

Why is this on the verge of blasphemous?;

1. . I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me,
   Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me.
   I tremble to know that for me he was crucified,
   That for me, a sinner, he suffered, he bled and died.
2. (Chorus)
   Oh, it is wonderful that he should care for me
   Enough to die for me!
   Oh, it is wonderful, wonderful to me!
3. 2. I marvel that he would descend from his throne divine
   To rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine,
   That he should extend his great love unto such as I,
   Sufficient to own, to redeem, and to justify.

 

If I am barking up the wrong tree, it is not because I am trying to, maybe rephrase the question (if you wish).

[Addictions]

This is where I think you and I disagree.  I do not believe that when the spirit has no control that there is or can be a sin committed by our physical body.  I believe that in anything that our physical body does out of control of our spirit is not a sin.  This if a person suffering some physical disorder cries out obscenities during the sacred ordinance of the sacrament - because the spirit has no control of such things - it is not a sin.  

 

The spirit is part of man and when our spirits are enjoying the physical stimulation provided by our physical bodies without any discipline - that man - spirit and body together is the natural man.  In fact a undisciplined spirit does not need a body to be the natural man which is the enemy of G-d - Satan and all his fallen followers being the perfect example of undisciplined spirits acting as the natural enemy of G-d. 

 

To thwart the natural man inclinations our spirit must become in tune with the spirit of G-d - not in tune with itself - in order to repent and receive salvation.  You have said many time that it is necessary to have a eye single to the glory of G-d to spiritually overcome the natural man - that is the key.  It is only through G-d and our spirit connecting to its divine roots with the spirit of G-d that there is any redemption.  Our spirit can do nothing of itself - and if left to its own devices that spirit will become an enemy to G-d as sure as any other spirit under Satan's influence.

 

 

The question is can a physical body sin without a complicit spirit allowing and enjoying the sin?

The sin is in the ommision.  What is ommited?  The control of the body. 

 

If someone takes drugs and then goes and robs a store, killing the clerk but because of the drugs doesn't remember anything about it, are they really responsible for the killing?  They weren't in their right mind when they killed.

 

Or, if someone is drunk and they kill someone while under the influence of alcohol and driving, are they responsible for the killing, or would you even call it killing?  Who or what killed if the person is not responsible for the killing.

 

Lets say someone slips some GHB in someones drink and they, not being theirself with the effect of the drug, agree to extramarietal sex and she becomes pregnant.  Did the person have extramarietal sex or not?  The person (the spirit) was not in control of the body and yet the body agreed to pursue the advances of the person who slipped her the drug.  Of course we would not call that a sin and yet the body acted in a way that was contrary to what that person's spirit would have chosen.  Could the person maybe tried to put herself in a different situation so those kinds of things wouldn't happen , like go out on double dates or in different situations?  Maybe, that would be for God to judge. 

 

The question that should be asked is if the body can be an enemy to God (go contrary to God's will) without sinning?  Yes.  There must needs be opposition in all things to bring about the purposes of this world.

 

When the apostles slept in the garden, an act that was contrary to the will of their spirit, who or what did Christ blame that on?  He did not say, "you have sinned" but recognized the act as being contrary to what He asked them to do.  He said the body is weak, recognizing the body overpowered their spirit in that situation.

 

When Christ said, forgive them for they know not what they do, you must have a really hard time with that statement because He is saying there is something that should be forgiven but at the same time saying they don't even know what they are doing.  How can that be?  Because the body can act without the spirit knowing or controling the action.  For the same reason children under the age of 8 are not responsible for those actions.

 

LDS.org defines sin as; "To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17)."

So, if that is the definition of sin, what do you call it when a person is acting unrighteously without the knowledge of the truth?   And is it possible to disobey God unwillingly if the statement is that we have to "willfully disobey" to call it a sin.

What would you call an act of unwillingly disobeying God's commandments?   There may be some useful terms; iniquity, unrighteousness, carnality, etc. 

[Sin]

Agreed     Now - - there is no sin until (or unless) the spirit is involved?

Of course.

[Sin]

Are you saying the the desire of our heart is something physical or spiritual or both (implying the two have become integrated)?

The "desire of the heart" is spiritual.

[The Church is true]

It is my impression that you are speculating too much.  Not that such speculation is not good but that there is more to reality (spiritual and physical) than what you are speculating.  As for you example of spirit protons versed physical protons differing by charge.  Charge is a physically discernible characteristic.  From your definition of spirit matter a spirit proton could not possibly have charge because it would be discernible.  And since it could not have charge of any kind - we could not call it a proton.

 

In all things that G-d has created for us there is order.  We are also told that G-d is very much about order both for things physical and spiritual.  We are also instructed that the order of that which is spirit is very similar to that which is physical so much so that visually we cannot discern the difference between a physical object and the spirit of a physical object.  We are even told in scripture that evil and unclean spirits can duplicate the visual effects of an angel of light.  In the Book of Mormon Cohor saw such an evil unclean spirit and was deceived in thinking it was of G-d.  I do not think that the Holy Ghost would transform us so we can see evil spirits nor do I believe that our spiritual eyes can be deceived that we can see a unclean spirit and think it is of G-d.  I do not think you believe we are deceived through our spiritual eyes.  There must be some other possibility and the only other possibility I can think of is that we can see such things with our fallen physical eyes that because of the fall are corrupted and can be deceived.

