Seminarysnoozer
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Posts posted by Seminarysnoozer
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We can repent of evil but there is no repentance for not doing that which is good.
It seems to me that many expect blessing beyond that which we develop.
Has he, like the prodigal son returned to the Father not so much thinking to inherit everything but willing to do whatever the Father asks so that he can be with him?
D&C 58; " 42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more."
From Shane Bowen of the Quorum of the Seventy, his talk and video entitled "The Atonement Can Clean, Reclaim, and Sanctify Our Lives"; "Also speaking of the Atonement, Jacob, the brother of Nephi, taught: “Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more” (2 Nephi 9:7).
The Atonement of Jesus Christ is available to each of us. His Atonement is infinite. It applies to everyone, even you. It can clean, reclaim, and sanctify even you. That is what infinite means—total, complete, all, forever. President Boyd K. Packer has taught: “There is no habit, no addiction, no rebellion, no transgression, no apostasy, no crime exempted from the promise of complete forgiveness. That is the promise of the atonement of Christ”
Matthew 20; " 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee."
Look carefully at Elder Hollands words; "Whether you are not yet of our faith or were with us once and have not remained, there is nothing in either case that you have done that cannot be undone. There is no problem which you cannot overcome. There is no dream that in the unfolding of time and eternity cannot yet be realized. Even if you feel you are the lost and last laborer of the eleventh hour, the Lord of the vineyard still stands beckoning. “Come boldly [to] the throne of grace,”3 and fall at the feet of the Holy One of Israel. Come and feast “without money and without price”4 at the table of the Lord."
He says very clearly, against your statement, that even someone who has refrained from doing good - they didn't remain in the church - that yes they can repent and the effects of that "not doing good" can be "undone". They "can feast without money and without price".
I wonder if you have an appreciation of what "grace" means - it is to give something for which the person did not pay a full price for or even for free. This is our religion - don't fight it. Read Elder Holland's talk "It is never to late", he explains that the parable of the laborers in the vineyard is about "grace". Elder Holland; "This is a story about God’s goodness, His patience and forgiveness, and the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a story about generosity and compassion. It is a story about grace." Elder Holland; "So don’t hyperventilate about something that happened at 9:00 in the morning when the grace of God is trying to reward you at 6:00 in the evening—whatever your labor arrangements have been through the day."
It is never too late!!! to undo completely the effects of not doing good - that is because God is merciful and the atonement of Christ is infinite and complete - not partial. This is all about the strength of faith one has in Christ. To say that there is some incomplete forgiveness is to say that even Christ' atonement is not that powerful, that demonstrates a lack of testimony and faith in Christ. I believe that Christ is that powerful and can be the "finisher" of our faith, to make up the difference that we could not or did not do ourselves so long as we have faith and repent. We do not have to do it all our selves!!! Satan tried to convince people that they did not need a Savior, that they should just be rewarded for their own deeds and receive all the glory in and of their self. He already lost that battle because that is not true. We need a Savior to complete the parts that we could not do for ourself. We receive that portion as a gift not as a payment of equivalent value to the work we did.
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Also, to be with God is to inherit all that He has. The prodigal son had to physically come back to his father to have all that he had, the other son had all the father had because he was physically with him. Christ does not separate the two facts like you are trying to do. To be with Him is to inherit all that He has and to inherit all that He has one has to have a desire to be one with Him. They are one in the samel, not two separate issues.
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While I agree that it's never to late to repent and be forgiven, prior to leaving this mortal realm, I would argue that the prodigal son did not receive a full inheritance again, upon his return. As a reference, the father, speaking to the elder son, says: "Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine." Hence, while the prodigal son's father completely forgave him for his poor decision, the consequences of that decision remained. In other words, the prodigal son had already spent his portion of his father's earthly estate, and although he was forgiven, he was in no way entitled to his brother's portion of their father's estate and would subsequently not be receiving an earthly inheritance upon his father's passing. That being said, as our Father's heavenly estate is not limited, we can all inherit all that the Father has. However, we cannot get back the blessings that are lost as a result of sin. For example, if I choose to engage in riotous living for 10 years, placing the gospel on the back burner, I can certainly repent, be forgiven, and one day inherit all that the Father has. What I can't do, is get back those 10 years and the blessings, learning, and spiritual development that could have accompanied them had I been righteous.
In the eternal view, what is 10 years? Is there really that much lost. We are given this time. We are given a probationary time for this purpose, to work it out. If in the end, we work it out, then there is nothing lost.
One key lesson from the Prodigal son is to not compare. That is the lesson. In other words, we are not supposed to take from this that one son deserved something different than the other. I think one misses the point of the story if one feels that way. Jeffery Holland said about this story; "The father in this story does not tantalize his children. He does not mercilessly measure them against their neighbors. He doesn’t even compare them with each other. His gestures of compassion toward one do not require a withdrawal or denial of love for the other. He is divinely generous to both of these sons."
In the same talk he also said; "It will help us always to remember Paul’s succinct prioritizing of virtues—“Now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” He reminds us we are all of the body of Christ, and that all members, whether comely or feeble, are adored, essential, and important. We feel the depth of his plea that there be “no schism in the body, but that the members … have the same care one for another. And [when] one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or [when] one member [is] honoured, all the members rejoice.” ... "Brothers and sisters, I testify that no one of us is less treasured or cherished of God than another. I testify that He loves each of us—insecurities, anxieties, self-image, and all. He doesn’t measure our talents or our looks; He doesn’t measure our professions or our possessions. He cheers on every runner, calling out that the race is against sin, not against each other. I know that if we will be faithful, there is a perfectly tailored robe of righteousness ready and waiting for everyone, “robes … made … white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Like you are saying, when true inheritance is received it does not take away from someone else. Whether someone is entitled to any inheritance or all inheritance is up to God to judge. When the prodigal son returns he is in the full graces of his father and is loved equally as he does the older son. There is no difference - that is one of the key points of the story.
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Okay, but doesn't then the priesthood take fathers out of the homes and make them less effective? And really, do you believe someone who has no desire to be a parent should in fact be a parent? How horrible for the child who is unwanted.
Life isn't one size fits all. It can't be - and doesn't have anything to do with humility. You could have legitimate reasons for not marrying. Perhaps there just was no one you met that you were compatible with, or you realize you have personal difficulties that would make marriage and parenthood impossible for you. And having children has a lot to do with biology, not going with God's will. I know women who have a difficult time because they can't easily concieve.
There can be a difference between desire and capacity. God will have to be the judge of that. We have to be kind in how we approach those that for whatever reason choose not to or are not able to be married and/or have children. But anyone and everyone can maintain a desire to live as God does, in a family unit, even if they cannot for whatever reason. The limitation, however, should never be because they don't desire it.
Again, God be the judge of that because I think there is a fuzzy line sometimes in people who tell their self that they are not capable because they have no desire and in grouping their self with people who actually try but cannot make it happen. If I cannot have children, for example, because I have to finish my schooling or I have a certain career responsibility or I fear what my peer group will think of me (for some reason the Specials song "too much too young" comes to mind) etc, that is a reflection of desire not capability - again for God to judge.
