crashdown

Go to Heart 2 Heart website. (I can't find the Web address right now) It has a comprehensive list of questions to help you determine whether it's emotional abuse. It also provides a lot of resources for support. I have found it very helpful.

The problem is -- she is lazy in domestic responsibilities. Gets no energy from doing housework whatsoever. She hates it. She sees the kids as an inconvenience in the evenings because it interferes with watching television or reading. Time to herself, every day for several hours is vitally importan to her happiness -- at the expense of other things. However, she is amazing in her work -- very responsible at work and her employers always love her. She beat out 50 applications for a job at a law firm recently as an admin assistant -- that is her charisma and personality and capability -- part of what attracted me to her. In this economy, she applied for ONE JOB, and got it. Is it possible she derives more pleasure, satisfaction, appreciation, respect, accolades, power, etc., from her outside-the-home work rather than her domestic work? Some women just don't like cooking/cleaning as much as they do working outside the home. Perhaps she thinks it's degrading? Does she think it is a drudgery? Is she overworked at her job and therefore exhausted when she comes home? I don't know, I'm just trying to brainstorm what could be causing her to act like that. Obviously, it's very trying for you and obviously you are trying very hard to keep your marriage together and to support her. I think you are a good man with a good heart and I am impressed with all that you are doing to love and support her.

Oh, oh, oh, I know! I know! What about a DIET COKE tattoo? Caffeine free, of course. I tried to convince the primary leaders in our ward to get CTR tattooed across the knuckles on one hand and "RWH" (Return with Honor) tattooed across the knuckles on the other hand. But nobody ever listens to me. <sigh> I personally think the "Modest is Hottest" tramp stamp is awesome! That would make a great Young Women's activity!!!!

I understand the importance of many of the church's doctrines. I understand how they can better my life. What frustrates me is the lack of "how to" when these topics are discussed. Specifically, I want to know HOW TO forgive. Are there specific steps involved? How does one "let it go?" How do I apply the Atonement? Again, what are the specific steps? Answering with a simple ""prayer, scripture study, go to church" doesn't cut it for me. I agree they are essential, but I have a sneaking suspicion there is more to it. Besides, I don't always know what to pray for. Nor do I know what to look for when I study the scriptures. Most of the scriptures on forgiveness seem to focus on the importance of doing it but don't mention the HOW part. I also realize that the impressions received from the Holy Ghost are key in all of this. I I guess what I want is someone to give me a step-by-step, detailed checklist and maybe I'm asking for something that doesn't exist. I just want specifics, not the usual "pat" answers. Does any of this make sense?

Gwen and Vort---My experience is that it goes both ways. I have female friends who are constantly criticizing their husbands and male friends who are constantly complaining about their wives. I don't think either sex treats the other one as well as we should. And for the record, Vort, I am also sick of men being put down. I don't like it when fathers are portrayed on TV as stupid, bumbling oafs...or absent altogether. Nor do I like it when men get taken advantage of (and get shafted) during divorce proceedings. (which is a whole other can of worms) Nor do I like to see men henpecked. I like the old days when Michael Landon was the father on Little House on the Prairie and he was kind, wise, and fair to all his children. He treated his wife with respect and she adored him and loved him in return. A bit idealistic? Perhaps, but in my little bubble, I like it that way.

I have learned something new today: Vort is a MAN! Which is good because when I thought he was a woman, I didn't like "her" very much. Seemed a little too sympathetic to the men and what self-respecting woman doesn't enjoy ripping on men? I'm just teasing. My hubby increased my life insurance after our financial planner pointed out how much it would cost to have the kids in daycare if I should die. Thank goodness he did that. Now I'm insured quite well so if I should die first, my hubby won't have to work like a dog to make ends meet. And Vort--men aren't all that bad, even you. It's just that we women are constantly being bombarded by the adversary, telling us we aren't good enough, we have no worth, etc. It's never ending, Vort. This insurance thing is just another way Satan tries to manipulate people into thinking a woman has no value. And as you can see, it works quite well.

