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The Savior did have a difference of opinion with the money changers at the Temple. Anatess, I get the learning self defesne and I think I have outlined that my view has changed on this aspect related to boxing and UF. I get that some people are motivated to learning boxing and UF to learn self defesne. I have no quarrel with this motivation and can understand why this can be benefical. What I am asking is how Christains justify atending boxing and UF fighting when there goal is not to learn self-defense. When the motivation is excitment and pleasure from watching people hurt others. Maybe I am wrong -- maybe most people who attend UF matches and the millions who watch on TV are all learning how to fight for self-defense purposes -- they all have geunine Christ-like values to learn self defense so that they can protect their families. I see none of this when I watch on TV -- but maybe I am wrong. The TV produces seem to focus on the villent hits, not the technique. The three I attend (for onservational reasons) I witnessed people partying and talkng about the bloody aspects when a nose was broken. I did not witness people talking about technique of fighting.

Loud Mouth and Others: Once upon a time I found hunting appalling. But after I listened to many LDS hunters who all stated similar things – which it was a spiritual experience – I began to question my past views. Some of these men told me they prayed before hunting as to not to cause undue pain to the animals and would pray right beside the animal after shooting them and outlined very spiritual experience. I know that some American Indian beliefs are similar – where they actually believe that animals purposely choose to travel where human hunters are and are purposely laying down their lives for the human hunters. I realized that I needed to see hunting from a different perspective. Today, even though I do not like hunting, I see it as a diverse group of people with diverse hunting motives. Some just like to kill, some do it to help with finances (it’s a cheaper way to have meat) and others have a profound spiritual experience with the actual animals. Some are motivated by fear of the last days and see hunting as preparedness. I then made the connection that I eat meat and participate in the killing of animals that I found appalling. I also realized that some of the killing techniques in slaughter houses – that I was supporting though mindless meat purchasing -- were quite inhumane and more so than the hunters I appalled. So, I changed my entire meat purchasing behaviors and now primarily purchase meat at stores that participate in what I consider more humane slaughter practices and purchase milk from a company that states their cows are steroid and chemical free. I came to these two conclusions by asking challenging questions. The question I keep asking – not to condemn – but because it seems so very opposite to my views on boxing and UF fighting is below: From a Christian perspective do you really think the Savior would encourage us to go to fights where people really do hurt each other, cheer and yell for someone to brutally hurt another person? Do you think the Savior would encourage this? Just read the last part of the link I provided (above) and can you honestly tell me the Savior would think creating this type of damage to another human – so that other people can have some sick degree of pleasure watch and cheering -- being would be OK? Dravin is right, no one has to answer and you can choose to ignore me. That is OK. But silence also communicates. I just really want to know how fighting advocates who identify themselves as Chritains put the spectator side of UF and boxing together.

Or, Dravin, its a good way to side step the question. You can claim I am condeming when I have been forthright in explaining -- I can't fathom how a Christain can attend a UF or boxing match -- please explain. How much more honest can I be? I hope the "you are codeming" or "do not judge" is not being used to side step a question I have asked. I am trying to understand other people who have a very different view on a topic. I really want to hear the answer.

Faded: Do you really think the American Medical Association (and these other 11 medical authorities) are really hypocrites? When we are sick or need surgery I do not think we see medical doctors are hypocrites. There are bad doctors about there – no doubt – but you are claiming that the entire American Medical Association and these 11 parallel organizations are hypocrites because they want boxing and ultimate fighting banned. Their rational seems very fair-minded to me – boxing and UF is different than contact sports because boxing and UF purposely try to damage vital human organs like the kidney or brain. Other sports like soccer do not purposely allow this. When there is trauma to the brain, the brain bleeds or the kidney bleed – this is why it is a blood sport, not a contact sport. Perhaps these medical authorities that credential medical practice are not hypocrites – perhaps there medical training (sometimes up to 20 years of university school0 really do know more. Perhaps you just do not know enough about the functioning of vital organs to be in a position to really understand. Second – and this question is not just for you, but is for all the people who advocate UF and boxing who identify as a Christian – can you really see Jesus Christ endorsing this? I just can’t visualize the Savior cheering and yelling at a UF match as one person smashes another person and possible breaks their nose or causes damage to another person’s brain that they loss consciousness. Do you really see the Savior supporting this? I am not trying to condemn. However, because I think the Savior would find UF and boxing matches so revolting, I am simply try to understand how anyone who identifies as a Christian can put it together that the Savior would endorse watching this for pleasure. I understand the self-defense training – but the spectator aspect and enjoyment of watching people pound each other does not seem like something any Christian should participate in. How do you (and other pro UF spectator) put this together?

