inactivetx

Hi! It's been a few years so let me double check your answers PrisonChaplain. BTW - I was JW about 14 years ago. Look for the smilies to see additional comments. I grew up around Jehovah's Witnesses and have attended a few Kingdom Hall meetings, and even a convention. Yet, I'm certainly not the final expert--and am in fact, a hostile witness. But, here's my take: 1)that JW belive that they will live forever on the earth and if you fall away from the Jw then god will kill you?? TRUE. All non-JWs will be annihilated at the Day of Judgment. 2)JW cant have friends outside of JW? Acquaintences, yes, but not friends. "What has light to do with darkness. 3) DONT BELIVE THAT CHRIST IS A SON OF GOD?TRUE. Jesus was a human man, a great teacher, and prior to his birth, was likely the Angel Michael. JWs do not believe in ANY form of Trinity and do not essentially deny the divine nature of Jesus, but rather believe Jesus is the first true Creation of Jehovah God and does Jehovah's bidding and thus is not the Almighty or THE God to worship. 4) are banned to vote? and cant support the government full stop? TRUE. All governments are of the god of this world, Satan. 5) that Jw belive that every Religion is of Satan!! and esp belive that christians are!!!!TRUE. Christianity is often referred as Christendom, and cast in a negative light. 6)when the 2nd coming comes that every one that is Not a JW will be killed?TRUE. Go to the website and it will tell you that not only JWs, but also those who believed prior to the establishment of the Watchtower Society, and also those yet living who may come to the true faith. Bottom-line: Today you must be or become JW. Actually, the second coming is already here. JW believe Jesus returned 'invisibly' to rule the Kingdom in 1914. When the war of Armedgon (sp) comes, then the wicked (ie, Non-JW) will be destoryed. If you have not heard the 'good news', then you get a second chance card (like LDS Paradise) to hear the gospel in the ressurection in the Paradise earth. If you deny it there or fall to Satans temptation after the 1,000 year, then you are uterrly destroyed. 7 JW belive that birthday,Christmas,Easter,mothers day. fathers day, are BANNED and are a PAGAN CELEBRATION TRUE. Ironically, their historical information is largely true, but their conclusions have only gained traction with Halloween celebrations--many Christians no longer celebrate it. 8)JW are not allowed tp partake of the bread and wine ie the Sacrament ?I'm sketchy on this, but understand that only the JWs who are part of the 144,000 are allowed to actually partake, and that at most meetings none are. True - and the 'Memorial' only takes place once a year to correspond with the Jewish calendar's passover. 9)JW not allowed to see RELATIVES if not a JW?This one is probably FALSE, UNLESS the relative was a Jehovah's Witness and became apostate (left the faith). 10)JW dont belive that all christians are part of the new covenant.Only a Elect group of 144,000 are belived to go to heaven these are said to include the apostles but not FAITHFUL MEN OF OLD ?I'm not sure on this one. Only the 144,000 go to heaven. All other JWs will live on a paradicical earth. 11)BANNED FROM GOING INTO ANY OTHER CHURCH AS THAY BELIVE ITS OF THE DEVIL?TRUE 12) JW will be Disfellowshiped if they break the rules? Depends on the rule and severity of the breaking, but potentially true. If a JW wishes to repent, they need to submit to a displinary hearing in which their sincerity will be questioned and it will decided what action up to and including disfellowship will occur. A person can also 'disassociate' or rather fade away and are treated as if they were disfellowshiped without the hearing (like me!) 13)JW not allowed to christen their children? have blood transfusions? not allowed to do higher education and the pursuit of a career are frowned upon????? All pretty true. Baptism is only for believers and those willing and currently participating in field service (knocking on doors, bible studies, etc) so children aren't encouraged to be baptized. The reason for not pursuing a higher education is a)shows greed , why want a hirer paying job other than to buy stuff?, B) this system is going to end so spend time in field service than in classes. 14) JW women are not allowed to hold a position of any kind in thier congregation? banned from saying Grace at the dinner table?? unless there is a JW MAN THERE!!Don't know. Actually, on the prayer issue, a woman can say a prayer during a bible study but not during congregation meetings on Sunday. If she prays or teaches anyone with a baptized male publisher (JW) then she must where a head covering during the session. A woman can give a talk in the theocratic ministry school, but not the Sunday meeting, and when she does so it is presented to another sister or child on the stage and does not directly address to congregation (because there are men there). 15) JW door to door ministry is compulsory??? Let's just say the ole spirituality will be seen as slipping, and the member will be considered as becoming inactive, should the door to door work reduce or stop. Can't get baptized without it and your lack of activity will be noticed by others and your invites to social situations will diminish. Hope that helps! InActiveTx

Ray, I haven't found one good scientist that thinks that praying is the best way to discover the cure to cancer. People have been praying to have their diseases go away for millenia, and it wasn't until cold hard science discovered things like bacteria, virus and then things like penicillin that we made any significant inroads. Same thing applies to everything in this world. Praying for knowledge is just the lazy way out. First study, use science, do the research, then, if it makes you feel better pray. But its the former that will solve the problem, not the latter. History shows that when ever theology tries to "one up" science, theology always loses. So, ignore science at your peril. Better not tell the Christian Scientists! InActiveTx Okay - what evidence do you have that Joseph Smith was following a pre-thought-out story line? I don't have any evidence. I was just throwing the question out there as I said as "devil's advocate". Anyways - to continue with the 'advocating' I bet Stephen King could work out a plot over four years and dictate the book rather coherently within 60 days. Just a thought. For the record - The BoM is scripture. I just think the 60 day translation period isn't a strong argument, personally. InActiveTx

