Bensalem

What does it mean to you to be a witness to Christ? Because to me it means I am a witness for and of Christ.

I would like to ask a related question that effected me personally: A member and I were starting a new job together offered by a third member who owner her own business. As we went through her orientation before starting the job she and her husband (also a member) noticed the smell of alcohol on the fellow applicant. She asked me if I knew of any issues with this member and since I didn't I said no. Some time after he was rejected for the job, his wife confided in me that he did have an issue with alcohol. My question is: If he had been called to serve in the church should I have objected, evaluated the calling and the likelihood of his issues hampering him, or assumed the Bishop must know and sustained him? Likewise, if you were the wife, should you raise an objection?

Maybe the guy is just uneducated about what really happens.

Catch you on the rebound. Have a great weekend.

How can you even suggest I am a "witness to Reverend Moon"? I called his doctrine false in the OP. Likewise, I never argued that Jesus didn't fulfill the will of the Father in every way. But no one has given me any evidence that it was the Father's will that he should be married to a wife on earth. My argument is that we should not add to the Father's will.

I would rather you answer my question as it stands, putting yourself in Jesus' place as being obedient to his Father and focused on the Atonement, which brings the salvation required for an exalted marriage to be possible; remembering that the doctrine of his first appearance was service above all else toward the spreading of the gospel of repentance and of baptism in his Church. The whole eternal marriage thing came through revelation almost 2000 years after his death. Joseph Smith brought the whole progression thing into relevance. Our own scriptures teach that Jesus grow from grace to grace. Why don't we honor that idea as Christ moves from glory to glory? The idea of him taking an earthly bride seems nothing more than gossip. Why would Christ drink from the corrupt well of Israel when the new and restored Israel was just around the cornerstone of his first church. He had to build a church first, then had to restore it to full functionality before building up the nation of Israel, and finally will glorify his work as a paradisaical earth takes shape under his 1000 year reign. Let him pick a wife then from an Israel and a people glorified as he is.

It goes to his lesson of service to God above all earthly considerations. Same as has been used to justify celibate service in other Christian religions. No record of it's necessity in scripture or it's occurrence in history leaves me to discern that it wasn't needed and didn't happen. I struggle with why we should entertain such gossip.

Granted, I do not know what Jesus knew of his Father's will. But I do know that an earthly marriage for Jesus was not articulated to us through scripture. And I know that the warning against the invention of doctrine was articulated. It is one thing to say that marriage is required for anyone (including Jesus) to attain the highest glory. It is another to say that Jesus must therefore have married while on earth. We still save no witness of a gloried male/female pair. Why would Jesus, knowing of his own promised glorification, the glorification of the Church, and the glorification of Israel, look for a human wife when eventually he would have the pick of the Kingdom?

The effects of the Fall were the introduction of mortality (physical death) and the risk of remaining separated from God (spiritual death). Salvation resolves only the issue of spiritual death; we remain subject to physical death. Salvation allows for our eternal life, but only after mortality. Only at Christ's second coming will mortality be ended. As described in scriptures, there remains the example of translation as a means for us to avoid the pains of physical death. Christ said he had the ability to give his life and take it up again. Eternal life was already his and he required no redemption. So his work in the atonement was solely for our benefit.

I live in northern California so I am not a dodger fan. At least I was honest in my reason for not reading the scriptures you referred to. As I said, I have no doubt that my lesson of what defines the dividing line between estates matches scripture. You have yet to demonstrate that your understanding matches the scriptures because you have not explained your disagreement with me in terms of your scriptural interpretation. I am not in conflict with my understanding, you are. So it remains on you to prove me wrong. I know little about you, but that does not limit my ability to have a discussion with you.

I am familiar with the discrepancy between my quote, which comes from the Jerusalem Bible, Doubleday & Company, 1966 and the King James translation. I am also familiar with the LDS doctrine that the bible is the word of God so long as it is translated correctly. The whole of Isaiah 13 in all bibles is a dire warning against the modern spiritual Babylon we live in. The chapter is Messianic in nature and applicable to His second coming in glory. It also gives us a view of what those who die before the second coming will come to face outside of salvation in Christ. Your “worth of souls” interpretation does not fit within the Oracle of destruction foretold in the chapter. Let me give you a feel for the mercilessness of our Christ reported by Isaiah: “On a bare hill hoist a signal, sound the war cry. Beckon them to come to the Nobles’ Gate. I, for my part, issue orders to my sacred warriors, I summon my knights to serve my anger, my proud champions. Listen! A rumbling in the mountains like a great crowd. Listen! The din of kingdoms, of nations mustering. It is Yahweh Sabaoth marshalling the troops for battle. They come from a distant country, from the far horizons, Yahweh and the instruments of his fury to lay the whole earth waste. How! For the day of Yahweh is near, bringing devastation from Shaddai. At this, every arm falls limp… The heart of each man fails him, they are terrified, pangs and pains seize them, they writhe like a woman in labor. They look at one another with feverish faces. The day of Yahweh is coming, merciless, with wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to desert and root out sinners from it. For the stars of the sky and Orion shall not let their light shine; the sun shall be dark when it rises, and the moon not shed her light. I will punish the world for its evil-doing, and the wicked for their crimes, to put an end to the pride of arrogant men and humble the pride of despots. I will make men scarcer than pure gold, human life scarcer than the gold of Ophir. This is why I am going to shake the heavens – and make the earth reel from its place, before the wrath of Yahweh Sabaoth, the day when his anger flares” (Isaiah 13:1-13)

The problem is not your condescension. Nor you asking me to read certain scriptures. It is always advisable to obtain the Spirit's input. What troubles me is your unwillingness to continue our discussion, which may have lead to an understanding of each other's view point on the matter. You disagreed with my making the dividing line between estates as the line drawn between good and evil, which I subsequently equated to faith and rebellion, using the premortal example of Lucifer's rebellion and lose of his first estate. Your response was to refer me to scripture, which does not clarify your position. I am sure scripture is accurate and I am sure my view does not contradict scripture. What remains unresolved is your view on what constitutes the dividing line and whether that view contradicts scripture, after all, it maybe you who has limited vision on the matter. That is why I asked you to provide me with your interpretation of the scriptures you referenced to. And specifically please tell me how they would eliminate my position that the dividing line between each estate is good and evil (faith and rebellion).

