Seminarysnoozer

I wasn't trying to say that everything is inherited. I was trying to point out the opposite, that not everything is earned in an equal manner for everyone. I agree that learning will continue in the next life but I disagree with an idea that we will have to prove ourselves again in other trials outside this probationary state. I think if we are judged at the final judgment to be on the track to Godhood, then that will be it. There will be no possibility for a straying path from that point on. If the atonement truly is 'eternal' in its scope then if we take advantage of it here then there should be no reason to have to earn that kind of saving again or experience another fall. The reason that experiences here will be to anybody's advantage would really only be the case if there are no other chances for these 'experiences'. I think that idea supports the fact that we won't have these kinds of experiences after passing through this state. The scripture of much is given, much is required also supports the idea that various things are required for various situations but could result in the same reward. Jesus was assigned the role of Savior. I am assigned the role of listening to Jesus and following Him. Same reward in the end, if I meet my end of this arrangement, which is to be one with God as He is one with God and to have the same glory with God as He has with God. ... that at least was Jesus' wish and therefore makes it possible. Can you please show me where you have found additional information about there being other probationary periods outside of this one (and outside of completing this one, i.e.- spirit world).

I knew you were going to say that from previous posts. One further question then, how does this apply to women? In most things we are taught in the gospel, we will be judged by the desire of our hearts. We should be willing to sacrifice all we have, in essence, lay down our lives. Even we are not asked to do particular things in this life, God will know what we are willing to do and it will count the same if there was not opportunity. From that, it is my belief that we do not have to actually experience all things to know all and yet have the same glory as if it was. We can say that is the case, for example, with those that are born with Down's Syndrome, etc. From your Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle's quote, I would say you haven't eliminated the possibility that becoming "one" with Christ, for those in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom does not include all the priesthood power and eventual keys of a Savior. One of the eternal principles of this gospel that I see is the sharing of glory, sometimes referred to as inheritance. We don't have to 'make' our own inheritance, that would be a wage not inheritance.

Thanks for your responses. I am remaining open minded about this subject as much as I can with the limited information we have. I think Joseph Smith was wanting to give more information but because of both the persecutions and many members of the Church at that time being really new members and thinking about breaking away, he had to keep his message basic and almost repeat Bible phrases without explaining much further. Obviously, the Bible alone doesn't have all those explanations, Joseph Smith had to hold back giving everything. Donald Q. Cannon wrote; "some who heard the King Follett Discourse were converts who had just joined the Church and had been raised in religions where the ideas Joseph taught in the King Follett Discourse would have been considered 'horrid blasphemy.' For some time prior to the spring of 1844, some of these had been dissatisfied with conditions in Nauvoo, and Joseph's actions and personality, new doctrines, and general disenchantment were leading more and more Saints into dissension or apostasy" (BYU Studies, Vol. 18, No. 2, p.187). "They had arrived in Nauvoo knowing only the first principles, the Book of Mormon, and the gathering. They had no idea of the plurality of gods, plural marriage, temple ordinances, and other "mysteries", which were being taught at Nauvoo. This is understandable because Brigham Young had admonished the elders at October conference, 1841, 'on the importance of teaching abroad the first principles of the gospel, leaving the mysteries of the kingdom to be taught among the saints.'" .... If the Son does what the Father does then I can say that the Father did what the Son has done. (sorry about the weird semantics) Here is what the Son did, the atonement, playing with semantics 'at-one-ment'. I think Jesus summarized that well in His prayer in John 17; "21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." Through the atonement it is possible to be at 'one' with God and Jesus as they are one, by 'one' in the same way they are 'one'. If God, our Father passed through a similar experience and He being righteous was made one with His Savior and received His glory, then in essence He did it. The glory of the act of laying down His life and taking it back up again was given to Him, either by doing it Himself or by receiving that glory through His Savior, what is the difference? I think this was the decision of the 'first estate' to say that we are willing to lay down our lives, to die, knowing that we will take it up again. The second estate being becoming one with our Savior and receiving all that the Father has and all that the Son has. If the Father became one with His Savior and made perfect that way then he may not have been the one on the cross and therefore never had the scars on His body, but it was still done by Him in that He is now one with His Savior. If we really don't believe we can become one with Christ, what is the point of the gospel. I think this is the final message of Christ, his final prayer. The "Father" encompasses all the line upon line steps that got Him to that point including the atonement and the shared glory of laying down his life to take it up again.

