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Loudmouth: I agree with you that the LDS church has a history of violence and brutal persecution and it is a history that should never be forgotten. But sometimes I wonder if this history – coupled with fatalistic end of the world scenario – creates this intense fear aspect in members. I had a conversation the other day on the chat forum (this site) regarding handguns. The two other people who felt hand guns were needed were say things like in the last days or when the economy completely bottoms outwe will need guns to hunt for food or protect our food supplies. To me, the answer is faith in God, more so than guns. Although I deeply respect the thoughts of these other two people regarding guns, if the economy bottoms out, I think most animals will hunted within the first week and I believe we are to share our food supplies with others, not kill others to preserve our own children. I sometimes think that our history of having brutal things happen to Joseph Smith and the early pioneers color our modern day perceptions that the world is more brutal than it is – which then initials a fear to be ready to fight at any time – be it guns or with our own hands. I think Pam made a really wise point about self defense and I can see taking boxing classes for fitness and the ability to throw a punch in self defense. But I sometimes think our history makes some members just a little too fearful and that make people do strange things, like acceptance blood sports or become fascinated in violent sports (or have lax gun laws)

Anatess: Do you really think that there will come a time when you will have to defend your family and will have to physically fight. When I was young and was a real punk, I started a few fights. Over 20 years ago after I joined the church, I have never been in a situation where I had to fight. Do you relly think every man should learn how to fight because every man will one day have to defend it. Where do you live? Is your husband constantly fighting off people? A runner may cause pain to himself/herslef -- but he/she is not causing another person's brain to bleed. I do not see the analogy.

John: I agree with what you have written. There is a violence separation between boxing and ultimate fighting (UF). UF is a blood sport and although I find both sports disgusting and can’t watch it because it goes against my LDS values – UF is much worse and it find societies acceptance of this sport extremely disturbing. In regard to Loudmouth’s comments, there is clearly discipline and technique in both sports. No doubt about that. But the fans tend to go wild when someone is lying on the canvass bleeding – not when a good combination is thrown (in boxing) that does not inflict pain.

I am trying to understand why people think they way they think. My main purpose is to understand. In the process, I am argue my postion -- but the main point is to understand how others think

I joined the church over 20 years ago and I remember the first time I met a member who liked watching the sport of boxing. I remember thinking how can a good Latter-Day Saint like such a sport – where the goal is really to inflict pain in others. I have recently noticed that some saints like ultimate fighting. Although there are a physical aspect to others sports, such as football and hockey – the goal of boxing or ultimate fighting is to hurt another person. And although there are football or hockey players that will try to hurt someone – there are rules to prevent this (e.g., e.g., a football player can be banned for spearing someone with a helmet). It seems to me the main goal of boxing and extreme fighting is to hurt another person. The ultimate goal in hockey is to score and in football it is a touchdown – the crowd goes wild when the puck is in the net or a touchdown is scored. In boxing or ultimate fighting, the crowd goes wild when someone is lying unconscious, their brain is literally bleeding, blood comes out of a nose, and the person losses unconsciousness and sometimes the entire body spasms. So, I would like to ask my Latter-Day Saints brothers/sisters who are boxing or ultimate fighting fans, how can you be supporting of these two sporting events and follow Latter-Day Saint values? I’m curious how you put this together.

Yes, the players on Detroit are clearly getting older. However, the Red Wings have to be the most talented and intelligent hockey team in a very long time. The way they pass (and puck control) is unbelievable. For Detroit, it will come down to injuries. There players, because they are older, will be more prone to be injured. If they have some luck and are relatively injury free (not like last year) they will win the cup again. If like last year, they have huge injury problems and are exhausted and have to play on the road right at the beginning of the play-off , they will only make it a round or two. But if they are healthy – they still have it. I think Chicago will still be extremely good (even without the 5 players they lost) but I also think the Canucks will be much improved this year. I’m a HUGE Toronto fan – I just hope they can make it to the play-offs.

