CaptainTux

Truth without love or compassion is not truth when one is trying to explain the author of love....it is thinly veiled insecurity. Steflou, IMHO bob_oz gave you the best advice. There is nothing I could hope to add to his comments. It is my hope and prayer that you two are able to keep your marriage. I am, for the first time in years, trying to take the role of spiritual leader in my home and my wife is watching with suspicion. I have years of broken promises to overcome and her reservation is understandable. The only reason I bring up me is that people can grow, men can learn, we want to be good husbands and good fathers. I am sure just as you are struggling for resolutions to this mess, he is as well. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.

I am a non dom I think it is a good place to hang around. You do not have to be LDS to be an active part of the forums here and participate and share ideas. I would also say that most of the lds folk here do a wonderful job welcoming you to their home on the web. The only thing I would say is to remember that this is an LDS centric forum and as such, we are guests and need to be as respectful to them as they are to us.

Thanks MrsS! It has been a good one so far. In about 9 minutes I am driving my wife to the train station (she does not like to fly) for a business trip she has and then it is me and the big kid for a week. Our first mission will be to jump on the bed and play ball in the house.

My apologies. I will cease with the in fighting. The bad news is that we are all sinners who deserve to get it. The good news is that we have been offered grace to be freed from sin and live with our Heavenly father for eternity.God is pure and cannot be in the presence of impurity. A analogy I use is a glass of distilled water. The purified water is God. Dump sewage sludge in it and it is no longer pure. Dump a small drop of food coloring and it is no longer pure. Little or big the sins, we are separated from God from impurity. The sacrifice of Jesus is a cleansing gift that purifies us so we can bask in the presence of God one day. No law can cleanse us. No set of rules can ever be adhered to by the letter of the law...we do not have it in us. Even if we obey all the rules, but our hearts want something different, we are impure. The blood and the sacrifice give us that purity that we have lost since eden. I am no different from you. My thoughts are selfish, my desire for impure things is strong. I have no goo that drips off me that does not drip off mere mortals. I have merely accepted the gift offered to me and use the Bible as a guide to how I can live a better life and follow the one who sacrificed for me and try to explain that gift to others. My apologies for being a poor ambassador of that simple truth.

To clarify, I did not say Jesus broke he law. The creator of the law may not break the law. I said Jesus broke he law in the eyes of the in their legalistic eyes.

Its evident you havent read the law and dont know what it says. Such is NOT in the law. I challenge you to show me book chapter and verse that backs up "carefully lay pieces of property every few paces to get around on the Sabbath" Ow. I do walk in ignorance of many things, but not this one. Sometimes you have to read the Bible to understand the law and then do a little exegetical study and hermeneutics to discover what else was going on. The best core verse for this would be..... JER 17:21 and 22 Jewish law had this to mean you could not carry anything out of your home, your property. Common practice for Jews for centuries, and even today by the orthodox, is to strategically place belongings from your home every few feet to wherever it is you intend to go on the Sabbath. By placing a dirty sock a few feet from your home, you extend the boundaries of your property and can move about until your trail of bread crumbs runs dry. This avoided the penalty for desecrating the Sabbath. Let's look at some of the other bits of law regarding the Sabbath, shall we? You may not work on the Sabbath Lev. 23:3 Exodus 34:21 You may not cook and prepare food on the Sabbath. Ex 16:21-30 You can't let your kids, pets, employees, servant staff, and non believer buds staying in your home work on the sabbath. Ex 20:8-10 Exodus 23:12 Deut 5:12 You cannot light a match, a lighter, a fireplace, turn on a light bulb, or arm your furnace or gas stove. Exodus 35:3 Doing these things by the law is desecrating the Sabbath. The penalty for desecration of the sabbath according to Exodus 35:3 and Num. 15:32-36 is death. Might be why so many got peeved that Jesus broke the law He came to fulfilled in thier legalistic eyes by healing on the seventh day. Jesus response to the ones so concerned that day and the day his disciples took husks of corn from their stalks on the Sabbath shows that Jesus had to educate them that the sabbath law was never intended to be a slavish regulation that functioned as an “end” within itself. He did this be giving exposition of the meaning of the a brief quoted scripture and by telling them that one greater than the temple was there. I am not greater than the temple, but I do mow the lawn and go places on Saturdays. I turn on the lights and cook food. Anyway, all that is a bit strayed. The main point was an answer to why I said that fulfillment of the law frees one from laying property every few paces to avoid death for violating the law f the sabbath.