He spoke in a grove west of the temple, I doubt there were 20,000 people there with the ability to listen to him without microphones and audio equipment. 20,000 would fill an average sized modern stadium. Several sources say that there were "several thousand". If it is your hope to have a Kingdom then you would believe that it is possible and yet you are not the Savior of this world. Therefore, you do believe it is possible that a non-Savior can become God the Father. Or, you, maybe, believe there is and will only be one God the Father ever (of course, for us there is only one) throughout all existences. If one believes that, then they would also have to disbelieve the idea that we are truly spirit children of the Father. They would have to believe that we are simply given that title of "children" by adoption or some other means, without the full potential to be like Him.

One thing I don't understand about Skousen's view of "intelligences" is understanding why God would form spirit bodies in the first place. If all the universe contained obedient intelligences, why would God want to take some of those and form them into spirit bodies of which some would later rebel and be disobedient. By that act then, He would be creating disobedience, that doesn't make sense to me. Skousen is saying that the most nobel and valiant intelligences were formed into spirit bodies and then goes on to say that all the "lesser" ones are perfectly obedient, that they honor God 100%. That seems backwards to me. If all of these individual intelligences obey God willingly then what more is there to achieve out of them, that sounds like what all of us are trying to achieve now. Forget the probationary, test period, they already 100% honor and obey God, and according to Skousen continue to honor and obey Him 100% of the time even in the fallen state. If those other intelligences are that good, then why would God alter any of them to form spirit bodies? That really does not make sense. The only way around that is to say, well those other intelligences are "lesser" because they really can't reason and think for themselves. But, if one says that, then they can't "honor" God willingly either and there goes Skousen's whole theory. They either obey God in a robotic, scientific way because that is what they do, or they do it because they can think and know who and what to honor, knowing good from bad and understanding who honors the Priesthood and who doesn't etc. If it is the later, then they are not really "lesser" intelligences, they understand and willingly obey, that makes them better than any of us who got spirit bodies.

As much as you think it might have, those quotes do not respond directly to my question I had for you which is; "Or are you trying to say that only the Savior has a chance to really be like the Father?" Those passages say that the Father lay down his life, like all of us will, I will lay down my life, you will lay down your life, everyone will. It is to say that we all have to pass through a probationary period where our life is not permanent. That we will have to lay down our lives and then take them back again. I think you are reading to much into that discussion to say that the Father was a Savior previously in the same way that Jesus the Christ is our Savior. The King Follett discourse is given to a crowd that dose not believe in the pre-existence for the most part and has a misconception of the eternal nature of our spirits. As far as the Revelations scripture, yes! We are all supposed to overcome our carnal states by upholding the gospel that Jesus gives us. If we are obedient we can all overcome, again that does not specify the role of leadership in overcoming or how it was done, whether through a Savior of His own or by Himself. "Throne" is metaphorical, of course.

So, we will be wearing our righteousness and valor on our "sleeve" so-to-speak in the next life, that doesn't seem right to me. I don't think there will be any need to physically distinguish Himself from anyone, we will all know who He is. Here, people don't know him and couldn't distinguish or recognize Him but after, everyone will.

I disagree with the idea of "markings" remaining permanent but agree with there not being any proof of that, at least that I know of. I believe that resurrection is a perfect restoration of the body to it's original creation, Adam and Eve, it being the only perfect creation we know about. After the fall of Adam, there were changes to the body. We don't know for sure but there could have been many differences made to make a 'probationary state' body that would include making giving birth painful etc. If those features are taken away that may change several things about the way we currently look. Also the resurrected body will be made out of different material, perfected material that could greatly change our exact appearance, we will be in the same 'image' but that is all we know. If they remain on His body, they are only for specific purposes pertaining to this round and when fulfilled would likely be done away with. I, for one, would be greatly surprised if the Father had similar markings. Statistically speaking there is a low chance that He was the Savior of His world out of all those that received Celestial Glory of the highest degree. How many individuals will make it to that level? 100, 1,000 or 100,000? Whatever the number it probably would make it less than 1% chance that He was the Savior of that world. Or are you trying to say that only the Savior has a chance to really be like the Father?

