dash77

I have honestly heard of women who have larger breasts purposely puchasing overly large garment tops so they can show cleavage. Obviously, this goes against the modestly standards, but I am curious if others have heard or witnessed anything like this?

I believe the pat-downs are based on a pure radon sampling strategy – regardless of how a person is dressed – which would explain why the almost nude women in the airport was searched. However, I also believe airport security has the discretion to search whoever they think is acting differently or suspicion. This is where abuse would come into play and I have witnessed some myself first-hand. On this issue – and other ones including simple community issues like roads getting plowed after a snow storms, I find the American people quite fickle. On the one hand they want top notch security and services. Yet most American will not pay the needed taxes for top notch services and when new strategies come about (e.g., body scanners, pat-downs) they then complain. Yet, if a plane gets bombed, they will then point the finger and blame the lack of government strategy. Yet, again, when government tries new strategies, people complain there is poor thinking. Either way, government decisions are to blame for anything bad that happens. The government can’t win. I might be wrong, but I believe Israel has one of the best systems of airline security and has low terrorist attack (in airplanes) and has a reason belief that terrorist want to blow up their airplanes. I have had a few Israel co-workers tell me every single passenger is body scanned and pat-downed. My understand is you have to arrive at the airlines a lot earlier and there are extra inconvenience but the trade-off is high safety. I have no personal problems with extra inconvenience and with strategy such as pat-downs or body scanners – I prefer safety over inconvenience.

I’ll be the first to support the notion that too many policy officers can be power driven – likewise for airport security. I would also like to note that I realize pat-downs can be different experiences for different people and there are gender issues. From a personal perspective, however, I would have no problems going through scanners or being pat-down in any body area because I prefer the knowledge that we are safer on airplanes. There really are suicide bombers and I would rather be pat-down thatn blown up.

Tarnished: Agreed!!! We could both just go on and on and on. I prefer we simply agree to disagree.

Tarnished: I’m guessing it might be time for both of us to simply agree to disagree. This thread could just keep going on and on. With that said, let me add that the article you provided is a research article submitted by a researcher. It is not a policy statement from the organization. The ban on UF and boxing is an actual policy statement made by the upper administration of the AMA (usually the best and brightest). The article you are submitting is a single research study and although it has some merit – it is not an actual policy statement calling for a ban. There is a big difference. Can we agree to disagree?

Funky town: Either you are misinterpreting the context of my last thread (as you did with Paul Dunn’s article) or you are trying to be cute by using parallelism in a completely dysfunctional manner. Throughout this thread I have used the American Medical Association and eleven other medical authorities to outline that (1) UF and boxing should be banned, and (2) the difference between a blood sport and contact sport. Locating twelve differing sources (and others in this thread) does not suggest narrowness, if anything it suggest broad-mindedness. And because these highly respected medical organizations have outlined the unique and dangerous aspects of these two blood sports, then as LDS I think we should not support them. I did not always beleive this -- but what I try to do is learn more about a subject area and then try to align my behaviors to it -- the best that I can, knowing that I am a sinner like everyone else. I do not mean to condemn, I just have not found a compelling reason to not think these are blood sports.

Funky Town: You are making what is known as the wishful thinking fallacy – which is making the faulty assumption that because we wish X were true (or false), that X (Paul Dunn’s article) is indeed true (not false). If you read the article Paul Dunn clearly writes about the purpose, which is to use” . . . the vocabulary of the athlete to urge his listeners to apply the gospel into their lives and particularly to show them the importance of self-discipline and self-denial.” You are completely using this article outside of its intended purpose or context. Paul or Paul Dunn is not supporting certain feats he is using them for the symbolic language of discipline toward gospel rules. The thing I worry about in your reply is that you are trying to use scriptures/modern day counsel to serve your person view (which might be associated with the natural man), rather than using scriptures and information to make a decision regarding how to follow gospel principles and act as Christ would want you to act. Part of being a Latter-Day Saint is to put off our natural tendencies and let gospel principles guide our behaviors.