I agreed with you that he gave us fulfillment of the law, but he also gave freedom from chapter and verse and wearing little headbands on our heads with the Torah strapped to our skull. We know we do not have to carefully lay pieces of property every few paces to get around on the Sabbath. We know that the commanments can be summed up as loving the lord your God with all your heart and soul and strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Jesus was not about dogma, he was about love and passion and he constantly challenged those who lived in dogmatic obsession of the law. He understood the meaning of the words written without having to quote them , he would quote, I am not saying he did not, but Jesus always did so in elegance. He reserved his poison for the ones who live in dogma, When you translate them into plain english, here are some of Jesus' better shots to the Rabbi's and religious elite...... You nest of snakes! You are like tombs painted white. Outside, they look fine. But inside they are full of rotteness. You are the same. You are the children of killers! You are two-faced! You make strict rules for people to obey, but you don't even try to follow them yourselves. You won't learn and you stop other people from learning too. You fools! You are full of greed and badness! You cheat widows and steal their houses. Then you try to look good by saying long prayers. God will punish you! Jesus would not be a popular guy with most Christians were He around today. I think He would offend us...and He would be right.

I could write pages about my grandfather. He was a survivor of the Bataan Death March and continued to serve his country in the Korean war. He was in the Army Air Corps and was an airline mechanic. In 1954 he started to work for United Air Lines as a mechanic and continued to work there until he retired in 2001. When my father left, he took over the role of dad until my mom remarried in 1980. He then picked up the pieces of what was left of me in 1983 and took the mantle of father again. My biological father is a man of some fame, but has never been there in my life. Expensive things sent to me on birthday's and Christmases. Making sure my visits to him wold make the local society happenings, but not the adviser, counselor, disciplinarian, and friend every young boy needs. He took me to baseball games, hockey games, talked me through my first car accident, helped me learn to defend myself against my first (and last) bully. Gave me tough love when I would get out of line. When he found smokes in my jean jacket, he removed the cigarettes and replaced them with shaved carrots and asked me later that day if I ate anything healthy. When I slammed a door in anger, he removed my bedroom door from it's hinges and took my car keys away and told me there would be two less doors I would be slamming, etc. When a girl came to my door that he actually likes, he kept letting her in the house and kept the other ones at bay. He was the one who told me to read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John over and over again as long as a lived. When I was separated from my wife and told the family I was getting a divorce, he was the one who literally knocked me on my butt and told me to grab that girl and be her husband and do whatever it took to be a man. He is now slipping in the grip of Alzheimer's and it is me and my uncles who take of him now. My uncles and I? None of us have ever been divorced. We have never hit our wives or kids, we have never slacked off on unemployment, we own up to our errors, and we get by each and every day making the best choices we know how and move on past mistakes. We owe much of this to a man who did not always do the right thing. In the 50's and 60's he was an alcoholic who beat his wife and kids and then found sobriety and worked for years to win back the trust of his wife and the love of his kids. I never knew that man, I only knew the one who had changed and found redemption. My uncles have forgotten the man from before and as far as they are concerned, only the new man exists. That is the hero we know. He was never famous, never wealthy, and the most glamorous thing he ever had was a old t bird convertible. He will tell you the most glamorous thing he ever had was his wife.

For you that is all there is than. The law. Fulfillment is about freedom. It is entering the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter. It is no longer about rules and regs and do's and don'ts, it is about don't want to's and a deep desire to. It is about loving the lord your God with all your heart your soul and your strength, it is about loving your neighbor as you love yourself. It is about the meek inheriting the earth and turning the other cheek and not worrying about what others are doing before cleaning your own house. It is about being an ambassador of love and one who shares good news as opposed to being a harbinger of doom. Until that lesson is learned and love is achieved as the greatest commandment gives us...until the news we share is good, then all quotes are meaningless and without soul and life. It is mere tubthumping.

