sanctuaryave

I have spent hours answering questions, researching finding scriptures and church history only to have them come out and slam the church. Therefore, I guess I’m a little touchy. There are those of you who have had the same experience? So don’t you wag your finger at me. Your explanation and your apology wouldn't have been neccessary had read and included the full quote the first time you posted it. Just as there are "sheep in wolfs clothing" around every bend, I have found there are "conspiracy theorists" behind many friendly attempt to answer questions. Could this be one???

So to paraphrase something I think snow said. Jesus who is the God of the Old testament sent himself to earth and became the God of the new testament. That at least sounds like Jesus and God are the same. If Christ is the head of our domain and Christs father is the head of Christs domain wouldnt Christ father also have Dominion over us? The only way for Christ to have dominion over us is if he is God as Mosiah 3 says he is. Yes....Jesus and God are the same: 2 Ne. 26: 12 12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God; If you can see these as titles of positions...such as Bishop, President etc...it is easier to understand... 2 Ne. 11: 7 7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time. I agree that Jesus and God are the same. I misunderstood...I thought you believed they were not.

So to paraphrase something I think snow said. Jesus who is the God of the Old testament sent himself to earth and became the God of the new testament. That at least sounds like Jesus and God are the same.If Christ is the head of our domain and Christs father is the head of Christs domain wouldnt Christ father also have Dominion over us? The only way for Christ to have dominion over us is if he is God as Mosiah 3 says he is.

Okay then. Who is the God of the New Testament??

How then would you explain this:MOSIAH 3:5-8 5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. 6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men. 7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people. 8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

For a board that preaches tolerance this seems an ugly and intolerant remark.

Hmmm, I have never been asked my views of the Godhead/trinity, nor have I ever gotten the impression that anyone care, though I am sure that it is assumed that I am fairly orthodox in that regard. Also, I have no idea what "member in good standing" means. If you were to be given a calling, say, as a Sunday School Teacher or Auxillary function president, you would probably be asked if you sustained your Church leaders. If you were want to attend the Temple you would be asked if you sustain the President of the Church as prophet, seer and revelator and perhaps by extension that might mean that you accept doctrine as taught by him but there is no acid test such as a required agreement with a 4th century creed that defines you as a member in good standing. "member in goodstanding" is a term I've heard used when talking about Temple-worthiness. I may have misused it. If I have I'm sorry. I've always looked at the "mormon" church as a very "law " driven church. By that I mean one that had definate beliefs and a rigid structure that demanded compliance to even the most minute detail of that belief. To not agree with the group on anything would be to turn your back on the church. What I'm learning is that there are some very basic beliefs and to understand the church one would need to grasp and hold onto these core beliefs. There are also many areas where intrepretation guides a members personal walk with his savior. I am surprised by that. I am not sure why.

Is the belief in 3 seperate beings critical to the "Mormon" belief or could I be a member in good standing believing as I do now?

It's Christ... and a new "title" of "condescension of God" ~serapha~ I was raised believing in the Trinity, 3 in 1 Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I have struggked with the concept that these are 3 seperate entities. As I read the scripture it appears to be saying that Jesus is not a separete entity but rather a lower form of the same god which seems to support the 3 in one. what am I missing?

When It says" Look and behold the condescension of God! 27 "and I looked and beheld the redeemer of the world, of whom my father had spoken..." There are other questions I have as well depending on the answer.

Boy you guys cant even manage civility to your own.

While I cant say I have had the "testimony" regarding the BOM, and some of the beliefs I have had discussions on I cant buy into, It breaks my heart that people who claim to be christian would behave in such a manner. I had no idea that your general conferences(if that is what they are called) were met with such viciousness. I am truly sorry. I will pray Gods protection upon all of you. please know that there are many of us who do regard you as christian and look forward to meeting you in heaven.

I guess I treat this in much the same way Jesus dealt with the adultress. "Let he who is guiltless cast the first stone." He valued her enough then to say..."woman where are your accusers? Go now and sin no more"

You also quoted galations which tells us that the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace etc. Aren't these things feelings? I would argue they are activity...The Mormon church down the road from me demonstrated their love recently when my mother died. They stepped in and helped us send her home. They were kind and compassionate and loving.

Snow.. I don't know how I can convince you that my questions are genuine, my intentions, though understandably suspect, are pure, and my desire to learn the truth is honest. I have apologized for the way I started out since that seemed to be a problem for you and apparently others and even the apology was recieved and dismissed as someone with an agenda. I appreciate your feedback and will attempt to ask questions that draw less fire in the future. I would be interested in knowing specifically what I am wrong about. Could you expand?