My Mom was a farm girl. I sometimes wonder if I should have followed my Dad's example. God has made a place (many mansions) for everyone in a state (heaven) where free agency allows each of us to knock and enter into a mansion according to the Word of God we have chosen to accept. We are even allowed to investigate and leave if no 'family connections' seem apparent. In this way selecting the proper house of learning is a personal matter. All denominations and religious orders have some truth, and each individual will be judged according to that truth which they have adopt into their hearts. We in the LDS church, by our doctrine, are certainly different from others with their doctrine. We, by the Holy Ghost, are uniquely Christ's. In this difference of doctrine and Spirit, goodness must also vary, since 'goodness' and "Godliness' are inseparable. But all religions ought to be 'nice' (respectful) to each other.

1). The Bible teaches that the saints will be the judge of this world. How can you teach repentance unless you judge a wrong? So judgment is taking place all the time when teaching. 2). In light of the fact that we will be judged according to our deeds, are you sure you want to say, "it doesn't matter how much earthly good is done"? My daughter hopes to use her education to facilitate underprivileged youth in our failing educational systems. Is that somehow not the work of God? 3). While my daughter may never understand God in this life, she does understand doing good and avoiding evil distractions.

I never suggested a retry mode; it is either pass of fail. In the premortal first estate the line was drawn between those spirits who rebelled against the Word and those who went along with the Plan of Salvation; they moved on to their second estate upon a mortal earth, while the rebellious angles lost their first estate. Wasn't Lucifer's rebellion evil and the faith of the remaining participants good? Likewise with our earthly second estate. Those who rebel against the Word are judged evil and loose their second estate, while those who's faith leads them to God are judged good and move on to the Kingdom of Heaven, which is our third estate. Again, faith or rebel (meaning good or evil) are the determining factors.

Was Pres Uchtdorf referring to the "middle way" as being our mortal life here on earth between our premortal life and our afterlife?

Study 1 Nephi 10 and then master Jacob 5. Ponder Mormon 8. How has the church become so polluted? Why don't you just tell me?

Could you please explain why a sinless Christ would have "to work out HIS own salvation"? Salvation is the rescue from having to pay the debt of your own sin. Christ redeems us; He required no redemption. Never mind the fact that earthly marriage for Jesus was never articulated to be the will of the Father. Christ's mission was to do the will of Father in regards to the Plan of Salvation through the act of atonement and he accomplished it. An earthly marriage does not follow the pattern set by the miracle between Elohim and Mary. That example will no doubt be followed by the Priesthood and some other 'Mary' on some other planet when Christ's own son will become the Only Begotten and Savior of that population of souls, who have not yet even been organized in a future premortal creation.

I haven't done the reading assignment so I won't try to answer your question. But let me suggest that the two churches can be equated to the Church of Good and the church of evil. Since all good things come from Christ and other religions has some good people in them, than many will be judged to be good and will enter into the light of Christ in the resurrection. Since Christ is the Word, than the Church of the Lamb includes all who have accepted and acted upon His good word. However, to be in the light of Christ is different than to be in the body of Christ, which requires baptism. Baptism makes us a saint in his Church. And again, to be exalted in the priesthood is a still higher form of glorification than baptism alone. Therefore we can all be a part of his church and we can be at different levels of personal progression.

Thanks for your assessment of Heber13's internal conflict. Maybe my two posts above will help to reconcile him.

And the dividing line is salvation at the time of death. The repentant faithful will enter a spiritual paradise awaiting the resurrection. Those who die in their sins will be claimed by Satan and go to spirit prison. One may be resurrected in the light of Christ, but access to the Church of Christ requires baptism.

I was disagreeing with what you originally said: I speak of spiritual death as what happens when we die in our sins (not having obtained forgiveness through the atonement); we are claimed by Satan and we go to spirit prison. Salvation is the rescue from the 'hell' of spirit prison after physical death. Salvation returns us to a spiritual paradise where we remain until the resurrection of the just. Resurrection is not exaltation. Resurrection unites our spirits with our bodies. But Alma taught that all are resurrected; the just are resurrected to eternal life in the light of Christ and the unjust to eternal misery in darkness. The Fall did not bring spiritual death to Adam since he still had access to the Holy Ghost. The separation was from God's physical presence, not His spiritual presence. The Fall brought on mortality and introduced physical death, but you made it sound as if salvation saved us from the pains of physical death. It does not. Exaltation is glorification. We must be glorified before entering the presence of God. As Church members we are the body of Christ, since Christ is a glorified being, we are also glorified in Christ. Christ was baptized on earth by John who held the Aaronic priesthood. In order to be part of His body, all must be baptized in like manor. Whereas many may gain salvation and live eternally in the light of Christ, only the baptized gain access to the body of Christ. A higher exaltation is obtainable through the covenants of the priesthood. When we become priests our glorification is akin to God's.

So what are the two churches?

Are you joking again?

I have to disagree. Many with faith in Christ suffer physical pain in death. Salvation rescues us from spiritual death because our sins have been forgiven; there is no debt to pay. Spiritual death is a separation from God, but one can be in the company of the Holy Ghost and not yet be exalted in Christ. Salvation is sanctification. Exaltation is glorification.