Whynot

Most people don't think for themselves because they are mentally lazy and it's easier to side with those you like or respect than to forge the pathway to return to the truth when most would rather hear what makes them feel comfortable - it's human nature. But Jesus wants us to become all we were created to be. Jesus never taught a feel good doctrine. His message divides spiritual light from spiritual darkness - that's the nature of what He taught. Jesus said if we don't believe Moses, we can't believe Him either. One has to be firmly based on what Jesus taught if they belong to Him. He came to call everyone to repent and do the will of God because the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Those who are of God will hear Him and follow Him. That 'Prophet' spoken of by Moses and Peter (Acts 3:22,23) is the Living Prophet, Jesus Christ. So the issue is to abide in His teachings given to the disciples when preaching the message of God in His earthly ministry, as well as the further revelation from heaven about those things which are outlined there. Have you carefully considered if you are abiding in everything He taught? One Disciple to Another If you do what He said you will be His disciple indeed. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. It's the same for everyone - His words are true, and He gave those original disciples the eternally extant words of the Father to His children. Those who are His will hear, those who are not His cannot accept them or do them. Those of the light will come to the light that they may see their deeds are done in God. Those not of the Father will not come to the light of His word because they can't face the fact of their darkness, but will seek their own kind to follow. Jesus said His words were imperishable by any means. Do you believe Him?

John 14:23,24; "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words, and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me." . Jesus gave hundreds of teachings, and each has important lessons in our discipleship to Him. We are not to be hearers only, but doers of His word. Surely Jesus came to manifest the righteousness and truth of God so that we have reason and hope in our faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. In Micah 6:7,8 we are told: "Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?" Surely Jesus came to show us exactly what these things mean: to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with our God and our fellow man. We can have emotional love towards the Lord, but we also need to show our love by our actions of keeping His words - after all, love is a verb:-)

The Spirit works to draw us to Christ or convicts us if we reject His gospel, so in that sense I can see critical action of the Spirit prior to receiving the Lord. After we are baptized the presence of the Spirit is undeniable. And He still lets us know when we stray, but I don't think He leaves us with each stumble, but pressures us to repent and make things right, so long as we don't keep rejecting His direction to us and then leave us without conviction of our errors. I thought LDS believed the same thing about baptism as the Church of Christ, as many early LDS were in the same fellowship as the 'Campbellites', which take a very literal view of Acts 2:38, that it is a matter of the promise of God to all generations to come since then, and that it is for the forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit. I've heard Evangelicals say baptism is what one does as a result of being forgiven and having been given the gift of the Holy Spirit - a matter of what 'eis' means - because of - or - for. And that the record in Acts implies it is God who adds to the Church those who are being saved (those who were baptized), which implies the role is in heaven, and this relates to the 'book of life' spoken of in other Scriptures. Church of Christ will not recognize anyone as a member who has not been baptized for the forgiveness of sins and such that is not in complete accord with the promise of God that Peter gave. Am I misunderstanding something? Thanks!

Regarding the covenant and what Jesus said, the most complete record is in the gospel accounts, and He said the covenant was His blood and body and the Sacrament was a time to remember Him and what has been done for us - as a memorial to honor His giving His life blood and the abuse and scourgings prior to the cross. Passover was a memorial to the time when God freed Israel from bondage to Egypt, as we are freed from bondage to sin, and called to a new life in abiding in the Lord and His word and His example. I'm trying to digest the quote above. The simple reading seems to say LDS believe they have the Spirit before they are baptized? and that they believe baptism is into their Church - as some protestant denominations also believe? Please correct me if wrong.