Please show me where he was found guilty? While you're at it can you tell me about Oliver Granger? One of the original Three Witnesses, David Whitmer, joined with other prominent church leaders in renouncing Joseph Smith as a fallen prophet over the anti-bank debacle. On the night of January 12, 1838, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon fled on horseback from Kirtland to the shelter of the Missouri Saints in Nauvoo. Smith later claimed that he left "to escape mob violence, which was about to burst upon us under the color of legal process to cover the hellish designs of our enemies." In reality, Smith had left behind $100,000 in debts. Also, the Ohio legislature had charged him with operating an unchartered bank and ultimately fined him $1,000 in absentia. (Unfortunately for the state of Ohio, they had to get in line with dozens of investors who had already brought suit against him.) Once in Nauvoo, Smith declared bankruptcy after transferring lots of his assets to his wives, children, friends, and associates -- altogether totaling 105 people. (In 1844, these transfers were declared fraudulent and illegal.) Can be found at http://www.algonet.se/~daba/lds/abanking.htm Reagrding Oliver Granger: Oliver Granger was the financial agent for the Church who was asked to settle the affairs of the Church in Kirtland, Ohio, after the Saints left that area. His name is included in the Doctrine and Covenants in section 117:12 . Thank you. I few questions. 1. I coldn't find any sources on the website. Do you have any? 2. does a fine mean that a person was found guilty? 3. Can the legislative branch try someone and find them guilty or innocent? any lawyers? pato? There's also this thast bat posted on another thread.. 24 Oct. (1837) An appeals court confirms the conviction and $1000 fine each of Smith and Rigdon for operating an illegal bank. (The Mormon Hierarchy Origins of Power by D. Michael Quinn, page 627) 12 Jan. (1838) Smith and Rigdon flee Kirtland to escape law suits. Before leaving, the prophet dictates a revelation "concerning the trying of the First Presidency" which requires three unimpeachable witnesses and ratification of the decision by a majority of the church's stakes. (ibid) I dont much agree with his tactics but here is some info he provided.

Snow... Let me ask you this... Please be specific. How would you have worded the questions I am asking?

I would agree with you when you say "We should accept them as brothers in Christ and fellow heirs to Gods Kingdom. " I haven't made a decision about this part yet. "I am also convinced in my own heart that the LDS church is not the restored church of God and that their new teachings and docrtines are false. "

"And, that local high priest made you agree to let him apologize for what transpired here? How's that? Did he force you to come in with a false agenda and insult Mormonism or did he force me to recognize it in you, thereby ostensibly offending you? " No, he simply said he was embarrassed and hoped I understood that not all Mormons are like that. and just so we are clear on the facts... "Your insulting me (" I guess you're one of those people the church has to tolerate. Someone they always have to clean up after.") right after you got through complaining that I was rude." I dont recall compaining that you were rude. I defended myself against unwarranted attack. I'm not intending to insult you, I'm making an assumption. Thats kinda what you did isn't it? Why yes, yes it is. "Is that a little like the pot calling the kettle hypocritical? Why yes, yes it is." Only if the kettle actually is a hypocrite. Nuff said?

Please show me where he was found guilty? While you're at it can you tell me about Oliver Granger? One of the original Three Witnesses, David Whitmer, joined with other prominent church leaders in renouncing Joseph Smith as a fallen prophet over the anti-bank debacle.On the night of January 12, 1838, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon fled on horseback from Kirtland to the shelter of the Missouri Saints in Nauvoo. Smith later claimed that he left "to escape mob violence, which was about to burst upon us under the color of legal process to cover the hellish designs of our enemies." In reality, Smith had left behind $100,000 in debts. Also, the Ohio legislature had charged him with operating an unchartered bank and ultimately fined him $1,000 in absentia. (Unfortunately for the state of Ohio, they had to get in line with dozens of investors who had already brought suit against him.) Once in Nauvoo, Smith declared bankruptcy after transferring lots of his assets to his wives, children, friends, and associates -- altogether totaling 105 people. (In 1844, these transfers were declared fraudulent and illegal.) Can be found at http://www.algonet.se/~daba/lds/abanking.htm Reagrding Oliver Granger: Oliver Granger was the financial agent for the Church who was asked to settle the affairs of the Church in Kirtland, Ohio, after the Saints left that area. His name is included in the Doctrine and Covenants in section 117:12 .

