JessicaHarper

This is one of my "hesitations" as well. Along with the restoration, priesthood and current prophets. I hope you get some insightful answers.

Hey, I do not do those things either! We agree, bytor, we agree!

I believe that I am the adopted child of God, brought near by the blood of Christ! I am thankful for Christ as well. Maybe one day we will agree, bytor. But, again, it is nice to know what the other believes. Suppose I am nerd finding this fun.

So, do you believe that only the physical world (other than humans) was effected by the fall?

Are sinless and innocent the same thing? We are turning Adam and Eve into being innocent/naive rather than sinless. I wonder if they mean the same thing. They were obviously not toddlers, got created them to make toddlers. We are not going to agree about this. But it is nice to understand what one believes.

I can agree to ALL of this except agreeing to come here to enter into a mortal probationary period. I do believe I am "only" God's creation.

Justice, Do you believe there is any man on earth that will not choose to sin? Scripture says ALL MEN fall short...regardless of when we become a sinner, ALL MEN fall short. Scripture tells us that through one man (Adam) death entered the world. We all inherit that from Adam, we don't have a choice there. It is simply the nature of the here and now.

What manner must we come to Christ? Faith in Christ. As to those before Christ, God made a way for them as well. Speaking of the Jews. They also had to live by faith. There are passages in the NT referring to OT persons saying that their faith was credited to them as rightesousness. But they also had to make sacrifices for their sins, blood sacrifices to atone for their sin. With Christ, his blood atones for our sin. Again talking about those that have not, or will not hear...I honestly don't know, bytor. Romans tells us that God's creation tells confirms He is creator and God. Are they going to know to say a prayer, get dunked in some water, know the name of Jesus? I would not think so. I really don't know. But what I do know is that our God is merciful and just. I think we can take comfort in that. If there was no sin, we would be sinless, as we will be in Heaven. I hope the word sex is allowed on this forum because I am going to use it. I don't believe is sinful, not within the marital relationship, as God has designed it. I don't think there would have been a problem with Adam and Eve having sex, how else do we multiply? Hold hands? God commanded multiplication before sin. If God had commanded Adam and Eve to multiply knowing full well that in order to multiply they MUST sin, that would be really deceptive. Could God have started over at that point? Sure. Did He? No. Do I know why? No. We can go over the "well He could have done x,y,z..." all day long but there is no point because it didn't happen that way. It is not the reality we are dealing with. When the Missionaries sprung this passage on me, I had one of my "You cannot be serious?!?!" moments. Let me ask this. Do you believe Jesus was sinless? I do. I also believe that He felt joy, He did an amazing amount of good, and he was sinless...just as Adam and Eve were before the fall. In my mind, if God created us to sin, why in the world did He tell us not to, knowing full well He created us to? Why would God send His son to die for a people He created to sin? For me this just sets up a "It's all God's fault" viewpoint. I believe God is omniscient, but I don't believe He created Adam and Eve to sin...did He create them with that ability, yes, but with that purpose, NO! Did God know we would sin? I have to think He did. I am glad He didn't scrap me. Why not start over? Again, I don't know. I just know He didn't. Being human, we will never understand (at least this side of Heaven) the love God has for us. Not in an eternal past sense (that we lived) but we will live in an eternal future sense. Ha! Eternal past and future...yeah...makes sense, huh? I believe that everyone who proclaims faith in Christ should be baptized because we are commanded to be baptized, Christ was baptized, the conversion accounts we see in Acts are all immediately followed by baptism. I was baptized (I know my baptism is not legit to LDS but I think God accepts it ). This may shock you, I don't know, but I don't think the Catholics have it all right, or the Baptists, or the Methodists, or the Lutherans, or the LDS. Are they offshoots? In that they subscribe to many of the same "basics" (the virgin birth, the Trinity, Christ's life, death and resurrection, Christ being the only way to Heaven). I don't believe a great apostasy, defined by the LDS church, has occurred.Hope this helps, bytor. Did you believe any of this or did you just not know?

I don't think that churches decry the LDS faith on a pure numbers/competitive basis. It isn't a game. Although, I would say that the growth of the LDS church has put it on many Christian churches radars because of their belief that the LDS church is a cult and the eternal significance of that, from their perspective.