Shantress, I want to thank you for phrasing an honest statement with no wrath and no judgment, generalization, and assumption on other people who's only crime in life is being famous.Why doesn't my grandfather get as much recognition as Oprah? Is that Oprah's fault? Is it Angelina Jolie's fault there is a bidding war for their cute kid's pics but not mine? Stories will make the news of page one for a reason. We will buy the paper and they will sell more papers. They print what we will buy. This is not a media conspiracy, this is not celebrities wringing their hands in glee as they get credit for things you do every day. Trust me, they want their privacy and desire normalcy more than you will ever fathom. It would make their day to be able to what they love for a living without having to deal with people shoving pens and papers in their face while trying to have a family dinner, paparazzi assaulting their kids and taunting them, stalkers obsessed with them and inadequate laws protecting them from stalkers even after the death of a young girl just getting started in the biz. The people around us who are wonderful should be recognized. They are not. We can be childish and point out the faults and shortcomings of the celebrities. That is what most school kids do in the play ground. Insult others so they can feel superior. That is called jealousy and insecurity. Or you can give some recognition to those who you feel deserve recognition. Start a thread recognizing your stars, your heroes, and your everyman who rose to meet extraordinary circumstances. Do something positive. I have heard people make assumptions, judgments, and flat out attacks on people they have never met. They used the Bible to defend their actions, but I have heard few here say anything positive about the people who are not getting recognition that should. Perhaps we are partly to blame for the problem. Perhaps if we stopped complaining about the inequity and just said something about the person we want to see recognized, things may be different.

Is that all there is? The letter of the law? Is that not what someone was trying to free us from?

Did not say the Bible was a game. The Bible is the inspired word of God. Please do not twist my words. I said I will not play the Bible memory verse game. You obviously know your Bible and you have firm views on sin. But I just do not think we see eye to eye on this one. Just as some obsess with the positive of the celebrities and the glamor, you judge them. You are harsher on them and hold them to a higher standard of behavior than you do for me, or for you. I learned a long time ago that if you point a finger around, eventually you will walk smack dab into a mirror. I suppose I will play the Bible memory verse game. This one has been a mantra for me. Matthew 7:1-5 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) Matthew 7 1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. I also have found much peace in this one, Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. The only good deed or lovely act that can be done without the tarnish of sin is something done my God. The rest of us are mere mortals. Accepting the good things we do and saying a child is lovely no matter the circumstances of its birth is not relishing in sin. It is not making excuses. Perhaps being honest about my sinful nature may seem that I am giving myself a pass. I am not. Nor do I give others a pass, but I would offer them good news before I tell them what a pin head they are. That is me just compounding the problem. I have enjoyed the exchange, but I've really nothing else to say to you on this matter. We will enter the circular argument and never come to a conclusion. You see me as one who gives sin a pass with reckless abandon and I see you as one who is judgmental. I can live with that. Lot's of people disagree with me on a great many things. I am curious? Do you have any car salesmen in your church? If you do, their tithe likely comes from a lie told here and there. They dare to give to the church with ill gotten gains. These celebs are in the dark, the approach of judging them will never break them, it will place them in a defensive position.

I will do a little self examination based on the ten commandments. They sey if you have killed on man in cold blood, you are a murderer. I will stick with that logic. I have told lies, so I am a liar. I stole some stuff in my life, so I am a thief. I have envied other people their nice cars or nice laptop so I covet. I may even be an idolater on that score. The Bible does tell me if I so much as look at a woman with lust, I may as well have committed the deed, so (speaking of Angelina) I am an adulterer. I have used the Lord's name in vain, so I am a blasphemer. The book of James tells me that when I gossip about someone I have murdered them, so I am also a murderer. Yet, I still consider myself to be a great a dad, humble before God, and my wife tells me that I am a great husband. I have done some good things for other people and received recognition for such. I may not be famous, but I am a reprobate who has done some good stuff and no one has negated the good I have done or removed the credit or said the good I have done should not be recognized. Anything good that comes from me is due to the grace bestowed on me. The love without end.

