InquisitiveSoul

Pseudo-doctrine can definetly chase or slow ones progress into the church. It slowed me down for many years as did the fact that many of the Missionaries I met were unable to seperate doctrine from speculation they had heard. Additionally, Elders who were completely unaware of polygamy and other issues from the past also slowed my progression. I had to do a lot of extra research to resolve the problems I had and I would suspect many investigators quit before they go so far. Even now there are areas I run across in old notes where I'm uncertain if it's offical doctrine or speculation based on comments an apostle made at some point in his life. I remember talking with one member about the last days and he continued to quote from a book written by a man who I believe was a Seminary teacher. I don't recall the name, but Ezra Taft Benson wrote the forward and to this good brother, the fact that President Benson wrote the forward made the book pure doctrine.

I love these questions. I always wonder where did it all begin? The answer of course, it always was, which makes me ask how could it always be if there was no beginning? It's a never ending circle and one we won't clearly understand in this life.

My BS is Business Administration and I've been working in this field for almost 20 years. I'm earn a base, plus some comission & bonus, but these days I'm not making much more than my base pay for my administrative work. I'm looking at going back to become a CPA and do some consulting as well. The original plan years ago was Law School, but I got married and ran out of gas, now I'm wishing I had stuck it out! I know one man who didn't finish law school til he was 52, so there is still hope for me if I want to give it a try. I always like to hear from people who went back and pulled it off. Going back is a challenge and knowing others have done it makes it seem more possible and real to me.

Has anyone quit their job and went back to school while supporting a family? How did it go? I've been contemplating a career change for some time as my income has fallen off over the past year with the struggling economy. I work too many hours to keep my job and go back to school currently, but I do have a "fall back" plan in mind so I can go back to school full time and get it done as quickly as possible. It will require a lot of sacrifice by my family as well for a couple of years, but in the long run I think I'll be in a much better place with my career and finances. I'm interested in hearing how it went for you if you have been in this position. Thanks everyone.

Do you have any proof of an affair? Emails? Cell phone call records/texts? I'm new, but if I was a Bishop or SP and saw this situation unfold, with one member vehemently denying the allegation, I'd have to see evidence. Without any evidence and the other party saying it never happened, it would be difficult to make a fair judgment. By the same measure, if the accusing party did have proof, I would guess the penalty will be far more harsh due to the continued attempts to deceive. Please note I'm not judging you or your story in anyway, only trying to see it through the eyes of the Judge or Church Leaders.

Justaname is making a great point. I'm not sure if it's coming across in the manner he'd like it to, as some of the responses seem to take offence rather than see the question for what it is. The Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't to be used for financial gain. While I don't see Church Leaders becoming wealthy from Deseret Book, there may be some who are making more than a nice living off of their art which is sold in the store. At what point does an artist's talent become filthy lucre? Are these artists or writers exploiting the Gospel for personal gain? We can only speculate as to what their motives are, but one would certainly hope their hearts are in the right place. If their attempts to make a living or become wealthy by painting pictures of Christ bother you, then I'd say don't buy. If you find their painting inspiring and want it in your home, then you have the choice to buy. There are distribution centers which sell scriptures and other materials for a fair and reasonable price. I bought some scriptures quite cheap, less than $10 if I remember right for a quad. As for Deseret Book, it's been said already that the leaders don't tell you to hurry in for their latest book. It's up to you if you want to buy Elder Holland's book of if you don't. I would guess the people who do buy a book from a church leader are doing so not only because he's a leader, but because they are able to relate to him on different level than other members do. Most people do have favorites and if these books are uplifting to these members then I think that's great. Profits made form Deseret Book are not going into President Monson's pocket, rather they remain with the Church who use this money to make further investments. The Church does have a business and real estate arm, while this does come as a surprise to many or maybe even offend some, capital is necessary for the Church to perform a wide range of functions, education, aid to those in need on a larger scale than Faster Offerings can provide, Missionary Funding, Church Defense (from law suits and more), building new Temples and Churches. There is a wide variety of needs beyond the means of tithing. Some take offense to the Church buying malls and property in down town Salt Lake. The down town area of Salt Lake is important to the Church. As Salt Lake grows, it's important to keep family friendly businesses around the Temple and other Church buildings. It's much easier to control the kind of neighbors you will have if you own the house next door. If the Prophet ever arrives to Conference wearing a Rolex and Armani while asking you to stop off at Deseret Book and buy his new book and posters after the meeting, then you will know something is wrong. If the Prophet begins charging for Conference appearences and offeres a meet and greet after for X amount of dollars, you know something is wrong.

Tithing seems to be somewhat of an intangible blessing. It's difficult to measure to blessings one receives from paying tithing, but if you are paying a full tithe, I'd suggest you continue as you'd rather not lose the blessings you are receiving.

My energy level is a lot lower than it used to be, but I've thought that was probably something that came with age. I do snore about half the time from what my wife says. I've never had a sleep study done which is what my wife thinks I should do as well Vanhin.

