Bensalem

Unless the charity is a scam where no money collected ever reaches the cause advertised. Anderson Cooper on CNN had a great expose on this problem. I had no idea it was possible to collect money and use it only to pay charity expenses and salaries. My new guideline is to always give to a known and reputable organization.

I'll be reading my tithing slip more closely. I never saw that before. Not that it matters, but I like to believe money allocated to a cause actually goes to that cause.

Yes, I have some insight on the matter. Lucifer and his third knew themselves well and were very aware that they would fail on earth. So did the remaining two thirds of us, except we had faith in our brother Jesus to accomplish the atonement. Pride was Lucifer's first flaw; lack of faith was his second.

But our promises are better (as stated in my post above).

Thank you for your insight and willingness to share. To be clear, my daughter was not stating her opinions, she was reporting what she learned from scientific sources. I understand that science and religion are not usually inclusive in their teachings, but I like to explore how they may become so. I'm not looking for an acceptance of the behavior, only an explanation of how our doctrine might fit within scientific realities.

Excuse me but my wording was not precise. My daughter did not raise questions about the LDS views, she wondered what the LDS view on sexual orientation was in light of her understanding of scientific disclosures that choice most likely does not play a role.

I made similar arguments related to the Church's position on heterosexual improprieties, the law of chastity and so forth, with little impact. Also, that same sex attraction need not be acted upon. My daughter replied that heterosexual love denied can eventually be satisfied by heterosexual marriage, but same sex love, in many cases, cannot. And that such denial would amount to denial of one's self. The Church has addressed other issues of science such as evolution in relation to creation doctrine. I'm wondering if anyone has come across anything related to this issue of choice in sexual orientation.

Thanks for your insight. To be fair to my daughter, she stressed the studies that report homosexuals knew their orientation at very young ages. And that this knowledge created personality conflicts with accepted social norms. In addressing my perspective of free agency, she questioned the LDS church's views on whether sexual orientation was only a matter of choice. Do you know if the Church has addressed this issue directly?

Great opening post. I haven’t read what others have said, but as the husband of a Buddhist wife who wants nothing to do with Christ and who takes offense to the typical “more truth” presentation, I will share here what I shared with her. First, I equated doctrine with hope, which we know to be faith. Buddhists and all other religious orders have teachings that represent promises. For my wife, the elimination of wants brings peace; good behavior brings the reward of Nirvana (heavenly glory). For Christians, faith in Christ brings salvation. Jews find their rewards in obedience to the Law of Moses. Surely I am oversimplifying, but at the heart of all doctrine is a reward we hope will be fulfilled as promised. Second, I identified the hope we have in the LDS church for the promises lacking in other doctrine. For example, Buddhists do not have doctrine related to eternal families in Israel. Christians do not have the LDS doctrine of exaltation beyond salvation. And Jewish adherents to the Law of Moses do not obtain salvation in Christ. Again I am oversimplifying, but the point remains that what we call “more truth” is additional promises lacking in the doctrine of other religions. Third, I collected my pennies and began to ask my wife questions about our different doctrines. Things like: Are you thankful for your being (creation)? Are you held accountable for your acts on earth? Since these are common between our doctrine, we each received a penny. As I moved on to other LDS doctrines about the Abrahamic covenants and the promises God made to Israel (birthright, eternal families, etc.), and since I could answer yes to her questions to me related to her hopes, I began to accumulate more pennies than my wife. In this way, I demonstrated how our truths become more in the afterlife than her truths. However, she remains unconverted.

Open question about homosexuality: What is the LDS church's view on scientific discoveries that homosexuality has more to do with genetics than with personal choice? In a discussion with my daughter (BS in psychology with a minor in education and MS in school counseling), she presented that a preponderance of science shows that sexual orientation is predetermined by genetics and is not a matter of free choice being influenced by social and environmental factors. She likewise suggested that heterosexuality is not a choice, but is preconditioned in the genetic nature of one's being. Since free agency is critical to LDS doctrine, I was not willing to accept her premise that sexual orientation is 100% predetermined by one's genetic code. I argued that statistically speaking (even if I accepted her premise) there must be those with the "gay gene" who have chosen heterosexual behavior and there must be those with "heterosexual" DNA who have chosen a homosexual lifestyle. I presented that social and environmental factors could not be totally nullified in one's sexual choices. Her recent educational studies and my understanding of free agency could not be rectified. Another point of LDS doctrine states that in our premortal existence we had predetermined male or female spirit bodies. Likewise in the resurrection, our spirits will be reunited with the male and female bodies we possessed on earth. Does the LDS church have a view on how these scientific studies on sexual orientation fit into the doctrine of free agency and accountability?