Some people just hate religion in general and do not discriminate between LDS, JW, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Muslim, etc. I can say without a doubt that many professed Christians believe that the LDS faith is a cult and therefore those who subscribe to that faith have been led astray and are not true followers of Christ. In that case, those people are really concerned for a person's eternal salvation. Many of these Christians think that LDS people are great people, probably the most moral people on earth, some of the most dedicated people to their faith (think missions, tithing, temple work, etc.).

My missionary sent me this, I thought I would share. Mormon Temple: Ceremony

I have used these sites. Mormon Truth and Book of Mormon Evidences: Not Proof, But Indications of Plausibility LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage Publications - Journal Each one of these sites contains information other than archeology as well.

Great, I think it is a good book. Did you order the one by Neil R. Lightfoot? I am sure there have to be 400 books with the title "How We Got the Bible."

God did provide a way for ALL to come to salvation in the same way, through His son, Jesus Christ. There is no salvation apart from Christ. I really do not know. But I do "like" the LDS theory. I believe we would. God would not have given the command to be fruitful and multiply had it not been possible. Would we all fit into the Garden of Eden? Would I even be born since my father was married/divorced before he married my mother? I am not sure we can answer that questions because the reality is that we live in a fallen, sinful world. There would have been no need for God's plan of salvation had Adam and Eve not sinned. The plan of salvation through Jesus Christ is a RESULT of the fall. I am sure. I have asked the same question. Free will, or agency...we are not puppets. I do not think so. I believe I came into existence sometime around August 1982. I believe we do, Christ would not have come to earth, lived a sinless life, died on the cross for the atonement of our sins and raised again so that we will be resurrected, if we will not exist after death.I Because God chose not to do it that way, I believe. Well, back in August 1982... I believe our ultimate purpose on earth is to come to salvation in Jesus Christ and walk with him until our death. This life is merely a snap of the fingers compared to what eternity will be. I think that Heaven is beyond our comprehension. We know from Scripture that is a place of glory, it is sinless, we will be with God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), and that there are no tears. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, we deserve punishment. God is pure, sinless...He can not tolerate sin, and we have all sinned, He has given us an "out" through His son, Jesus Christ. If God didn't care, He would not have given His only son. I would hope so. Again, I really like the LDS theory here. I think He already has, His son, Jesus Christ.Hope this helps! I am speaking for myself, not the SB's of the world.

There is no doubt in my mind that we are born into a fallen world. You can see sin's destruction everywhere...death and sickness, etc. Scripture tells us, like you stated, that ALL fall short of the glory of God. So, whether we are born a sinner, or become a sinner at the moment of our first transgression, I am not sure it really matters. There are denominations within mainline Christianity that debate this. For instance, we have friends who are members of the Church of Christ and they do not believe that we are born sinners. I do understand what you are saying about men having no choice but to sin and that negating accountability.

To the OP, Pray. Pray for wisdom and guidance. Get with some people close to you that are strong in the faith, ask for their guidance. Love your sister in a way that she knows you are there for her! Pray for her, and her unborn child, and her older child. I feel this thread is on a downward spiral to the whole "who has a right to judge" debate, and I am not taking part of that in this thread. I apologize for my part in its derailment. Blessings.

I must be doing a horrible job at communicating here, because I see much of how I feel (obviously not what you think I am saying) in your last paragraph (we do it by long suffering...). I will give an example from my own family. Hopefully, this will not be trampled on. For instance, my sister my sister thought she was pregnant. Did I scorn her? Nope! Did I tell her she was horrible? Nope! Did I love her and let her know I was there for her? YEP! Before this incident I had told her that premarital sex was not what God had planned for her. Did I bring that up? NOPE! But when I see my sister, whom I love GREATLY, I am not going to sit back and watch her mess her life up...I prayed, told her it was wrong, and then continued praying...didn't bring it up again. It is not a matter of "I am right and you are wrong." Or "You are horrible!" It is a matter of loving them, letting them know you care and are there for them...but at the same time loving them enough to let them know they are going down a path that brings pain. There is no way we can address every possibly scenario on this topic here. What I have in my mind is not what someone else has in their mind, etc.