My wife and I have been having a discussion about sleep. My wife has noticed a pattern of me falling asleep since she has known me. When we were dating I'd regularly fall asleep while watching movies with her - I was also working 30 hours a week while working on 18 credits in college. At various times during our marriage I have worked 2 jobs and been sleep deprived, but even now with a "normal" schedule I still fall asleep if I sit for too long. I don't wake up during the night very often and typically sleep fine. On Sundays I do find myself more tired after church and sometimes fall asleep after church if I don't keep moving. Wife thinks I should visit the doctor. I don't fall asleep in the middle of activity like driving or walking, but I do feel like I fall asleep easier than most people I have known. I also have noticed my energy level seems to be the same no matter if I'm sleeping 5 hours or 8 hours. Anyone else recommend a visit to the doctor or have similar sleep habits?

From what I've read over the years, I don't believe there were a lot of men who could have led the Saints west and built up Utah the way Brigham Young did. As with any man, Brigham Young had his faults and was far from perfect, Oliver Cowdery or Sidney Rigdon may have made a better leader in a conventional sense, but very clearly Brigham Young was the best man to lead under the circumstances the church was in.

I've read allegations that Brigham Young Jr was living in New York during the time he was President of the 12 and was living a rather indulgent life style complete with morality and Word of Wisdom problems. Skippy makes the point that WOW wasn't always required which I hadn't taken into consideration. What I read came from a source most would consider Anti so I haven't posted any links. The Wiki article does shed some light onto Young Jr and give an explanation as to why Joseph F Smith jump over him in seniority. I find much of the Church History to be very interesting. Brigham Young Jr is an interesting figure to me and it seems a good deal of the story is missing. It also seems the story isn't one that most people are familiar with. Maybe it is more soap opera than history. Or perhaps it is an example of nepotism and shows Brigham Young Sr was prone to make mistakes as we all are.

Suzie, do you know if the process was changed to prevent Young Jr from becoming President of the Church? Other sources seem to suggest as much (let's just say he doesn't sound like a Temple Recommend Holder), however these are non LDS sources.

I understand Brigham Young Jr was President of the 12 around 1900, but was released as President even though he was called as an apostle before Joseph F Smith. I read a claim of Young Jr living a "jack" Mormon lifestyle and the other members of the 12 and First Presidency not wanting him to become President of the Church. I haven't been able to find a reliable source as to what took place, but it does seem clear Brigham Young Jr was President of the 12. Does anyone know what happened?

He was going on about faith again today. I pointed out if he knows it's easier to live with hope and faith in his life, doesn't that mean he used to have a testimony as opposed to his claim that he never had one? I don't expect to say anything to change his mind, rather I suspect he did believe instead of claiming he never believed. Moksha I like your post. It's an interesting thing faith, how one can have it one moment and lose it the next is hard to understand. He told me before I was baptized how church members hate his type and slander him by saying he broke a commandment and losing his testimony was the result. However, my impression from being around him is that he still believes but he's lashing out over something else, be it depression or frustration for the way things have turned out and pinning the blame on the gospel. I don't badger or nag, he brings religion up almost everyday so me thinks he's searching for something to grab hold of again.

The biggest thing for me was continued revelation. The argument of "The Heavens are sealed..." never made sense to me. Certainly when the people become more evil in their actions the prophets may go silent for a time, but the idea that there won't be any more revelation or scripture always struck me as false. Now if I could only figure out personal revelation...

I have a man who works with me who is a former member of the church. He served a Mission, attended BYU, and says he never believed. He claims he went along with it for 25+ years because of family pressure, but he did try to gain a testimony. He's read all of the Standard Works multiple times and held many callings during his time as a member. Sometimes he will make comments along the lines of "if I could read the Book of Mormon again and gain a testimony I would...if I could do A or B in order to believe I would because it's easier to live with hope and a testimony...." When he makes comments like this I think there maybe something I could say to help. Somewhere inside him, I think he does believe but he blocks out his faith with anger and bitterness. Anywho, what do you suggest? Is there anything you think I should say or do to help? Maybe this is a better fit under advice, so feel free to move it if you think so Mods. I've been wondering though, does the church have any plans or policies for dealing with former members? Surely they are discussed in leadership meetings somewhere along the line? It seems to me a member who served a Mission, graduated from BYU, and was married in the Temple deciding to leave would be a topic of discussion between the Bishop and Stake President.

This is true!