I have a dear friend, for example, that devoted herself to athletics at a young age, I was on teams with her, and she ended up taking it to a level, pushing herself, that affected her ability to have kids when she stopped those activities, even though they were a great source of fulfilment and enjoyment in her life, she regained the ability to have children. The desire is what made the difference for her, where her heart was. We all have to give up things of this world to become closer to God in some way or another and sometimes it is lifestyle or passions. Even if not possible, though, the desire is where God will ultimately judge us whether it was accomplished or not. Christ is the finisher of our faith, we are not expected to be the finisher - just the starter.
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I would be more curious to understand how others are interpreting "descend"? Descend - to pass from a higher state to a lower state.
How did Isaiah pass from a higher state to a lower state in scripture? Are individuals referring to his death?
Joseph, Jacob's son, is easily recognized -- a prince, to a slave, to second in command.
Moses, prince, to a shepherd, to the Lord's anointed as a deliverer.
If our descent, is simply -- trial -- I would agree with the sentiment. Our witness is after the trial of our faith.
As to the Lord's condescension, I don't see as many as some suggest that are throughout scripture. The tree is a wonderful analogy, but not sure if this is truly a descent as described, from a higher state to a lower state. The tree's status hasn't changed -- simply a period of dormancy, rejuvenation/preparation, for an upcoming season.
Great question. I had the same one as I started to read this thread. The descent is in terms of describing the temporary experience of mortality and all of its associated challenges and trials, not any change in character or self. When Jesus descended below all His character did not descend but what He experienced was a greater burden, pain, suffering, level of empathy etc. That descent does not describe His state of being a glorified King. It says in the scriptures that He increased in stature amongst man and God. He did not deccrease in stature even though what He experienced was descended below all. Descent does not equate with becoming evil or sinful but is associated with being exposed to carnality, sensuality and devilshness.
So, I agree, the descent is in terms of the trial, the test, how much our hands are tied behind our backs and we are blindfolded from all the help we had before but who we really are, our spiritual self has not fallen unless we take on the experience as self. If one takes on the suffering and associated despair and hopelessness that such a state brings then the spirit self becomes fallen but one can remain protected from such affects through Christ who overcame all, He was not affected by His descent in a negative way, it was not internalized but overcome.
Mosiah 16; " 5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God."
We are all at risk of making a temporary condition into a permanent way of being but there is hope in knowing this 'shall all pass'. D&C 122; 5 "If thou art called to pass through tribulation ..." 7;"... and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.
8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?" The "pass through" is an experience for our good.
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First I will apologize for starting a thread and then riding off into the sunset for a spell. But the expression of this thread has been on my mind for a while and I wanted to get it out in the forum. Though I will be quite tied up, I will endeavor to take time to peek in but it is not likely I will be able to think through my responses as well as I should.
Okay – here is the question. How much is changed through repentance? I believe the answer is that we receive blessings. But are the blessings the same, better, or less than if we had remained faithful? Let me give one possible example. Let us suppose that at general conference President Monson asks us all to read the Book of Mormon over the next 6 months and that if we will complete the task we will be granted special (or additional) blessings of peace and prosperity through difficult times coming. We then start out reading but by time we get to 2nd Nephi we are occupied by other things and do not complete the task within the requested 6 months. Thus we lose the blessing we were promised by President Monson. But then a year later as things become difficult in our lives we repent and over the following year complete a reading of the Book of Mormon. Should we now expect the same blessings that were initially promised?
We can also think of scenarios concerning callings, paying tithing, living the word of wisdom, speaking ill of the L-rd’s anointed, keeping the Sabbath holy and many other things. I am thinking that if we are disobedient we lose blessings. That by repenting we may qualify for new blessings but blessings lost from disobedience are in essence blessings lost and that karma may affect us moving forward in mortality and possibly even our treasures in Heaven – such as family relationships?
I think the story of the prodigal son suggests that it is never too late to come back and be a part of everything the Father has. Even though the prodigal son spent his inheritance he was accepted back into a full inheritance again.
Loss would occur if the character of the person remained in an awful state of being. We are judged by where we end up not necesarily how we got there. If 2 people die with their heart single to the glory of God and learned to love their neighbor as their self and were in that state of being when they died then they will receive similar blessings even if one of them took a little longer to have the change of heart.
Think of the greatness of the son of Alma even though he sought to destroy the church in his early years. I think his path allowed him to counsel his sons in a way that even gives us greater understanding of the process. In other words, his folly in his youth and that history allowed him to be able to counsel those that had similar struggles a little more specifically, the process became a blessing for them and for us as we read his stories. For example, his wisdom related to this process; Alma 41; " 5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.
6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness."
The desire is the most important aspect of the process, not how many times one has fallen or how long it takes to get up from the fall.
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I have a conflicting opinion.
On one hand, we know that children who die are not held accountable for any sins. They are pure and they are returned to the Father. We can read about that in Moroni 8 as well as many statements from General Authorities.
On the other head, I also believe in Eternal Progression - that we will be continuously learning, and making decisions based on experiences, even after this life. Is it possible to become like the Father without having had to make choices that could have the potential for mistakes and/or sin?
To me, I don't think that's possible.
Is there a conflicting doctrine? Yes and no.
For salvation, we know that little children will be saved.
But for exaltation - to grow and become more like the Father - I don't see how that can be done, except through experiences held and learned from.
As Anatess already stated, the pre-mortal life was completed by a test of faith, some were more faithful than others but all that arrive here were faithful to some degree. There was already a stratification of faithfulness made with the first estate test, it wasn't just a pass/fail test.
Also, there does not have to be forks in the road to have eternal progression. Eternal progression, at a certain point (after judgement and after receiving a "fullness"), could be more like a railroad track that has no turns or deviations. In other words, one could still progress without having opportunity to deviate from the course. Once we end this mortal test the track we find ourselves on is set, it cannot connect to another track as this life is a test of character, who we truly are. God will not make a mistake about who we really are in the end. If we are a Celestial character we will be on a Celestial track, if we are a Terrestrial character a terrestrial track etc. The test is not about how far down the track one gets but the revelation of what kind of person one is.
I think one should also consider what the word "inheritance" means. Inheritance cannot mean "earning" or "do-it-yourself" achievement. Inheritance typically means something that is received through the efforts of someone else.
Our reward at the end of this life is an inheritance not an achievement. So, when asking how one can receive something they did not do their self then question one's faith in a Savior that does something for us, advancing us to a status that we could not do for our self. We do believe in vicarious acts of advancement - we believe in a Savior. Satan would want us to believe that it is only done by individual merit and effort alone.
I like Elder Holland's statement when discussing the parable of the laborers in the vineyard; "Brothers and sisters, there are going to be times in our lives when someone else gets an unexpected blessing or receives some special recognition. May I plead with us not to be hurt—and certainly not to feel envious—when good fortune comes to another person? We are not diminished when someone else is added upon. We are not in a race against each other to see who is the wealthiest or the most talented or the most beautiful or even the most blessed. The race we are really in is the race against sin, and surely envy is one of the most universal of those." ..."His concern is for the faith at which you finally arrive, not the hour of the day in which you got there." ..."“Come boldly [to] the throne of grace,”3 and fall at the feet of the Holy One of Israel. Come and feast “without money and without price”4 at the table of the Lord."
