Kishkumen_Called

Sue I think your husband's fundamental issue is "why should those who are ignorant of the law be held responsible and punished as if they knew the law?" It seems to me we all have been dancing around this idea. His fundamental beef is "how could the Lord be so unjust and un-merciful?" I have a few thoughts: 1 - we are all held responsible to the light and knowledge we have, be it little or great. Those who ignorant of the gospel still must repent, given what they knew to be right (even if they didn't accept it). The ignorant are not necessarily innocent! 2- I believe that your husband is applying the "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth" too overly broad. I believe that statement applies to those reject Christ and must take on their own repentance. This is my opinion only. 3 - It's not unreasonable to think that different levels of righteousness can co-exist in the same place. Just like those who do not make and keep temple-level covenants do not enjoy going to the temple, those who have not made the necessary covenants and ordinances will be kept from Spirit Paradise until they do. 4 - Finally, as in all matters, it's a matter of faith. Even if none of our explanations make sense or quiet his concerns, he can either put aside his doubt and pray that the Lord will open his heart to understand His doctrine or your husband won't. I know for myself, I have plenty of questions/issues, but for now, it's enough for me to know that the Savior has my best interest and He will give me what I need to know, when I need to know it. Has your husband asked the Lord to quiet his fears, even if his understanding is not yet complete? In my mind, this is a necessary step, because even if your husband finds an explantion that he accepts, he won't be at peace with the idea until the Spirit confirms the truth of it. Cheers

Time out. I have a number of issues with your statements. This being "thrust down to hell" is what Alma is talking about. This is when they are sent to Outer Darkness for a time to pay the price of breaking a Telestial Law (because nobody can pay the price of a Celestial Law expect Christ). First, Telestial behavior does not mean going to Outer Darkness, even for a day trip. Joseph Smith was very clear that Outer Darkness was only for those who merited it (sufficient light & knowledge and then rejection of Jesus Christ). Any and ALL punishment for those who merit a degree of glory takes place in Spirit Prison - there is no other doctrine or statement to justify any other conclusion. It is not given for us to know how those who merit Outer Darkness are treated. This is a pretty much the start of the punishment for those going to the Telestial Kingdom. With the exception of those going to Outer Darkness, all after-life punishment starts and ends in Spirit Prison. There is no continued punishment. That is why those who merit the Lesser Kingdoms have to stay in there for longer - they have their repentance to work out. Once they have sufficiently repented and are granted a degree of glory, the Lord tells us: And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Heb 10:17 The Lord does not hold our sins over our heads for eternity. How would that be a merciful God? Once we pay the price, we move on, clean slate; just like here. Others (those that haven't heard of the gospel) go to the Celestial Kingdom This only applies if they accept the gospel. Prior ignorance during life is not an automatic "Go to the Celestial Kingdom" card. They will have to accept Christ as their Savior, work out their salvation, then they may progress. Again, they have to make the choice to follow the Savior, even if they were ignorant of the gospel during life. those that accept the Gospel the second time (after having it beeing give to them already) go the middle kingdom Terrestial. That's the Lord's call. He's given us His guidelines for how we are to live our lives, but He reserves judgement. I'm sure I will find people that I thought were absolutely crappy Mormons in the Celestial Kingdom and people I thought were fabulous members not making the grade. All I'm told is what I must do - how He judges them is way beyond any of us.

I'm not sure I buy the idea that more disasters are occuring - it's very likely (and even probable) that we're just doing a better job at recognizing them disseminating information (no consolidated record of natural disasters); perhaps it just seems like more because we hear about them 24/7. Kind of like hypervigilance of flu symptoms because of H1N1. On the other hand, I'm unsure where it says that there will be an increase (vs prior times) in the calamities of our times, only that there would be many. Does it actually matter that there are more or just that they occur? Probably same difference. Cheers

My opinion is that the unadulterated word (Scriptures) are the best books and the best sources of doctrine, especially when I'm enlightened by the Spirit. Everything else is watered-down.

I'm going from memory here, but I don't recall that "weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth" was associated with Spirit Prison per se, but it's a term associated with sinners and their unrepentant state And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth D&C 95:8). This may or may not apply to ALL those who are in Spirit Prison. If you'll recall, we're also expected to be true to the light we have been given; this applies if we have the gospel or not. If we are not true to the light and knowledge we have, we will need to repent and accept Christ's atonement in our behalf, which like all true repentance causes sorrow and grief (even if only for a short time). So, those without prior knowledge may be sorrowful as they repent of their sins (what their responsible for, anyways). No surprises there. From what I've read, separation of the body and spirit is not a joyful experience. That may contribute to the sorrow felt in Spirit prison; however, I would expect those feelings would be magnified in the absence of the gospel knowledge. The last thing to consider is that the Lord is as abundantly merciful as He can be and only imposes as little justice as He can. I'm sure that Spirit prison falls within those parameters. This takes faith to accept. Hope this helps your husband.

I both agree and disagree. We do have a duty, including to safeguard our own well being. However, I think the second great commandment supercedes duty - we're supposed to have charity / Christ-like love for ALL people, include those who have offended us. However, I believe that a Christ-like love does NOT equate to being a 'doormat'; in fact, I believe it's quite the opposite. Christ loved those individuals who hated him; however, he condemned their actions, protected those more vulnerable than Himself, and had a wonderful sense of self-worth. As we are his brothers and sisters, I believe we have the same capacity and duty. However, we must rely upon His grace to receive those blessings (much in the same way we would petition for any OTHER gift of the Spirit, which is how I characterize forgiveness). My two cents. Cheers.

Forgive my forwardness, but if YOU are trying to forgive, you are not applying the Atonement - you are attempting to be your own savior. I have found in those truly difficult cases (where I am clearly out of my depth due to my lack of experience, understanding, and maturity), that my "do that I can do" is ask the Lord to take this burden (offering up my resentment on the same altar as my "broken heart and contrite spirit" - or my weak attempt, anyways :) I place the burden on His shoulders, along with any expectation of the results and any residual desire to hang on to my hurt feelings (both out of my control), and He makes it possible for me to forgive. I often have to do things I wish I could avoid (apologize for my feelings towards the person, even though I felt they were clearly in the wrong), but sooner or later, He heals my broken heart. That's' the best answer I have. It works for me. Cheers.