DKM88

Right. And you were taking my Book of Abraham quote (straight from the Pearl of Great Price) and apparently applying it to the Kinderhook plates. So it appears that we're not on the same page (or plate, if you will).

I'm not sure if you are mocking me or if you are serious when you talk about archaeological proof. There is absolutely archaeological proof for things. For example, the Book of Mormon claims that there are certain weapons, chariots, animals, food, that only existed in the old world and has never shown up in any archaeological dig. If we found archaeological evidence that steel swords were used by civilizations in the Americas, that would be archaeological proof that at least one thing that the Book of Mormon claims is true. Again, I'm not sure how my statement is an oversimplification of the papyri. I think that the issues with the papyri are pretty straightforward. As far as the burial ground analogy, let's say you did all of your extra research and you couldn't justify or twist my words in a way that would confirm there was an actual burial ground under my house. What then? Do you just say that I was speaking metaphorically, even if I said that there was a literal burial ground? Would you say that even though there wasn't a burial ground, God told me there was one for some other purpose that you can learn from, therefore accepting me a spiritual person and not a liar?

What I mean is the historicity of the gospel. Of course nobody can prove or disprove Jesus' divine mission. What I mean is this: 1. If the Book of Mormon is a literal history, there would be archaeological proof, which there isn't. 2. If the Book of Abraham was true, the translation would prove to be correct (not exactly archaeology, I know) I didn't bring up archaeology, the other guy did. I was simply saying that if I tell you that there under my house there is an ancient Indian burial ground because God told me there was one, then you excavate it and find nothing, but I tell you to still believe me, you probably will think I'm either crazy or some sort of a con man. I can accept that the gospel is true (or even that it isn't) and still be an active, productive member of the Church without accepting all the BS that requires so many mental gymnastics to accept it or things that I'd just have to ignore.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that the scroll doesn't match what's in the Pearl of Great Price. If you are talking about what it says, then obviously you're right. It doesn't talk about Abraham. But if you're talking about the actual scroll, the fascimile in the PofGP is exactly what we see in the Joseph Smith Papyri. The Church readily admits that this is the papyri. The only differences is where there were damages and tears, which made it even more obvious that Joseph screwed it up, ie the head of the "priest" should have been the head of a jackal, not a human. But Joseph didn't know this, the piece was missing, and he assumed it was a human, so he put a human head. I can accept the fact that the Book of Abraham is way off base. I can accept the fact that Joseph got a bit too into it and messed up, translating when he wasn't told to by God. Maybe he just thought too much of himself, I don't know. The problem I have is the Church still considers this holy scripture when it's proven to be false.

Smith said it, and it was wrong. He said it was from Abraham and it told of his story in Egypt, and it didn't. There's no getting around that. So yeah, it does kind of screw things up. Thanks for the condescending history lesson, but I know all about Church history and what went on. The difference, it seems, is that I've read all the accounts given, not just the apologetic account. And it seems that the more I look into these things, the apologetic accounts are seeming to hold less and less weight. If the gospel is true, wouldn't it be proved by archaeology? I don't get it. How can so many people see things that don't make sense or are blatantly wrong and still say, "I've got faith, so I believe 1+1=3, because it feels good when I say it." Don't you see how asinine that is?

No, I hadn't seen the video, but I have now. It seems that according to FAIR they made mistakes in the video. But it still doesn't negate the fact that Joseph said that it was "A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt.—The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus." All of the prophets have taught this, that it was written by Abraham himself, until the scholars of the Egyptian language translated it and found that it had nothing to do with Abraham and was simply a funeral text. It goes even deeper with the translations. For example, the Kinderhook plates. I know that we're taught that Joseph never "fell for it." But if you look at the records of the Church, it was claimed they were legitimate historical records and Joseph did partly translate them. After it was revealed that they were a hoax, the Church denied it and said that the men claiming to have manufactured the Kinderhook plates could not be trusted and that the plates were real. In 1990 (I could be wrong on the date), scientists got permission to use destructive methods on the one kinderhook plate left and it was found to be from the 1800's, not an ancient record. Son now we have two instances of the Prophet failing to do what he claimed to do. After a while things stop making sense in a literal, spiritual, the Church-is-true kind of way. I'm just sick and tired of all of the justifications from the apologist side. It's like for me to keep my faith I have to do so many mental gymnastics and believe that 1+1=3, and that even though it doesn't make sense now, just be faithful and God will reveal why it's 3. Whereas on the other side of the coin by accepting the Church is man-made because 1+1=2, everything falls into place. I don't know what to do anymore.

I feel like I've been on a tailspin for about a year and I'm about done with it all. What I mean by that is I feel like I've lost virtually all of my faith for a number of reasons, all being historical/doctrinal issues with the church. Now I feel like I've got the back breaker...the Book of Abraham. It's widespread knowledge (apparently) that the Book of Abraham was completely wrong. What I mean is that now that we have scholars that can actually read the Egyptian language, we know that the Book of Abraham was simply a funeral text and nothing more. In other words Joseph Smith was completely wrong in this translation. There's no way of getting around this. There's not faith involved. We have the manuscript and it's been proven wrong. My question is how do you wrap your mind around this? How do you come to terms with this and still feel good about Joseph Smith and the validity of everything else he did (or any of the other prophets for that matter)? Thank you in advance for the responses. I'm sorry of my post isn't all that clear, but I'm dead tired physically, intellectually, and spiritually right now. Any help would be appreciated.