Faded: I think we just have very different interpretations of health and Christian behavior. Here is where I think we differ. First, research in brain development outlines very clearly that trauma to the brain changes the brain structure. If a part of the brain is damaged and does not work – a person can still live and function – you can see this is some people who live after a stroke or after a car accident with brain injury. Some become dressed (due to brain changes) and some lose their balance. Repeated strikes to the head – be it soccer or UFC causes brain damage and the consequences of brain damage are vast (meaning, all people with brain damage do not have the same effect). Competent medical doctors and health researchers have begun to outline that repeated trauma to the brain can cause brain injury and then cause a person to become depressed and kill themselves or have bizarre behavior like running alone in a dessert. It is the brain changes due to the brain trauma that causes these. In football, the same phenomenon is being seem – those players with repeated concussion do have brains that have actually changed physiologically. So, death from brain damage is not always a kick to the head and then the person is dead 30 minutes later – it can be repeated kicks to the head and after 5 or 10 years of this, the person becomes bizarre and does something like kills himself. I would challenge you to have more ubiquitous thinking and see some of the deaths of UFC fighters coming from repeated brain trauma. Second, I see the eleven medical authorities – including the Canadian and American Medical Association – as the most mature and credible source of health information. Further, I think their collective voice is much more credible than your single voice. I will begin to change my position when you can render real credible health organizations (such as the American Public Health Association, the American Psychological Association, AMA) that state that UFC and boxing does not create serious problems. I might be wrong, but I think you’re a UFC advocate and therefore you think you know more than the AMA and these other 11 medical authorities. I differ – if the AMA and CMA, along with 10 other medical authorities state that boxing and UF should be banned due to the health damage – I am not going to think I know more than them. I do not think you know more than them. Third, where I can agree with you is in the area of self defense. I can understand learning ultimate fighting skills to protect oneself . I can also agree with you that people would need to step inside the ring to really learn fighting skills or watch others. But it is an incredible stretch to suggest that this is what is going on in some of these big ticket matches that thousands if not millions of people watch live or on TV. No one has to watch this level of intense fighting to learn basic fighting skills to protect their home. I think too many people are using this as a rationalizing thought in order to continue to feel some degree of natural-man pleasure of watching someone get brutally beat up. Fourth, it is not like other contact sports because other contact sports do not purposely try to create damage to vital human organs. In soccer, a player does not try to kick another person in the head hoping to cause the brain to bleed, which results in loss of consciousness. This is one reason why medical organizations have banned it. I would not lump boxing and UF into contact sports – it a blood sport, not a contact sport. Fifth and I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, but I just can’t see Jesus Christ endorsing this. I can’t visualize him cheering and yelling at a UF match as one person smashes another person and possible breaks their nose or causes such damage to another person’s brain that they loss consciousness. Do you really see the Savior supporting this?

I have had some problems in this area and I have had another problem with rashes – only when I lived down south in high humidity. Here is what I have learned: The boxer types that are made to wick away sweat work extremely well in regard to making a certain area of my body cooler and dealing with rashes. However, I do not like the lack of support and find faster movement (such as playing basketball in the driveway) causes discomfort. The cotton briefs do the opposite – they provide good enough support, but increase the heat and sweating in this area – which then contributes to heat rash ) again, when I lived in the south with high humidity). I have found the new under-armor type to be the best in the summer or in heavy sweating areas (e.g., inside work in the heat). They wick away sweat, keep things cooler, and give good enough support. I still have some support problems – but I think they are the best in regard to your issue and the ones I have had. I usually wear them in the summer and the cotton type (briefs and boxers) in the winter. However, when just hanging out or doing activities that require little fast movement and little sweating (e.g., sitting in a boat fishing in the fall, going to church), I like boxers the most. KRP5, have you tried the newer under-armor type?

