dahlia

I want one of my missionaries to do it. He is being promoted to head missionary or something like that, but he said he'd be back for my baptism. Another thought - I got both of the guys a little present - something suggested here on the board, but wonder if they would accept some money? Is that too gauche? Could I add it with the Christmas present? I'd actually like to give it a little before so they might have some extra cash for the holidays, but I don't know how this works. I am going to dinner with them on Sunday and could give them an envelope, but again, I don't want to embarrass them or seem rude. Regarding the program - black lights and 'If You Could Hie to Kolob' sung by the Smashing Pumpkins.

First I would have to tell the kid. I don't think he'll be hostile, but I bet he'll think I'm doing something that doesn't need to be done. I guess I'm going to have to tell him some time before the baptism, like maybe a 1/2 hr before. I would like him to join, of course, but I know he's not ready for anything like this. However, now he's met several young LDS grad students and has been invited to some guy sports stuff. Maybe some LDS will rub off on him. Well, at least he'll get his wish that I get out of the house more. Between church, service activities, and some social events I've been invited to, I won't be around the house as much as before. Hmmm, maybe he's been praying for this? Anyway, thanks to everyone for their kind words.

Well, gang, I met with the missionaries today and between my lessons, my reading before I met the missionaries, and having 2 really good conversations with my old buddy who has been LDS for 10 years now, I decided to get baptized. I think it will be in the next week or two, or after the new year. I'm in a ward near my university and we have a lot of married grad students who go back to their families, etc during the holidays, so I should do it before everyone leaves or after they come back. On the other hand, since I've been to a baptism and seen the white jumpsuit, maybe I should do it during Christmas break so no on will see me but the bishop and my baptizer. I went to a RS service event tonight and had a lot of fun - and met people who knew about me, which was scary. They had hosted the missionaries for dinner and I guess there are no secrets. :) It also turns out there are a lot of Mormons within a few blocks of me. Who knew?! OK, it's 1:30 a.m. and I need to get back to work (and everyone thinks professors have it easy), but I thought I'd pop in and tell you all the good news. Oh yes - THANK YOU everyone who answered my silly questions, treated me with respect, and made a place here for an investigator. You'll never know how much I appreciate it.

Maya - thank you for pointing me to the Meridian piece. I was kind of reading along,just curious, but not really feeling anything until I got to this, "Then, suddenly, it hit me. The trial for me is not having 100% knowledge. I’m the kind of person who wants ALL the information. I want to study everything out ahead of time. I would never go to a test unprepared, and what could be more important than eternity?" If that's not me, I don't know what is! I'm even a professor of information science! This is probably my biggest problem with converting - I want to know it all and perhaps that's not possible in this case. Sigh. Back to studying and learning. Thanks again for your post.

Huh? Assigned for romance? For home teaching? Also, aren't home teachers of the same sex? If the missionaries can't come in without someone else being there, how can home teachers come in? Pardon my ignorance on these points.

OK - I wanted to answer those who were kind enough to respond to my concerns, now I want to tell you something that happened to me that changed my thoughts on the Resurrection. When I was entering the RS meeting, a woman took me aside, I didn't even know her, and she asked had I seen, 'The Case for Christ'? I answered no, but that I would look at it. Well, I finally had a chance to see it last night. This, my friends, was what I'd been looking for and what my dear missionaries had been unable to provide. The video is by an atheist reporter whose wife was agnostic, but became Christian. As she became stronger in her faith, he almost lost her because he was such a self-righteous atheist jerk. As a well-known legal reporter for a famous paper, he was able to get interviews with many bible scholars. He wanted to learn the 'facts' of the Resurrection, just as he would scope out the facts for a news story. The kind of scholarly work presented (in a very comfortable and interesting way, I should add) was just what I was looking for. I learned I really don't know the Bible at all. When I learned what was really in it, learned that some 500 people had seen the risen Christ, that there is just so much proof that indeed, it wouldn't make sense if you didn't believe. The video shows the texts as the scholars speak - it's all right there! No one has to 'make up' a story, the story is given to us. As a Catholic, you learn about the persecution of the early Christians. What I didn't really understand, psychologically, was that when Christ died, there was no reason for the apostles to go out and preach, no reason for the martyrs to die - they all could have simply said they had a good thing while it lasted, now lets move on to the next messiah (and even I knew that there had been many false prophets before Christ). But they didn't. People don't go to their deaths, people don't preach under threat of death if they didn't believe that Christ had risen - and they could believe it because there are witness accounts. And what was important for me to learn, is that there are witness accounts, and accounts from those who had learned from witnesses, in addition to the apostle accounts, which as an adult, I figured they were just trying to keep their thing going. I realized that I know very little about the Bible. I'll be honest, when my missionaries and the visitors would quote Scripture, sometimes i wondered, 'why do you go to Scripture all the time? What else is there?' But there it is! Why would you quote from anything else? For the first time, I got an adult view of the time line of the writing of the Bible, the direct line of witnesses and those who heard witness accounts. There was even a section discussing that if the Bible had been written as a sales pitch, let's say,that the writers of the time would not have had women be the first to notice that the tomb was open due to women's low status at the time. Someone trying to sell a new religion would have had men make the discovery. Great stuff! I'm happy for all of you who can say 'just pray on it' and that helps you. But I must be a terrible person, because it wasn't enough for me. I needed more facts, and now I have them! I can't believe I'm saying this, but I was a little worried about doing Bible study, but now I am very excited because I have such an opportunity to learn what I've missed over the years. So, what I thought was a bit of a strange encounter, turned out to be just what I had been looking for. Strange how it works out that way sometimes, huh?