We also know that Jesus healed. Yet, there was a beggar outside the temple gates for John to meet after Jesus ascended. The beggar was a cripple, it was likely his spot for years. Jesus likely walked by him many a time. To say everyone Jesus met repented or was healed is as much speculation as it is that they were not all healed or repented. We never get to hear if the woman at the well lived happily ever after. We do know King David took another man's wife, killed the guy in a preggy cover up, paid the price for his sin and was still blessed by God. We know of Jesus praying alone in the garden despite wishes for companionship, we know Jesus was denied three times by one who claimed to love Jesus and yet lied as Jesus suffered. We know the Bible is full of imperfect people who sinned even after knowing the truth and were still blessed. If you wanna play the Bible memory verse game, I could do it, but I find it to be cheap. But, like the famous verse in proverbs , few verses are clear without the complete context, cultural climate at the moment of the writing, who was writing, who was written to, why was written, etc.Jesus tells us to repent. He tells us to sin no more. I have yet to go an entire day without sinning. How about you? Where does that leave us if you answer honestly?

Do we know everyone he hung with and healed repented? I've never read that part. I never knew that His love had condition. The birth of any child is a beautiful affair. God has taken the time to count and know every hair on that child. I suppose the alternative to having it would be acceptable? No. It wouldn't. Do we have to go through the list of great men and women of God who were born illegitimate? I have a cousin who had a child out of wedlock when she was seventeen. Her parents kicked her out and she lived with me and my grandparents. Yeah, my little Beckie fornicated. She also gave birth to the third most beautiful baby in the world. Her name is Sam. Sam is 13 now and is in ballet. She has green eyes and loves the White Sox. She can smoke most boys her age at fantasy football. Angelina's baby is quite lovely. While you throw stones, are you praying for them to raise their child right, or have you already decided it is hopeless for them? Is it hopeless for Sam...considering the circumstances of her birth. Let me know so I can tell her mom. I would also like to call Angelina's agent. They have a right to know their b***** and all they do is worthless. The good news is a message of love and compassion and second chances that we do not deserve. Me, you, angelina, brad, sam. None of us deserve it, but it is right there in front of us. Not a bad deal.

Not sweeping anything under the rug. I really guess that Jesus guy should have spent more time judging the hookers and lepers as opposed to loving them and wasting all that good recrimination on the religious elitist who used the law to slam the masses he reached out to on the Sabbath.

I think the matter being confused here is stars verses heroes. You read books like The Greatest Generation and Wisdom of Our Fathers and you have real life tales of heroes. Stars are celebrities who are in the public eye for entertaining on stage or screen or through song or being able to hit a ball or being a jerk on a reality show. These celebrities fascinate us and we are enthralled because, like good cows, we believe the grass is greener on the other side. Nothing wrong with that as long as it does not become idolatry. Are celebrities and wealthy people able to do good? Yep! Are the unsaved and unrepentant able to do good works? Yep! Are Christians able to be selfish, judgemental, and do nothing for the greater good? Yep! Angelina Jolie is the best thing to happen to UNICEF since Audrey Hepburn and to criticize her good deeds by casting the stone of out of wedlock motherhood and a sinful life is myopic. President Jimmy Carter was the most ineffective President in my lifetime, but his work in Habitat for Humanity is amazing. Bill Gates has reprehensible business practices, but no one can deny the effectiveness and genuine nature of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. We should applaud that which does good for the world and love those who do not do as well as they could morally.

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In Oklahoma, a minor under the age of 15 may marry with written consent of the parents. South Dakota law does not permit marriages for those under 16. So, let us pretend some parents in OK consent for the 15 year old son to wed a 22 year old woman. Then the 22 year old gets a job transfer to South Dakota. Will SD recognize the marriage of the couple? I do not know the answer. If there is a ruling by the Supreme Court on a matter, a local judge cannot over rule it, can they? There are laws on the books that are passed by congress that are not amendments that cannot be overruled by local judges, aren't there? The first thing that comes to mind is the laws and rights of law enforcement contained in the Patriot act. I am stepping into guess work here to be honest.

Okay, I am not sure I agree. We have slightly different laws on marriage (which defines the family) and divorce that vary from state to state. Different ages of consent, blood test yes or no, time frame of obtaining a license, who can perform ceremonies, no fault divorce or sue for divorce, etc. However, my question on a national issue on this matter. Would it be best served, in your opinion, by the Supreme Court (Judicial Branch), Congress via a bill (Legislative Branch) signed by the president (executive branch) or a amendment to the constitution (that is handled by congress, right?)?

