cougarfan

Interesting come back. Attack the messenger, label him an apostate and homosexual and then you don't have to process the information. I didn't realize gay people were unreliable. Quinn was ex'ed because he didn't show up for his "court of love." Elder Packer (as you may recall) had already directed the Stake Prez to ex him (Elder Oaks let slip that little bit of info).... the verdict was decided beforehand. So, I guess now Thews can give you the same information from sources other than Quinn.

I read a quote recently where Joseph Smith said he agreed with Swedenborg. He seems to have been aware of his writings. I'll go back and see if I can find it.

Practically every faith promoting story I have ever bothered to look in to has ended up disappointing me. There is usually a little bit of historical truth and a lot of exaggeration from people living many years after the event. I'm not surprised this Martin's Cove story doesn't check out.

Amen brother. But didn't you find the 12% comment a little bit amusing? It kind of got the debate focused. I'm in total agreement with you BTW. And the lady I knew who paid 20% and fasted every Sunday was a spiritual giant. But she was also a bit of a nutjob IMO.

I think there is a whole ton of unnecessary guilt that is placed on people over tithing. Another point I think should be thrown in is the Malachi quote: "Will a man rob God?" If you go back to the beginning of the book and read it in CONTEXT it is an indictment of the way the priests were handling the tithes brought in. That scripture should not be used to lay guilt on members. It is an indictment of the Jewish priests/leaders more than anything else.

Sorry if I sounded snippy. I don't mean to be that way. I love all of you. I was just putting up a quick reply. I am not being critical of ANY of you. I mean that sincerely.

Actually when you first join you give everything, then after that the 10% increase kicks in. Go back and carefully read the D&C section everyone relies on for the 10% of your increase or interest (Section 42? 58? can't remember the exact number... I don't have my scriptures with me). My point is that Tithing=Law of Consecration. That is what they called it back then in Joseph Smith's era. Tithing WAS the law of consecration. Nothing has changed in the scriptures. We just don't live it anymore, hence all this talk about 10% of gross/net is irrelevant. We are not living the law anyway.

Can it be legitimate scripture and NOT be historical at the same time? Parley P. Pratt seemed to think that it was either a fraud or a legitimate record. President Hinckley and Elder Oaks seem to say the same thing. Barter Town makes very reasonable arguments and he keeps getting brushed off. Don't you think this either/or approach is damaging to testimonies? You are forced to either give up on Mormonism altogether or believe in something in which the preponderance of evidence disproves it.

Read the Old Testament. There were tithes on tithes. It could add up to 20-30%.

I don't think tithing was ever defined as 10%. In the old testament it is 1/10 of certain produce and such. And then there is a tithe of a tithe and so forth if you read Levitcus and other OT books. If you didn't grow crops you didn't pay any tithing. To think that it was a blanket 1/10 of everything is not scriptural. In modern times the D&C says that tithing is giving all at first (like consecration) and then "AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN TITHED" it is 1/10 of your increase. The scripture hasn't changed, we are just not living it any more.

Well the D&C says "he that is tithed shall not burn." My seminary teacher used to explain it as like buying fire insurance. I thought obedience was following our leaders and the scriptures. If I just continue to give 12% of my gross to the church, I should expect a blessing in return, the D&C also says there is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven upon with all blessings our predicated, i.e, obedience to the law that gives the blessings. Hence, pay tithing, don't burn. Pay tithing, windows of heaven open.

But if the prophet commands it, you will get on board right?

yes these are all good answers...until the Prophet tells me pay it on my net, I'll keep paying it on my gross plus a little more...it is just like buying a good fire insurance policy in that respect.

I think it is confusing too...but yes it was commanded (D&C 132). Yes it was stopped because of the laws of the land (see manifesto). I think that since it is a higher law some people in the church kept practicing it in secret even after it was outlawed. Also, in church growing, up I was always told that it is practiced in the hereafter in the celestial kingdom (heaven). And when your first wife dies, I've been told you can marry another in the temple and be sealed so it is still practiced in that respect.

I think church dances are fine, but we just need to be careful. I've heard some pretty raunchy lyrics at church dances. The Osmonds are great but they get carried away at times. Don't you think? And Marie's daughter, I'm just not sure what to think about the cause of all that. The brethren have said for years these things are a lifestyle choice and not anything genetic.

Well I would think Muslim converts should be able to continue to practice polygamy just as the Manifesto says. It was only stopped because as a church we had no choice. But we still have section 132 of the D&C which sanctions polygamy. I don't think that has ever been taken out of our scriptures. And if they allow marriage between two men or two women, then the next step in the slippery slope is a man and 2 women or something else. So polygamy will come back. Maybe that is the Lord's plan. His ways are not our ways.

My Stake President gave a talk from the pulpit and said it was 10% of gross income. He made it very clear. So I try and pay at least that, sometimes more as a fire insurance policy. I wonder if he should have been speaking like that from the pulpit or maybe it was o.k. I guess he was just following the spirit.

The Osmonds are awesome, but sometimes I think they are a little too worldly in their music. Look at Marie, her daughter is now a Lesbian. Something is just wrong with that family for all the good that they have done. Just my two cents brothers and sisters.

Why yes I do!

Well, I don't think people would have a problem figuring out my family is LDS. We have pictures of the first presidency prominently diplayed in our entry way as well as the Proclamation on the Family. On the ceiling it says "families can be together forever." We also have pictures of various temples in almost every room of our house and pictures of Joseph Smith. I try to only have LDS reading material on our coffee table. Usually the last 3 issues of the Ensign are right there too.

Yes that would be a huge problem. And also we would have to go back to polygamy and I don't think the brethren want that because we are not righteous enough to live that law like in the early years of the church.

No problem! Sounds like you are in tune with the Lord. It is a personal thing and it doesn't do any good to split hairs over it.

Some of the best saints have come out of Denmark. Nice place to go on a mission.

Wow, Sue you are awesome!!! I'm sure you are blessed many times over for your faithfulness. I'm sure paying on your gross receipts amounts to a ton of money. Those funds do a lot of good for sure.

Yes that is true. But it would be sad to be kept out of heaven for only paying 9%. Or overlooking something that we should have paid tithing on. That's all I'm saying.