Ah yes. I am a 'friend of Dave R.' as it were, and you are right about his stance on tithing/supporting a charity even as you are climbing out of a financial mess. Darn. You know I didn't want to hear that, don't you? I will have to pull out my old Ramsey materials (back before he was famous and cute, too bad I didn't follow him back then!) and re-read what he says.

What a great example! I remember that part very well; you could see Harrison Ford/Indy really thinking whether he should step out or not - and then, the leap of faith! Just beautiful to me. I'm not sure yet that I can apply it to tithing , but I can apply it to other areas where my knowledge is not strong and where I should probably rely on faith instead of looking for every 'i' to be dotted and every 't' to be crossed.

Well, that was certainly not the impression I had! When the announcement to sign up was made, there wasn't a collective moan throughout the congregation, so I assumed people were OK with it because they were used to it and were all paying their 10%. :) So, what if you were temple worthy the previous year, but suffered a financial problem this year (as millions of Americans are) and couldn't tithe? Would you lose your temple card? There are people out there who are in dire straights. For example, blessings or not, if I lost a job at the level I have now and had to take any kind of work, I would have to think twice before giving 10% of the income of my new job at Walmart while trying to keep the roof over my head. I would think it irresponsible to tithe when your family is suffering.

Yes. I see your point! To be more clear, I should have said, 'I now believe Joseph Smith saw a vision.' That was a major hurdle for me. That the vision implies the Resurrection is a separate hurdle for me altogether. Yes, perhaps most people come to believe in the two together, I have to come at them one at a time. Though I have been Catholic, I left the church a long time ago over the issues of Original Sin, the Resurrection, and the role of women. So, I am not coming to the LDS from a perspective of a Christian who already believes in the risen Christ. Maybe not as much as an audit, but perhaps a rather grueling session as to why you aren't paying a full tithe. Yes, this is a good idea. The baptism date they suggested is still a few weeks away, perhaps they were working up to the questions. I have a list of them, but looked at them awhile ago, before even thinking about baptism. I will look at them again.

Greetings all (gird your loins, this is gonna be long) - Well, I have had a number of visits from the missionaries, gone to church twice, 2 lessons (sorry, I never get the name of these different classes right), and a relief society meeting. I have been reading everything like a fiend. I attended a convert baptism - which I admit was deep. I'm used to infant baptism with just the family. Here we had music, maybe 40 or more church members, the bishop, and of course, the kids. Personally, I thought herding all the kids to the front glass to see the baptism was an accident waiting to happen, but I digress... It was quite touching to see so many members of the church show up to support this one person. It was very welcoming. Anyway, I knew it was just a matter of time and today the missionaries said they thought I should get baptized and gave me a date. Well, we talked and I think at this point my main reason for not being baptized is that I don't think I can be a good Mormon because I still question tithing and the Resurrection. Obviously, the Resurrection is a huge issue and something that I will have to pray on. Today I told the missionaries that I know that Joseph Smith's vision is true, so who knows, maybe in another week I'll believe in the Resurrection, but tithing is a huge issue with me. Without going into details, let's just say things have been very difficult financially for the past few years and I am only just now crawling out of those problems. I have to say that things began to improve last spring, as I was reading about the LDS church on my own, and they just keep getting better. The problem is, now that things are better, I feel I have to build up my resources. I don't have anyone else's income to depend on; I need this money for retirement. Some new furniture and clothes would not be bad, either, as these things are getting pretty old. I'm not against giving an offering, but the tithing scares me. In church, they announced the sign up for settlement meetings with the bishop and I just got weirded out - how can someone else have control of my money? I have so much to make up for, I can't see giving hundreds of dollars a month to the church - plus a fasting offering! I know about the blessings of tithing, etc., but I just don't trust it enough to think that I'm going to be blessed by giving money away, money that I could use to bless my family. Should I get baptized with these feelings or not? I also understand that baptism doesn't represent the end of the process, and it may help me reach a decision, still, I'm really torn by this. I like going to church and the meetings. I want to continue that; I just don't think I'll ever be temple worthy because of this. Help!