If I didn't express myself well, I apologize.  I am not trying to say that it is not discernable theoretically as much as I am suggesting that the two would not be on the same page in a way that the physical could recognize its existence.

 

Evil spirits, Satan in particular, has been given power to bruise our heel.  This is a power given to do the things you are talking about.  This is not a natural ability of the spirit.  It will be taken back after this probationary period is over and Christ overcomes all.  I don't know to what extent and the specifics of such power given but he has been allowed this thing for a short time.

 

I believe we are decieved spiritually but indirectly though the physical reception.  If Satan was given the power to bruise our "head" metaphorically speaking, I would think differently.  But he isn't given that power, only to bruise our heel.  Satan can only affect our spiritual being if we allow it, just like if we allow the Holy Ghost to affect our spirit.

 

Elder Hales; "Although the devil laughs, his power is limited. Some may remember the old adage: “The devil made me do it.” Today I want to convey, in absolutely certain terms, that the adversary cannot make us do anything. He does lie at our door, as the scriptures say, and he follows us each day.²⁰ Every time we go out, every decision we make, we are either choosing to move in his direction or in the direction of our Savior. But the adversary must depart if we tell him to depart. He cannot influence us unless we allow him to do so, and he knows that! The only time he can affect our minds and bodies—our very spirits—is when we allow him to do so. In other words, we do not have to succumb to his enticements!"

 

“The spirit is pure, and under the special control and influence of the Lord, but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth. If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both.

“Recollect, brethren and sisters, every one of you, that when evil is suggested to you, when it arises in your hearts, it is through the temporal organization. When you are tempted, buffeted, and step out of the way inadvertently; when you are overtaken in a fault, or commit an overt act unthinkingly; when you are full of evil passion, and wish to yield to it, then stop and let the spirit, which God has put into your tabernacles, take the lead. If you do that, I will promise that you will overcome all evil, and obtain eternal lives. But many, very many, let the spirit yield to the body, and are overcome and destroyed” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 70).

 

Satan hopes that we yield to the body, so his work is through the body.  Whether we let it affect our spirit or not is a spiritual thing, but it is our spirit's agency that is involved not a direct temptation to our spirits from Satan.

[Lucid Dreaming and the Spirit]

Hi, I just joined lds.net. I was led here through my desire to research ministering angels after reading Moroni 10:14 tonight. I have had some dreams where I felt that my spirit was actually out of my body. Is this possible or was that part of my dream. I have written these experiences in my journal. It's funny, in one of my dreams I was in the spirit looking at my bed. But, my body and my wife's body wasn't laying on my bed. Instead, there were two other spirit beings sitting on my bed. In physical form my wife and I were sleeping on our bed. In spiritual form I couldn't see our bodies there. My spirit was having a spiritual experience with other spirits. We were playing a game together. The game was actually played with members of my family who are not yet born. Please let me know if you have any insight into this? I am fascinated by this! It is very very exciting stuff to me! 

Only you can know where the information is coming from but here is one clue, messages from the Spirit are enlightening whereas the made-up story line from the brain's circuitry during REM sleep is mostly random, imagined or strung together various thoughts and memories that for the most part do not provide any new enlightened understanding.  I would suggest if you have a hard time gathering the meaning of it and the meaning is not something that pushes one down the path of righteousness, then it probably wasn't a special message from the Spirit.

 

Realize that the human brain can make up information that is not there.  For example, that is what the "blind spot" is in your visual field.  We don't see the missing visual information that is created by the optic nerve's location on the retina because the brain fills in the hole with made up information as if there is actually something there to see.

 

The other thing to consider is that if spiritual messages were obtained by being "out-of-body" or semi-conscious (as is what happens in lucid dreaming) then our religion would promote things like ingesting Peyote or smoking pot or other psychoactive substances. Psychoactive substances activate the "what-if" part of the brain, in other words, they activate the imagination part of the brain to generate false information.  During dreaming our brain is putting together strings of false information, kind of like if you were to read just the title of the books on a shelf in the Library and try to make a story out of the various book titles alone. As the brain tries to determine where in the "library shelf" the recent memory should be placed, it goes through similar memories, like reading the Titles of books on a shelf, to determine where is should be stored. As it goes through this process, we normally should not be maintaining awareness.  Maintained awareness of dreams is when a person has poor quality sleep, as the wakeful circuits of the brain are separate from the sleep ciruitry it is possible to be half awake and half asleep.  That is what happens in sleep-walking, sleep-talking etc.  If the half awake and half asleep state occurs during REM that is what people sometimes call lucid dreaming and depending on the dream people also call that nightmares.  Altered consciousness is not the way we are told to communicate with the spirit, it should be done with full mind, pondering, listening carefully etc., not half conscious states. 