Call her out? Yes, I would. I have done it with my own sister. I simply tell her "hey, what you are doing isn't right...it isn't going to make your life easier." Then, done, end of story. What is done is done. You know what I do then? Just like you, I LOVE HER! You do not turn a blind eye to sin, either. What does Paul say? A little leaven, leavens the whole loaf? I love my sister too much to sit by and play stupid when I know what she is doing will lead her down a path of pain. If "calling her out" and then loving the stuffing out of here is wrong...well, so be it. I think you really missed the heart of my post. You do love the stuffing out of them, someone has to support them...but at the same time, you don't condone their sin, it is fine line. Oh, I am not LDS.

I think there is a very fine line between being supportive and enabling. But, somewhere, it is there. If this were my sister, I would call her out in her sin, and let her know that the way she is living is not the way God designed and will bring pain into her life. Let her know that God will forgive her. Repentance is key. I think I would say my peace once, and leave it alone (the "preaching"). Then, I would pray for my sister, that the Spirit would soften her heart, convict her of sin, draw her to The Lord, etc. Ways you can support without enabling are taking your sister to the doctor, being her friend, listening to her, letting her know you still love her, possibly helping feed the baby so she can nap, etc. When she asks questions give her Godly advice. Make sure that you are living the gospel, and are right with The Lord. You cannot very well witness to someone when you are not living how you should. I would not drive her to her boyfriends, or watch the kids while she went to her boyfriends, etc. That is enabling.

bytor, As far as children, those who have never heard, etc., I don't know. Only God does. I know some people like to throw around an age where a person becomes accountable for their sin, but I believe it is different for every person. There comes a time where the Holy Spirit will draw a person to the truth, if a person rejects that...well, I am not sure, but I would not want to be that person. Romans 1:20 speaks about God being seen in His creation and says that "they are without excuse." For me, nature, the mountains, streams, children, etc. are a testimony that we didn't come from nothing. There wasn't some cosmic explosion one day that created life. To me, that is ridiculous. I think there is a blanket statement that can be made that you either go to Heaven or Hell, but it stops there. Only God knows our heart. Only the Holy Spirit can draw someone to faith in Christ, resulting in repentance. Does this help at all? A website I have used in the past is gotquestions.org It seems to be written from a conservative, evangelical perspective.

I just briefly checked out the Baptist Faith and Message and here are a few items of possible interest: This is regarding man. "Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love. Genesis 1:26-30; 2:5,7,18-22; 3; 9:6; Psalms 1; 8:3-6; 32:1-5; 51:5; Isaiah 6:5; Jeremiah 17:5; Matthew 16:26; Acts 17:26-31; Romans 1:19-32; 3:10-18,23; 5:6,12,19; 6:6; 7:14-25; 8:14-18,29; 1 Corinthians 1:21-31; 15:19,21-22; Ephesians 2:1-22; Colossians 1:21-22; 3:9-11." Here is what is says about salvation. "Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace. Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour. B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God. C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life. D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed. Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5."

I am glad I am not those other SB's...in the here and now, and also in eternity. You are fine. Many people assume that. I attend a SB church, but I serve Christ.

I have never personally dealt with this situation, but I can imagine how you feel. At this point, what's done is done. Your sister is pregnant. I would say that you should focus on supporting and encouraging your sister and the new baby. That does not mean that you support a sinful lifestyle. Support and encourage her in ways that encourage her to be a good mother, to live the Gospel, etc. Encourage her to make good future decisions in her life. Focusing on the past really will get us no where.

I don't say it, I will not even type the abbreviation. There are so many other things you can say that do not use God's name in vain, or are not inappropriate or crass.

I also generally read at night. I have a toddler so my days are filled with parenting her. Personally, I do not doubt the customs and rules of behavior set forth in the OT. I am just thankful that I did not live during that time. As to the Bible being the Word of God, much comes down to having faith that God has preserved His word. I am also reading through a book called "How We Got the Bible" that is very interesting. We must ask ourselves if God could have preserved His word? Of course! He is God! The same applies to the BoM, could God have preserved the BoM, and spoken to the alleged prophets, writers, therein? Of course He could have! Did He? The jury is still out for me, but I do not doubt His ability to do so. Pray. As cliche as it sounds. Ask for God to open your eyes to His truth.