I believe the Atonement, which happened here in Jesus, was for us and is limited to those who have lived on earth. His work was our personal salvation. As we look into the universe and discover more and more planets and see new solar systems forming in gaseous factories, it is clear that Joseph Smith's prophecies of eternal increase through the population of other worlds is true. As exalted pairs we will called to participate in the creation of spirit children who will colonize these new worlds. Everything that happened here will be repeated in the Word of God there. Since these worlds are in various stages of development, it makes sense that each would need an Adam, a Noah, an Enoch, a Melchizedek, an Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and so on and so on, even an only begotten Son of God to perform the Atonement for the spirits of that world. I don't see how Christ's Atonement could apply to a world not yet created or a world that has yet to be flooded or one that has yet organized a nation called Israel.

Sure, His family keeps growing.

I saw a frightening program on the short comings of eyewitness testimonies that led to guilty verdicts of the wrong suspect. Once the mind picked a person it was almost impossible to reteach it. The mind became biased. Some say that the mind stores everything and it is only a matter of re-triggering the proper synapses in order to recall an event. But others have proved that even these memory paths can become corrupted. I think I remember a scripture that says, once we are in heaven we will not look back at this world with any sense of longing. Maybe our memories (beyond our salvation in Christ) will not be of any value in the afterlife.

Since we came into this world ignorant of our past with no memory of God, I would say that we knew more before coming into this world than we do as human beings. As wonderful as the mind can be, it has limitations and boundaries to learning. I believe we all witnessed the creation from premortality, at least to the sixth day. Even all our history is witnessed by the angles, both the good and the evil ones. I believe we had a sure understanding of the true nature of God, which is more difficult to attain here on earth. In His presence we did not struggle with doubt, only with our own conviction, hence, the requirement to try our faith in a mortal world separate from God. Here we must demonstrate faith without sure knowledge. What we lacked in premortality was the experience provided by a physically independent life, in which we are granted a spiritually free will. Mortality is the harder test with the greater reward. All that we need to know about God is available in the written Word. Limitations of the human mind can be overcome by faith. When all doubt is again absent, the veil between us can be lowered and through the Holy Ghost a sure knowledge of God is attained.

Perhaps it is normal that the repeated lessons cause us to drift away from further benefit. I have been a member for twelve years and don't look forward to the lessons as much as I did earlier in my development but I continue to go because I enjoy witnessing the development of others, especially investigators. The class meetings have become less about my growth and more about the growth of others. I look at my attendance as a service to others. P.S. - LDS teaching is not the milk of the gospel; we have the meat of the gospel and serve up the wedding feast of the bride and bridegroom. There is more to digest in the Articles of Faith than exist in all the creeds combined. Most Christians are still nursing on salvation by grace, while we offer a baptism of repentance and the gift of the Holy Ghost at the hands of His Priesthood. Even these basics which they lack are a full platter.

You present an interesting perspective. Maybe the "price of success" that turned away many spirits from the commitment of entering mortality was the fact that we all have to face a physical death, as well as, placing us at risk of a spiritual death. As for myself, in my youthful journey away from God and the religion of the Catholic church, I did feel I could go it alone and face the consequences of my sins. I thought I was ready, willing, and able to pay the price at judgment time. I realized I could do nothing about the fact of my physical death, but I felt that whatever the punishment was, if I could bear it in the end, and I would be allowed to enter heaven. Without a full understanding of spiritual death as taught by the LDS Church, I sinned freely and justified my actions in human terms. I either wasn’t breaking society’s laws or if I did, I convinced myself that corporate greed justified it and that corporations could afford a small loss caused by me. It was the pride of believing, “I deserve it”. At the time I understood I had the right to choose wrong, but I did not have all the training that would inform an educated decision. I had to be taught by my Lord, when during my conversion I felt the agony of just one disobedience. It was too painful to bear and when He showed me my lifetime of more grievous sin, I understood it would be impossible to rectify them by my own means. In repentance from the vision of all my sins, in a bright recollection of my offenses, He cleansed me in a baptism of fire (free of pain and without anguish). With the eyes of our Lord upon us, true humility is possible. The Atonement by Christ is real and available and necessary to save our souls.