In other words, there is no price to pay to feast upon the grace of the Lord other than faith. If sufficient faith was shown before this life then they will feast just like the rest of us that struggled with our faith and needed some extra time beyond the age of 8 to work it out.
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Greetings again my friend Seminary. I would thank you for asking your question and I intend to get straight to the "heart" of it in my response. :)
I think that we agree that the human organ that pumps blood through our physical body is not what is meant here. When we speak of the heart of something - what are the possibilities? To me the heart is the core of all that we are. It is the essence of us. I see the heart at the very center of all that is associated with what the heart can represent. I try to see this as broad as possible. I think you are trying to see and use the definition as limited and narrow as you can.
Taking a page from your thinking - I do not think that writing in our heart is something exclusive for our spirit - because exclusive spirit development was something accomplished in our pre-existance. I am quite sure that G-d wants us to discipline our physical body and our spirit to be harmonious to his commandments. It appears to me G-d wants us to commit both our physical and spirit to his commandments.
But I would say something concerning receiving spiritual enlightenment. Of most importance is to learn of Christ and remember him. I find it interesting that G-d wants us physically involved in the act of remembering Christ by taking the sacrament often to remember him. But the act needs to be more than a physical ritual - G-d wants us also to renew our remembrance of Christ spiritually as well. The sacrament is intended to integrate the remembrance of Christ through both our spirit and physical nature. Thus it is then written in our heart which is the whole complete center of our spirit and physical self and everything that is part of our nature and who we are.
For me, this life is primarily a test and also for experience. There is a chance to change but very little is given from our true nature. Our true spiritual nature is revealed by this experience, not so much developed. During the course of this mortal life we call it development because it is so hidden behind the veil that as it reveals itself it appears like "development" but it is more like remembering, remembering who we really are and where we came from. It is a form of restoration, redeeming, going back to where we were through the process of relying on a Savior. The distance we make it back to the previous state is a measurement of ones dependence on faith and spirituality. That is the test.
Often times "change" in the scriptures relates to the growth back from the fallen state. But if one takes a few steps back from the fallen state, to the pre-mortal realm, then it appears that "change" is really coming back to where we were.
If I showed you a puzzle, then pulled the pieces appart and then asked you to put it back together again in the middle of a thundering, lightning rain storm, one could improve the picture of the puzzle by putting the pieces back together again but at best it is to the point of which it started. The thing that is gained is an appreciation for how the puzzule came together in the first place and a respect for its individual pieces and the value of gaining one that is fully put together. Without having the experience of appreciating how difficult it is to put together one might not see the beauty of a finished puzzle as much as one who has been walked through the process a bit.
Just like taking a final exam, one hopes they have prepared as well as they could have before taking the test. During the test, sure, there may be things revealed and helps along the way to remind you of formulas one may have forgoten or a question that helps another question down the road. But the final exam should not be like the study class. Now is the time to pass the test or not.
The wording of a final exam isn't necesarily meant to represent what will actually happen in the "real" world to that specificity but more of the general lesson. If the test says that "Jack and Jill take separate trains heading opposite each other at 40 miles per hour but Jacks stops 2 hours before Jills, how far appart will they be in 7 hours?" That does not mean that in the real world someone would actually encounter a person named Jack and a person named Jill traveling in trains going 40 miles per hour traveling opposite each other etc. Likewise this life is a general test of character, not a specific one to test specific things we will deal with in the next life. We are told that if we are good stewards with small things we will be given much greater responsibility in the next life, not the same responsibility - a different one. If someone has to struggle with Down's sydrome in this life, that certainly does not mean they will have a similar struggle in the next life. Those that are low will be made high, etc. One cannot relate specific physical tests to actual physical states in the next life but the spiritual growth and faith filled lesson will prove valuable.
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If you are saying the end justifies the means - you just lot me with that last statement. For the record I am 180 degrees from what I think you are saying. I believe that the end is by the eternal law of G-d - justified by the means. We become what we are becoming. I do not believe it is possible to become what we are not currently and continually making an effort to become. If the end is for individual glory that end cannot ever be Celestial. This is precisely why the work and glory of G-d is not about his work and glory. I believe that just think about one's individual glory - changes the glory that results from our efforts. As much for others as for self.
Celestial glory is not individual, by definition. It cannot be individual glory, it is based in the success of others. God's glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. How does that sound like "individual" glory?
The end is to be one. The end is to be the same, to have 100%. 100% looks like 100% no matter how it arrived at that point. 100% is never individually different from another's 100%.
The Kingdom in which there is individual glory is the Telestial Kingdom where one "star" differs from another.
If one aims for "individual" glory they are aiming for Telestial or lower. We are aiming for being one, to have what God has, which is oneness with all the past present and future, thus becoming eternal.
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No! - it is my understanding that the spirit takes a very bright memory and complete recollection of everything we learn and experienced in this life. I would note that my understanding is not just from trying to interpret scripture.
Everything we learn by faith and experience through faith as well as things characteristics that are taken in by the spirit, these are things that are often described as being "written in our heart". What does the phrase "written in our heart" mean to you?
Paul explains (as he does often talking about the difference between carnal and spiritual things);
2 Cprinthians 2: " 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart."
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"9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away."
Things that are spiritual remaineth as glorious, things that are done away with may have glory for the moment but do not last (i.e - the body). But to remain, the veil which is upon the heart has to be removed, as Paul explains in verse 15. And that is done by turning to the Lord, then it can be written in the heart. If it is not written in the heart, it is done away with. Of course he is relating this to the law of Moses but knowing that the law of Moses was the lesser law that deals with what is on the surface, sanctifying the body in order to penetrate to the spiritual learning, the literal act of overcoming the body by Christ for all of us allows us to focus on the spiritual needs and learning, the things that are written in the heart.
Also, many have talked about the difference between spiritual learning vs secular learning that I know we have discusse in other threads.
This is the difference between spiritual learning vs secular learning, again explained by Paul; "
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
He is saying in no uncertain terms that if a person is undisciplined in faith (reprobate concerning the faith) that they can learn but never come to the knowledge of the truth and proceed no further because they did it without faith.
"14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;" WIth faith we can continue in what we have learned if we acknowledge where they have come from.
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It is my understanding that our spirit takes with it all that was learned and experienced in this life. That everything will be a "BRIGHT" relocation and that nothing will be lost or forgotten. Whatever happened to the body will be recorded and remembered perfectly to every last detail by the spirit - so much more than what is remembered in mortality. The power of the priesthood will be exercised to clean and purify our spirits according to our agency in preparation for the resurrection - much like baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost does or should in this life. In fact we will learn that baptism by the power of the priesthood is just a beginning that must be completed before other "things" of the priesthood can take place.
I would add - that it is my understanding that so subtle is our passing that few even realize when we actually die because they do not realize that their spirit is not longer joined to their body.
It takes with it all that was learned by the principle of faith and experience, that is a key component to not leave out. You are trying to include things that were not experienced.