I am the YW Personal Progress Specialist in my ward and for our July activity, we are going to do a Poker Run. It works like this: everyone is divided into groups of 5-6 and will be riding their bikes/scooters/walking around town. Each person is given a scorecard and a map of the route (which is about 5 miles long). There are 5 stations placed at intervals along the route. At each station, the girls draw a card out of a hat and write on their scorecard what they got. They also play a simple game (like pitching horseshoes or lawn darts, Minute To Win It games, etc.) and write that score on the scorecard. The object is to, after going to all five stations, either draw a winning poker hand or get the highest scores on the games. Prizes are awarded to the best poker hand and the highest scores at each of the games. To modify for church use, we are using PP cards like Value Project Completed, Required Value Experiences Completed, Additional Value Experiences Completed, I Haven't Started Yet, and What's Personal Progress? Never Heard Of It. They must get as many Value Project Completed cards as they can to have a winning "poker" hand. Or you could do a small service project at each station instead of the games. You can also substitute different skills for the games, like ironing a shirt, sewing on a button, frosting a cupcake, or basic first aid. You can modify this many different ways.

I agree completely. In my mind though, I have to redefine it because the word "preside" carries such negative memories/experiences. The words I used are idealistic and are what I hear being taught by the prophet and apostles and read about in the scriptures. However, what is taught and what is practiced are two entirely different things. And, of course, we are taught the ideal for a reason: to use it as the example, the pattern we are to follow. Again, what we do is much different from what we are taught. I see so many women in my area who are controlled/domineered. Their husbands preside with a tight fist and with little to no regard for their wives. These women have no self-esteem, no self-worth, and many are in denial about it. These women have told me numerous times that my husband is far more important than me, and my hopes and dreams don't matter, only his matter. When I have mentioned that this seems wrong to me, they have shrugged it off saying, "That's celestial marriage. What did you expect it to be?" And I also know of many women who refuse to take the lead in their home when their husband is not present. They will not have family prayer or FHE or even call on someone to bless the food. They say it's his responsibility and they will not even attempt to do it. I know of men who will not allow their wives to step in and hold FHE or family prayer when they are out of town or at work. All of these things seem wrong to me. Yes, I know I tend to be an idealist, but these practices are completely off the mark. These practices have been addressed by our stake president several times, but the message isn't getting through. So this discussion has been a curious one for me. I'm glad to see that there are many men who are presiding in a righteous manner. And there are many in my area who are fantastic presiders, my stake president being one of them. I just wish the rest of the knuckleheads would get it together.

To me, the word preside as defined in the dictionary has many negative connotations, which have already been discussed. So I would like to redine it to mean (thanks to those who have already mentioned some of these): shepherd initiate organize oversee guide lead teach assist help bless I think this is more what the Lord had in mind when He gave men the responsibility to preside. This is not weak or spineless. In fact, I daresay it takes far more courage and self-control to do these things than to control and dominate. Men, what do you say? If you were to preside in this manner, would you feel emasculated, spineless, weak? Or do you prefer to preside in this manner? Women, would you sustain someone who presides in this manner? Would you feel controlled/dominated? Or would you feel like an equal partner, respected and valued? As a side note: I consider equality as regarding my opinions, thoughts, feelings, agency, hopes and dreams with the same respect as the man's and given the same weight as the man's.

INFJ 100% - Introverted 50% - Intuitive 12% - Feeling 11% - Judging Interestingly, I am on the verge of making a career change and the test listed two of the careers I am most interested in as the best ones for my personality: Design and Psychotherapist.

Your post reminds me of when I went to Kansas City for a conference and went shopping. I found more modest clothes and swimsuits there than I did in Utah. Of course, it's the bible belt, but still. I also saw my first 5X. And I have to say, the people in Kansas City are really nice. I liked it there. But anyway....DownEast clothes are too tight fitting for my taste. Try good ol' JCPenneys. Or Dillard's--the prices aren't bad if you catch a sale. I do know of some people who like Kohl's. I am not one of them, but some people like their stuff. Happy Shopping!!

I do step aerobics and when I first started working out regularly, I wore my G's. Now I don't. I work up such a sweat during my workout that I feel I am showing disrespect to them. Not to mention, I am moving around so much, it's hard to not have them show. But, when I hike and play softball/volleyball, I wear my G's. It really depends on the activity and how comfortable I feel. And not all workout clothes are immodest. When I work out, I wear a tank top with wide straps that isn't low cut and doesn't show my stomach and mid-thigh length shorts. I'm comfortable, I can still move freely, and I don't get overheated. Most of the women in my step class are LDS and they also go G-less, but are still modest in their work out clothes. It's a personal choice. Try different styles of G's (I prefer the nylon mesh) and try working out with them on and without them. See which feels more comfortable to you.