Faded (and other UFC advocates): There is no doubt that injury happen in other sports. There is a good deal of research that outlines that years of butting heads in the NFL is causing damage to the brain and that this, along with multiple concussion, actually causes the brain to change – leading to long term health issues, like depression But keep in mind the comparisons you are making between football, hockey and UFC are not fair-minded because you are comparing a sports with an over 100 year history to the UFC, which really began somewhere in the middle of the 1990’s. I am sure in 100 years, there will be more more damage to UFC fighters than football players. Again, in the NHL there are penalties to blows to the head in UFC and boxing blows to the head are encouraged. (see Recent MMA fighter deaths raise questions | MMAjunkie.com regarding this issue in UFC and boxing). Furthermore, why does the AMA and CMA advocate a ban on boxing and UFC, but not others sports like baseball, football or hockey? Even in baseball a 100 mile an hour fastball to the head can cause death. The reason is that in these others sport, although injuries happen, the sport does not advocate the purposeful injury of vital human organs, like the brain. In UFC and boxing – it’s the opposite – blows to key organs -- like the brain -- are encouraged and advocated. Further, why do eleven national medical associations (Australia, Bangladesh, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Ghana, Ireland, New Zealand, Nigeria, Norway and South Africa) confirmed their opposition to boxing (and many of the UFC) and not other sports? Why are not these eleven medical authorities advocating a ban on soccer? Beyond answering these two questions, from a Christian perspective do you really think the Savior would encourage us to go to fights where people really do hurt each other, cheer and yell for someone to brutally hurt another person? Do you think the Savior would encourage this? Just read the last part of the link I provided (above) and can you honestly tell me the Savior would think creating this type of damage to another human – so that other people can have some sick degree of pleasure watch and cheering -- being would be OK?

I use to watch wrestling like 15 or 20 years ago and then I realized one day that I was supporting an entertainment industry that really contributes to some really awful things. I have learned that wrestlers are treated incredibly unfairly, the steroid use is high (which changes brain formation), and the death rate is high. I finally thoughts were: (1) there really are better ways to spend my time, and (2) I did not want to support an organization that really does terrible things. In the end, I just can’t see Jesus Christ supporting something like this – so I do not think I should also. Although we are all sinners and have natural man/women tendencies -- we really should be trying to act as the Savior would. So, I could not justify it from a Christain perspective and stopped watching it. I agree with Anatess about the women in skimpy clothes and curtishouse about the men also in skimpy clothes. Although not research based, I think this news article outlines the many deaths – it’s a brutal industry. Pro Wrestler's Deaths

I forgot to mention in my last post -- right above -- that this policy statement by the British Medical Assocation has 26 reference and is full of research support.

Below is a great website from the British Medical Assocaition outlining how boxing (and by extension UF) is so much more deadly than other sports. Boxing - The British Medical Association It is an excellent read

I do not deny there can be real learning in watching people fight each other and pitting one style against the other. Anatess has taught me that learning to fight for self-defense is vital in some places. However, I still think beating another person -- even if both peoplel agree to it, such as in UF, does not fit within the standards descriobed by God. Perhas this Muay Thai Fighting will catch on and in our life time we can watch some fights to the death!!!!

I think there have been some really good thoughts shared here. I do not need to add more -- but this was a real tradegy and is extremely sad. I feel not only for this young man -- but also for his family and parents.

Tarnished: Perhaps I do not know enough about ultimate fighting to know the difference you have outlined. However, both the American Medical Association and the Canadian Medical Association has called on government to ban this sport. It is a blood sport and is barbaric. Both the AMA and CMA have not created a policy to ban sports like baseball or football. I still maintain that unlike other sports, ultimate fighting is focused on causing serious injury to the vital human organs. If you can cause the brain to seizure and bleed, you win to the delight of the fans. In other sports, such actions are banned. In football and hockey any hits to the head are banned and suspensions can often occur (except for fighting n hockey, which I vehemently oppose). You can't throw a ball to the head in baseball. But in UF, the goal is to cause serious damage to vital organs. Sorry, I can't accept it and I'm not sure I can see the Lord sitting there cheering when a persons nose is broken and blood flies everywhere. I do not deny there can be some benefits such as training and fitness – but it is a blood sport that is reminiscent of Roman blood fights. I am not stating this directly toward you, but I do know other UF fans that I think use the watchig skills line as an excuse to cover the fact that they gain pleasure out of watching someone suffer.