Faded: I am not suggesting there is not an anti-Mormon or anti-religion feel among some California schools, like Berkley. However, PAC 10 schools have to be research division I universities (via the Carnegie rating system). The University of Colorado and the U of U are clearly division I research universities – BYU is not even close. Like all universities, BYU has some excellent programs and some not-so good programs. Overall, you can get a good education from BYU and I want my kids to go there for the environment and for dating purposes also, beyond education. But I believe BYU was overlooked by the PAC 10 because BYU is not a division I research rated school. BYU is a good school, but is not the top of the class when it comes to research aspirations, and thus could not meet the eligibility criteria of being a PAC 10 program.

John: I am an old fasion traditionalist and romantic in many ways. Both programs are doing well and I was hoping that tradition, loyalty, and showcasing the holes in the BCS would be greater values that money and status. I do hold BYU to a higher level of conduct because its is owned by the church. But I also realize that most people will follow free market values over such values as loyalty or tradtion. I really wanted a smaller conference to outshine the old boys club of football. In the end though, I hope both Utah and BYU can shine. Going back to what Ruck and I have been discussing, the Salt Lake Tribute had an article today outlinig next years schedule for BYU. Although BYU might stil pick up one or even two games -- here is the schedule: Hawaii, Utah, Oregon State, Texas, Central Florida, Utah State, Louisiana Tech, New Mexico State, San Jose State and Idaho. Texas is a big time program. Utah and Oregon State are solid PAC 10 games.,. The rest is really a joke -- although I am glad they will be playing Utah State as part of a Utah rirvalry.

Joe Doe: I am both a Utah and BYU fan -- although when they play eachother I root for Utah (a school I attended for seven years). However, I am disappointed that Utah left the mountain west and that BYU followed suit by leaving the moutain west. I was hoping that the mountain west would stick together and showcase that there are non-bcs leagues that can be in the top 5 consistantly year after year. With Utah, BYU and TCU -- the mountian west could have really debunked the BCS system. Likewise, I was hoping Boise State would have stated in the WAC to also underscore this point. I am disappointed in both the University of Utah and BYU for not staying in the mountain west.

Ruck: I do agree that Brain Kelly may make Notre Dame better. He is a proven coach. I guess we will see.

John: I am sorry I missed the Texas game. Yes, now they have one really good to great team to play. Do you know the details about Texas? Is it a two game series home and home? Nontre Dame is no longer a good team -- they have not been ranked in the top 25 for -- I think -- a couple of years. For the past few years and currently, TCU, Boise St., Utah and BYU are all MUCH better than Notre Dame.

Ruck: Do you really think BYU is going to be playing the same caliber of teams that Utah will in the PAC 10 or soon to be called Pac 12? Beyond Notre Dame – which I do not think is a very good football team anymore, they were good in the 1980s, but they have been awful at best recently – is BYU really going to play big time teams? I just read that they will play Central Florida and a group of WAC teams. I really think BYU is trying to gain national credibility in a very non-integrity way – play maybe one or two good teams and hoping to get in to BCS bowl games with two losses. In the PAC 12, Utah will be playing teams like UCLA, USC, Oregon, etc. on a regular basis. I think BYU is a good school for academic pursuits but trying to get into the BCS not playing in a strong conference or a group of really strong teams seems not really care about integrity. And what about their other sports – in BYU basketball (both men’s and women’s) really going to improve playing in the WCC?