Oh yeah, THANK YOU ryanh for challenging my rhetorical question. It's nice to know someone actually listened to me. It's also nice to be challenged and pushed to take a stand. Thanks for making me think! Now I need a Coke and an Excedrin cuz all this thinking has given me a headache. :)

Ryanh, I like your thoughts and I like your quotes, too. I'm sorry I was so defensive. Whenever someone questions my thinking, I feel like I have to go to battle just to be heard. I always feel like my thoughts have no validity or value and so I have to fight to prove that I'm not dumb. Of course, you know where that comes from. Little things like this remind me of how much damage has occurred and how much more healing I have yet to do. You’re Not Important To Me. The various nuances of what specifically is communicated might be slightly different, but the end result is the demonstration, the proof that our spouse does not value us. And even if they do in reality value us, their actions speak louder than their words, and have the greater impact on us. How true that is! That's what we all want, isn't it? To matter. To know we are important to someone, anyone. I guess that's the essence of this thread, the realization that to be of importance to someone else, we must first be of importance to ourselves. We cannot afford to think, "I don't matter" as that just digs us deeper into misery. We must think, "I DO matter" and then we will begin to make choices and engage in behaviors that build us up. Those are very hard things to hear and believe when in the middle of great suffering. And yet, those are the very things that will help us the most. I guess we have to come to them in our own time and in our own way. It dawned on me recently part of why that is. I don't think it is something we can just “tune out” unless we have other stronger sources giving us the opposite message (and if we do, watch out for the mental conflict that will cause and the potential to start hating our spouse because of it!!!) I was thinking about this last night. It occurred to me how those changed expectations I mentioned can be damaging if they are taken to an extreme. An example would be substituting alcohol for the affection of a spouse. We have to be careful about what expectations we alter and how much we alter them. And we have to be choosy about what we focus on. Yet, with all that, I'm still keenly aware of what is missing. I'm not sure that will ever go away until the problem is completely resolved and that might take until the next life. I'm afraid my last post made it sound like it was so simple and easy. In fact, it hasn't been remotely easy for me. I've fought, struggled, and drug myself every step of the way. I've resisted so much of this counsel for many, many years. What a waste! Lesson learned. Now I just have to figure out how to maintain this position. How do we maintain this changed perspective, especially when the original problem hasn't been resolved?

I don't disagree with you ryanh. I guess I just see it from a different perspective. You do remember, I am the one living in an abusive marriage. I KNOW attention and affection are real needs, I KNOW people have emotional needs that are "must haves"---I know because I have lived without it!!! I KNOW a persons sense of worth can sink due to neglect, I am the walking poster child for it!!!! But may I humbly share with you a few things I have learned over the course of this marriage? These things may not be easy to understand. I have learned that I can't change my hubby. I can't force him to be something he is not. I have learned that I have to take responsibility for my own needs. I cannot depend on everyone else to meet them for me. I have learned that as long as I am with my hubby, certain real needs are going to be unmet. Will they be unmet forever? No. Eventually, I will have all the desires of my heart and then some, if I remain worthy. It's what I hope and pray for every day of my life. However, in the meantime, I have to live. I guess that's where I draw the line. I know that if I'm going to have any quality of life, I'm going to have to make some adaptations, either that or get a divorce (which is not an option right now) or just remain miserable (which is also not an option). So.....I changed my expectations. I have learned to look for the good where I can. I have learned to meet my own needs as best as I can and make substitutions for them where I can. I have learned that I may have to wait for some of my needs to be met and it'll be OK. I have learned that these changed expectations may not be the desire of my heart, but I can still have a very good, very happy quality of life!! I have learned that I can still thrive in spite of it all!! Is that lowering my expectations? Is that settling? Naive? Foolish? I don't know. Maybe it is. But I do know this: I am not unhappy. I am not defeated. I believe my happiness, my life, is nothing short of a miracle. I believe the Lord has blessed me richly! I believe it is He who has helped me thrive in my present situation. I believe it is He who has provided me with these marvelous coping strategies. They have become powerful weapons in my arsenal and this thread has reminded me of how profoundly grateful I am for them and for all the love and tender mercy the Lord has shown unto me!!!!