[The Church is true]

Way too many assumptions.  The brother of Jared saw the spiritual finger of Christ because of his great faith.  It is the glory and power of a Celestial physical body that will consume and cause the difficulty.   I think you will find cases where evil spirits were seen with natural eyes.  And what about ears - we can hear but not see.  Nonsense - I did work for the military that created images based on sound.  The difference between seeing and hearing is just wavelengths of energy.

 

Are you kidding me???   So all non-spirit matter was changed to what?  non-non-spirit matter?  or changed to matter that cannot be seen with natural (fallen) eyes to matter that can be seen with natural (fallen) eyes?  Was light changed as well?  How about energy?   So you think any element that was created before the fall - we cannot see any trace of?

 

BTW we cannot see Dark Matter - is matter that we cannot see spirit matter?   Is there a scripture that tells us what matter is that we cannot see?

 

And the Book of Mormon, your genealogy records, church records, Temples and ....?

"Seeing" represents all modalities of detection via the human body.  It also, at times, represents understanding. 

 

For the brother of Jared to see the finger of the Lord it had to be through transformed eyes, through the eye of faith or the Lord transforming to make himself visible.

 

I don't know what spirit matter is any better than you but we can say that it is not the same thing as the physical matter around us that makes up this universe, the earth, our bodies etc.  Are there similarities?  What difference does it make if we say it is not the same?   Changing one little property of the matter could make a huge difference.

 

Lets just say, for example, that the charge of a proton in spirit matter is twice as much as it is in "course" matter.  That would change a lot of things that we know about the properties of elements around us.  Or lets say that Atoms are 1000 times smaller in fine matter as opposed to course matter, that alone would change the physics and properties of the matter from what we now have in ways that we cannot understand. Or it could be that there are 100 things different about fine matter from course matter, it would change many things about its physical properties and as we now see it.

 

I know you don't believe me, so listen to the scripture D&C  76; " 89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;"

 

I guess to you, "surpasses all understanding" is still within understanding.

[The Church is true]

You do not see much of the sun with your natural eyes - nor do you see much of the universe.  Your natural eyes only see electromagnetic radiation within what we call the visible spectrum.  There are many very normal things in this universe that we have discovered that cannot be seen with you natural eyes.  In fact you would wither and die on the surface of the sun - but I do not suggest that you call the sun G-d and start worshiping it.  Also if you do not have faith in telescopes and microscopes there are many other natural physical things you cannot see.

If I can see any of it with my natural eyes or through "natural means" and measurement - the learning of man, then it is not spiritual matter.

 

Remember all matter was changed as a result of the Fall.  Why would all matter have to be changed if it is all one thing?   When the Earth receives its' Celestial glory

 

D&C 130; "6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;

 7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

 8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

 9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s."

 

Even the matter of Earth will have to change to be in an Eternal state.

 

Ether; " 9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new."  

 

"All things"!!! have become new.  Whatever you can detect or see or measure in this life will have passed away and become new.  Like, throw away the old physics text book, new!!

[condescension of God?]

you are changing the subject - those that inherit all.  There is conflict between that and those that sacrifice more inherit more.  Which is it?

 

Obviously the righteous that sacrifice less either inherit the same as the righteous that sacrifice more or they don't - I am trying to understand what you believe and why.  You really do not see any conflict?

 

So considering those that reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.  Who sacrificed as much as Jesus Christ and who inherits all or the same inheritance as Christ.

 

I submit it does not matter how much sacrifice any more than how much total tithing we offer - If someone spends 99% of their life being selfish with their money but repents and pays a small amount of tithing from what is left of what they have - they will inherit just that same as someone that pays 100% tithing for 100% of their mortal life.

 

I am sure you will not get an ounce better blessing for an additional dime of sacrifice in tithing.  But there is nothing wrong with paying extra tithing - even and especially though you will not get a thing for it.

 

But I would suggest that if you pay extra tithing thinking and expecting an extra reward - that such selfishness will cost you and such attitude exclude you from greater blessings and inheritance.

Sacrifice is the reflection of having charity or the love of Christ.

 

What does it mean to love thy Lord with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind?

 

When I played soccer in High School, I couldn't get enough of it.  I would wear my soccer shirts to school, I would watch soccer on TV as much as I could, I would kick the soccer ball around the house until my mother got mad, I would think about soccer all day and dream about it at night.  This is one of the few reference points I have to understand what is meant by loving something with all thy soul.  Similarly we are to love the Lord with everything, that is the greatest commandment, more important than service and sacrifice.  Of course, if we love the Lord that much we want to do everything He does, we want to follow His example, think the same way, act the same way, do the same things, have the same things ... be one with Him as He prayed we would be.  The greatest commandment is to love Him and everything about Him, so much that you want His image in your countenance - i.e - you want to be exactly like Him.

 

The second commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself.   There is a reason those are numbered one and two. For some reason you want to put the second before the first. 

 

If one loves the Lord to that degree and loves their neighbor as thy self then they will be doing what the Lord did and therefore inherit the same thing the Lord does. By giving all of one's heart, mind and soul, one receives all.  Everyone is given a different "all" during this probationary period.  The Lord knows the differences and makes those judgements. If one finds their self in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom then they have met the requirement of loving the Lord with all their heart mind and soul and they love their neighbor as their self. Anything less than "all" of one's heart, mind and soul, is so rewarded.  So, if one is not to that level of giving all of their heart, mind and soul then any additional charity will be so rewarded.