I agree with what everyone has said so far, great comments. I think one think that helped me understand this concept a lot better was when I had a family of my own. Whenever my children do well in school or I get to participate in one of their achievements I see the joy it brings them and myself. That only comes when there is such a strong loving tie to each other like that which comes with family. This is why we use words like "heir", "Kings and Queens", "Father in Heaven", "Brother and Sister", etc. One of the key factors for God's eternal progression is His charitable tie with each of His children. I think of what I would do for my children to help them succeed and how I get to share in their success, what a joy that is to me. That kind of joy can be ours forever if we learn how to find happiness in the success of others. Being Christlike teaches one that charitable trait of pure love. With pure love, then every success we have our Father delights in. We can have that ability too in the next life if we start to learn it here, that is what is meant by being 'Kings and Queens', to have 'posterity-like' connections with others and their success.

I think your perception of the war in Heaven is skewed by what we see here when we talk about rebellion. I don't think there was any deception going on in the war in Heaven. I think we were all very well informed, as much as we could be without having experience but definitely better informed than we are now ... because here we have to live by faith. Even if they were "scared silly" then that is not a characteristic consistent with being like our Father in Heaven (which is different than being scared silly in this veil covered fallen state, here). If they were that informed, a hundred times or a thousand times etc. more informed than we are now then they did it because they wanted to and we did it because we wanted to. I don't think there is any question about that. If you think some got tricked or did it for uninformed reasons, then I think we would call those people simply 'dumb'. But that 'dumb' person is many many times more intelligent than the smartest man in a fallen state. I think the bottom line choice that was made in the war in Heaven is that we essentially were told that if we wanted to be like our Father in Heaven then we would have to have complete devotion and obedience to His word and forget about oneself. I think the majority of us were somewhat valiant already so it was kind of like more of the same. Then there were others who thought that now they have learned so much that maybe they could do it on their own, they could figure it out on their own. They never had it in them to give themselves up in the first place, so they went with Satan. The rest of us have a chance to figure out how to do that, maybe with a little refinement through life's lessons first, but we have the chance to gain the attitude of completely giving up our pride driven self centered desires that comes with a little bit of knowledge and little bit of freedom. If we prove we can keep our eye single to His glory then we have what it takes to be like Him. Those 1/3 already didn't have that mindset. They didn't miss out on anything they could have done. Whereas everyone here, even Cain, had that potential but when the stakes are higher they may fold. To be self-centered is miserable because it is limiting. Revealing how much they are really able to give of themselves to the process. When Cain was tested in a "double blinded study" so-to-speak, he revealed his love of things that are self-centered acts over giving acts. He chose misery over happiness. The reason God's glory is eternally increasing is because He is charitable and finds pleasure in the success of others, that is the core trait of Eternal Happiness. Starting with the war in Heaven we all choose where we are the most comfortable in terms of how much we are really willing to give of ourselves.

Does that map correspond with the journey from baptism to receiving the higher law, the gift of the holy ghost? For a lot of us in the church, that is a really short journey from the baptismal font to the relief society room. Most of their exchange was their unwillingness to accept the higher law and the higher priesthood, which we have in our day. So, what journey are you talking about? I think the way to deal with the "anti-Christ" is to accept Christ and not hold onto the lesser laws that have been fulfilled and we have moved on from.

We can't hold onto the rod with secular knowledge it is a spiritual hold. If one has to pray to figure out where they are on the map and guidance then they have not been exposed to the fullness of the gospel yet. I am just talking about those that have the fullness of the gospel. All that we need has been presented to us, and if we need more we have a living prophet for that. Don't get me wrong, I believe in prayerful study and expanding one's talents in all areas and strengthening the ones we already have. But to know additional details beyond what has been outlined in multiple scripture study aids etc. is not a guidance, map orienting piece of information. It is, at best, a testimony strengthener but it also has the risk of leading people down various pathways. People (not you), on these forums even, have presented material that they claim only they have discovered by their intense study and they think the authorities of the church won't listen to them and so they don't want to have anything to do with the church anymore. Again, I am not saying it cannot be helpful but that it is not necessary to even know where one is on the map.