Snow Thats okay I haven't bought much of what you have said either. I guess you're one of those people the church has to tolerate. Someone they always have to clean up after. I have spoken to a local high priest here, presented the discussion we had on this forum and he has agreed to sit down with me and help get some answers. Interestingly.. before he agreed to do so he insisted on 2 things. 1) that I prepare for the discussion with some relevant scripture which he provided and 2) that I allow him to apologize for what transpired here on the thread.. Which I agreed to. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Cut to the quick. Why yes, you were willing look past Joseph Smith's full adult life of crimes, breaking the law where ever he went, hanging out with those murderous ruffians the demonic danites, yes, willing to look past it all and look right on to Mormons worshipping the creator of the creator and taking the place of Christ. I get some of these wrong, but you I ain't got wrong. Maybe it is just me, but if I were interested and honest, I would have perhaps said something along the lines of Hey, I heard Joseph Smith was not an honest guy and had been arrested. Does anybody know if he was ever convicted on something? Granted, I have heard mostly from disreputable antiMormon sources but am interested in hearing the other side. What I wouldn't have done is ask set up question, I answers which I already knew and then maybe snide absurd statement like, Who, now you're scarring me cuz you think yoour going to takeover and fire God. That's just me. How's that inner light there burning? Not so brightly? I never asked about Joseph Smith. I know quite a bit about him. I know he was found guilty in Ohio regarding the anti-bank matter and left town while it was under appeal. I had already read about him and formulated an opinion. Someone asked me if I believed he was a prophet. And I gave my honest opinion. I did not attack the church or anyone else. I answered a question honestly that was asked of me. As to my questioning whether the you worship the creator or the one before him... I was unaware that you believe there was a god before god. My whole Life I have been taught that God is God and thats all there is. None before or after. The concept that I can attain Godhood is very new and scary. Why cant you make room for honest questions. I dont want to fight with you.. I thought I was coming here to see if My brother had found something right and true. It has apparently affected his life in a very positive way. I wanted to find out for myself. You know maybe your right... I did have an agenda. Its just not what you want to believe it is. You want me to be here to attack and put down the Mormon church. I wont do that. I just want to see if there is something I'm missing. I guess I have found my answer. I dont want to fight.. I'm just looking for a place to serve. I know my brothers committment to Jesus Christ and I have watched it open and flourish in the church. He went from Drug addict to Elder and the Mormon church stood by him and helped him get there. Thank God he didnt run into your brand of Mormon. Be careful .. you're inward commitment is showing.

Yeah, maybe but I not trying to hide that from anyone. Sure. And I have idiot stamped smack in the middle of my forehead. If you want answers, drop the act and ask. If you are trolling (ill-intentioned) then do it in the open. I haven't hidden from anyone and have been plain and clear speaking in every post. For some reason you are afraid of my questions. All I have asked is for honesty. I have asked and answered honestly. I have my own personal feeling about JS and am even willing to look past them. I just wish, when you are trying to mock and mimic me, you actually try to reflect with some accuracy what I've actually said. You're childish response allows all who read your post to see the true light that burns inside. My brother often refers to an " outward expression of an Inward committment". I assume thats what you've displayed here. In any case I will search elsewhere for the answers I'm looking for. I'm undecided as to whether mormonism is for me. I'm very sure that I dont want to be your brand of mormon... Thanks for the christian charity. BTW...Having never met you I have no idea what is stamped on your forehead. If you think it says idiot....I can live with that!

Well, I was doing that. I'm not sure how to proceed without causing a problem. There are some who seem ready for a fight and I dont want one. I was just looking for answers. The questions may seem difficult or even obnoxious but that was the reason for my apology "with all due respect" up front. I have tried to be repectful and honoring while still asking my questions and giving honest answers to questions asked of me. Regardless... I would like to know what trolling is. Oh and SNOW... My use of the word uncomfortable had nothing to do with questioning the depth of your conviction rather, it was attempt to say in a kind way, you have mistaken my motives, questioned my integrity and are acting like a jerk.

ect.. Wow thanks for the info. It is a lot to digest. I have copied it so I can study it in the morning(I am at work currently) I went to see the movie The TESTAMENT the other day at the visitors center in Kirtland and I must say it was very moving. I have begun to look at the BOM more closely. I also have a brother who is a Mormon Elder with which I have had some discussions. Some of the information I have has come from him and a member of the local priesthood with whom I have been having discussions. I know that there are a world of people out there that want to make horrible remarks and argue just for the sake of argueing. I am asking because I am interested in knowing the truth. I sense that my questions are making people uncomfortable and I apologize for that. It was not my intent. I have asked these questions locally and and have gotten a sense that they are questions they shouldnt talk about. Again I am sorry for causing discomfort or concern. I will seek the answers I need in some other way. Please accept my apologies.