The new AENT (Aramaic English New Testament) is really a blessing as a double check for the Scriptures handed down through Jerome and the RCC Greek texts, as the Lord and His disciples (apostles) spoke Aramaic, and a more direct translation into English is more faithful to what was actually said. As the saying goes, 'as much as it has been translated correctly', is fairly clear with the AENT. The AENT says that Jesus gives authority to those who believe in Him and abide in His word to become sons of God. Jesus also said that unless we take up our own staff of authority and leadership and follow Him that we are not worthy of Him. Now does that sound familiar? As the Lord said, when we see Him (Jesus) we have seen the Father, as Jesus is the human representation/likeness of God - but the matter is known by the spirit, because God is Spirit and the source of all that has been created, and Revelation also re tells that only God is to be worshiped, even by the other gods (el's). The AENT has a number of names that God and Jesus are called, as well as the angels are more clearly identified as 'messengers' of God. John 1:1-5; In the beginning was the Miltha. And that Miltha was with Elohim. And Elohim was that Miltha. This was with Elohim in the beginning. Everything existed through His hands, and without Him, not even one thing existed of the things which have existed. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.And that light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it." another interesting quote is Matt. 5:33; Again you have heard that it has been said to those before that you should not lie in your oath. But complete your oath to Master YHWH." Another place the Holy Spirit is spoken of as the Redeemer... Revelation 1:8,9 says: "I am Alp, also Taw," says the Master YHWH, Elohim: who is, and was, and is to come, the omnipotent." I Yochanan, your brother and partaker with you in the affliction and suffering that are in Y'shua the Mashiyach, was in the island called Patmos because of the Word of Elohim and because of the testimony of Y'shua the Mashiyach. I was in the Spirit on the day of our Master YHWH; and I heard behind me a great voice; as of a shofar, which said;...." I don't think the new translation is friendly to the Trinity doctrine. so much to check out.... it was much simpler from the Greek:-), but not as good:-)

Perhaps this would be better said as another thread topic, but I've come to see and believe with all my heart that the LDS book, Gospel Principles, should have more references to the Bible than it does, and specifically references to what the record says that Jesus actually taught. If the Church is about Jesus and the gospel of Jesus Christ, they should give references to His doctrine/teachings to support beliefs to those who are investigators. Most investigators are not familiar with the Book of Mormon, but are more accepting and familiar with the Bible. The primary difference between the LDS Church and the rest of the denominations or orthodox Churches is that faith requires faithfulness and doing the will of God - not merely professing a confession of faith or such things as some believe true that are nothing but misrepresentations or twisting what Paul said. Truth is centered in and from the Lord Jesus Christ. That the Bible has suffered mistranslation problems is evident, even in the KJV or NKJV or NIV or ASV. I would strongly recommend the Aramaic English New Testament by Netzari Press LLC to any Christian who wants to know what was originally said by the Lord and recorded by the disciples. The more I read it the more I'm convinced that the Greek and Latin texts promoted by the RCC have put a hedge around some issues of the complete truth as Jesus and His disciples gave them to us in their native tongue.

My comment had to do with your comment about Romans 1." Besides all that...how many of us are truly well enough versed in any particular science to either reject outright or pronounce as ordained any particular religion. Ultimately, Romans 1 suggests that nature itself proclaims that God is. If Paul is right, then we can indeed expect to find him, if we open our hearts. And, if we do find him, he will surely lead us where we need to go." If nature itself were the power and knowledge required to find Him and know His will and get us on the pathway to be in the 'Set Apart People' of God, then one might wonder where all the Churches were when Columbus came to the new world. Fact is that faith follows preaching and proclaiming the word of God and that there is a true gospel - the gospel as preached by Jesus Christ and the original disciples. I marvel that so many think they are going to turn atheists into Christians by arguing about creation/evolution. Why not teach what Jesus taught and make disciples of Him who are called to Him by His words from the Father? That seems to be a mode of operation and focus that would be true to the outline Jesus gave for the game-plan of taking the gospel to the world. (great commission at the end of Matthew)

There is good evidence that Jesus was conceived on Christmas, which would place His birthday in late September or early October. This is based upon the timing of John the Baptist's father being told by the angel that he would have a son. Then the days he was serving in the temple, when those days ended, then how long it took him to walk home. Then when his wife was about six months pregnant Mary visited her and she had already become pregnant before her visit. I'd rather base my belief on some scriptural reasons than someone declaring something that just doesn't fit that well with the evidence. Does it really matter? Indirectly it does.