We already did that kind of learning before coming here, all of us. We matured and learned all we could while in the presence of God for eons and eons, more than we possibly could learn even if you added all the learning of man together throughout the years man has been on Earth. Both you and I and everyone has learned all that man could learn from a secular standpoint before coming here, all knowledge of science, math, medicine, anatomy, social sciences, etc. All of that was learned. The thing we didn't have a chance to learn in the pre-mortal life was the experience of having to live by faith. This is what we take in addition to what we already learned. All the other stuff is not in addition to what we have previously learned.
Elder Bednar; "Learning by faith and from experience are two of the central features of the Father’s plan of happiness. The Savior preserved moral agency through the Atonement and made it possible for us to act and to learn by faith. Lucifer’s rebellion against the plan sought to destroy the agency of man, and his intent was that we as learners would only be acted upon."
Elder Bednar; "The learning I am describing reaches far beyond mere cognitive comprehension and the retaining and recalling of information. The type of learning to which I am referring causes us to put off the natural man (see Mosiah 3:19), to change our hearts (see Mosiah 5:2), to be converted unto the Lord, and to never fall away (see Alma 23:6). Learning by faith requires both “the heart and a willing mind” (D&C 64:34). Learning by faith is the result of the Holy Ghost carrying the power of the word of God both unto and into the heart. Learning by faith cannot be transferred from an instructor to a student through a lecture, a demonstration, or an experiential exercise; rather, a student must exercise faith and act in order to obtain the knowledge for himself or herself."
Also, when we repent, truly, we will remember them no more. They will be washed completely.
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Do Latter Day Saints believe that those who die single in this life can marry in the next? If a saint is married in the next life, is this a proxy marriage in which two living people take part in a proxy ceremony so that the dead person can be sealed to their spouse?
President Lorenzo Snow“There is no Latter-day Saint who dies after having lived a faithful life who will lose anything because of having failed to do certain things when opportunities were not furnished him or her. In other words, if a young man or a young woman has no opportunity of getting married, and they live faithful lives up to the time of their death, they will have all the blessings, exaltation, and glory that any man or woman will have who had this opportunity and improved it. That is sure and positive” (Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, 138).
Elder Richard G. Scott“If you are single and haven’t identified a solid prospect for celestial marriage, live for it. Pray for it. Expect it in the timetable of the Lord. Do not compromise your standards in any way that would rule out that blessing on this or the other side of the veil. The Lord knows the intent of your heart. His prophets have stated that you will have that blessing as you consistently live to qualify for it” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1999, 33; or Ensign, May 1999, 27).
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How to determine if a spirit is being disadvantaged in any experience? - including an Alzheimer experience? First off, I am of the believe that the default condition of being a fallen entity is that if a spirit is not being strengthened by an experience that by condition of the fall and being subject to evil - we can understand by the principle of opposition that the spirit is being weakened. Thus the question we should ask is - does having Alzheimer's bring a person closer to G-d which means help them keep his commandments?
I myself cannot honestly answer that question directly and completely - only if I speculate and I am not a big fan of speculation without some compelling evidence or reason and then leaving opportunity for learning additional possibilities. In essence I see such a question as a problem with too many unknowns. I am inclined to speculate with what reason is available that such a condition of Alzheimer's of itself does not or is not helpful or hurtful but that perhaps there can be conditions concerning spiritual parameters that could offer solution to the question. In short I am thinking that having Alzheimer's will be damaging to the human spirit unless there is some divine assistance to turn such an experience to something beneficial. I say this because I believe this to be the case with whatever experience one may be having. However, I am open to new ideas based on rational principles that are isotropic (meaning consistent) with verifiable experience - and not so much based on untested personal prejudices.
Actually Seminary - I think this thought is 100% what you are trying to say concerning that G-d judges according to the desire of our heart. But I do not believe that concept is direct enough - rather I am thinking that in such a struggle that the efforts of the spirit to seek out divine assistance is similar but perhaps more descriptive.
"Disadvantage" is not what you were suggesting. Disadvantage is a temporary situation in which the entity is not really changed but their situation makes them not 100% itself, implying the disadvantage is a temporary state and can be removed. You were suggesting that the spirit has some intrinsic, long lasting effect characteristic effect. The fleshy veil of our body can disadvantage the spirit and yet the spirit is either strengthened by the experience or can remain unchanged by it or can be broken by the disadvantage. The disadvantage doesn't automatically alter the spirit. And the "disadvantage" is not self, it is something external to self. If it was self then disadvantage is not the right word, you should say "fault", "failure", "shortcoming" or something like that. I think "disadvantage" is a good word but that is not what you are implying.
Look, if I had one World's strongest man on one end of a rope pulling against another World's strongest man it wouldnt be fair to say that World's strongest man number one is weak because the rope is not moving one way or the other. If one is only looking at the rope to measure strength and ability then, yes the rope is not moving anywhere. And even if World's strongest man (runner up) #2 was to lose the tug of war, he might be strengthened by the experience, you wouldn't say that he was weakened by it. The loss of the tug-of war could weaken the runner up if he said, "I lost, I am no good at this, I am weak" Then he takes on the characteristics of the effect of the opposition and shows no integrity. This life is a test of integrity, can we be our true self and maintain our true identity under these unbelievable conditions, having fallen very far from our previous self. The key is in knowing that this life is temporary, it is a probationary existence that will all end in a short time for each of us. Have an eternal perspective.
The hang up that you have is that you have a hard time separating the "opposition" from self, it is all one in the same to you. Whatever happens to the body happens to the spirit for you. This is a mistake. Anyone who knows what happens to a soul with Trisomy 21 while in this temporary life knows that that is not true. When you die, you will leave the corrupted body behind and all that goes with it. But, if the spirit learns to like those weaknesses then it will take those characteristics with it but it doesn't have to.
Opposition is to strengthen, not to incorporate into something less than what we started with. We are fallen so that we might have joy.
Read this one carefully; 2 Nephi 2: "1 And now, Jacob, I speak unto you: Thou art my firstborn in the days of my tribulation in the wilderness. And behold, in thy childhood thou hast suffered afflictions and much sorrow, because of the rudeness of thy brethren.
2 Nevertheless, Jacob, my firstborn in the wilderness, thou knowest the greatness of God; and he shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain."
Wow, abused by his brothers and yet made stronger for it. How could that be?
By the way, the purpose of keeping the commandments is to have a chance to learn how to depend on faith in the Lord so that we might love God with all our heart, might and mind and in that struggle reaching out for our Savior's help often as we attempt to keep the commandments. Whether one keeps them or not is less important than what is in the heart - the whole letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. So, whether Alzheimer's brings people closer to God or not is not judged by how many commandments they keep but how their soul becomes dependent on the saving grace of our Lord.
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Hmmmmm - I have thought that the opposition is in essence equal or if anything in slight favor for evil as the default of the natural man which is to side with the opposition to G-d. That the difference for us will be a result of our agency which is a spiritual characteristic first exercised in its infancy in the per-existence.
If one takes away Christ it is unfavorable and only looks at mortality. But, we know we have a Savior and we have an eternal perspective and so the end result is an overwhelming win!! This was the argument in the war in Heaven - why take the chance, you may lose. That was a lie of an arguement, only a few will be lost, the overwhelming majority will receive a degree of glory and be nothing like natural man.
A third of the host of Heaven sided with Lucifer, not 50% or greater. And on top of that as Joseph Smith said; "All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not."