This is a side-note, off topic, sorry. I think I've heard somewhere that what makes our spirits different than others is the ability to reason. I don't think all intelligences are of the same "species", whatever that is in spirit terms. It seems, also, that whatever the intelligence is when it is formed is a permanent state. In other words, species X intelligence cannot become species Y intelligence. A non-child of God spirit can't become a child of God. I think we had to start out that way. I know, that confuses people because some state that we have been around forever. I don't know, though, that we have been around forever as children of God. Then there are only a few options; 1) either we were not beings before, we just existed forever as spiritual matter called intelligence .... or 2) we always were formed as an individual being and somehow became adopted or part of the fold of the children of God (which to me lessens the idea that we are actually children of God) and makes me wonder why He chose beings to become part of His fold that He would know later would be cast out .... or 3) we were always separate beings but advanced over time until we became similar to God's spirit and could reason - like you said is possible (I don't think that is possible). I tend to think of it as the first option, that we are literal children, offspring, procreated beings of God. I think that is traditional thought, from my experience. Yes, the matter that made up the being has been around forever and cannot be made or destroyed but I believe the moment I became my self was the moment God procreated my spirit, not before. I don't think a spirit can be "damned" if it never had the option to become like God or have endless glory in the first place, which would preclude them from your idea of all non-human spirits being damned, if they never had that potential as spirits. But, more likely they are not damned in that they may also participate in spiritual procreation after their kind, continuing their Glory.

That last sentence reveals why people take that stance about learning the detailed facts of the gospel more than the "spirit" of the lessons. Somehow, there is this perception that if we don't get all the details here that we will have to learn them in the next life. That, I don't think, is true. How many years and eons did we spend in study as spirits before coming here? Don't you think we learned all the truths before we came here and all that will be restored back to us when we die? The thing that we learn in this life is experience and how to overcome carnal influences to listen to the spirit, the truth that we already learned. That is all we have to learn. The main purpose of this life is to receive a body so that we can be tested and reveal the true desires of our heart, not the desires of a "logical mind". Yes, there are things people can learn during a test, but the main purpose of a test is to be tested on things you already know. The "facts" will be returned after we come out of this fallen state of forgetfulness. What aspect of gospel truth did you not learn in the pre-Earthly life before you signed up for it? Was there something withheld about what we are doing here and the purpose of this life? I don't think so. This is why Daniel learned faster than others. It is inside of all of us, we just have to be in tune to that influence to understand the truth without having to know all the historical facts surrounding gospel principles. It is a process of remembering what we already know. It is not a process of "find out even more". The historical context is just the fluff that carries a risk of obscuring the simple truths.

I think He paid an equal amount which results in a 1 to 1 trade. The form it which it was paid is hard to comprehend. It is partially represented in physical or even mental discomfort but obviously not wholly represented by that. Some people don't endure any pain at all from their sins. They simply don't care to repent where a lot of pain from sins comes from, it comes out in that process. So, if they are not repentant they may not experience all pain from their sins. I agree with it being an ordinance that requires specific keys and anointed powers.

I think you are saying this too strongly. It is not necessary to have traversed every wandering pathway and visit the spacious building and consult with those that are taking those paths to know what the straight and narrow is. All I have to do in this life is hold onto the iron rod. Even Lehi in his dream did not go on an expedition down all the wandering pathways to gather up all the people that got lost in the mist. He just beckoned from the Tree of Life, in that spot. In the dream, it is implied that he doesn't even know where all those pathways lead. It is not "necessary" to understand all Jewish laws or have some kind of advanced education in the OT to understand the gospel of Christ. I can see how understanding the OT better is helpful, I am not saying to not do that if one has the opportunity but it isn't necessary to "understand the prophecies, admonishments, lessons, and so on that Christ uses in the New Testament". There are many aids in doing that such as other publications from the church if we need to try to better understand those things. If we learn by the spirit, that is better than knowing about all 613 laws.

They were created spiritually but by beings that had physical characteristics. That, in fact, might be the key to "creation" or at least procreation. I don't think we believe that procreation exists in the spirit alone form.

If gender is based on societal norms for each sex, then how does that apply to the pre-Earthly life? Then how can there be gender without having two "sexes"? And if there are two "sexes" their must be sex. Right? Otherwise that definition can't apply to pre-earthly life.

I agree with a lot of that. I have a hard time understanding how "lesser" intelligences are 100% obedient and the "higher" intelligences are the ones that sometimes don't obey. I think what throws the conversation off is the word "intelligences" itself because that seems to imply that "intelligences" are intelligent, that they can think for themselves which really isn't how that word is used in that context. In that context of "intelligence" being in every matter of the universe we are just talking about the associated spirit matter connected to that physical matter, not a separately thinking and acting being as low as it may be. If so called lesser intelligences have enough power in themselves to move the matter they are attached to and alter it like turning water into wine then they would have to be individual thinkers. Individual thinkers that are 100% obedient, in my mind, should be called "higher" intelligences then. Now if they aren't really "thinkers" then they also can't give "allegiance" to one being and not another, I choose to obey this person but not this one. I think that is different than saying God has authority, "honor" to work spirit matter as He sees necessary. This seems backwards that a "lesser" intelligence that has 100% allegiance to God by choice and by obedience could be stuck in a rock miles below the Earth's surface without a chance to act on it's own and increase it's glory through free agency. Unless, this is our destiny as sometimes disobedient "intelligences", if we become 100% obedient we can be attached to a rock in God's universe somewhere. That sounds a lot like some Eastern Religions.