I don't think this was taught by the Lord. He specifically said we can know if what He taught was from God that we could know by doing what He taught. This provides the most powerful witness man can attain - the confirmation of God to the teachings of Jesus Christ as being directly from the Father. To base our faith on a lessor witness - well, it's just that - a lessor witness. "If you abide in My words, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." I've found these to be true, but it did feel a bit weird to take a teaching of Jesus and specifically keep it for a while - solely based upon His word, because He said so, but in no time at all I understood and have been growing by His words ever since!:-)

At the beginning of the ministry Jesus commanded the disciples to go to the Jews only, but at the end His commandment was to go to the ends of the earth 'Go ye unto all the world' and that they were His chosen witnesses of what the gospel He preached was and that the Holy Spirit would enable them to remember everything He had taught them. So I largely agree with your remarks, but do feel a need to clarify that Jesus told them to go to the Gentiles as well. As you mention, His teachings are beyond the four gospels, and an example of this was His telling Peter via vision to take the gospel to the Gentiles, as what God had declared to be clean was clean and Peter was not to judge the command of God. I wish more Evangelicals would realize His further epistles in Revelation that prove without a doubt that salvation is not found when we don't abide in whatever He commanded - and the book ends about being judged by our works - how odd that they teach against LDS for thinking what we do do matters. This just shows too much about what and who they believe - unfortunately.

Years ago I used to frequent a particular message board that relied heavily on F.A.I.R. to support the LDS Church. Perhaps some materials are good, but others may be less convincing to someone who is not a member. The same could be said for any apologetic site that approaches the subject of Jesus Christ from a particular viewpoint. When I reviewed some of the material it was not nearly as convincing or authoritative as I've found in the teachings of the Lord Jesus Himself - and this is said in regard to both LDS and non-LDS sites that are about LDS or their own Church. If the LDS Church does indeed preach and teach Jesus Christ - more power to them, as more people need to hear what Jesus taught that they be convinced to become His disciple based upon what He taught, and that discipleship first calls for being baptized into His name for the reasons of the very promise of God, as recorded by Peter, and continual followup in discipleship to whatever He taught as a life long experience. Going through all the commandments and doctrines of the Lord, we can see that in the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7) that He made a point about specifically keeping them specifically that He had just given. Because of this I find it particularly important to hear and do those teachings recorded by Matthew instead of the Book of Mormon account, which is less than the other account. I believe all His words are most important. 7:21-26 (from the Aramaic English New Testament by Netzari Press LLC "It will not be that just anyone who says to me "My master, my master!" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, "My master, my master! By your name have we not prophesied? And by your name have we cast out demons? And by your name have we done many miracles?" And then I will profess to them that from everlasting, I have not known you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity! Anyone, therefore, who hears my words, these, and does them, will be likened to a wise man who built his house upon a stone. And descended the rain, and came the rivers, and blew the winds, and they beat on the house and it did not fall, for its foundation was laid upon a stone. And anyone who hears my words, these, and does them not, will be likened to a foolish man that built his house upon sand. And descended the rain, and came the rivers, and blew the winds, and they beat on the house and it fell, and its fall was great." So if you prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name, and performed miracles in His name, even that proves not a wink that you are right in His eyes. Each of us will be judged as individuals, so I'd rather base my faith and life upon what Jesus said than what anyone else claims to be the truth, since we have the words of the Lord in the Bible - do we need them in another book if that other book doesn't give us the whole, or best, account of them? Each takes inventory with their budget and money to make sure the money is in the bank to purchase what they need or want. Why would we do less with the words of Jesus?

I hear you Deborah. My web site was largely started as an accounting in prep of LDS accounting of the teachings of Jesus in the BOM vs Bible. What I discovered was the greatest thing possible - that discipleship and doing what Jesus told us is the gospel message. And how many Baptists or other evangelical branches teach it's just inviting Jesus into your heart and not real action is necessary? No, the truth that Jesus gave matters. Keeping His commandments - in fact, whatever He taught - is our part of the gospel, that we grow to be more like Him by faith in hearing and obedience to Him as our Lord and Savior and King - thereby we are His 'mother, brother and sister' when we seek to do the will of God - not just hear it:-)