Tarnished: The reply you are replying too was directed at Anatess and I was simply paralleling a reply to outline the craziness of it. I can see it work with you —because you have outlined the craziness of my post. Tarnished, I have always appreciated your thoughts on this subject and others because of what you have outlined – you work through the process. I think I have been reciprocal – I have asked you to send me additional information – such as when you suggested that BYU was supporting UF and boxing (which they have not). And I did change my mind on how UF and boxing can be helpful to learn for self-defense – I just do not see how self-defense is enhanced by attending these events. I think you can still learn enough self-defense by sparring with others and do not need to watch fights to learn more about self defense. I am glad you have done your homework and found information like split votes. However, there will always be dissenters when policy statements are created by credible organizations, like the American Medical Association (an organization we love when we have serious illness, like cancer, but one we dislike and think is a fraud when their positions does not align to ours). It still stands, these 12 medical/health organizations have called for a ban on boxing and UF because it is a blood sport.

Yes, yes, now that we have two newspaper articles it becomes credible. The famous philosopher Fredrich Nietzsche once stated that if you want to create chaos in society, just give people a little bit of information or education. I am just amazed at how this discussion is going with accusations and so forth based on two newspaper articles. There are those who are attacking this Presbyterian church and other attacks members of the church. Just because the pastor is quoted as saying something does not mean other things were not stated. We do not even know the context of the pastors words. You might want to simple learn more about the situation before making judgments in every which way. Who knows what is going on and despite Margin of Errors’s second newspaper article, I am sure there is much more information than the report of one or two newspapers. I think newspaper are good for general information – such as knowing if the war in Iraqi is still continuing – but using articles like these for such discussions seems to create disdain between religious groups.

Anatess: I guess I could flip your last post around. Here it goes: Anatess... HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ME TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY WHEN YOU DON'T BOTHER TO READ ANYTHING I SAY? Especially when you make SWEEPING generalizations that are OFFENSIVE. I have told you MANY TIMES BEFORE... the American medical Association and eleven other medical authorities have called for a ban against boxing and UF fighting.

The point I am raising is if we can trust a newspaper article as a reliable source for information. My answer is no. There an many good books written on the topic of media literacy -- but one of my favorites is by Dr. W. James Potter called "media literacy" he has a great chapter in how media like to sensationalize stories to get people worked up or to create fear -- so they can build profit (people who are worked up or are fearful will usually keep returning to the news source to either argue the case or gain information to protect their fears -- when there are more customers newspapers can increase advertising). My point is that I do not think a news paper article is a good source to make such a decision or to create opinions. Journalists pick their information and usually exclude other aspects of information to create a story to sell.

I’m not sure if they were in there right to do this or not. I do not know enough about the situation to make such a judgment – maybe margin of error has some type of inside skinny of what was going on. In my mind, I would need to learn more about the Presbyterian churches bylaws and policies. In the LDS church, we do not forbid a person who volunteers simply do to another religious affiliation. However, there are rules of conduct (policy) and if they are broken or could be broken then changes are made (be it a member or non-member). I once lived in a ward where a non-member was the scout leader and he seemed like a really great and caring guy. In regard to two-deep leadership whether you are a member or not this is a policy and if a leader consistently breaks this policy then they should be removed from their calling or volunteer service. I would have to learn more about the situation to be able to make a fair-minded observation. Perhaps these LDS leaders were breaking the other church policy and were conducting missionary work in the walls of this other church. Maybe these two leaders were dismissed simply because they were Mormon and were discriminated against. Maybe this church has a real policy that Christians need to be leaders and honestly believe that Mormons are not Christians. Who knows – but I think people should be more fair-minded and investigate the issue more so before make explicitly judgments.

I just see alot of self-referecing from those who support boxing and UF fighting. Smokers can tell you alll sorts of benefits of smoking (e.g., relaxation) -- yet the AMA and the American Cancer Assocation have outline postion statemnts why it should be banned in public settings. The health/medical authority begins and ends within their own minds. Again, I have marshaled a dozen credible health/medical organizations who want to ban both sports that make a distiction between a contacrt sport and a blood sport. Until someone can show be a credible independent medical/health authrity that states otherwise, my postion is that these blood sports should be banned and they support those people who like violence.

You may want to read the book “Flesh wounds: The culture of cosmetic surgery” by Dr. Virginia Blum. She combines qualitative research, popular culture and advertisement analysis, and her own personal experiences with cosmtic surgery to outline how manipulative plastic surgeons can be in order to make huge amounts of profit on people vulnerabilities. A very educational book; a must read for anyone thinking about anytime of cosmetic surgery.