I like the surgery analogy. Life and death in the balance. Will we survive the experience or die from it? Our decision to come to earth was fully informed but not yet experienced. Our faith in the promises God made in premortality was rooted in our true knowledge of God. We fully understood His grace, mercy, and justice. We also knew ourselves as the spirit we wished to be. I suppose Lucifer and his 1/3 in the spirit world also knew themselves and understood their spirits. They knew that they would fail if given agency on earth. We come into this world ignorant of our past and blind to our future. Our spirits are innocent with only the light of Christ to know right from wrong. We all must be reeducated into a knowledge of God, which is imperfect in man, and so He gives us His Spirit to guide us. In so many ways this life seems unfair, but it remains the only path into Godliness. The suffering here is all man's fault. Free agency is required in order to winnow out the evil spirits in the remaining two thirds. The story of Cain and Able, told so early in man's history, informs each of us today as to the paths we are freely offered. A true knowledge of God and of the promises He made is attainable in this life. The Holy Ghost and the LDS scriptures testify of them. As in premortality, we must act upon our faith. We can become fully informed of the afterlife and of the resurrection, yet not experience it until we leave mortality to enter a new life with God. The two transitions (premortality-to-earth and mortality-to-afterlife) are compatible to a birth into a new realm. For those who remain in sin it will be a painful labor; for those who have repented in Christ it will be a painless birth, like coming out of the waters of baptism, and far more glorious. We leave this world with full knowledge of our past and a clear vision of our future, be them good or evil.

It happened in heaven (premorality; the spirit world) first when we were born of the Word, when God taught us of the Fall and of the Plan of Salvation, when we chose to participate in a life on earth and to be tried that we may be judged righteous in faith and return to our Father in heaven and become glorified in Christ in the resurrection. Baptism is the rebirth, the reaffirmation, of our prior commitment to the Plan. Also, after death we can still chose to accept the Word and through the LDS Church receive the required baptism of water via proxy in the temple.

Even when giving someone the other cheek you have to stand your ground. Although Jesus slipped away in the crowd a few times, he for the most part addressed the accusers. He answered their questions and taught them the truth using their own scriptures. The Word is on our side.

I always thought Christmas day was selected by theologians because it was the winter equinox, the shortest day (longest night) of the year, in order to symbolize our coming out of darkness as the increasing light of Christ filled each day into spring and summer.

For me, anything that attempts to raise doubt about LDS doctrine or belittles my faith in it is anti-Mormon. However, I do not take the advice of counsel to avoid it because I know that my testimony cannot be shaken. I learn from anti-Mormon literature what the enemy is up to. I can then prepare for the defense of my faith. I am rarely taken by surprise because most of the negative stuff is simply parroted from a few sources. It's not like they are thinking for themselves. Some are genuinely looking for answers, but most are just doing the devil's work.

In all ways (except for the manner of Jesus' conception) our life in the premortal spirit world, the mortal world, and the resurrected afterlife parallels the life of Christ. In premortality Jesus was our spirit brother. Our spirits were begotten of God, meaning we accepted the Word which described the Fall of Adam and the Plan of Salvation. In this life Jesus became fully human (begotten flesh and blood); like us he was mortal and suffered the pain of death. But unlike us he had only one earthly biological parent. In the afterlife all who are resurrected in the glory of Christ will posses a body of flesh and bone. I look at the resurrection as a rebirth from the grave or death, so I say we will be begotten in the flesh (and bone) of the resurrected body of Christ. We will be as Christ is. I hope that clears up any confusion caused by my presentation.

Yea, awesome times.

I should have copyrighted it before posting it.

No, I am not suggesting any birthing process into the resurrection. In the resurrection we shall be "children in the flesh" because we shall be the Body of Christ, aka, the Church. The opening poster questioned the begotten aspect of the "Only Begotten Son of God" vs us being His creation (not begotten). In this life we are begotten of flesh and blood by earthly parents and are spiritually begotten of God. In the resurrection we will be as Christ, made of flesh and bone (and our spirits will be one with Him).