How many souls will not receive a degree of glory that have lived here compared to all those that do? In that draws the line between good and evil from a spiritual stand point. Right now we are also dealing with the evil from those that were cast out. But that will be overcome. Pretty much every one of us here is a being of glory, only a handfull will not achieve such a thing. The majority of spirit children of God are not evil. This life is a test for all those that got an "A" so-to-speak during the war in Heaven. It is a test to see how great a reward we can handle - A Celestial one, a Terrestrial one or a Telestial one.
Pretty much all the spirits in this world receive a gift in the end, that is how great they are, not evil. D&C 88; " 33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift." It just depends on how much of a gift we want. If we say that hardly anybody deserves a gift, that we are naturally evil for example, then that is the same thing as not receiving the gift. One of the tools of Satan is to make us think that we are not children of God and that who we really are is what we see in the outer man. If one does not have an eternal perspective than it does seem that way, that we are all evil. However, with an eternal perspective we are all glorious. The degree of the glory depends on how much of the gift we are willing to receive.
D&C 74: " 88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.
89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;"
Even those that reach the lowest Kingdom of glory are "heirs of salvation" and live in a place that "surpasses all understanding"
1 Corinthians; "“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” If all are made alive, which force is greater?
Elder Theodore Burton; "All mankind will thus receive general salvation, excepting the sons of perdition. Following their resurrection, “they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.” (D&C 88:32.)
These sons of perdition (perhaps only few in number) will be resurrected but will not be redeemed from the power of Satan because they are still filthy; as the prophet Alma said of them: “… they shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God’s justice; and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption.” (Alma 12:18.)"
Then end result is not even close.
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The spirits of children are untouched by abuse? How can we then say that there is abuse? What possible problem could there be in abusing children if their spirits remain untouched? I see the answer as many fold but Proverbs 22:6 indicates that the manner in which a child is raised has influence on their life later as an adult. Every modern study I have seen reaches exactly the same conclusion -- mess up someone's childhood and they will suffer spiritually the rest of their mortal life. Children are our most important spiritual concern - not our lease concern.
I would submit that children are directly in the cross-hairs of Satan's greatest efforts - and it is not because he is stupid or that on the day children become accountable all his efforts will be lost and he will have to start over. To suggest that children are spiritually safe and that we should concentrate all our efforts on older individuals that have reached accountability - is silly, stupid, sick and wrong.
To be clear I am not saying that children are accountable - what I am saying is that there will be accountability for spiritual damage to children - just that it will not rest on the child but to be sure there is accountability for spiritually corrupting children. It appears to me that you are saying that there is no spiritual damage or even possible spiritual damage and therefore no one need fear what spiritual harm may come to small children. No harm no foul?
I will go even deeper into this. If an adult brings unclean spiritual influence into a home through videos or other such things and thinks to protect children by not allowing the children to see or hear - I honestly believe and have observed that such efforts are false and that bringing such unclean spirits into the home where there are, that the children will be spiritually harmed. You seem to think children are protected therefore no damage is done to children. You and I disagree greatly - I also believe that a parent that is dishonest in their business dealings (or any number of other things) outside of their home will unwittingly bring unclean spirits that will spiritually infect their children as surely as as exposing them to "physical" sicknesses. Furthermore unlike you I do not believe children are spiritually protected but just the opposite -- that children under the age of accountability are far more spiritually vulnerable and less protected than someone that is accountable and can protect themselves. The only reason they leave life through death with any relief is because of the atonement of Christ.
As I understand the responsibilities of an adult - not only do we have responsibilities to teach children correct principles and introduce them to a good spiritual environment that will not harm them - I believe we are responsible to insure that children (not just our own) are not introduced into any unclean spiritual environments -- Because I believe that they are extremely vulnerable and very susceptible to unclean spiritual exposure.
Like I have stated, the effect can be on the wiring of the brain without touching the spirit.
You are having a hard time separating effects to the body vs effects to the spirit. Yes the brain is developing and a child is moldable and to learn wisdom in our youth is important but the spirit is an adult and fully matured.
Again, think of the example of Alzheimer's, does Alzheimer's hurt the spirit? Alzheimer's affects cognition and yet hardly anyone would believe that the spirit also has Alzheimers. The spirit's capabilities cannot be seen in that scenary but that doesn't mean they have changed underneath. So, either one believes there are two aspects or forms of cognition, i.e - spirit self and mortal body self, or one has to believe that Alzhiemer's or any other physical condition is also affecting the spirit and cannot be separated. If someone gets shot in the brain and they are kept alive on ventilators for a period of time but are "brain dead" and then they die, I don't think anyone here would believe that the bulet to the brain caused some long lasting spiritual 'bulet to the brain' effect. So, how is it that someone could be physical brain dead but not spiritual brain dead? Because those are two separate things.
A child who has been abused as a child and dies before the age of 8 wil not carry any of the negative effects of the abuse with them into the next world.
The moment the child hits the age of accountability they are suddenly faced with being accountable for how the character of the body influences the spirit but, you know, we all face different amounts and kinds of challenges in life. Yes the person responsible for such grief will be held accountable but the challenge wasn't as a result of some kind of spiritual weakness on the part of the child. Oftentimes the magnitude of the challenges we face in this life are inversely related to our spiritual character.
If a child was abused and it does affect them later in life, then, as harsh as this may sound, they were likely put in that situation for a reason, that is one of the challenges they were supposed to face in life just like if they were to get rhuematic fever as a child. Remember that sometimes bad things happen to good people because they will stand witness to those that do bad. Alma 14; " 11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day." Some of these brave and righteous souls volunteered for such a position, to have that challenge in life, to be called to stand witness against those that did evil to them and this is why God lets these things happens sometimes. But it is important to know that the spirit of the person affected by such evil doing is not evil because that is happening to them. It is not a reflection of the status of their spirit any more than the blind man commited some sin to be blind at birth.
I like these two quotes in that regard; "As Elder Neil L. Andersen of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has said, “Distancing yourself from the kingdom of God during a trial of faith is like leaving the safety of a secure storm cellar just as the tornado comes into view.”
Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has taught, “Peace comes from knowing that the Savior knows who we are and knows that we have faith in Him, love Him, and keep His commandments, even and especially amid life’s devastating trials and tragedies.”
God knows who we really are, we are not the sum of how the world corrupts the brain and its drives but the spirit within that could still be holding onto faith despite the devastating storms of abuse and tragedy one faces. What matters is the inner man.
And D&C 121; "6 Remember thy suffering saints, O our God; and thy servants will rejoice in thy name forever.
7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;
8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes."
Often our afflictions are for a small moment - but not permanent!! If we endure we triumph over them even if they are kept a lifetime like Paul's thorn in the flesh, they shall be gone when we die and return to the dust they came from.
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Long winded? Sure. Unkind? I don't think so.
Hey, I thought I had him beat in the long winded department.
I enjoy Travelers posts even though it may not seem like it in my responses. A forum is to discuss ideas. People that are willing to participate in the discussion should always be welcomed. I think the most annoying posts are the ones that kill the discussion altogether like ones that say, "that hasn't been revealed so forget about it" or something to that effect. Although I think it is wise to keep the discussion within the realm of possibility so that readers don't get the wrong impression about LDS gospel. This forum is great for all those topics you wish you could talk about in Sunday School but realize the teachers have been instructed to not stray away from the lesson plan too far.