My heart and prayers really goes out to the wife and family of this Bishop. Two quick thought related to this. First, although there are ministering angels and God really knows us and can protect us, I think many members do not fully understand the concept of agency. Agency really means that God will let others make choices – including extremely serious and sad ones. I am not sure if this was the Bishops appointed time or not – I think God allowed another person (who may have been mentally ill) to have agency. But I do know that in the eternal scheme, this family will be reunited (assuming they live baptismal covenants) and in the eternities this life experience will be short. But with that said, the poor wife and children are grieving and this is a really tragic event. Second, although I know we are blessed in life for the service we render, I think too many members pick their blessings and it really is up to Heavenly Father. When we pick future blessing and not let God pick them – we create a gap and sometimes people will question God rather than realize their thinking was off base. Serving in the sacred calling as Bishop does not guarantee safety and I do not know why some people are blessed to live longer and some are not. But I do know that Joseph Smith once stated that when it comes to understanding the mysteries of God, we are like babes on our mothers lap. My prayers go out to the family.

Perhaps I am wrong and others have a different view, but when I heard the BYU atheltic director talking about how this change will bring more recogniztion to BYU, I thought he was on another planet. First off, playing Notre Dame is not a big deal. They have been terrble for what, the last 5-7 years. When was the lst time they went to a solid bowl game? This is not 1980 -- Notre Dame is not a good football team anymore and I do not see them improving. Further, I can now see how ESPN will market this as a religiouos clash -- Mormons vs cathlolics. Not a good thing. Second, the WCC is not a strong conference -- I do not see how this helps basketball or women sports. Its a pretty small non-known conference. Third -- and I hope I am wrong -- I think BYU is going to lose many games against big time schools. I might be wrong, but i see this back-firing. If only Utah, BYU cold have stated in the Mouontain West -- along with TCU and Boise State, that conference could have really broke the BCS monoplogy. Sadly, Utah and BYU went after status and money -- not very good values.

Wingnut and Gwen: I am sorry, I am not understanding your last posts. I know I am still somewhat new here. I also know I have made some errors. I am not understanding the irony and deja vu comments. I am just trying to be respectful -- what am I missing?

KRP5: I might be off base -- and others can share if I am -- but I think your concern needs to be addressed in the men's/priesthood forum. This is a releif society/women's forum. If it is somethng that is an important concern you might want to try starting a new forum and seeing if there is interest. But I do not think its fits into a women's forum.

I have not read through the various posts, so I may be repeating thoughts. I think men and LDS brothers need to see breasts as not just sexual. If they can be seen -- and if men can re-condition themsevles -- to see breast as feeding for healthy babies -- breastfeeding in public would not be as big a deal as it is. I see this concern located with how men are socialized to think about the female body -- howevr, I do know men that would have a difficult time with women breastfeeding in public. Sadly though, so much of society -- from movies to cosmetic surgery -- focus on breasts as sexual. Just my 2 cents worth

BYU is joining the WCC. How sad. If I were an athelete on another sports teach, I sure would be disappointed that BYU men's football is viewed as so much more imporatn that others sports. I do not think indepedent status will work -- honestly, BYU is not that good of a football team. And the WCC is not a strong conference. I really wish they, and the University of Utah, would have put integrity to region and tradtion at a higher status than money. Its a sad day for Utah college sports and I feel for Utah State University the most

The flames will definitely be better, due to the changes they made. But I think the one team that is going to surprise people this year is Ottawa. I wish Andy Sotton would have stated, but rthe addition of Gonchar will help, along with Compoli improving. However, I think Detriot will be back on top, assuming they do not have injuriies like last year. Modano, although older, will help them.

I think many of the comments stated – especially Gwen’s – are spot on. The only thing I would add – hoping this is helpful – is that natural desires are not always correct indicators of behaviors. So, I would not be too worried about questioning yourself about the lack of natural desires to be a mother. I think the key – as already has been stated – is to fall in love, be honest with this man before you get married, be honest with Heavenly Father in prayer, and follow basic gospel principles – and then see what happens. I would add this. Although having children is very tough and sometimes when they become teenagers it becomes even tougher, they can open up some new and exciting things. Now that I have teenagers – and my wife and I have some real challenges with them – there are some really fun things you can do with them. Going out to eat as a family, going to a basketball game or an amusement park together. When they were younger I coached baseball and actual developed some really good friendships with non-members that I would not have if I did not have friends. So, you will be “locked-up” at home at times (especially when they are young and get sick) – but they can open up doors to new adventures also. But in the end, parenting is a very tough calling. I hope my comments were helpful.