Thanks everyone for the advice! I didn't even think about going to Conference, so that's a definite possibility. And as someone mentioned, with winter skiing in Utah, maybe I wouldn't get many travel discounts at that time of year. Going in April wouldn't be bad at all.

I have a 1 semester sabbatical next term and am contemplating visiting SLC. Would I be foolish to visit in the winter? Would it be better to wait until March or April? I don't mind a little cold or snow and would like to take advantage of any seasonal discounts in airfare and hotel by traveling in the winter, if it makes sense. Are there any reputable tours for SLC and is there anything outside of town that I should see? I'd probably be by myself and think that 3 days would be enough. Long enough? Too short? I'm pretty sure I won't be able to go in the Temple, so I don't need to plan extra time for that. Also, my father was an orphan. I have a few of his military records and know when and where he died. My parents were divorced and my mother remarried when I was young, so other than a few visits over the years, I never had the chance to learn much of his background from him. Do you think the genealogists there could help me find any background on him? As I understand it, his upbringing was rather informal - kind of 'here, you take him' as opposed to being raised in an orphanage. I'm sure there are many people who want to use the resources there - do I need to plan this way in advance? Thanks, Dahlia

Welcome from an investigator. I'm curious - why would Utah need missionaries? It reminds me of the old saying, 'carrying coals to Newcastle.'

This is very helpful, thank you. I think you're right, he either saw what he saw, had mental issues, or knowingly lied about it all. But why do that at the cost of your freedom and life? To me, the meeting was like a bunch of people had shown up to drop their kids at nursery school, but the teachers hadn't arrived yet. My son is unmarried, there aren't any grandkids, so we don't have a high noise level around our place. Teaching grad school, I'm just not used to little kids anymore. I get the whole 'circle of life' thing, but it's a bit much and I thought it bordered on disrespectful to the speakers. Since then, I've met with my missionaries and talked about that and they said that the speakers are used to it. I guess I'm used to religious services being a time for reflection and contemplation but it was hard to contemplate anything but the toddler in front of me!:)

Well, I finally went to church. I thought I was used to children in church (no nurseries in Catholic churches when I was growing up), but I guess I wasn't. There was so much noise from the little kids I felt bad for the speakers, although I guess they are used to it. We had an excellent speaker on gratitude. I forget his position, but I understand he rotates through the wards. I look forward to hearing him the next time he's around. The choir did a nice special selection. I decided to take the Sacrament and was a little amused that it was actually bread instead of a wafer or 'host' as Catholics call it - I didn't see the boys tearing up the bread at the front. I thought it was a little different and maybe not respectful at first, but then I thought that Jesus didn't have any specially made wafers at the Last Supper. Why shouldn't the people have the people's bread for the Sacrament? Because of my current physical limitations, I thought I wouldn't stay longer than the service, but surprised myself by being able to sit through the lesson class. I forget what this is called. We watched a video on the restored gospel which was pretty much a life of Joseph Smith up to where his father was baptized. I think a lot of people struggle with the whole Joseph Smith thing, but if you believe that saints, angels, and God visited people (and these kind of visitations are common in the Catholic church), then why not Joseph Smith? Anyway, the class wasn't as onerous as I thought it might be. Besides, who doesn't like a video instead of schoolwork? Then on Monday, I went to family night with my neighbors and the family of the law student who's been visiting with me. They both have little kids, which I'm not used to anymore, but it was pretty nice with singing, a lesson, general gabbing and a snack. As with most get-togethers, the men went off in one direction while we womenfolk and the babies sat in another. :) So, I think I've had a bit exposure to the 'real' Mormon experience. I will go to church again, though I really don't think I'm cut out for doing it every week. We'll see.

I don't know if I'll call him, but I did look at his site and a few other places he recommended. There is a black LDS site on FaceBook and a fun 'As Sistas in Zion' cite for black women. These folks have a whole 'nother perspective on the Church! "I Wonder if Heaven Got a Ghetto?" was pretty funny. I didn't know that if people were in the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms, they couldn't visit you in the Celestial Kingdom. The idea of being able to avoid in heaven the people you wanted to avoid here on earth is appealing.

