DKM88

HiJolly, not to burst your bubble or give you nightmares...but I think we're probably related. My grandparents are also from the Mexican polygamous colonies. It's possible we aren't related, but if I play the polygamy statistics in a small community like the colonies, I'd bet we are.

I don't think I missed his point. He made the statement, not me. Sure, he veered off the path from his original statement, which ended up being the meat of his statement, but he still started it off with the insinuation. Maybe it was a Freudian slip, but it's a very common viewpoint amongst many in the Church, that nobody can have a witness of the truth except us, because only we have the truth.

How are my claims of the Book of Abraham one-dimensional? I've done nothing but re-state things presented by egyptologists and other professionals, and offered my take on them. Also, I love how you say I don't care about "reality", I only care about the "facts." Also, I'm offended that you are telling me that I'm creating a straw man argument. I felt that he was insinuating something from his statement, and I was simply trying to clarify what he meant. How is that a straw man argument? I think I was saying exactly that...the similarity of "spiritual experience" is amazing. Which is why I said that it's difficult to differentiate between them. If a muslim prays and feels that his religion is true and he feels close to God, I won't tell him it's untrue. I'm sure many on this site would scoff at him behind his back, and it's a major problem in Mormondom. And I'm not attacking LDS beliefs. Simply because I view the LDS beliefs differently than you or others on this forum, does not mean I'm attacking anybody. I feel that I'm offering a different side of the coin. But I realize that we've all been conditioned to respond a certain way. I just ask that you realize that I'm not attacking the Church.

But for him to believe that a Muslim can have a spiritual witness to the truthfulness of Islam, I have to "produce" one for him. Come on...really? lol

So instead of addressing the question, you just say that it's not possible. Wow. Are you saying that the only people in the world that can receive a spiritual witness are Mormon? Seriously? Do you realize what you're saying?

Uh, thanks. I have a question for you. What if I pray about Bigfoot and I believe with every fiber of my being that he is real by the power of a spiritual witness. Am I wrong? Here's another question. A man prays in Iran and receives a profound spiritual witness that Islam is the one true religion. Is he wrong? Could it be that a clearness of thought could be a spiritual witness? I believe that I've received that since studying the Book of Abraham, and it's been stunning. Is your spiritual witness better or more valid than mine? Is your spiritual witness better or more valid than the Iranian muslim?

Wow. I think you pretty much nailed it. Excellent analogy as well. One thing that has been discouraging (and even disturbing) to me is that as I've questioned things openly, people seem to either go into attack mode or simply don't want to hear what I have to say, and even sometimes deny that the sky is blue. I don't know...it's weird how life changes and you start to see things differently.

Absolutely. I'm probably going to go to bed, so I'll check back tomorrow afternoon and see what you've come up with. Good luck to you, my friend. I'm being serious. I haven't found any arguments that aren't flawed, so if you find one, awesome! You will have helped me tremendously.

I understand the anti stuff. I'm just bringing in facts, and its true that many antis use those facts to their advantage, I'm sure. But I still view them as facts, so we need to tackle them a different way. As far as TR questions go, I'd say that I do have faith in JC. What I mean by faith is a hope that it's all real, that he's my savior. Do I believe that I could be wrong? Sure! I mean, there are millions of muslims around the world that claim spiritual manifestations that tell them that Islam is the true religion, and how can I fault them for that? I don't see it any differently than me claiming to have faith in JC. My belief that JS was a prophet, I always say that I hope so. It usually gets a smile out of the Bishop or SP. Same with the restored gospel. I say I have a hope. I'm sorry if it offends some people that I won't say that "I KNOW" these things, because nobody "knows" anything.

I continue my study and prayer. This is all part of it. So you're saying I can't be a fence sitter? There is no middle ground in Mormonism? Can I believe that it's man-made, that it's a great church, and raise my kids in it, and still get to the celestial kingdom? Isn't what God wants me to do is seek truth? If I earnestly do so and this is what I come up with, will God fault me for it?

Not at all. You notice that I continued to use the term statistics in my own assessment. I apologize if you didn't pick that up.

Provide one argument that isn't flawed. Does that work for you?

Oh come on. The only reason I brought this up is because you made a reference to nobody being able to take the church down after all these years. I was simply making a reference to the fact that oftentimes as members of the church we look at it like this ball of fire blazing through the world at light speed, when in reality it's not the case. The numbers we see are statistics. And we all know what Twain said about statistics... And yes, I'll stick with that statistic. Have you ever been to church outside of the Western US? In my mission most of the branches I was in had around 400-500 members on the list with about 10-50 actually going. So yeah, I'm relatively confident. I could be wrong though, it's just a guess.