Yeah, PC has done his homework. Most of the things people vote for or are for are things that make us feel good. PRO life. PRO choice FOR the environment FOR gay marriage FOR traditional family values With all decisions, we have to be judicious and ask the long term questions. We have to ask what this choice or that choice could lead to. The party in power at any given time has to know the reign will not last forever and the decision made now have to made carefully. If decisions are made solely on preference , then the power in charge a decade from now may have different preferences and one may have opened pandora's box to have something you cherish banned. This is why I am opposed to banning of books. If I ban Huck Finn...what prevents one from banning the Bible? I have seen some libraries that have banned pro gay material including Shakespeare and Oscar Wilde over this issue (??????????). We have to be careful in all we do. One day the Bible and CS lewis may be on the do not read list. This rant is off topic, but it falls into play about what some are saying here regarding the legal principles and precedents we set, be it condoning of gay marriage or over rule states rights when (constitutionally) the federal gvt is beholden to the states, not the other way around.

I do not see any caveats there. There is no prohibition to granting federal funds...at what point does one take federal funds? At the point a federal employee uses their paycheck to put a student into a private religious school or seminary? The ACLU said that is the case in 1992 and set a legal precedent. Thin edge of the wedge. Do we change the amendment in accommodation of federal funds? What if the federal funds go to, as our current president has moved, to religious charitable groups? If Catholic charities received federal funds to aid hurricane victims, does the church have to perform marriages for gay people?

I'll assume ari is someone who made a lot of trouble here once. Every forum has one. On the one I am regularly at it is a guy called Dr Evil who clones handles. I am who I am and will gladly submit identity to a mod or admin if asked. NAMBLA was a most extreme example. I was not equating homosexuals to pedophiles. I was showing how the thin edge of a wedge (homosexual marriage) can lead the wedge into a bigger thing...a much bigger thing. My first instinct was to go with polygamy, but I did not want to have my example being mis interpreted as some mis understanding with the current position of the lds on that topic. Look, I fail to see how being opposed to homosexual union is picking on them. Going back to the thin edge of the wedge, the constitution is at stake...not with separation of church and state (a non existent phrase) but from the church to have the protection FROM the state. I am cool with the equal opportunity employment act. I am cool with homosexuals being protected in the workplace. But, when does that become reversed? When will churches be forced to hire or admit into seminaries people of lifestyles not considered acceptable by the church? At what point is it considered discriminatory practice to refuse to perform ceremonies in your church for gay marriages? I am not one who believes in some liberal conspiracy to tear down the church. I am not one who believes the family will be destroyed if harry and bill get to be married. I do believe that with every legal decision a precedent is set and there is a domino affect that we have to watch for and we always need to ask the what if's on every matter that our elected officials decide on our behalf. UCLA...ACLU...there's a difference.

You find me separation of church and state in the constitution and I'll back ya up. After you give up trying to find what ain't there, I will be willing to give you the source of the phrase. Constitutionally, I see this is a state's right issue and not an amendment issue. That said, there is another side to the coin. Some feel that accepting homosexuality will open up a legal principle called the thin edge of the wedge Allowing one group to wed based on preference opens up legal principles to grant this to other groups. NAMBLA and the UCLA are already buddies. I know I know, it may be something you are born with, but it could also be situational, jury is still out on that one.

Honestly, I would prefer the mysteries be centered around areas of theology and real tough questions, not ones that read like a trivial pursuit card (Was Jesus Married-What was Gomer Pyle's Middle Name/ What coach wears three Superbowl Rings?) It is silly and moot. Personally I do not believe Jesus was ever married...however, at the end of the day, it is not in the Bible one way or another...ergo..i is not of any relevance. What is relevant? The second coming, the great commission, what I have to do to be a better husband, the role of people in the church..these are the mysteries we should be fascinated with and trying to unravel. I used to subscribe to a magazine called Biblical Archeology. The stuff that we really find in digs is far more exciting than arks and grails...here is the kicker...these are real. Do you know that archaeologists routinely use Paul's missionary journeys as a map and find stuff all the time? We have likely found Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah, and so many other treasures. We have unraveled rel mysteries and the Bible contains so many other mysteries that are not locked in code, but study.