Tarnished: Yes, the last sentence of my post is unclear. I was tired before I wrote it and did not proof read it. What I was trying to communicate is that I do not trust information that is based on what another person tells someone. I have heard many stories in which, someone, references a friend of a friend, who know someone who had some type of experience that validates the original speaker. Meaning, I do not trust the information that you provided. Just because there is a martial arts class at BYU does not mean BYU supports UF fighting or boxing. This is an extremely far stretch. I might be wrong but I do not think BYU officially recognizes UF fighting or boxing. There might be some instructor who spends a day talking about these subjects (either for or against it), there might be a former student who participates in it, and there might be part of a class where people try some holds on others – but this is not an official endorsement, like you see with the BYU football team.

Krp5: I looked at the back tag of what I am calling the “under-armor garment type” and John is correct, it’s a 79% polyester and 21% spandex. I do not find them as comfortable as under-armor – but I have found the support to be much better than other garments and they do wick away sweat – so they are great for support in hot environments. I really like them – but they fit fairly tight, just like under-armor. However, the advantage can sometimes simultaneously create problems. For example, this garment type is better than any other in keeping a certain body part pointed downward when untimely erections occur in everyday life, but if nature beats out human design, it can get stuck sideways or upward afterwards, which then needs adjustment, usually quickly!!! . But for just everyday normal body movement – assuming that is your adjustment problem – I think they are the best.

Tarnished: You need to provide me some more informtation regarding this class. Please provide some sort of link so I can understand it better. I have always not trusted someone who tells someone, who tells some, something.

Loud Mouth: I can see where you are coming from. I can understand the person who is involved in boxing or UF fighting to learn self-defense skills and connect it to self-reliance in protecting a family or oneself. In fact, I thought about taking boxing classes so I could learn how to throw a really good right in order to knock someone out (prior to joining the church I work as a bouncer in a bar and was in my fair share of fights – I always wanted to be able to throw a really good right that could knock a person out). If I take boxing, it would be to learn self-defense so I could learn how to throw a really good right and to get in better shape. However, I think I would learn enough skills from the training that I could protect myself – I do not think I would actually have to fight others boxer to develop better self-defense skills. In my mind, just knowing the skills is enough, if I am ever called on to protect myself. I might be wrong. But I can see how knowing one has self-defense skills can be edifying and linked to self-reliance. I can agree on that. And I agree with you that we have been told over and over again to not support or participate in violent entertainment. I think the most of the millions of people who follow UF and boxing are motivate d by the violence – they are not there to learn skills. My worry is that I think there are many people who make the public claim to watch or be involved in boxing/UF as development of self-defense, but there private self enjoys watching violence. Perhaps I am wrong – only the Lord know our true motivation – but we are to turn off the natural man, not use cosmetic rationalize to satisfy violence. That is my worry – but may people like Faded and Tarnished are truly these unique people who can differentiate and watch UF just for technique and self defense education. Do I make sense? Faded: We just have a fundamental difference regarding the difference of contact sport and a blood sport. I have marshaled twelve medical associations regarding the difference (boxing/UF purposefully try to hurt/bleed vital human organs and contact sports have rules against it) and you have referenced yourself as an authority on this subject. In my mind, this is why BYU allows football and does not have a boxing or UF fighting team – football and rugby are contact sports. It is probable a mute point now because I (and 12 medical associations) see the difference and you do not. At this point, there is probable no reason to continue to converse and I would only be open to further discussion if you can reference a credible medical/health source to support argument, rather than self-reference. My understanding of agency is that the Lord through his Prophets outlines principles and then lets people govern themselves. Just because we have not heard specific mention of an activity does not mean it is or is not permitted – we make those decisions based on our honest understanding of them. I have never heard any General Authority state that it’s inappropriate to hit a person over the head with a hammer or 4x4 for fun – but I can extrapolate from gospel principles that this would go against LDS principles. Also, in regard to if I do not like it, do not watch it, I would outline that our individual actions actually affect others. Social movements and the acceptance of new social norms is based on a collection individuals. I have stopped watching boxing and UF matches – but even when I do this it still affects me and other people. The general increase in violence in society – which I am affected by – is due to numerous factors (e.g., more violence in Hollywood movies, etc.) – one of which is societal acceptance of UF. Instead of suggesting I not watch it (which I have done) , a better suggestion would be for you to think about how your individual actions affect others.