John: Making a claim or proposition and then highlighting a potential limitation regarding one’s own claims is a sign of mature, in-depth, ethical and empathetic thinking. Thinking one is right and not outline one’s own limitations is a sign of a poor and lower level thinker. That is why I outlined my frustration with the firing of Hill, but also highlighted my own limitations. I am obviously struggling with BYU’s athletic direction decisions. Here is how I put my thoughts together • My value statement is that I wanted the Mountain West Conference, and possible the WAC, to bust the money driven, status driven, and completely unfair BCS system. The Mountain West – with Utah, BYU, TCU (and possible Air Force) were on their way to bust the BCS thus possible creating a new system that could have been fairer to non-included teams. With the rise of Boise State, the WAC could have had one team that could beat the power-house teams also, thus putting more pressure on the BCS flaws. The BCS system is not fair and is a status and money driven system. It has not been fair to teams like BYU, Utah, Boise State, Hawaii, and TCU. • Utah was the first to bolt for money and status. • Boise State left the WAC for the same reasons – money and status • BYU then bolted for money and status and in the process contributed (not the sole cause) of the demises of the WAC. I hold BYU administration to higher standards that Utah and Boise State. From what I read in the Utah newspapers, the General Authorities gave the BYU athletic department the autonomy to make whatever decision was need – thus not endorsing or rebuking the plan. The people responsible are the BYU sports administration. I also think BYU leaving seemed like a jealous knee jerk reaction to the attention Utah was getting and BYU was marketing their football team as a top ten with independence – comparing them to Notre Dame (who is not a very good football team anymore). • BYU then fires Jamie Hill. To fire a single coach right after a losing streak after BYU has outlined its future football greatness – seems like a low act to make. I am aware that I do not know the inside information – maybe Jamie Hill was a monster to work with – but there are more kind decisions that to fire a person outright, the day after the Utah State loss (scapegoating). BYU could have re-assigned him, provided some dignity while Jamie Hill covertly searched for another job. Firing is pretty brutal. • Then Elder Uchtodorf delivers an inspired message regarding how sports can often be the example of pride, status, and envy with a winning at all cost mentality. I do not think Elder Uchdorf was directing his message to BYU – he was directing it to all Saints. There were many messages I needed to learn from General Conference and I will be the first to state I am full of sin and need to become a better person – but I also think Elder Uchtdorf’s counsel is timely in regard to how the BYU sports administers are acting. I hope my outlining thoughts create some degree of clarity. In many ways, John, I am using this thread to process my own frustration with the changes in the mountain west and what looks like the demises of the WAC conference. The fingerprints of pride, status, and envy seem everywhere in these football conference changes and BYU should be a role model – not a equal partner – in this.

John: I am frustrated that both Utah and BYU left the moutain west conference. However, I am more frustrated with how the BYU sport adminstrators handeld the firing of Jamie Hill. BYU is suppose to be a role model of Christ-like living. Certainly, they could have re-assigned Jamie Hill or handled this with greater kindness that firing the guy in the middel of the season during a losing streak. I do not know the internal workings of the coaching staff and maybe there are things that I really have no clue about that makes a good justification for firing Hill. However, it does seem like he is being used as a scapegoat becasue the football team is trying to outline its higher status in football. Now what did Elder Uchtdorf say about sports and envy and status Saturday night in priesthood conference? I think the way BYU handed this entire leaving the Mountain West Conference was fairly classless and poor -- it seem linked to pride and envy.

I can agree with many of the comments written here. Exercise helps with seritonin uptake and there is some good research support of light therapy. Counseling helps and of course, turning to the Lord is always helpful. There are side effects from anti-depression medications - -and for some its wrose than others. However, there is a place for medications to help a real medical disease/disorder and they do help some people. All I am suggestings is that anti-depressants can help in cases and can be seen as a blessing from God.