[Addictions]

I believe that there is often bad interpretations of scripture.  Jesus clearly intended that we judge a great many things about people.  For example he warned about wolves in sheep clothing.  Do you really think he intended that we not judge that in others???  We are clearly told by Christ about judging others according to their fruits.  "By their fruits you shall know them".

 

Part of our mission is to discern good from evil and if we cannot judge the good in ourselves and others what purpose is there in our mortal probation?  I think, but I am not sure - so I keep asking trying to clarify you stand.  But my understanding is that only the spirit sins.  Whatever our body does without our spirit directing is a consequence of mortality but whatever our spirit engages in that is evil is a sin (even if the body does not fully engage but our spirit entertains thoughts like adultery - then repentance is necessary) and without repentance our soul will suffer the consequence.   If our spirit is not engaged (like sometimes happens in dreams while we are sleeping) then whatever is going on is not a sin - I do not know how to say it more simple.   It seems to me that you believe that our physical body can and will sin without any input from our spirit (if our body continues to sin that somehow with the sin happening over and over and becoming an addiction that eventually our spirit might become corrupt and be complicit - but I do not believe that at all - note even for a second.

 

Every sin involves and affects our spirit - and increases the gap between our spirit and the spirit of G-d.  Not only is sin dangerous to a much greater degree to our spirit than our physical body - but once a spirit is corrupted it is impossible for that spirit to engage in good without repentance and that spirit will be cut off forever from good.  The spirit is not just the determining factor in what is sin - it is that spirit and the intent of that spirit that is the only determining factor in what is sin.

Yes, I believe if the spirit becomes darkened in any individual, if they "harden" their heart, obscure their eye or whatever other analogy you want to use for the spirit not being in control, then the result is being a natural man. To allow the spirit to be in control requires becoming spiritually minded.  We don't start out with that ability, it takes work and constant effort.  It is so much that way when we are born, I believe, that is the reason there is an age of accountability.  At least at that age the spirit starts to have a fighting chance to overcome the influences of the body.  That is what the gospel is about, to allow the spirit to be in control. But if man does not follow the gospel principles then the body remains in control.  The lack of spiritual control when it is possible is sin.  Letting go of the controls, in other words, is sin.  That is what is meant by "eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" mentality. 2 Nephi says there are "many" that have that mentality.   Who says that?  Those that are "taught by the precepts of men" and those that are "wise and learned" and rich and proud, according to 2 Nephi.  The influence of the spirit is soft, quiet and subtle, it is not loud and overpowering like the body's influence.  It is hard to hear the spirit. Like Elder Bednar said recently, that is the test of this life to see if we make the effort to listen to our spiritual influences or do we simply follow the natural passions of the body.  That is the test from which there is sin vs obedience.

 

Judging whether any given incident is generated by body vs spirit is not an easy thing to do when looking at our neighbor unless one has been given power to do so such as a bishop etc over one of his members. I am glad to see that you are finally admitting that the body can generate its own thoughts - the example of sleep you gave.  Yeah!!

 

I agree with everything you are saying about sin and the spirit.  All I am saying is that is is very difficult to see the splinter in another's eye when there is a mote in ours.  Man sees the outer man where God can see the thoughts from the spirit, the inner man. Where and when it has crossed the line to the spirit driving those evil thoughts is under God's judgement, not ours. We can't do it.

 

There is a difference between judging a person vs discernment of a situation.  I realize the words are sometimes used interchangeably but there is a difference between judging a person vs discerning good from evil.

 

N. Eldon Tanner said; "The reason, therefore, that we cannot judge is obvious. We cannot see what is in the heart. We do not know motives, although we impute motives to every action we see. They may be pure while we think they are improper.

It is not possible to judge another fairly unless you know his desires, his faith, and his goals. Because of a different environment, unequal opportunity, and many other things, people are not in the same position. One may start at the top and the other at the bottom, and they may meet as they are going in opposite directions. Someone has said that it is not where you are but the direction in which you are going that counts; not how close you are to failure or success but which way you are headed. How can we, with all our weaknesses and frailties, dare to arrogate to ourselves the position of a judge? At best, man can judge only what he sees; he cannot judge the heart or the intention, or begin to judge the potential of his neighbor.

When we try to judge people, which we should not do, we have a great tendency to look for and take pride in finding weaknesses and faults, such as vanity, dishonesty, immorality, and intrigue. As a result, we see only the worst side of those being judged."

 

Our ability to discern is limited, this is why the first principle of the gospel is faith.  If we could discern all then faith would not be necessary.  Is it possible to sin because of a lack of faith?  I would say yes.  Apparently, you would say no because one would have to have full knowledge about the issue to sin but if one has knowledge, where is the faith?  There is no faith if there is knowledge.  So, how do you propose there could be a test of faith if only a person could be tested on the things that are known?

[condescension of God?]