This is what my understanding is as well, but I have met some LDS who take the matter to the point to say that 'if God does not make them a God as He is that there are going to be a lot of people die', which I personally found somewhat alarming and fanatical. I know enough not to accuse all LDS of this belief because it was expressed by one man, but it does cause me to wonder if the LDS Church needs to clarify the belief as you stated above. Becoming 'like' Him was taught by the Lord as very specific attitudes towards those who accuse us or such things and He calls us to do good, continue in love towards those who don't love us, and to pray for our enemies - things such as this - that we are called to higher levels of faith, life, love and grace towards others than the old 'tooth for a tooth' attitude. Jesus calls us to spiritual maturity to be like the Father in that way. I don't think He ever indicated otherwise, except about sitting with Him on His throne, which doesn't seem to indicate creation of our own worlds that we can be 'Gods' over.

Yes,"And to him that is victorious, to him will I give to sit with me on my throne, even as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on His throne." And we see in several places that victorious is found to be those who have the testimony of Jesus and keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ. That's the highest calling there can be - to follow Him in whatsoever He told us, and tells us to this very day in His words of eternal life. However, we also see in Revelation that there is only one God and none other is to be worshiped. So to rule with the Lord on His throne must in some way be different that being what some think LDS teach. I've met LDS who believe they will also be a God as the Father is, and I've met LDS that absolutely don't believe that, which makes me wonder why the LDS Church doesn't distance itself from things that others are offended by in light of many other Scriptures. How can we sit with Him on His throne unless we are faithful in all things Jesus said?

In one sense we are, in that God has made us all, but then in another sense there is a called out from the masses to a select group which is called of God through the Son to become sons of God, and Jesus said this was based in the authority He gives those who believe in His name. And belief not being a mere belief, but belief is found in the witness of God found in doing what the Lord said... as best we can - all of it.

My main source of advice for life comes from the Lord and His word. We all need encouragement from time to time, and one has to have the heart to be perceptive. We who believe in the name of the Lord have been given authority to become sons of God. As such, I don't want to exclude others within that context.

Well, that may be per your organizational beliefs, but that hasn't been my experience. I think they are highly gifted and perceptive.

Although not a member, my wife is, and we've been to our Bishops over the years and my experience has always been a good one. Reading your post it seems you are frustrated with the lack of compassion shown. Maybe both of you were having a less than perfect day. Bishops change every few years, but that doesn't help how you feel right now. It's a matter of how you handle the matter in your heart. The Bishop isn't the Lord, although we all are in dire need to be more like Him. Jesus had compassion when others didn't, and endured criticism of others that was completely unjust and not just a lop-sided opinion. One of the apostles said if a man will not work, neither let him eat. That's a matter of the will, not the job market. That you are trying is your part, that you accept a job offered is also good and shows willingness to make due with where you were able to get hired. I can understand your points. If you really are troubled over this, maybe you could get a second opinion and express your concern to the high councelman or stake president if the matter is weighing on your heart and making things harder for your family? Just a couple of thoughts. Hang in there. Rather than being anxious about the matter it's always good to take it to the Lord in prayer. He wants to hear from us all the time.

Since God put man in the garden to tend it and provide for them and gave them dominion over the whole earth and God also met with Adam daily, I'm sure God was conversing with Adam about how to do things, what was good and true, and leading Adam in foundational truths. So Adam was in the process of only learning good. Adam had knowledge of good. It was his disbelief of what God told him that was the issue, that Adam and Eve chose to disbelieve God. God also said, 'Hear Him', regarding the Lord. If Jesus is our Lord we should be actively be His disciples and learn of Him and from Him. Also remember that Jesus affirmed that we need to believe the words of Moses, and the Scriptures of Jesus day was the Septuigent (pretty much the same we have in our KJV OT)

If we want to know what the commandments are we can truly be disciples of Jesus Christ. His 'test' for knowing the truth of what He taught was to be found in doing what He said, that when one does that one knows - the implication being a personal testimony from the Father to the individual disciple. Although Jesus taught many things in parables, which He interpreted to the disciples at that time, the commandments of the Lord are found sprinkled throughout the gospel texts, as well as through the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Indeed, we are not to add to or take away from the commandments of God, and this is also true of the teachings of Jesus because Jesus said His teachings were not His own, but they are the words/teachings that His Father gave Him to give to us. Jesus also said for no man to be called 'rabbi', because He is our Teacher and we are all brethren. I do agree that the NT record clearly lists prophets in the Church, that the office was not done away with - so long as the Church needs to be warned about a near event or some such matter.

