Bensalem

You have presented a great perspective, which I have not heard before; the Catholic idea that this life is a punishment imposed on us beyond our freedom to choice otherwise. The LDS believe that this life is a blessing toward attaining a higher state of being in the resurrection, and that it was our choice to participate with a full understanding of the promise that God would provide a Savoir toward that goal. God didn't force Lucifer and His clan to take up the human form. They remain as spirits and rebellious angles. So why would He force good angels to come to earth against their will. They simply remain as good angels in a spirit existence. I think this view can be summed up in the LDS doctrine of progression (mostly lacking in the other churches). Revelation from our prophets have clarified the vision of three Kingdoms or Glories spoken of by the apostles in the NT. Namely, the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms, aka. the glory of the sun, moon, and stars. It requires no great leap of faith to see each kingdom or glory as the three estates of the Resurrection (afterlife), Mortality (present life), and Spirituality (premortal life). Thanks for your insight.

This is a great revelation to the world. It removes the false teaching that we are born in sin (Original Sin). It corrects the false practice of infant baptism as required by Catholic, Orthodox, and some Protestant churches. It removes the false concept of limbo. This Article of Faith alone should convert anyone who has ever held a baby in their arms or witnessed the unique innocence in their eyes, as compared to the doctrine of damnation professed by any church that says otherwise. [To be clear, I use the term damnation to describe the teaching of other churches that would block an unbaptized child from entering into the presence of God.] Not to mention the fact that the NT never speaks of the need to baptize infants. Jesus taught of a baptism of repentance, not of original sin; repentance requires a conscience choice and the ability to recognize ones own sinfulness. Wake up and smell the truth people. Correct doctrine must abide in His one true Church. There can only be one; and the LDS Church is the fulfillment of the promised Restoration.

I'm not a lawyer but it could be argued that the Jews had a right to call for his death, after all, Jesus did say..."before Abraham was, I Am (meaning , YAHWEH)". As I understand it, it was against the law to utter His name. I too empathize with your comments about the murders brought about at the hands of "Christians". I had in mind the histories of murderous riots and persecutions of Jews at presentations of Passion plays when I raised my questions in the OP. I also remember the words of those who cried for his death recorded in the gospel: "May his blood be upon us and our children." You could look at this statement in two. One they are taking responsibility for their actions or two they are protecting themselves since his blood saves. The elders of Jesus' time said, "...it is better that one man die than an enter nation (Israel) perish." I like to think that some understood that what they were doing was fulfillment of scripture.

A biblical generation is longer than the time span of human life. We are all still of Adam's generation as God's creation. We are still of Noah's generation as people born into the covenant of accountability (Genesis 9:5). Muslims, Jews, and Christians are of Abraham's generation and the saints of Jesus' first church, as well as, those of the LDS church are of Jacob's (Israel's) generation. I look at generations as paralleling dispensations of the word of God. The dispensation that began with Joseph Smith will live to the end times. The LDS church represents Christ’s generation. When the world is converted to Christ and His Church there will be amble time to see the prophecy you mention fulfilled. Christ said all which was spoken in His name will be fulfilled. I believe Him; eternity has no generational constraints.

I think it can only be a resurrected Jerusalem; meaning, an act of God is necessary. Man cannot give Him the Jerusalem He desires. Presently there are three faiths struggling for their ideas about what Jerusalem should be. I don't think it will be decided until the time promised when weapons will be smelted to form plow-shears. Only after the great tribulation when Christ shows Himself triumphant will Jerusalem in the Middle-East live in a converted world.

As Rameumptom pointed out, the scriptures tell us that "...the word of God shall come out of Jerusalem." For me this means that Jerusalem is where the word of God comes out of...so, the LDS church is the New Jerusalem since we have and speak the word of God in our prophets, apostles, and priest. When the LDS church, in its holy Melchizedek priesthood, governs the City of Jerusalem in the Middle East, then the physical Jerusalem well be united with the spiritual Jerusalem in fulfillment of scripture. Even as in the resurrection when the physical body is united again with the spiritual body, Jerusalem will be made whole in Christ. I don't believe that the "offering in righteousness" foretold of the Jewish priesthood (Levitical/Aaronic) will be the return to animal sacrifice in a temple built by the Jewish state. The offering that would be most righteous in the sight of God would be an offering of humility toward the higher authority of the Melchizedek priesthood in the LDS church. This would be comparable to the humility shown by their father Abraham when he bent his knee and bowed his head at the hands of Melchizedek who blessed him. Likewise, the Jewish people need to bow before the authority which is greater than theirs.