Keep going Traveler!
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Part of my problem in this discussion is that I believe that man is capable of recognizing all truth - this is according to covenant that man would be guided in mortality with the spirit of Christ. How we recognize spiritual things may be just as you have said - our spirit is integrated with our physical self and it is almost impossible to separate the two in how we learn and recognize truth. In essence every truth has a spiritual foundation.
But there is another problem in our discussion - we really do not know what spiritual stuff is. We could be seeing it and utilizing spiritual stuff all the time - not even knowing it is spiritual stuff. Sometime things are hidden in full sight - the problem being that if we do not know what to look for; we will not see it. Interestingly it has been scientifically proven that if a person's mind cannot make sense of what we are looking at our brain will simply remove that from the picture of our cognition.
I am inclined to believe that we do not sense spirit stuff because we are confused about what we are looking for. You are convinced it is not something that can be learned or taught - I have tried to explore where you have obtained the knowledge concerning that for which you also say we cannot have knowledge. To me your argument is contradictory and thus rhetorically flawed.
"Man" by definition is both body and spirit. This is why it is important to use terms like "the human brain" or body to specify what you mean by saying "man". To me, "man" is both spirit and body. Sometimes in scriptures the word "man" is used to represent carnal man or "natural man" (used by Paul to distinguish that aspect of man) whereas the "heart of man" represents the spirit. For example look at Paul's use of the word; 1 Corinthians; "9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
It is impossible for us to separate the two for the most part and that is why we cannot judge. We do not have the ability to understand in any one person what they face in terms of that internal struggle, what they have been given in terms of talents and traits of the body vs what they bring with them from their own spiritual character. Ones ability to separate the two depends on their spirituality and ability to spiritually discern.
You are wrong about the brain. If the mind cannot make sense of what we see or learn it will make up a reasonable explanation for the event, a false story, and we take it as truth. It does not simply ignore it. This has been shown over and over again. If someone witnesses a crime and they are not sure who did it but they realize there was someone with a hoodie or a goatee or tattoos then that person is more likely to be blammed for the crime even though it may not have been the person. It has also been shown that if a person tells a lie over and over again they start to believe it is true, even when they knew it was a lie originally.
I am sure that our spirit self uses spiritual "stuff" all the time and it is all around our spirits and you are right we don't see it with natural eyes and yet our spirit still uses it, like when our spirit is touched by the Holy Ghost.
Our inability to distinguish the two is why we sing songs like "I am a child of God", we have to be reminded of who we really are. We are not this fallen body, "man" we are the sons an daughters of God, our spiritual self, which is very hard to see under the courseness of this body. This mortal body and all of its features, unless adopted by the spirit of that person, will return to dust from where it came. We do not want to take up treasures of the earth (including things of the body as the body is of the earth) as they will turn to dust. In other words, we do not take pride in our earthly talents but what the spirit learns from this experience. We do not pride ourselves with things like whether a person is more learned or not - it may be feature of the dusty body, or whether is a person is a star athelete or a talented instrument player or an attractive person - those may be features of the body alone. We do treasure the growth by the spirit when dealing with these talents.
I like the verses in "O, God the Eternal Father"; "
3. When Jesus, the Anointed,
Descended from above
And gave himself a ransom
To win our souls with love–
With no apparent beauty,
That man should him desire–
He was the promised Savior,
To purify with fire.
4. How infinite that wisdom,
The plan of holiness,
That made salvation perfect
And veiled the Lord in flesh,
To walk upon his footstool
And be like man, almost,
In his exalted station,
And die, or all was lost."
One of the few instances where it suggests the body itself is the veil, almost hiding our true nature and even for Christ there was no apparent beauty, no outside beauty for man to be attracted to, it was all internal - spiritual. It is important to try to separate body vs spirit for those reasons.
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I wanted to focus on this part of your post. I have known little children under the age of accountability that were in horrid spiritual conditions and that even though they were removed from such conditions before the age of accountability have continued to suffer spiritual hardships their entire life because of conditions that befell them as little children. I have found the spiritual environment of little children to be of prime importance and that all adults have a responsibility to spiritually protect little children despite your insistence that such efforts are unnecessary because they are "kept alive in Christ".
I disagree strongly with your stand that little children cannot be corrupted or touched in any way by unclean spiritual influences.
Their spirits cannot. Again you are combining what happens to a person's body and what happens to their spirit as if they are one in the same.
If someone gets Alzheimers that does not mean their spirit gets Alzheimers. If you would agree to that, why do you have such a hard time understanding that is the case with children. If children are not raised properly or abused that will be on the head of the person who abuses them as well as the sum total of its effects throughout that childs life. And then there are predispositions that are purely of the body. Whether a person takes on the hardships given to them in this life via the body after the age of accountability is up to the person.
I've got news for you, pretty much everyone suffers a spiritual let down from where they were before this life but the experience doesn't have to make a person take on that experience as their own or cause a change in their character. Did Jesus take into His own spirit all the things He experienced in the Garden of Gethsemane? Knowledge of good and evil does not make a person evil when they did not have knowledge of evil before. Otherwise Christ would have been made evil by the process as well. A child who dies before the age of 8 is not negatively spiritually affected by the fallen state she was in prior to her death. If you disagree then their would be accountability as well as the need to baptize before the age of 8. That is what is meant by being "untainted". President Joseph F. Smith wrote; "The Lord truly knows best and we know that the innocents who have been recalled from earth, so soon after their coming untainted by the sordid elements of this fallen world return to Him from whom they came, pure and holy, redeemed from the foundation, by the sacrifice of one who said “of such is the kingdom of heaven."
Once a person passes the age of accountability they then face the corrupted nature of the brain, carnality and animalistic drives that may have been building up strength throughout their under age 8 years. Whereas those that learn wisdom in their youth and have been blessed with love in the home will face less of a challenge after reaching the age of 8. Either way, both the spirit that has to face an even more carnal body compared to one that is kept less carnal were maintained spiritually pure up until the age of 8.
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Question: Is there opposition in all things? Next question: If G-d can and will heal all pain and suffering - what is in opposition to such healing and who is behind it?
There is opposition but the opposition is not equal, we know who will win that battle, ending the opposition.
The fallen world and all things that pertain to it is behind the pain and suffering that comenced with the Fall of Adam and Eve that was as a result of the Devil's temptation. Behind that is God's plan for us to have a chance with agency, a probationary period in which we will have to choose between carnal things and spiritual things. Spiritual choices are made available by our Savior in that we start with the light of Christ and then we have the comforter to help us as well as Christ' gospel. On the other hand (the opposition), we have the corruption of the world around us which includes our bodies and Satan and his followers who have been given some command over the things of this world enough to bruise our heel. But we have power to crush his head, an uneven opposition.
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Your response is still not very clear - do we agree that spiritual stuff can be discerned through our corrupted physical senses?