I am referencing your interpretation in previous discussions that we will inherit all that G-d has -- including his greatness?  So I am confused do we inherit all that G-d has or is your interpretation conflicting with you idea that the greater the sacrifice the greater the reward?

Not everyone inherits all, only those that reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.

 

I am not seeing any conflict.

[condescension of God?]

Somehow we are not communicating.  So do you honestly believe that because of what I had to endure (sacrifice) serving in the military in a time of war and that you did not - that in eternity I get more and greater blessings than you can ever achieve - that there will always be greater blessings (glory) for those that gave greater sacrifice?  If you believe such a thing how can you believe that you with Christ will inherit all the Father has - when you have not sacrificed any where near what Christ sacrificed.  There is either greater glory for greater sacrifice or there is not greater glory but rather sacrifice is a honest and actual sacrifice that others may have greater glory - not the one making the sacrifice.

Go back in the thread, I said that makes "one greater".  In other words the comparison is to self not to another.  The sacrifice makes the person greater than where they could have been without it.  I never compared one person to another person.  I am not sure where you are getting that idea.

Where much is given much is required.  In terms of the glory given in the end, the playing field is leveled out according to God's knowledge of all the circumstances and what is given.  Those that are low shall be made high.

[Addictions]

It appears to me you are supporting my premise.  The difference between someone wanting and doing things for a physical healthy body to commit murder and someone that wants a physical healthy body to perform service for G-d is the spirit of the individual.  Thus it is not the principles of being physically healthy but the intent of the spirit that brings about the actual difference between a saint and the natural man.   Which is what I have been saying all along.

That is what I have been saying all along as well but the difference is that you are not admitting to their being a difference between the "intent of the spirit" and what actually comes out in terms of actions as it is modified or even often overpowered by the "intent of the brain" (the body).  The spirit is willing but the body is weak.  Those are two different intents.  In any given situation which one wins out is based in a number of variables that you and I cannot judge in any given person.  In some the drive for alcohol is stronger than others, that may be the test they face in life from body genetics, in others there may be same sex attraction, that is the challenge they face in life from body genetics and brain wiring, hormones, etc.  There are those that are driven by adrenaline from body genetics, hormones, brain wiring etc - the adrenaline junky - and so they may be in a different set of circumstances compared to someone else.

 

Is the spirit supposed to win over the body in this life?  We try but we can't do it without the Lord's help and it may not happen in this life.  Paul lived with his thorn in the flesh and despite asking couldn't get rid of it.  Just because we did not win the battle over the body, even if the spirit is not in complete control over actions that does not necessarily mean we will be judged accordingly because we are judged based in the desires of our spirit, our "heart" as opposed to the desires of our brain, hormones, genetics circumstances etc.

 

As I posted in the other thread, from Neal A. Maxwell; "Desire denotes a real longing or craving. Hence righteous desires are much more than passive preferences or fleeting feelings. Of course our genes, circumstances, and environments matter very much, and they shape us significantly. Yet there remains an inner zone in which we are sovereign, unless we abdicate. In this zone lies the essence of our individuality and our personal accountability.

Therefore, what we insistently desire, over time, is what we will eventually become and what we will receive in eternity. “For I [said the Lord] will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts”

 

We are accountable for the "inner zone", not the genes, circumstances and environments that man has a hard time seeing past that "outer man". 

[Sin]

How can G-d hold someone accountable for that which they do not understand as sin?

God judges our character, the desires of the heart as well as works.

 

D&C 137; "7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

 8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

 9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts."

 

D&C 7; " 8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired."

 

Alma 29; " 4 I ought not to harrow up in my desires the firm decree of a just God, for I know that he granteth unto men according to their desire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction."

 

Neal A. Maxwell; "Desire denotes a real longing or craving. Hence righteous desires are much more than passive preferences or fleeting feelings. Of course our genes, circumstances, and environments matter very much, and they shape us significantly. Yet there remains an inner zone in which we are sovereign, unless we abdicate. In this zone lies the essence of our individuality and our personal accountability.

Therefore, what we insistently desire, over time, is what we will eventually become and what we will receive in eternity. “For I [said the Lord] will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts”

 

According to Neal A. Maxwell, God judges that "inner zone", looking past genes, circumstances, environments etc.

[The Church is true]

Again - why call both matter unless there is a greater foundation of similarities than differences?  Obviously there is more similarities between spirit matter and physical matter than differences between matter and stuff that is not matter.  If you read the context of Joseph Smith's comments concerning spirit stuff - he is drawing reference to matter as we understand rather than some substance with which we have no relevant experience.

 

 

From mathematics and physics in considering our 3 dimensional space time with other dimensions of space time - if such possibility is some reflection in reality then the integration of our spirits of different dimension with our 3 dimensional space time we become not only more powerful (expanding influence) in each dimensional space time but also have expanded influences in the sum of dimensional space time.  Or in other words the intersected whole is greater than the sum of all its parts.

 

As to the presents of G-d.  We also need protection from the sun if we were at its servface.   And that is just regular old faction matter in our 3 dimensional space time.  The problem is not so much that we cannot see anything in the presents of G-d or standing on the surface of the sun as it is the fact that there is so much energy - not only would our rods and cones in our eyes be overloaded but the intensity of energy would physically dismantle our physical elements resulting in basic elements quite different from the elements that sustain life.