I thought there was some irony that Bronco fired Hill on Saturday morning and that evening at Priesthood conference Elder Utchtdoft spoke about how sports creates envy, social comparison, and pride. I really am a BYU fan, but in many ways there is some justice in this losing streak. First, the BYU administration (not the General Authorities) acted like a jealous group of high school teenagers and acted too fast to jump out of the Mountain West Conference when Utah bolted (and I am still upset Utah bolted). Then, they help destroy the WAC by flirting with the idea of joining thr WAC to go indepdent t and have their other teams join the West Coast Conference (not very fair to the other sports teams). They then attempt to present a football team that can be a top 5 or 10 team via independence if they can only have two losses and set up a schedule next year that really does not have that many good teams to play (other than Texas - -who are no unranked – but are still good). I realize that next year schedule was rushed and I need to see if they schedule really good teams in the next few years. I know I do not know the internal workings of the BYU sports administration – but I just see pride everywhere and I am now thinking that this elevated status is putting more pressure on the football team and this has resulted in Jamie Hill being the scapegoat. Again, I do not know the internal workings of what is going on with the football team – but I think a more classy and kind act would have been to let Jamie Hill go after the end of the season – not right after the Utah State loss which does present him as a scapegoat.

Depression, like other mental health disorders, is a very real medical issue and in my mind is no different than other illnesses, such as hypertension, cancer or diabetes. I see medications as a blessing from the Lord and have always struggled with members who think that medications are not divine intervention. There have been some wonderful opinions shared here regarding how anti-depressants can help. Psychotherapy and counseling can also help and I also see these as real blessings from the Lord.

Loundmouth: One quick item of disagreement. Did I not outline that I learned from Anatess that there are places in which self defense is needed. I may not have changed my mind on the boxing/UF sport not being aligned to LDS values, but i did indeed share that i learn some aspects from Anatess and did change my postion on that. You gotta give me some credit!!!

Obviously there are many of you who have a difference of an opinion and I do not have the time to address all of the individual replies – point by point (or point by counterpoint). For example, in replying to Loudmouth’s question to outline research regarding car crashes and saving lives, here is a single reference: U.S. Department of Transportation - NHTSA - Process and Outcome Evaluation of the Buckle Up America Initiative - DOT HS 809 272. You will have to navigate through the site, but there is a chart on the very front page that clearly outlines the correlation between seat belt use and fatality rate. In 1988, when 45% of people wore seat belts about 2.3 million people died. In 1997, when about 70% of people wore seatbelts the fatality rate went down to about 1.6 million. Some of the other references are in book form. For example, if you want to learn about different types of studies that outline that more violent sports increases violence in people, you can read such books as the one from Drs. Hundley and Billings called “Examining identity in sports media” or Dr. Betsy Wearing called “Feminist and leisure.” The point I am making is that I do not have the time resources to rebuttal the many claims point by point – but I would rather make sweeping remarks regarding the overall summary of those who have a different view with four propositions. First, I do not see myself as distorting other people’s views, what Dravin is referring to as a straw person fallacy. I simply disagree with the values – just because someone has a disagreement does not mean there is a distortation. Second, I think there is a lot of drifting and rambling by many people, including myself. At essence I am arguing that the sport of boxing and ultimate fighting have an explicitly goal to bruise and bloody vital human organs (e.g. brain, kidneys). This is why the AMA has tried to ban these sports. Other sports such as hockey, tennis, race car driving, and football do not have a desire to damage vital organs explicitly like this. Yes, it can still happened (a hard football collision can cause this or a car crash in racing) – but it is not as explicit where the goal is to cause vital organ failure/damage so a person collapses. When boxers aim to punch it is purposely at the vital organs – when you tackle in football you can often aim for the legs or knees. A good body check is hockey is shoulder to shoulder. Third, although I can see the fitness benefits of most sports (and although there are also negative aspects, like hockey or race car drivers drinking beer) – I just can’t see a sport that purposely aligns to damaging vital human organs being connected to LDS values of serving and uplifting others. I just can’t see the connection. Four, I started this post to see how people put these two aspects together. Beside some rambling, I have heard one fairly good justification in regard to learning boxing or ultimate fighting skills – which was by Anatess as she outlined that you can use such skills for self defense. However, I have not heard anything that seem reasonable to me regarding how people can watch boxing/ultimate fighting (spectator) and still align to gospel standards. I still see watching such sports as pleasure/enjoyment in the natural man – having a sense of emotional or physical arousal by seeing another person suffer.