Certainly, the covenants we maintain and the word of God we honor will be either our blessing or our condemnation. This is true for all the faithful whatever stick they hold their faith up against. My faith remains that the LDS church is the threshold of Israel's birthright, which continues in Joseph and his sons Ephraim and Manasseh. My faith remains in a Jerusalem of twelve gates and that much will be learned as to who shall pass through each gate. My faith remains in one Israel firmly situated in Christ and His Church.

I'm only paraphrasing from LDS literature, Gospel Principles: Chapter 46, page 271. I know that God and Christ will judge righteously in His saints. And we shall be judged by our words, as well as our works; that is why I write conservatively and in accordance with His word. The hope for Israel which I share is His hope also; namely, that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be converted to Christ, the Holy One of Israel.

I too trust in Almighty God; I too was born of the word of God forged by the faithful who inhabited the land in former times. However, my guarantees on Israel do not rest with this declaration. Israel has been declared by God and Christ to be those whose faith brings them to the waters of baptism in the LDS Church. The personal declaration of my roots in Israel came in my patriarchal blessing, which placed me at the “lions of Ephraim”. This in fulfillment of the promised that He would provide a Seer for the souls of the lost birthright: “These people searched in their ancestral registers but could not be located in them, so they were excluded from the priesthood as unclean, and His Excellency forbade them to eat the sacred foods until a priest could be found for the Urim and Thummim” (Nehemiah 7:64-65). This promise was fulfilled in the prophet Joseph Smith and continues today through the priesthood in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Book of Mormon prophet Moroni, the Son of Mormon, puts it this way… “And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled” (Moroni 10:31). Such are the declarations of our Lord.

Thank you for posting the entire prayer of the apostle and prophet in the LDS church who consecrated the land with the authority of the Holy Melchizedek priesthood for the gathering of Israel in the name of Jesus Christ. As I said in an earlier post: Without the acknowledgement of this consecration as being the act of God that fulfills scripture, the Jewish people have a nation built by men, organized by mandate, and called together by popular media. When the land is opened up to the saints and the word of God which they preach and souls are converted, I will know the people of Israel by their obedience.

My opening post consisted of three questions (repeated below): I don't see the Antisemitism. Throughout the post I have been arguing that the Jewish people should be held blameless in the death of Jesus Christ since his death was in fulfillment of scripture. Likewise, the concept of one Israel is also in fulfillment of scripture. Hence my stance on identifying one Israel in the LDS church and not recognizing the other nation calling itself Israel but lacking the spirit to see the fulfillment of the promises in Christ. For the record, I love the Jewish people as much as God does. I love them so much as to point their faith toward fulfillment in God and Christ and away from fulfillment in statehood through the acts of men. The LORD has shown His arm and it leads to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are a nation of prophets and apostles who own the truth and the judgement of the world.

What about those who spiritually kill Christ? How will they be judged? The NT teaches that Christ is the Word. The Catholic church and most Christian denominations teach that the Book of Revelation is the last word. Isn't this a lance into the side of Christ?

Sure, in a secular sense Mr. Sam is at fault and would be held accountable by the law of the land, but in God's eyes Mr. Sam is held blameless. How do you know that God did not command Mr. Sam to throw the cigarette onto Mr. Doe's bushes in fulfillment of prophecy? Perhaps he was "constrained by the Spirit" that he should. Even so, he could still be held accountable by faithless men who do not believe that God fulfills his word.

Was he a prophet of God?