Well, I disagree with that.  There are many examples in the scriptures that clearly state that we cannot see the spiritual realm without some power or intervention to do it, it is not that it is just too powerful but maybe that is semantics.  The bottom line is that course matter in its natural state cannot see spirit matter, there has to be some transformation or power given. 

 

D&C 5; "11 And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you.

 12 Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them.

 13 I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are;"   The implication is that the power is not there naturally.

 

The only method in which these things can be viewed is through an eye of faith; Ether " 19 And there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even before Christ came, who could not be kept from within the veil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad."

 

Moses 1; " 11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him."

 

Moses states it "could not" happen through natural eyes.  Whatever the "why" it could not happen doesn't matter, it simply cannot happen.

 

By the way, I can see the sun with my natural eyes, under certain circumstances.  The sun is not hidden from my natural eyes.

[Sin]

One frequently reads/hears that the Prophet or the Church leadership has said it is better not to do something. Ex: Better not to get tattoos, better not to get more than 1 ear piercing.

 

My question: Is doing those things a sin? When does behavior that is disapproved of become sinful, if ever? Telling me something is 'wrong' is not the same as telling me it is sinful. Maybe it's just my interpretation, I dunno.

This, I think, is a great question. 

 

I think we may not really know the answer to that until judgement day.  We certainly don't have the ability to judge any one person about those issues without knowing the intent of the heart. 

 

There are many ways to sin, there are so many that King Benjamin coudn't even number them; Mosiah 4 " 29 And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.

 30 But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not."

 

I think God will judge the act based in the effort given, as King Benjamin explains in verse 30.  As one of my young women said in Sunday school many years ago when we read this scripture;  "maybe this is where Ice Cube got the phrase 'check yo self'"

[condescension of God?]

I will admit that at times service has been fun and enjoyable - but not always.  A good example is the time I served in the military.  It was not fun or a time of happiness for me - though I made every effort to be happy and joyful but on more than one occasion if there had not been for divine intervention it is likely that I would have perished - some of my closest friends made during that time did perish.   The experience left we somewhat broken.  But if the circumstances were the same I would do it again.  I see nothing in my experience of that which you describe as glory.

The reward of glory is in heaven, not necesarily here. Here we are to endure to the end so that we might, in the end, taste of the fruit.

 

Sometimes our efforts in this life are to carry out, or allow for the wrath of God and His purposes but in this there is glory; Alma 14; "10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

 11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

 12 Now Amulek said unto Alma: Behold, perhaps they will burn us also.

 13 And Alma said: Be it according to the will of the Lord. But, behold, our work is not finished; therefore they burn us not."

[The Church is true]

Not sure of your question.  If there is a significant difference in two "kinds" of matter then why call both matter?   We can also understand in the revelation given by Joseph to have pointed out that there is greater similarity than there is difference between what we call matter and spirit matter because they are both matter.  So my question is - why do you look for differences if the similarities are of any importance?

 

I have speculated that the difference is that spirit matter has an additional dimension.  Thus where that which is spiritual intersects with our 3 dimensional space time there is commonality but there is more to that which is spirit than we can access in our 3 dimensional space time. 

I agree that there is an overlap but I do not agree that they are more similar than different, we honestly do not know.  The differences or similarities between the two might be represented by how important it is to have a body over a spirit that is just spirit matter alone.  You may say, there is hardly any difference between the two.  I would say, it was a pretty big deal for us to get this body, something our spirit body couldn't get on its own. The differences might also be represented by how far you think we have fallen from our previous status, not very far or somewhat or very far? 

 

If spirit matter was the encompasing matter over both the fine and the course as you are suggesting, then why is it so important to have a body.  If the spirit body and its matter can do everything course matter can do and more then there is no need for a body and spirits who don't get a body are not made any lesser for it.  Obviously, the body adds to the spirit with something the spirit does not have intrinsically by itself.  I think the body and the spirit have some cross over but just like a Venn diagram there is a part that is just course matter alone and not part of the overlapp.  While one is viewing the Venn diagram while standing in the circle that is just course matter, one cannot see the parts that are spirit matter.  There has to be some interaction between the matter as one can influence the other but spirits are placed within certain spheres, there is a limitation and purpose to its interaction.  There is no spirit "matter" floating around that is not placed within a sphere or purpose of some kind around us. 

To try to explain the differences based in course matter terms, I think, is not going to get you anywhere.

 

Why does a body have to translated or transformed to see God if they are more similar than different? 

[Addictions]

You did not answer the question - obviously a party life style is not a focus on good physical health.  I asked a very simple question - in your view is an intelligent focus on good physical health the essence of the natural man, contrary to the spirit - which I seem to understand from you are two separate, distinct and opposing natures within us. 

Again it depends on the purpose.  An assassin who wants to have great physical health so he can kill more effectively is listening to the drives of the natural man and not the spirit.  An assassin can take an "intelligent" approach to good health, eating right, regular exercise, sleeping well, etc but it is always the motive that describes the source of the action.