I am a huge University of Utah fan, but was sad to see them sign with the PAC 10. I guess I’m a traditionalist and would like local football rivalries to continue (not just BYU and the U of U – but also with Utah State University). I was sad they left and picked money and fame over local identity and region. I am even more sadden, and dismayed, that BYU was thinking of going independent for money and fame and what looked to the coveting of the University of Utah. I also thought that this move was not fair at to the other sports (player athletes and coaches). I might be dead wrong – but it sounds like BYU administrators (not church leaders) did not even talk to coaches regarding moving other sports to the WAC. I just thought there would be more respect – but at the same time, we all are human and make mistakes.

Krp5: I interacted in this thread some time ago and was outlining I did not like the term “well-endowed” for the reasons that is still outlined earlier in this thread. I do not want to go back to that topic within this thread because I have realized that it was off topic and did not realize I was breaking important policies/moderating rules. I made a mistake in going too far off topic. However, I do think there are problems for both women and men that might be larger, or have differing body parts, in regard to garments. I never suggested that women with larger breasts did not have unique challenges. I had one really interesting conversation with a very good male friend regarding the advantages and disadvantages of differing styles of male garment bottoms (boxers, brief’s and the new type that are like underarmour). I do think size can be an issue and the three types can give very different types of support. However, there are other issues also, like rashes (some men really sweat in that are) and I have come to believe circumcision (or non circumcision) also have relevance to comfort and type of garment. I’m not sure if an actual post on the male size would be a good idea. I am not sure. I think it’s a needed discussion, and I think such topics can be talked about with maturity (even across gender), but I can also see how such a discussion can cross the line of crudeness and inappropriate sexual aspects quite easily. If such a topic was started, I would participate in and try my best to keep it on track – but I would also ask a moderator to keep a very close eye on it. I have made mistake on this forum before in not understanding who moderators were – but I do not think I have every crossed the line when talking about the sexual aspects of humanness in past threads. Talking about the sexual aspects of humanness is part of being human – so it’s a needed discussion, but then again, it can get out of control real fast. If you start such a forum - -and it might be good to check in with a moderator – please do not call it garments for “well-endowed” men – it’s really not a gift (and it could even be a curse:eek:). Further, and hoping I am following this sites rules, if you want to talk with me in private regarding this subject you are welcome to send me a private e-mail. But whether in private or on an open forum the most important aspects are not to move toward inappropriate conversation. In the end, though, regardless of problems (including other types of problems beyond this thread) – garments are to be worn as much as possible and really serve as a protection against evil and temptation and should be worn against the skin

I joined the Church about 25 years ago and it was the best decision I have every made. The Gospel is true and I agree completely with Margin of Error regarding the need to teach people about the Atonement and Christ oriented worth. With that said, however, the one aspect of LDS culture that I have struggled for years is how individualistic members thinking is on social issues and the lack of social responsibility and social consequences. Yes, the breast implants issue, like all issues, has a personal responsibility and personal accountability component. We make choices. However, there is a lack of awareness regarding how our actions or the environment can really influence others, even the strongest of people (not just what some posters are calling “the weak”) – like King David. Why do you think the Prophets counsel us to stand in Holy places? Why is the Church active in preserving marriage between and man and a woman? Why is the Church headquarters in Salt Lake City so involved in the revialtilization of the downtown core? The reason, in my mind, is because the social milieu or social factors really influence us. If gay marriage becomes law, the social consequences are that more people will see this as normal. If the downtown core in Salt Lake City becomes ugly and full of saloon’s it will influence how visitors to Salt Lake City perceive the Church. Social events and factors – which includes the behaviors of others – really do influence us. So I agree that part of the reason people struggled with the breast implants issue is due to choices. But do not be so utterly foolish to think that life interactions and other people’s behaviors do not influence others for the negative (or for the good). Being accountable for our actions does not mean we become blind of how our own individualistic actions can affects others. Being a self-giver – such as a good home teacher or visiting teacher -- is about constantly thinking of others and even changing our own behaviors to accommodate other people’s needs. Now again, these women should always be welcome in church because Church is a hospital for sinners, but these women should also be thinking about how their actions do affect others, that piece of cognitive information should be part of the decision making process. Being Christ-like is about being aware of others and trying to uplift them, knowing we all have human struggles we all deal with. It is much more than simply “personal choices” and “weak people” – it is personal choices with a social awareness of how our own actions affect others that should be at the core of such decision making (e.g., how might me getting a breast implant affect other people) – thus balancing personal responsibility with social responsibility. And if you do not think the social environment does not affect you, just look at your ethnic dress and ask yourself why you do not wear the ethnic dress of people in the Middle East. One last question – does anyone have an answer to the question I posed regarding are there any social benefits of women getting breasts implants. I have outlined all sorts of negative consequences and used the ward issue as a case study – but can anyone tell me any social benefits?