I don't deny the scriptures on this matter. I only doubt that the Israel of the Middle East is the Israel which God organized. You say that the LDS church is the spiritual Israel, but you point to the Middle East as the physical Israel. The spirit of Israel is not separate from its physical reality any more than my spirit is separate from my physical body. The LDS church is also the physical Israel.

Yes, and when they see the marks in His hands they will be converted. They will be baptized and join the Church and hence be included in Christ and in His Israel. But if they are not converted they will not enter into the Celestial kingdom of which Israel is a part in exaltation. Their denial and stubbornness will gain them access to the Telestial kingdom, which glory is limited to that of the Holy Ghost. I don't believe the scriptures are nuanced about Israel. The word of God is clear that the LDS church is the family of Israel.

God did not promise the land to Abraham's "physical descendants", He promised it to his seed. The promise is not linked to DNA, it is linked to faith in Jesus Christ. The LDS Bible dictionary states: "Seed of Abraham. The heirs of the promises and covenants made to Abraham, and obtained only by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ." No need to cut it any other way, it is clear to me that the Firebrand divides the two halves (Genesis 15:17).

One Israel under Christ. The LDS church is not only the spiritual Israel but it is also the physical Israel. Being a literal descendant of Abraham is no guarantee of being a part of Christ's Israel. Conversion to Christ is required; baptism in the LDS church is the threshold into the House of Israel.

I believe the word of God is sufficient to sustain the doctrine in the LDS church that we can be like Him. And since He is God, we too shall be gods. If that is not the meat of the gospel, I don't know what is.

Just because I responded to his description of a "cage match" approach does not mean that I act that way. I should have confronted his insertion of those words when he presented them. If you look at my posts and what I have said I think you will agree that my presentation of the gospel is far from being an all out brawl.

Your logic is curious at best. According to you a Jewish person who denies Christ is part of his anointed nation Israel. Does the Holy Ghost anoint with the spirit of denial? According to you Christians (used to define those outside of the LDS church) who deny modern revelation, which brought about the restoration of Israel, can be part of Israel. If they deny the Israel which you acknowledge is in the LDS church, what Israel are they a part of? Do you profess that any baptism will do as passage into Israel or that no baptism is necessary to enter Israel? You may not like what I say and you may not agree with it, but my words are aligned with scripture.

I never said that the Jewish people were not important to God. I said that they are not Israel because Israel is located in Christ and the Jewish people deny Christ, who is btw the Anointed One of Israel. I do not view lightly the works of the Bible and the people who brought them forth. I greatly respect those that accomplished it. It just so happens that the modern Jew had nothing to do with bringing forth the word of God. And since God continues to withhold His word through them, due to their ongoing apostasy, the modern Jew has nothing to add to the word of God. Professing one Israel in the LDS church is hardly the meat of the gospel. It is more akin to pouring whole milk into the glass instead of 1%.

I find it incredible that I would have to defend as true the doctrine that the LDS Church is the only Israel in this world on a forum sponsored and participated by Mormons. The false doctrine would be to profess otherwise. The following is some of what I have professed. Please show me where I am mistaken in my understanding of Mormon doctrine. True or False: 1). Being a member of the LDS church makes you a part of Israel. 2). There can be only one Israel at any one time. 3). Persons of the Jewish faith are not part of Israel until they are converted in Christ. 4). Israel does not exist outside of Christ and His Church. 5). Baptism in the LDS church is the threshold for becoming a part of Israel. 6). Christians are not the anointed nation of Israel. 7). The LDS church is the gathering place of Israel. In my book all of the above are TRUE. If you can demonstrate how these statements are false please do.

"No holds barred" is a common expression that does not automatically equate to "cage match gospel sharing". The first expression was used by me to describe that I would not hold anything back in discussing the gospel on this forum or in person with individuals. The second expression was used by someone (maybe you) to inflate my first statement into something other than what I meant. Put simply, I will not dummy up the gospel to the lowest common denominator in order to protect someone’s sensitivities. Christ spoke boldly, the prophets spoke boldly, the apostles spoke boldly, and Joseph Smith spoke boldly. I wish to be more like them.

And you feel I have been overbearing? Please show me where my stating my beliefs has been overbearing. Why are your statements of belief not overbearing?