I only know a bit about the MTC, but I think you are right. I asked my missionaries about the Labanites turning dark, which as a black person, I found offensive. I guess I find it offensive because, so far, I'm taking the Book of Mormon as a cultural story presenting a belief system, not as words dictated by a divine being. You can yell at me for that later. Considering the time in which the BOM was written, the feelings about blacks at the time, I find that having a story in which people's skins turn dark because they were acting sinfully as both a product of its time and off-putting to me today. I also know about the history of the black priesthood. I haven't told anyone I am investigating, partly because any knowledgeable black person I know is going to start in with the priesthood thing and how could I even think of being in such a church. As an educated person who took the time to read anti-Mormon sites, books on Mormon history (not anti-Mormon, but fairly written in presenting some of the less savory events in church history), as well as the pro-Mormon sites, I think I know some things that the young missionaries do not, or that they have glossed over as it may shake their faith. Maybe I will never be good enough for this church, but telling me about faith and to believe and that the spirit will guide you only goes so far. I am willing to take historical facts for what they are; I don't blame people living today for what people did in history, bound by the constraints of the events and culture surrounding them. There is a lot of darkness to the history of the Catholic Church, but most people don't blame you for the Inquisition if you are a Catholic today. However, if I announced that I was investigating the LDS, I can guarantee you that my family and colleagues are not going to ask about faith and the holy spirit, but will pull up past acts of the Church and ask how can I ignore all of that. I didn't leave my intellect at the door when I decided to investigate the Church and no one I know would expect me to. They would find it difficult to believe, knowing the 'facts' surrounding the LDS, that I could join this Church. I wouldn't say that I struggle with these issues. I know about them and put them in the past and don't pay them much mind. Maybe I should. I am willing to accept much about the Church, I think it offers people a lot that is good, but acceptance doesn't mean belief. Why can't I just say I accept that this is the history of the organization, that some of it stretches the imagination, but I'm not worried about that, I'm worried about living my life now, how I best do that, and a willingness to accept that being LDS might be the best way to go about being a good person. I don't think I have to believe everything to be good Mormon, but I think Mormons probably want me to believe everything.

This is an interesting conversation. Much of my work as an academic deals with information technology and society. I find the LDS use of info tech to be fascinating and often cruise the web to see what I can find. Sometimes I'm looking for substantive content, sometimes I'm just looking to see how the technology is used. I understand wanting the missionaries to concentrate on their mission, but I can also understand using technology for outreach. From what I've read here, I don't think it would bother me for the missionaries to have an online presence, though I may be biased because that's the way I and everyone I know (except my mother, and even she's on AOL) operate. Also, I see on YouTube videos of missionaries in the field. How can they take videos if they're not supposed to use the internet? As an investigator, and not knowing any Mormons, looking at missionaries' videos on YouTube was quite informative. I've kidded my missionaries about their being so busy and having to make appointments, but I've never really pressed them about what they do all day. I understand the preparation day, service, and praying and studying so they can teach, but that wouldn't take all their time. I live in a relatively small college town; there just can't be that many investigators for them to visit. What do these guys do all day? They have cell phones, which I see them check quite frequently. Also, what's with not using first names? Is this a safety concern? Something religious? They aren't consecrated clergy, so it wouldn't be like calling a priest by his first name. I'll be interested to see where this conversation goes.

I noticed a commercial for 'www.shelfreliance.com,' on BYU TV and spent some time checking them out. It looks like a good program; the calculator was especially helpful. With a small family (and maybe just me in another year or so), I don't see the need for big cans and think I can do most of my storage using regular cans from the store. I already do a 2 week food storage program this way. What I was surprised to see were the TVP products. As a vegan, the TVP products would come in quite handy for protein and flavor, and the prices seemed cheaper than what I've found at some of the online vegan stores. Has anyone tried the TVP products and know how they taste? Even though they're cheaper than I'm used to, I still don't want to spend $10 for yucky stuff.

I'm not sure I see an answer here. If you spend the day at home after church, at some point, people are going to want to eat. Who makes the food? Do people buy/make food on Saturday that they can just heat up on Sunday? You can say that other family members should help, but sometimes, due to youth or inability, they just can't be very helpful. btw- I've seen 'Baptists at Our Barbecue,' 'The Single Ward,' and 'Mobsters and Mormons.' Not high art, but nice family movies. I liked the reality of 'Mobsters and Mormons.' I didn't think the family would convert, but I was curious how they were going to adapt to living in their new environment. I spent 10 years in Philly, and though the characters might seem like stereotypes of people from Philly/South Jersey/NYC, we get stereotypes for a reason and the characters took me right back to my time in that part of the country. I sometimes still say 'yo' sometimes to get the class to come to attention.