I agree that Jesus spoke beyond the four gospel accounts. His teachings go into Acts as well, and there are a few things in the other books, then there is a large amount of teachings and commandments in Revelation. In fact, the teachings of Jesus in Revelation largely refute the false gospel taught by many modern liberal churches. When I made my account of His teachings it surprized me so much that I came up with my web site because of being convinced and convicted to the truth Jesus taught and realizing that there isn't a Church I know of on earth that sees the facts as He gave them. LDS honor the principle in your Sacrament prayer, and it's refreshing to see that someone sees the need - I just want to point out that there is much more in the records of the Bible that need to be part of our life as a disciple of the Jesus Christ. It seems very fitting that LDS would re investigate the depth of His teachings in the Bible as well, rather than deny them as most do. Just sharing what I've found - one disciple to another - that's where I got my web page name. One Disciple to Another If I'm wrong, it should be fairly simple to refute. It's either there or it isn't! Thanks for sharing!

Whynot: I used the New King James version when doing my study. The KJV is a translation, and a specific version of a translation and has changed a number of times since it was first translated. As I've heard many LDS say, they believe the Bible as correctly translated, so I don't expect you believe any differently than that. Many people prefer the KJV. Luke 21:33 says (KJV) "Heaven and earth shall pass awy; but My words shall not pass away." If Jesus gave them, the apostles recorded them, then we have those doctrines and commandments of the Lord that were spoken of in the great commission, in the sermon on the mount, as well as the account in Acts of the start of the Church at Pentecost and the promise of God to all generations to come, as well as the careful note to quote Moses regarding Jesus in Acts 3:22,23. I'm actually happy to know that LDS believe we are to keep His commandments. Most Christains think if you believe that you've fallen from grace, as they understand it, but they must not put much value on the words of the Lord vs what they think Paul taught in a couple of places. I'm just saying there is a lot more to abiding in the words of the Lord than I've understood the LDS to say. (word of wisdom, etc.) We can even find commands of Jesus in Revelation - such as the command to persevere. There we find Jesus judging by works - which most protestants don't want to acknowledge either.

Whynot: Well, when I read it and the record of Jesus speaking to the people was specifically noted, there may have been 70 or 80 points of doctrine that could be categorized as a 'command', but there were also some significant shifts. The reason I quoted so much of what Jesus said about what He taught and the need to abide in His word is that is the primary difference between the book of Mormon and the Bible. The Book of Mormon has Jesus preaching about half the sermon on the mount and then telling the people to listen to their prophets/apostles. Some teachings Jesus was recorded in the Bible as preaching to everyone, in the book of Mormon He only spoke to the apostles. I thought that was odd. I agree with most everything you said though. Thanks for your response!

The apostles wrote of the gospel as being delivered 'once for all', and we know from John the baptist that Jesus alone came to testify the very words of God from heaven. Jesus also identified that the prophets were until John the baptist, and from then on the kingdom of God is preached and that the least in the kingdom of God is greater than the greatest of the prophets. That is what Jesus said. Jesus also said His words are living and able to make us clean. He also said they were eternal and imperishable. Jesus said He is to be our Teacher and that all of us are but brethren. Jesus commanded making disciples of Him, baptizing them, and teaching them to oberserve whatever He had commanded them (the eyewitness disciples who became apostles). They recorded His words from Matthew through Revelation. Did Jesus say we are to follow whatever He said, and not be hearers only, but also doers of His word? That's what He said from the beginning of preaching the doctrine of God - do whatsoever He said. This is reaffirmed in John 15-17, as well as Acts 3:22,23. That millions of 'christians' ignore the teachings of the Son of God for desire to hear lessor things from anyone else is a matter of people seeking the light of the Lord, or deliberately noting facing up to the truth He gave, or not taking the time to really consider and ponder the words of eternal life that Jesus spoke. Only God is able to really open a persons eyes to His will, but a person has to really want to know what God wants - if he seeks, he will find it.