As I mentioned before, I've been reviewing my notes from the period when I was investigating the church. I made some notes regarding changes to Mormon Culture. One thing I've wondered about is soft drinks containing caffeine. I'm aware of the fact that there isn't any official doctrine prohibiting members from drinking Pepsi or Mt Dew. Certainly, one can argue you will enjoy better health if you stay away from products such as Pepsi, but it's a personal choice. When I was growing up and saw Mormon kids, it was a well known "fact" among non Mormons that our Mormon friends didn't drink Coke or Pepsi. When we would have them over we would always make sure we had some lemonade on hand. I can remember one kid who would buy a Coke after school and drink it on the bus before he arrived at his stop and might run into his parents who forbid caffeine. Fast forward 15 years, Elders at my house, I offer them a drink and frequently one asked for a Dr Pepper or a soft drink containing caffeine. What happened? What changed? It seems Mormons went from being peculiar in the sense that they abstained from caffeine even though it isn't specifically mentioned in the Word of Wisdom. There seems to be other areas where Mormon Culture has changed gradually. Rated R movies doesn't seem to be a big deal it was 20 years ago. Again you can argue ratings are subjective, but the emphasis is gone. Maybe the change comes from Mormon parents being less strict than in the past? What do you think?

I also wanted to mention, it's much like HiJolly mentioned, the Elders are honest in believing they know the most important parts of the gospel. From a spiritual standpoint, it is the fundamentals of Faith, Repentence, Baptism, and the Holy Ghost. As the Elders preach these things the spirit will be present and help with the conversion process, but in some situations, the knowledge of church history can become a stumbling block or a test of faith for an investigator. Instead of having Elders who deny or teach false ideas (had one tell me polygamy was started by Brigham Young because there were 5x more women than men in Utah) I think it would benefit the Missionaries to become more familiar with historical facts so they can set the record straight. There are a lot of misconceptions and false ideas being spread both accidently and intentionally.

I agree with your opinion on SLC. I'm sure the leaders don't see it as an issue at this time. It may never become a large issue, but some members have lost their testimonies and some of us investigators took much longer to come around because of the ignorance to the history by the very men who are charged with teaching the gospel. How can Missionaries resolve historical concerns when they are completely in the dark over historical issues? These issues held me back and I doubt I'm alone. I'd suggest members teach their children as they grow up so they aren't blindsided by some of these darker chapters in church history. Joseph Smith was far from perfect and sometimes it seems people get so caught up in the great things he did and forget he was still human and made very human mistakes.

You never know what the direction a thread is going to take. I expected 2 or 3 answers and thought it might die out rather quickly. Saguaro, you make a great point. During the years I spent researching and investigating the church, many of the former members I met, both online and in person, felt like they had been betrayed over history issues. I met one man who told me about his Mission and the times he argued with people about Joseph Smith and if he had practiced polygamy and other things he didn't know about the Prophet. I met 2 dozen Missionaries over the years and rarely did any of them know the way the Book of Mormon was translated. Many of these young men claimed to know everything there was to know about the church and church history. Ultimately, is a complete knowledge of church history necessary for exaltation? No, but I'd also say the Missionaries should be better informed and more knowledgeable about history as other posters have suggested. In a sense it's like being a parent, where do you want your kids to learn about sensitive issues, from you or from strangers? When an Anti Mormon source informs a member about sensitive church history, they are doing so with an agenda.

The simple answer: Foreordination = Agency Predestination = No Agency

When I was investigating the church, I ran across a number of people who were eager to tell me about the Adam-God Doctrine and claimed it was proof of Brigham Young being a fraud. These claims of course came from Anti Mormon people and have never bothered me. As I was going through some older notes I made while investigating, I saw a few notes on this idea and was reminded of it. Clearly the church doesn't teach this, but does anyone know the real story on Adam-God Doctrine? I suspect it is much like other issues Anti Mormons talk about where the remarks are taken out of context and ultimately twisted, but what's the LDS side?

I know a man in the Ward who used to drink, smoke, and party everyday for about 40 years. During this time he was an inactive member, but says he always paid his tithing and still believed the church was true. Later he after he retired, he says he had largely given up the party lifestyle because of his health and began to slowly come back to the church. It took him about a decade following his retirement, but he made it back and went through the Temple. He said the hardest part was the confession part, but because he hadn't been an active member and was only a Deacon, the Bishop and Stake President were easy on him. It made me wonder, what happens if a person is living life following the wrong path and dies before they are able to find the right path? I heard about another man who died in his 40's about 20 years ago who was in the wrong place at the wrong time when a nut was running around shooting random people. This poor guy who passed was a well known businessman in the area and had a wife and children, yet he was in the car with a prostitute at the time he was murdered. Perhaps if this man had been allowed to live a long life like the first man, he would have cleaned up his life and found the right path. Obviously we don't know if he would have changed or not, but is their any doctrine or any thoughts on what happens when people are judged? Does their time being shortened matter or are they judged simply on what they have done up to that point?

War has many different methods and definitions. I like the post that said "who says it's over?" The Cold War went on for decades and some say it never actually ended. Yet the two primary powers never fought a head to head battles we think of in a "traditional" war. The battles were often covert without a single shot being fired. Other times, such as during the 80's, the battle was fought through economics. Others have made some great points, blood shed is only one method to war. Look at the world around you, nearly the entire world is at war, yet only a few areas in the world see traditional battles at this time.