John: I think the type you are refering to is the under-armour type I have been suggesting. I think we are refering to the same type of garment. I like the support.

Loud mouth: I am sorry, I am not understanding. Please explain. I see the difference between being edified and entertained by violence a spliting hairs -- not much of a difference. How do you see it as different. And by the way, I love your name and icon on this website -- it always makes me smile!!!

So, why does the Proclamation to the World about the family refer to wholesome recreation?

One more thought/question. I have asked the question a couple of times related to if the Savior would endorse or think boxing and UF fighting to be OK – the watching of it. Thus far, only Faded has replied, and assuming I am understanding his reply, his answer is that because other sports create human injury and damage, thus its OK that UF and boxing does. Is this the only response there can be given? It ok because others sports are violent? Silence can speak volumes.

Krp5: I am referring to a new type of garment that was created maybe a year or so ago that is an under-armor type of garment. It fits a lot tighter and has provided me with much better support. Sometimes there might be some discomfort related to a certain body part stuck sideways instead of downward (assuming downward is normal – but who knows) – but I agree with John Doe, there are other ways to adjust yourself that can be helpful (e.g., certain leg movements). I am not sure if I agree with John on learning movements that can prevent problems – but there really are discreet ways to adjust. May I ask if you are a convert to the church? I am a little surprised that you were not aware of this type of garment. John: With my last sentence stated to Krp5, I am not sure I know what you mean by support type brief garments. Are too simply referring to brief style garment bottoms that are snugger?

Faded and others: We have a difference of opinion then. I see boxing and UF fighting as very different from football or baseball or other contact sports. I see the difference in the fact that although vital organs can get hurt in these sports there are penalties for aiming for these body parts – it is not part of the contact. In boxing and UF fighting the goal is to hit these body parts so that they bleed. That is the distinction between contact sports and a blood sport. Yes, I am singling out UF fighting and boxing as a distinct sport that is very different than contact sports and I have marshaled very respectable organizations that also make this distinction. I do not see the AMA as hypocrites – rather I see many (but not all) boxing and UF fighting advocates as people who have jaded violent tendencies that disguise them in the language of self education. Anatess and others have caused me to change my thoughts somewhat that I can clearly see how someone can learn these skills for self-defense purposes. But I think the majority of the fan base is based on natural-man tendencies of pleasure that come from violence. In regard to your question regarding the Saviors endorsement of sports, , I think a sport like soccer, baseball, or cricket would be endorsed by the Savior. I can outline many research studies that conclude that taking time out of a day for sport participation or sport watching improves health. The escapism watching a sport can create or the social aspects such as developing friendships are part of good mental health. I suspect this is why many of the General Authorities suggest getting involved in a hobby and why ward of recreation and social activities. Just like coin collecting can create friendships and respite from the stress of health – so can playing cricket or watching baseball. There are health textbooks that clearly underscore this. I think the Savior would endorse such healthy recreation activities and wholesome recreation is outlined in the Proclamation to the Family. The difference between these activates and UF fighting or boxing, again, is that there is not a purposeful attack n the vital organs of another child of God. Accidents happen and sometime a person may get upset and out of the rules (e.g., a helmet to helmet hit in football) – but these are not written into the policies/rules of the activity. The real world application of these other sports you have identified is good health, without the cost of hurting another person. Good health has been endorsed by the General Authorities. Running around the soccer field creates a healthier person. Anatess and others: Perhaps you have been to many of these UF fighting matches where you can’t recall a single person cheering for the violence. The three I have been too and the others I have watched on TV is the exact opposite. I witnessed first-hand an elbow to a nose that clearly broke it and the fans went wild. When I use to watch boxing this is what most fans wanted to see. I have a very difficult time thinking that fans do not cheer in the UF matches when another person gets knocked out – perhaps the places you have done too are just very unique. I agree with you completely on the sexual objectification of women in all sports, be it football of UF fighting ring walkers.