From my readings, I understand that Mormons refrain from doing things on Sunday that would cause others not to be able to keep the sabbath. For example, you shouldn't go to a restaurant after church, correct? But if you don't want to make others work, then can you ask mom to work at home? Do Mormon wives make a big Sunday dinner? In the orthodox Jewish tradition, you made a meal on Friday before sundown that could be kept in a low oven all day Saturday. Mom wasn't expected to cook (probably because she was exhausted from all the sabbath preparation, cooking, cleaning the house, etc.). Reform Jews will often order out, go to a restaurant, or make a light meal. If others, especially non-Mormons, are already working in restaurants on the sabbath, and considering the economy and how local businesses can use our money, would it be wrong to go to a restaurant or order delivery on Sunday? Why should everyone else get to relax and mom is still in the kitchen? :) What are the other things that Mormons do or don't do on the Sabbath?

On more than one occasion, African-Americans have claimed they were the targets of hate crimes. Usually the communities are outraged and the family/person gets all kinds of things and financial help from the community to help them rebuild after the crime. Then comes the investigation and the discovery that they created the 'crime.' I lived in one place where we were just floored that such a thing could happen;knowing the community, it just didn't make sense. Sure enough, the victims were the perps. I don't know what the kids thought they would get out of burning their own church, but it doesn't' take much for the pack mentality to take over, then all bets are off.

Just 2 cents from an investigator. The last sentence of my weekly 'report' on meeting with missionaries was along the lines of 'you people sure are happy, aren't you?' While I find the missionaries will laugh if I make a joke, they are kind of serious, which I imagine comes with the territory. On the other hand, the church members they've brought with them have been bright and sparkly and very up beat. Even on this forum there are some great expressions of humor - which came as a bit of a surprise as I thought Mormons would be very sober on a Mormon site. I note that during the Conference talks, the speakers (I still don't know how to refer to the hierarchy, sorry) have a sense of humor - sometimes it's a silly old joke, sometimes it's a humorous self-depreciating story from their past. I was surprised that humor had any place in the conference talks, but then why not? Can't we learn as much from a good story well told as through solemn study of texts? "Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy" was in my readings for this week and I have to say I was impressed that we are to have joy in life - not miserably struggle and be sad and burdened by sin everyday. I'm not prone to meditating on scripture, but this one had me thinking for a long time. Why not be happy? Why not help others to be happy? There's nothing to lose and much to gain.

So, another meeting, this time at my place and with the missionaries (one was a newbie) joined by a young couple. It turns out the couple just bought the house behind me! The husband is a PhD student and we had a good chat about the uni, academic jobs, etc. Even though I've been here for a few years, I don't really know a lot of people outside of work, so it was nice to meet some neighbors. The wife works from home and has a toddler, so I'm sure she's happy to meet somebody new people as well. I'm home a lot, so it would be nice to know someone who has free time during the day to do things. They told me a lot about the local church - the type of people in the congregation, it's 'feel,' etc. Anyway, we discussed the Plan of Salvation, complete with diagram from the young missionary. I think they need to have 2 versions of their lessons. It's not like I never read the Bible, or don't know biblical history. I think it's one thing to talk to someone who's completely unfamiliar with basic Christianity and the bible and someone who attended parochial school for 12 yrs and then had college level work in comparative religion. I sat there because I figured this is how they learned how to present the material, but it was a little elementary. I'm not sure how to address this in the future. I wanted to tell them to 'move on, I know that part,' but I know sometimes people have problems if they can't make the presentation the way the planned it. I'd done a lot of reading about Mormonism in the academic and popular press before I met the missionaries and would like to get into some intellectually deeper discussions, but I feel trapped listening to stuff that sounds like Sunday school for the kids. Don't get me wrong, I think they are nice guys and they are doing their best, but I'd also like something more. Plus, what can I say - they are like young college guys to me - I want to make them dinner and make a plate for them to take back home. : ) Still, it was very pleasant - the young couple had both been missionaries and they sure knew their scripture! My son came home in time to meet them, which I think he needed to do so he could see what kind of people his mom's been hanging around with. So, that's my report for this week. I'd just like to add that you folks sure are happy, aren't you? : )