If that is your question, I believe that the physical cannot discern the spiritual. The problem one is going to have in that kind of argument is the fact that right now we are both physical and spiritual. How could one separate the spiritual from the physical to allow for a test of just the physical capability? There is only one way to see that, when a person has becomed hardened to the spirit, when they have become 100% carnally minded, when their heart is hardened and their eyes have been obscured. In that setting, there is not much enlightenment for anything.
Possibly (and this is really speculation and pondering without having any real knowledge of this) those before the first man, which is a being with both body and spirit, there could have been beings that were just physical (in other words, did not possess a spirit of man) and the limitations of their senses are revealed. How far did those beings get in "seeing" God?
These are untestable and unproven issues other than what we read about these things from the prophets or scriptures which is very limited.
If someone claims they have seen something spiritual and they actually have, I think most in the LDS culture would agree that they have seen it through "spiritual eyes" and not carnal eyes. Even if it seems like it is through carnal eyes, like they say, "I know not whether I was in my own body or not" or something of that sort one could not separate out which aspect of that information was only discerned by the spirit vs the cerebral cortex only. There is a special situation in which information is directly from spirit to spirit and most of the time that is mediated by the Holy Ghost, pretty much every other piece of information is received via the cerebral cortex and then spiritually discerned or not.
Does the spirit remember every dream our brain made up even if we don't remember having dreams in any given night? I don't think everything the body experiences or learns is written in the soul. I think it takes spiritual effort and aptitude to make that happen.
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You are making an assumption that pain disease and mental illness is not associated in any way with unclean spirits. It is interesting that scripture indicates otherwise. As fallen entities we are subject to the Devil and the pain and suffering he can cause us to endure. I would also point to what we know of the millennium - that the Devil will be unable to inflict man and during that time there will be no sickness, disease, pain or suffering. It would appear indeed that sickness, disease, pain and suffering are all because of Satan having power over men and that when Satan is removed such things are no more.
I have always been interested in the placebo effect and that a person's attitude (spiritually) has a great deal to do with dealing with various infirmities.
I think you didn't read the "Don't get me wrong...." paragraph.
Not "all" disease and mental illness. I said I agree with "at times" an actual unclean spirit being is involved.
What happens in the millenium? Our body changes. Don't forget that. Some of the effects on the body are reversed, most of the corruption is removed. There is enough to allow for agency but the veil is partly lifted and the body changes similar to its body in the Garden of Eden.
Because of the Fall we are subject to the pain and suffering the Devil can inflict, which is through the body and secondarily changing our spirit. This mortal body, which was brought on by the Devil's temptation in the Garden of Eden, allows for that suffering through its corruption. I suppose if a situation requires a little more of that suffering or buffeting than already is given through our corrupted body then their might be some personal touch given.
If the Devil really had that much power over a person's spirit, why didn't he exhibit that power in the first estate test? I think the Devil gave it all he had during the first estate battle, I don't think it was a half effort allowing some spirits to slip through the cracks to be tested here. We were fully veted and tested spirits upon arriving here, every one of us, now is the test of the spirit and body.
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Oh no, you misunderstand me. I wasn't talking about actual full-blown possession, I was asking if whether or not, when we give in to temptations, the spirit(s) responsible actually receive pleasure along with you. It would explain why they would even want to do so in the first place. They want to satisfy their appetites through you. This also aligns with what Alma said about those same spirits "possessing" our bodies.
"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this, for that same spirit which doth possess you bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world." (Alma 34:34)
If not, then I'm sure it would just come down to simple spite and/or dominance as I mentioned before.
I think Alma 34 is refering to our own spirit. The characteristics exhibited or formed while in this life to our own spirit will remain and possess the body in the next life. Now is the time to change our characteristics, our probationary time, as after this life it will remain that way with those same characteristics.
Evil spirits find joy in making us miserable as they are, that is where their satisfaction comes from. They enjoy bringing others down as opposed to experiencing something good for themselves. It is interesting that eternal joy is the exact opposite - to find joy in the success of others. God's eternal joy is to bring about the eternal life of man. Evil spirits find pleasure in the eternal destruction of man with some misguided thought that that makes their situation better. (Is what I imagine).
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Are we on this merry path again of using the word Sin to mean two different things?
For Traveler - doing bad things is a sin regardless of whether you know it is bad or not. It's a black or white - this is right, this is wrong. Those that you did wrong without knowledge is automatically atoned for by Christ without need for repentance.
For Seminary - doing bad things is not a sin if you have no knowledge or have not developed the necessary maturity to exercise free agency as there is no need for repentance since Christ atoned for all our sins.
I don't know about you... but they both sound the same to me.
What makes it different is that I am saying that little children have a special status in which they are not capable of sinning because of the protection received and in place as a result of the atonement. Whereas Traveler is saying that children still sin but it is quickly taken away or erased by the atonement after it is performed as a sin. I am saying because of the atonement they cannot sin in the first place.
But then the debate is how can they do "bad" things and it not be called a "sin" even if Christ immediately clears it up? It is because we are dual beings and the body will drive it's corrupted nature when the spirit is not in control, either because a person has let that happen or because the person is not really capable of having reasonable control either because of age or other condition.
I earlier gave the example of someone slipping something in someone's drink and then the person commits extramarital sex. Is that a sin? If it is not a sin then how can the person act in a way that is against the will of God and it is not called sin? Because an act of the body may not be the same thing of an act when the spirit is in control of the body (for the most part). This is exemplified by the Apostles falling asleep in the garden, the spirit is willing but the body is weak - the body couldn't do it. What won out in that setting? The body won out over the spirit. Is that a sin? no. Why? Because there are times and situations in which God realizes we cannot run faster than we are capable, the body is weak and only He knows what those weaknesses are for any given person.
I have a feeling (can't speak for him) that he would suggest we are accountable for all our actions without any consideration to the situation, child, mentally handicapped, or drug impaired, it is all the same, sin is sin.
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I have been around children enough to know that they will on occasion lie despite that they know that lying is wrong. From your posts - I assume that you have not been present when this has actually occurred? I also remember well when I was younger than 8, by a few years - knowingly telling lies, causing many problems, feeling sorry and making a determination to avoid lying because I was sure it was wrong and knew it was wrong and knew that I was tempted to lie. Then even after such determination I have very good recollection of hatching plans to lie again before I even did the things I planed to lie about. Since your interpretation of such things is so different than my experience - I can only assume that either you have not observed that children will lie or you chose to ignore your own childish lies or you observe as I have but have chosen to deny such experiences ever happened - perhaps to justify your point of view and interpretation of religious ideas.
BTW - did you happen to catch that part in Alma 42:9-10 where he clearly states that spirits are corrupted because of the fall just like the physical flesh is corrupted?
I have 4 children, I know all about the struggles of children.
I also know that little children are kept alive in Christ before the age of accountability. You can focus on one step of the process as if that is everything but I think it would be good to look at the whole picture as well. Because there is spiritual death we need a Savior. Because we have a Savior we can be kept alive in Christ and not experience the spiritual death and corruption at least until the age of accountability or for those who have conditions in which they cannot hold accountability (i.e - Down's syndrome, etc.).