Yes, this is why I think if we liken it to the 18 year old deciding to leave the house and all the comforts from Mom and Dad's home, this is similar to the decision made. I think the deception though is that Lucifer made Eve think she was going to be instantly knowledgeable about everything like the Gods. Of course, a lot of that knowledge of good and evil is through experience which cannot be instantaneously had through a fruit. Then, they realize the true price to pay for the privilege of experience, free agency and accountability. .... just like the 18 year old realizing the true cost of living once they are out on their own because they never had to face those challenges before. But, in this case, by choosing to "be on their own" then they have to be cut off from being immortal. That makes sense to me. It is by their choice and a necessary requirement of that choice that they were cut off and made to die, not a punishment.

People tend to identify themselves according to temporary traits, earthly traits. Remembering who we really are and what we can become is a big struggle and definitely part of the gospel. I think many in this world get so wrapped up in these temporary traits that the true purpose and test in this life gets obscured. Sexual attraction is just one example as the attraction part, at least in the beginning for most in this world is based on physical characteristics. It can easily pull people away from the iron rod. There are many other examples of physical traits and talents from which people center their lives around that becomes who they think they are when it most likely is just a borrowed talent or trait H.F. has given for this probationary, test period. i.e. - musicians, professional athletes, professors, intellectuals, born leaders, the "sick-role" etc. etc. These talents or set of challenges are useful when taken with humility and in the right light and used to build the Kingdom of God on Earth but can be a source of the wandering pathways as in Lehi's dream. It is just easier to talk about sexual attraction in this type of discussion because it tends to affect pretty much everyone. If I would have started out with "musical talent" instead of "sexual attraction" I probably would have gotten more of a heated argument back but even fewer responders. ... maybe not.

I tend to think it is from creation and the fall. Without the fall of Adam and Eve it wasn't there either (as far as we know). I really doubt people in the Terrestrial kingdom will have it and yet they will be happy, it is a Kingdom of Glory. Just like we will hunger and thirst no more, I think many bodily passions will not pull us in one direction or another after resurrection. In other words, I doubt there will be any "urges" of any kind.

I think this is actually, in a strange way, the purpose of this question. You are seemingly trying to equate this with desires of the heart. But by doing so then you are saying that this is a trait that is generated by the spirit. If it is a trait generated by the body then the question is not "is sex a righteous desire" but "is it a righteous desire to keep sex confined to the laws of chastity and the uses outlined by the gospel?" If we thought sex and sexual attraction was driven by spiritual traits then one could ask a question about righteous desires in that way. Is it a righteous desire to control physical passions of all kind? Yes! To have them and control them are two different questions. This question is kind of like asking; "Is it a righteous desire to be hungry on fast Sunday?" If one is hungry on Fast Sunday, I don't think they can control that aspect of their situation, they can only control what they do about the hunger. Likewise, I think sexual desire is either there or it's not. We can make it tougher for ourselves though, like when someone accidentally brings treats on Fast Sunday. We do things to not make the challenge tougher for ourselves. If a person exposes themselves to things that bring out sexual passions that would go against the laws and commandments then that reveals their unrighteous desire of the heart to not want to follow those laws.

Interestingly though, to be like our Father, we get access to this body but should lay no claim on it and be willing to give it up for righteousness sake. It's like we are taking out the Benz from the car lot only for a test drive but we can't afford it yet. We have to bring it back without any damage or too many miles on it.

I believe it is because Satan has been given power over things of this world, carnal things. I don't know if it is so much they crave after it as this is the only affect they have available to them for the moment. It is the only "button" they can push so to speak, to try to disrupt the plan. It's like they are saying, while if I can't mess around with this guy, at least let me mess around with those bodies. I think, they think it is "possession" when in reality it is just dominion, and only a temporary dominion. Also, that is their expression after they experienced some of that control with the "possession" so we don't know if that is an innate desire of spirits. I think those devil spirits already made a statement in the pre-earthly counsel that they do not want to be like our God, body and spirit together. At least, they thought the risk was too high to take, it wasn't worth it in their eyes.