 

God does not receive works that are not done with the correct intent, even if they are "good".  Moroni 7; "5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

 6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

 7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

 8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

 9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

 10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift."

 

Jesus describes the importance of the motive over the act; Matthew 23; "25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."

 

If we cleanse the inside, spiritual motives, then the outside can be cleansed.  Not the other way around!

 

I don't think I can say it any more clearly than 1 Samuel 16; " 7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."

 

A person can do everything "right" by chance, tradition, luck, having a good "nature" but if it is not done with the right intent (heart) it means nothing.

 

Lets say I live a clean life because I don't want to be reincarnated as a mosquito in the next life; I don't kill, I am kind to my neighbors, I don't use bad language, I serve others, I keep my body healthy etc.  You want to say that is the same as someone doing it because the have faith in their Savior and are following His promptings?   It is not the same, God looks at the heart (the purpose), the desires of the heart. 

[condescension of God?]

Perhaps it is my upbringing - but service for any selfish reason is not my understanding of service.   I am not saying that hard work is not worthy of payment - just that hard work for pay to me has always been responsibility and a job - service however, is very different - if you get paid it is not a service.  If you do it for fee (not for glory) then it is a service.  Thus I was taught that when I go to work I ought to give value to my payment - but I was also taught to do extra as a service - not to get paid more.

 

In fact I caused quite a stir within a company I once worked for when I was called into the office of one of the vice president's and offered a new position in the company that would also increase my pay by a large %.   I turned it down and explained that I was trying to figure out how to spend more time with my family and less time at work.  This was a surprise because I was spending 60 hours a week at work and only being paid for 40 hours.  The vice president asked why I worked so hard when I did not want more responsibility.  I answered that I wanted the company, our customers, and my coworkers to succeed and I felt that the last few projects I had worked on were in trouble and needed the extra time.  I had hoped that instead of being offered to be able to work the extra hours forever - that I would rather get some extra time off.

 

What is interesting is that particular VP ended up joining the LDS church - and then some years later he was fired - which under the circumstances convinced me to  look for work elsewhere.  But the company that once controlled almost 90% of the marked share is now not even considered a player in the automation field.  I was sure that that the reason for the company failure??? - was that the company management became consumed by their own glory.

 

Even with G-d - I believe it is not about glory - it is about sacrifice for a greater purpose than self.

Glory of the world is different than the glory we are talking about.  Maybe that is what is holding you up about this.  "Glory", in this sense, is not praise or something worn on one's sleeve or money etc.  Glory is happiness.

Insert the word "happiness" or "joy" for the word glory and then ask yourself if you would still say the same things about the motivations.

 

God's glory is the bringing about glory for others.   God's happiness is in the bringing about happiness for others. 

 

I am happy when I am in the service of others, I increase my glory when I am in the service of others. 

 

Men are that they might have joy.  How is the joy obtained? By serving God.  The goal is not service, that is the means to the end which is pure joy and happiness. 

 

Why can it not be for you that "greater purpose than self" = glory?  Glory is the greater purpose than self. 

 

Nobody can have glory of and by their self, not even God. God's glory is dependent on a purpose greater than self, alone.  Of course the God that we worship is not alone. 

[Addictions]

But isn't being concerned with one's own physical health; at least in part, being carnal - physically minded - natural man?

It always depends on what is in a person's heart, their purpose.  Everything should be done with an eye single to the glory of God. Nobody does that perfectly and so there will always be a slight "natural man" motivation in almost everything we do.  Carnally minded vs spiritually minded is not an either-or thing, it is, most of the time a combination of the two influences. it is a spectrum of motivating factors.  It is similar to whether someone does the right thing out of fear of punishment vs loving God. 

 

I have friends that spend half the day in the gym so they can work on their appearance which affects their party lifestyle.  I have other friends who go to the gym to keep their blood sugars low and work on their heart health. 

 

I have some friends that spend a good portion of their day making sure all of their food is "organic" (whatever that means) and eating herbal suppliments etc. spending lots of money in that way all for "health" but have nothing left over to take their family on a vacation and complain about the cost of clothes, can't pay for medical visits or the dentist etc.

 

Even Jesus told Mary's sister to stop cleaning the house and focus on the more important issues. 

 

If God tells us to take care of our "temple", our bodies, in a certain way and we do it for that reason then that is not being carnally minded.

[Addictions]

Just-a-Guy, I don't understand how me being against unrighteous psychiatry and psycho-tropic abuse has anything to do with cardio surgery? I know that there are wonderful surgeons throughout the world. Australia was home to one of the worlds most leading eye surgeons, who did free eye surgery for the indigenise Australian's and other people from third world countries. His name was Dr Fred Hollows. We also had another of the worlds most renowned cardio surgeons. His name was  Dr Victor Chang. Wonderful men!

 

It is psychiatry (an unmeasurable science) I have the main problem with or the over prescribing of medications or using medications that are not designed to be taken for years and years, over years and years. You may think that that it fine and that's your choice. However considering that the rest of the world knows that women from Utah call Prozac (Vitamin P) should be an indication  (it has even been detected in the water ways of America)  that America and the rest of the world have serious issues when it comes to being over medicated, especially when it comes to pain killers / opioids and psycho-tropics. 