I think you would like to believe that Christ's ability to keep them "alive" is not that strong, that somehow there remains some mark of corruption on their spirits. This is not true. Christ's atonement fully satisfies the otherwise effect of the spiritual separation and protects little children from the effects of the Fall, 100%. Spiritual death has no effect on little children because they are kept alive in Christ. Do you not think that Christ can keep them "alive" (spiritually)? Don't you think that is within His power? He says he has as well as many of the leaders of the church who receive His word. In fact, Mormon warns not to think otherwise because it is a disbelief in Christ' power if you believe he cannot do that or that it is not complete.
As far as little children lying etc. and even the example I gave of a 6 year commiting murder, this is all as a result of having a corrupted body and the spirit not yet capable of forcing its influence over the body. God knows the difference and has accounted for that, why can't you? I can tell you why you have a hard time with this, it is because you believe that every thought and action we have and do emanates from the spirit alone. That is your hang up. Open your mind and understanding and realize that we are dual beings. We are not a being with a cover, we are dual beings, each with its own nature. Before we reach the age of 8 and in people who cannot be held accountable (such as in Down's syndrome) the body overpowers the spirit to such a degree that there is no significant agency enough to allow for accountability. Thus, we call it the age of accountability.
If that were not the case, what does "age of accountability" refer to? We know we come to this world as fully matured spirits having spent eons of time in the presence of our Heavenly Father and developing all the traits we could. We even made a very responsible decision in the first estate test, proving our ability to be held accountable for our decisions. If that is the case then how could there be an "age of accountability"? It is because we are not talking about some needed development of the spirit. The "age of accountability" is refering to the age of the body. Why would the age of the body matter if the input to the dynamic between the body and spirit is a one way street? It wouldn't. Obviously the body has some power and influence over what we call sin, enough to have to wait 8 years until it a level enough playing field that the dynamic between body and spirit allows for a test.
If the Chicago Bulls played our local junior high basketball team, there would be no fair contest. Baring some miracle (like when babies spoke in tongues) the Chicago Bulls would win every time. There would have to be some "special status" for that contest until they devloped enough to really be a challenge for them. Likewise, when my children were learning how to walk and fell to the ground, I didn't yell at them or punish them in any way, they had a special understanding that they are not capable or responsible for such falls. If a child fell while walking later in life then I would say there is something wrong and take them to the doctor. Children have a special status in the eyes of the Lord in which they remain untainted from the effects of the Fall despite their bodies being corrupted and doing things their spirits would not want them to do. If they exhibit any lack of control after the age of accountability then that is potentially called a sin but not before.
The thing you might be having difficulty with is admitting to the fact that the body can act against the will of God without the spirit controling that action. That lack of control in those older than the age of 8 is called being carnally minded when it is related to something that we are supossed to control (not all actions of the body). The body can sleep despite the spirit wanting it to do otherwise, like what happened with the Apostles. We cannot run faster than we are capable. How fast can any one person "run"? God only knows that, knowing the relative strengths and weaknesses of both the body and spirit for any given individual.
We each have been given different challenges. My daughter has a hard time getting to bed early where I don't, this is a body issue, possibly not spiritual. They have mapped out the genes that control circadian rythm, the hper2 gene that tells the body to stay awake longer. Her genes may be different than mine, as her battles would be different than mine. There are likely genes that make a body be attracted to the same sex, that person's battles in life are different than mine. The battle is still the basic one that Elder Bednar explained, which source do we follow, the drives of the body or of the spirit and to what degree. The result of that test depends on the variables that we have no access to, but God does. He also knows when the battle is not a fair one and accomodates that situation as He has allowed for those under the age of 8. He flooded the world with that same concern, to make the playing field more conducive to the test. The genetic dispositions of those that died in the flood were too strong for spirits to resist and would thwart the purposes of this life.
If this life was just a test of the spirit then we would be repeating the same test we took in the first estate. This test is a test of integrity, a character test. Will we do the things we said we would even when we are not in 100% control and forces are against us, such as what happens in the "heat of the battle". Will the soldier act the way he was trained to do and performed well in boot camp even when he is in the heat of the battle? Our spirits are already proven, now is the heat of the battle test where we are not 100% ourself.
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Before accountability there is law. See Alma 42. The whole chapter is on law, justice and the mercy of G-d. Some interesting point in this chapter of Alma you may find helpful.
In verses 7 & 9 - that the fall of man was both temporal (physical) as well as spiritual. Thus the spirit was corrupted as much as was the physical and the spirit of man needed redemption from the fall as much or more so than the spirit. From verses 9:10
Note: that as carnal and sensual is for the most part physical that devilish is for the most part spiritual. Thus man (both temporally and spiritually is fallen. That in the fall, the spirit was as corrupted as was the physical
Now from verse 22
Note that the requirement for sin - is that there must be a law and that justice does not concern itself with accountability in order to determine if there is a punishment but fixes a punishment according to the law - NOT ACCOUNTABILITY. Note that if there is a law then there there must be a punishment - if it were not so then G-d would cease to be G-d.
The reason that children are not held accountable is because Christ has taken upon him their punishment and they are redeemed from sin.
Christ satisfies the demands of justice for children insomuch as they are not capable of commiting sin as stated by Mormon. And so long as we stay within the redeeming graces of the effect of Christ's atonement then we are not subject to the law. Christ's atonement satisfies the law. Mosiah 15; " 9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice." Alma 42 is the discussion for which we better understand the need for a Savior. And that has happened already. We don't have to go back to those earlier steps, we are beyond that now.
The law alone does not allow for a state of probation or a chance to make it right. 2 Nephi 2; " 21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents."
Articles of Faith; " 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
As Christ has satisfied the demands of the law and justice now we are beholden to Him and His gospel. WIthin His gospel and His requirement for us, He has accounted for all those that die before the age of accountability as well as those that have limited accountability and will judge us based on accountability and the laws that are given. We can be made alive in Christ and avoid the effects of spiritual death, "all mankind may be saved" and children are saved from the foundation of the world (meaning from the very beginning - i.e they were never not saved).
Do you really disbelieve Mormon's statement, that children are not capable of commiting sin? We do not believe that they commited some sin and then saved from it, we believe that they are not capable of commiting sin in the first place, like Mormon clearly says. Forget about the law and Justice, unless you think Christ did not satisfy the demands of justice. Christ fully satisfies the law for children, there is no mark left over, there is no smudge where there was a sin errased from the books, it is clear, white as snow, no evidence for anything related to sin in the spirit of children before the age of accountability.
Repentance, Forgiveness and Mercy vs Karma
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
It was in response to Travelers question or statement; "Has he, like the prodigal son returned to the Father not so much thinking to inherit everything but willing to do whatever the Father asks so that he can be with him?"
Since we were talking about the Savior, then I guess I was only refering to those that will be "one" with God as Christ is "one" with Him, all those that are "willing to do whatever the Father asks so that (they) can be with Him".
To be with God requires the ability to be in that state of glory. To be in that state of glory requires having all that God has. I don't think they can be separated. The prodigal son could not have all his father had without being there. He couldn't do it traveling off to a far away land. He had to be with him.
The specifics of what it means to "be" with God, I cannot answer. I kind of doubt it is a physical thing but more of a connectiveness as if the two are experiencing similar things or aware of what the other is experiencing, however that is done, through physical location or some other means I don't know. But I think we can call all that simply as "being one with Him".