But soualsearcher, body image is a very real medical/health issues, for both men and women. It is associated with all sorts of struggles and illness, such as eating disorders and depression, scapel and exercise addiction, just to name a few. Body image is a ciritical part of youth development and personal identity. You are not thinking of the social implications, just the personal accountability of yourself.

Perhaps if I explain this ward situation with greater detail it might help understanding. Please remember I moved about of this ward seven years ago. To the best of my knowledge, two women in the ward – good friends – decided to get implants. Then over the months that followed, they wanted to share their excitement and their new found confidence with others. From what I know, they did not flaunt their new chests, but if anyone was willing to ask questions they went overboard to share their new experiences, which included actually show them to some of the other women in the ward and explaining the reactions of their husbands, with vague comments regarding the privacy of their bedrooms. This did cause a real stir of intrigue in the ward. Over the span of about two to three years, about five or six more women actual got breast implants, one was in the YM Presidency. Only one really flaunted it at church/community and two of the others although they did not flaunt, it was a notable difference – difficult to hide and one of these women was in the YW presidency. Then this flowed over to some of the YW – I do not know how many, but I would guess a handful -- asking their parents if they could get breast implants. One of the women who got them then let her 16 year of daughter get implants – which then lead to all sorts of contention in the YW program, including gossip and it seemed like the developed YM created a cliché as did the smaller breasted YW. Extremely sad and pathetic, yet true. Even worse, I know that many of the YM liked more of the larger breasted young women – even though the nother YW were cute and more important, having beautiful spirits. In one family, the daughter clearly asked for them for a high school graduation present – and she wanted to go to BYU!!! Urban fool, your reply is appropriate. If my daughter - -when she gets older - -wants breast implants I will tell her that when she is 18 she can decide how she spends her money. I would counsel her not to get them and explain both the personal risks (e.g., infections with surgery, plastic surgery exploitation where there are generally many return visits, long term health effects) and the social consequences (e.g., female role being located as sexual objects, harm to other women) but would make her sure she knows that if she went forward, I would still love her. I would also link it to gospel principles. However, Urban Fool, please keep in mind that this thread is suppose to outline the social consequences of breast implants, one’s that few women and men even think about, such as how their individual actions can actual cause harm to others. Breast implants, it seems to me, do not have many -- if any at all -- social benefits in life, be it a neighborhood, ward, or at the ideological level of femininity. Can anyone describe to me the social benefits? Most women (and supporting men) can talk about their self-oriented benefits (e.g., self confidence, self esteem, etc – if you consider, that is, self esteem based on breast size as a true psychological benefits – I see it more as a psychological weakness), but what are the social consequences? Magin of Error: Just curious if you check LDS.org regarding the keyword search on cosmetic or plastic surgery? Just curious if my interpretation of my own search seems trustworthy.