 

Back in the 1960's they were going to scrap psychiatry because it was an unmeasurable science and had lost its respect in the academic world. However the Rockefeller's funded it through several universities in America. As a result it sprang back. Now it is a multibillion dollar conglomerate, making money hand over fist. With no thought to the millions of people that have been negatively affected by this flawed pseudo science.

 

If you would like to educate yourself on these problems your could watch the DVD " The Marketing of Madness" or study into Orthomolecular Science. You could also down load the article written by Whitaker. R . " The case against antipsychotics a 50 year record of doing more harm than good." Or there is another article by Bruce .G . Charlton " Why are Doctors still prescribing neuroleptics." In these articles look at the referencing. There are heaps of legitimate articles to be found out there.

 

Another article that was written by an LDS psychologist's husband ( Ron Poulton) would be a very interesting article for you to read. I know that there are some really caring counsellors and it can be beneficial to talk about once problems and try to beak the conditioning and indoctrination that people have been subjected to in this society. But this cannot be done when one is doped up to the eye balls on psycho-tropics and are being told that the evil spirits they hear and see everyday are just in their imagination. When I was doing my degree in Psychology the students from other sciences would always yell out "Psychology is not a science it is flawed, it is a pseudo science." They were definitely right about that.

 

As far Brigham Young is concerned I feel what he was mainly talking about when he said Remedies where herbs, D&C 42:43 And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy (Big Pharma) I mean he was the Prophet who discovered the desert plant which now is called Brigham tea. This tea apparently is good for respiratory illnesses, UTI's, Asthma, flues etc. I am sure you would know all about that being from Utah.

 

So I am not against surgeons and other legitimate medical care! However what I feel the church leaders do sometimes when it comes to this multibillion dollar industry (big Pharma)  that is run by thugs, is what I will do for you. I will leave you with this scripture found in Mathew 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer and thou be cast into prison (Poor Joseph Smith).

Pain is just as immeasurable, so are you against doctors prescribing pain medications as well?

 

Doctors avoid going into fields such as Psychiatry because it is a lot or work to get paid so little.  Insurance companies reimburse more for a doctor to do something over spending time talking with a patient.  After a doctor has spent 10 to 12 years of education beyond High School, they do not want to do a job that pays the same as a plumber.  In other words, as great as the solution sounds, to counsel patients about their problems as opposed to just prescribing medications, it is never going to happen until doctors get paid more for their time. Down the road, the brightest students are not going to want to go into the field of medicine, which I think is already starting to happen.  Your doctor is not going to be the "top of the class" student as there are easier ways to make money for someone with that amount of education.

 

The high cost of medication stems from the issue of class action law suits raising the cost to produce medications.  It comes from the practice of making money from being contentious = lawyers.  Of course, now, big Pharma, pushes that further but the original driving of the cost is from legal issues - that is what put money in the pot to be greedy over in the first place.  If the side effects of herbs could be pursued by lawyers the same way prescribed medications are then the cost of herbs would sky-rocket and be regulated a lot tighter putting money into the lawyers and politicians' pockets. But since herbal "remedies" cannot make any real medical claims, lawyers cannot go after them.  The FDA has to approve a drug for a particular use before doctors can prescribe it without running risk of being sued. The cost of medicine has a linear relationship to how much lawyers get paid as well as the risk for large law suits.

 

Here is one explanation for the cost of medicine; "Drug companies are like other companies in that they manufacture products that must be sold for a profit in order for the company to survive and grow. They are different from some companies because the drug business is very risky. For instance, only one out of every ten thousand discovered compounds actually becomes an approved drug for sale. Much expense is incurred in the early phases of development of compounds that will not become approved drugs. In addition, it takes about 7 to 10 years and an average cost of 500 million dollars to develop each new drug. This money is spent before the FDA approves the drug, and if the drug is not approved, the company loses the money. These expenses must be covered by the revenue from compounds that successfully become approved drugs. Moreover, only 3 out of every 20 approved drugs bring in sufficient revenue to cover their developmental costs, and only 1 out of every 3 approved drugs generates enough money to cover the development costs of previous failures. This means that for a drug company to survive, it needs to discover a blockbuster (billion-dollar drug) every few years. After a drug is approved, millions of dollars are spent on marketing in educating healthcare providers and conducting post-marketing studies. Drug companies spend a lot of money on marketing because of the stiff competition they face from other drug companies for their drugs, and in order to develop each drug's highest revenue-generating potential. Given the poor odds of discovering another successful drug, it is more efficient to maximize the returns on a drug that is already on the market through advertising. In this sense, drug companies are no different than any other type of company."

 

In 2012 the FDAs budget was 4.63 billion.

 

I think all of this cost is from what I think you are saying, that people don't take responsibility for their own health.  They would rather blame some bad drug or some bad doctor for any poor outcomes even though the success of any particular treatment is never 100% (including the success of herbs). The issue is that nobody gets sued when herbs don't work.