I'm not referring to anti Mormons. This is a major problem with many Mormons when discussing issues in the church. As soon as the position towards the church is less than positive, it immediately is dismissed as "anti", which really isn't the case here. But please, tell what exactly that I've said makes my assessment incomplete. Aside from the "spiritual witness" that you have, I haven't seen anything where you've filled in the gaps to my so-called stitched together story. I'm not trying to be rude, just looking for answers. Do me a favor and do some research on the actual membership numbers of the Church. They are very secretive about this, but everything you can find points to major issues in this area. We are told the Church is growing, but reality is there are probably somewhere around 2.5 million members that are active. The Church will always grow, depending on how numbers are represented. I think the Church may be in some trouble, and they know it. They are working to try and keep people active, especially the YSA and SA crowd. I'm not looking for an argument here, but just look into it. As far as "taking Joseph down", lol, that's not my intent here. There is ample evidence/stories that confirm his prophetic calling as well as show him to be a fraud. There's no way to really know 100% what the answer is. Is it possible that he was a prophet? Sure. Is it possible that he was a fraud? Depends. I believe that whether Joseph was really a prophet or not, HE believed he was. And frankly, people that have nothing to do with the Church don't care whether he was a liar or a prophet. The only people you see debating about this are historians with connections to the church, ex-mormons, mormon apologists, and fence-sitting mormons. This is a VERY small group of people. So aside from the conversations that you might find in a mormon community, you'll rarely, if ever, hear anyone talk about Joseph Smith and what he did. On a side note, since you clandestinely brought it up, I'm actually related to Mark Hofmann. I don't know the guy, but my impression is he was in the forgery business for the money. He didn't start killing people until he was being found out. I'm not sure why he was brought into this, but whatever. So when I can't get an answer that make sense beyond the "maybe it was inspired but not translated" and "pray", I'm arguing in circles? Do you realize how ridiculous all of these responses are? Sure, in the church we understand them and they make sense to us, but put yourself in an investigators shoes. You have questions about the validity of the Book of Abraham. Now read the apologist responses. If the investigator has any critical thinking skills at all he's running the other direction. What I'm saying is as members of the Church there has to be a better way at tackling this issue than what we have, because it doesn't work.

I think you're partially correct. I feel pretty closed off. Probably because I've heard all the responses given already, and they just don't make sense to me. Sorry if I came off as attacking. And I don't accept anti-Mormon theories. I just search for fact and truth. I don't give heed to people that actively try and destroy an organization that does so much good in the world.

Because the thread was about the Book of Abraham, not the Book of Mormon. It was my attempt to see if I was missing something in my studies. Oftentimes it's a good idea to consult others that may have studied the same material or have had a similar journey.

No, because I've read through all of the the evidence presented by FAIR. I was just giving the accuser the opportunity to back up his attack on my own intelligence.

Nobody has given me any advice that makes sense. Sometimes you can't just pray your way out of things. At least I'm not able to. And it appears you're right. You have no power but to pray for my soul.

Lol, ok. Go ahead and direct me. Where are their arguments NOT flawed and their evidence NOT far fetched?

I've read through the FAIR evidence, and it's really just a bunch of far-fetched grabs at trying to connect archaeology to the Book of Mormon. For example, horses and tapirs? Come on.

The archaeological methods, technology, etc., are much more advanced now. There is no reason, in my mind, that at least a shred of evidence for the Book of Mormon shouldn't have shown up already. People were searching for Biblical evidence with stone age technology compared to what we have today. Dr. Michael Coe recently spoke about this. I leave the possibility open that there may be some evidence that shows up, but I firmly believe that with the civilizations described, there would already be something that has come up, but there's hasn't. As far as the spirit is concerned, maybe God has never deemed me worthy of his holy spirit. Or maybe I'm spiritually dead and I can't tell the difference between emotions and the spirit. You'd think that our loving Heavenly Father would provide a more foolproof way to help his children know he's there, though.

No, I don't believe Moses spoke to a burning bush. It's possible that it could have been a dream, but a burning bush is a bit childish. We understand magic isn't real, so the modern world rejects such stories. Back in the day it was perfectly acceptable for someone to read that and accept it. See what you're doing? You're justifying the lack of evidence. I completely understand where you're coming from. I really do. I just can't do that anymore. Like I said before, 1+1=2, not 3. If I'm told by a Prophet of God that something is a literal truth, I can't discover that it's not and just say "oh, well maybe he didn't mean it that way." Why would God choose such a method to deliver revelation? It doesn't make sense. Why would he deliver something to Joseph, knowing that Joseph had no ability to translate it, but tell him that he did, have Joseph receive revelation, knowing that Joseph had no idea what he was "translating" was simply revelation and he wasn't translating anything, only to have it discovered over 100 years later that Joseph was completely wrong? Do you see what I'm saying?

You're right. And the Bible is almost as faulty as the Book of Mormon. The difference is the Bible refers to places that we have found substantial archaeological evidence for. Of course, there is still the necessary faith required to believe that the stories are divine in nature. The Book of Mormon doesn't even provide archaeological evidence. The Bible is not entirely correct. Neither is the Book of Mormon. Here's the problem. as GBH stated many times, either everything is true or its all a farce. No middle ground. And I have had what you call "spiritual experiences." I've felt them from reading the Book of Mormon. I've felt it while reading other novels. I've felt it while watching Braveheart and Rudy. There really is no way to tell the differences between those feelings. Unless you can enlighten me on the intricacies of it all?

Lol, but that's just the thing. The papyri really are a bunch of pictures and symbols. He got the picture wrong. How is telling us the story on an Egyptian papyri any different than translation? It IS translation. He translated a picture that the Egyptians understood in the hieroglyphic language and told us what it meant. And he was wrong. I accept that.

I appreciate the response, but I'm not sure this applies to me. I consider myself very mature in the gospel. And I do have problems with the teachings. I thought for a long time it was just the way I interpreted them. But I've matured to the point that I no longer believe that. It seems from your thread that you had questions, but learned to turn it off and just believe. For example, it was God's will that Joseph Smith married women that were already married to faithful members of the Church. Do you accept that statement? I don't. I think there are a lot of things that you were probably learning that you've shut off. If that works for you, by all means, continue on your path. I can't do that, though.