Soul: I played competitive hockey for years (had my front teeth knocked out) and even had one really good friend and three other ok friends play in the NHL -- I can tell you that there are hockey players that want to hurt others -- but most do not explcity try to cause bleeding to internal organs. The physical contact is to knock a player off of the puck -- not to knock them out. A boxer cheers and dances when the opponent is on canvass -- its an explcit aspect of boxing. Very rarely do you see this is hockey and when you do, it a penality with a suspension. Hockey is a hard hitting sport, but there is protection and the goal is not to knock another person out. There is a big difference. I do not see you connection.

Yes, I am a hockey and football fan. And although there are some hockey and football players that want to hurt other players (e.g. a hockey fight), the goal of hockey is to score and when the puck is in the net the fans go wild. Fans go wild in ultimate fighting when someone is knocked out and bleeding from their ears. And although there are many fans that like the fights, I detest them and have advocated in differing arenas (e.g., minor hockey) to eliminate fighting, which is focus on hurting someone. I detest the fighting aspects of hockey and think they are ugly. When hockey players body check the goal is to knock the person off of the puck – not to injury them. It is not like boxing, where the goal is to cause the brain to bleed. So, I watch the game of hockey because of the enjoyment of the game – not for an explicitly action to hurt another person. Boxing and ultimate fighting, unlike many others sports (car racing, baseball, tennis) is at it core an activity that is explicit to cause bleeding to vital organs. And although this can happen in hockey by accident or purposeful on a players part – it is not an explicit aspect of the game. Honestly, soul, I see this as a fundamental difference.

Dravin: I do not see how your analogy fits. If someone had depression they should use medications. This is a very real medical condition and there is a large body of knowledge that outlines that anti-depressants can be helpful. In regard to seat belts, there is a large body of research that this saves lives (just go and look at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration data – millions of lives have been saved). The reason Loudmouths’ analogy does not work is that I could present a large amount of research evidence that cleanly outlines that millions of people are being hurt and killed who do not wear seatbelts. This similarity does not fit the analogy. But can you outline really good research evidence that outlines that boxing or ultimate fighting skills saved people? If we want to get into that debate, I know of multiple studies – including sport studies – that clearly outline that watching violent sports (like boxing) make people more violent. If we want to get into a dialogue, there is solid research that outlines that the lax aspect of gun laws is what contributes to killings (among many other factors). The analogy goes not fit. Where is the research that guns will be needed to protect a food supply or that watching boxing or ultimate fighting helps people protect their food supplies? I can understand anatess situation at face value. She lives in a really tough neighborhood where there really is violence and I can see how having fighting skills could help. In my original post I was foolish to not realize that there really are some rough and tumble places both in the united States and in other countries. But this is really a far stretch from the average Joe that likes to watch ultimate fighting or boxing where in essence, two people literally beat their brains in. Why do you think the American Medical Association (AMA) has been trying to ban boxing for many, many years (see http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2002/07/08/hlsb0708.htm).? The original question at hand was how can a person who makes covenants to act like the Savior watch a sport that is based on beating vital human organs – causing the kidneys or the brain to bleed -- that the AMA has been trying to shut down since 1983? And so far, it seem like the only answer provided is that one can watch these sports as a way to motivate themselves to learn how to fight so that in the future they would have better self-defense skills. This makes some sense to me – but do others really have to watch such sports in order to learn or be motivated to acquire self-defense skills? In will also add that I think many if not most people who watch such sports are simply giving apetite to the natural man and then make rationalized excusses.

Dravin: yes, I have had many conversations with many members who clearly have fear and they rest it in the arm of oneself (buy guns) rather than in God. The binary aspects need to be unmaksed so that peolple can begin to seperate the connection between fear and guns with replacing fear with faith. I think its an important step toward awareness relevant to waht seems to be a gun obsession in the united States. It is dichotomy -- but one that needs to be doen in order to seperate confused thougths that covare do to fear.

Anatess: It sounds like you live in a really brutal community. I am sorry it has been so harsh for you. I am glad I asked where you lived, because it did not sound like anywhere I have lived in both the United States and Canada. I can see how in your community you would need to be ready to fight and possible kill.