I also came from an Episcopal background but don't feel the church is 'pagan'. Granted I keep quiet during the Nicence (sp) Creed but have no real problem with the Apostle's Creed. When I really miss the Episcopal Church is at Easter. The LDS Church doesn't do enough to celebrate the season while the other church has a full week long list of events each bringing the joy of Christ's atonement to life. My dh is not a member and we compromise on my re-activity in the LDS by attending the Episcopal service at 8:30 as a family and then I attend LDS Sacrament at 11:30. The contrast is quite stark and I feel the spirit so much more at Sacrament. InActiveTx

Everytime I read about the 'challenge' and am always amazed that a critic of the Church doesn't point out that Joseph Smith was visited by Moroni FOUR years before the coming of the BoM. That gives a person a long time to forumulate a story line. In light of this, the '60 day' translation time frame could be a stretch. Anyways, just to play devil's advocate. I think the BoM is scripture regardless.

Hi - I'm Back! LOL Anyways, I completed the BoM reading challenge by reading 5 pages a day and determined that if I did the same with the Bible I would finish in a year so I started Jan 1st with Genesis. So, what do I read in Chapter 12 : Abraham tells the official that Sarah is his sister and not his wife. Well, lo and behold, he does the same EXACT thing in chapter 20 with a different official! So I guess scriptures do repeat themselves. Just wanted to share that observation. It is rather enlightening to read the OT after reading the BoM and note the similarities as well as the differences. Thanks for letting me comment. InActiveTx

Hi! I was a JW (disassociated) about 14 years ago. I can try and answer your questions. Inactive

Just wanted to pop in and let you all know I am reading the responses and thank you for attempting to answer my concerns. I can only do so much with a 5 month old & a 3 year old - it's enough to read the BoM, much less write about it on a message board KWIM? Have only 15 pages left btw. Anyways, I found another odd thing in 3 Nephi - the 'Lords Prayer' is incomplete - why? Can anyone recommecd a good commentary? Again thanks for the replies! Inactive.

thanks for your reply and your concern. However, I have a different take on the whole grace vs. works debate and would rather not discuss it here in this thread - a new one maybe? I know that Jesus died for me personally - its hard not to read any standard work and not get this message loud and clear. But thanks for reminder. InActiveTx

To put it simply, "adieu" was the word Joseph Smith chose to use to represent what Nephi? (was it?) said or meant when he said what he said.For those who don't know, a prophet usually speaks with his own words while expressing the thoughts he is given from the Lord, through the power of the Holy Ghost. Or in other words, our Lord and the Holy Ghost don't always give prophets the exact words to use when giving inspiration and revelation, and instead they usually give thoughts and impressions which are interpreted into words by the prophet who receives them. And for those who want some evidence of this, study the words of the prophets and you should be able to notice that every prophet has their own way of saying or writing certain things, even though they are all basically saying the same things, and even though some prophets give a little more detail or express their thoughts in words that are easier for others to understand. And btw, Joseph Smith was fairly familiar with the Bible both before and after he was ordained as an apostle of our Lord, and sometimes he chose to use some of those words in the Bible to translate what the Nephites had written in their scriptures. For instance, the Nephites didn't speak in the King James vernacular either. Anyway, you simply need to understand the process whereby we receive revelation, while trying to understand what someone says to you when they explain how they believe it was done. ← I agree with your analysis, Ray which is why I don't get bent out of shape with horses, cement or adieu. Joseph could have simply used the word(s) from HIS frame of reference to express what the Spirit was telling him. But this is inadequate to describe the use of old/new testament scenarios appearing in the BoM. In my example, it is simply more than just 'Jesus teaching timeless truths'. It is an almost word for word quote of Christ talking to the Pharisees with just the names changed to charge the guilty - 100 years before Christ uttered the complaint. In Ether a glaring example: Ether 8: 10 10 And now, therefore, let my father send for Akish, the son of Kimnor; and behold, I am fair, and I will dance before him, and I will please him, that he will desire me to wife; wherefore if he shall desire of thee that ye shall give unto him me to wife, then shall ye say: I will give her if ye will bring unto me the ahead• of my father, the king. Compare with Mark 6 and the beheading of John the Baptist by a tempting dancing daughter: How interesting that an almost identical scenario occurs twice in scripture? Don't get me wrong - I WANT to believe. I am one of the strange people who love Mormonism but can't quite make myself believe it lock, stock and barrel. But I am trying. Situations like these don't make my job any easier. InActiveTx

Hi! Hope someone can help. I am an inactive member and am trying to gain a testimony. So, I have taken up Hinkley's challenge to read the BoM and everything is going smoothly until I hit a speed bump and I find whatever small testimony I was gaining being whisked away in an instant - leaving a bad taste in my month. Here is an example: Alma 38:13-14: "Do not pray as the Zoramites do, for ye have seen that they pray to heard of men, and to be praised for thier wisdom. Do not say: O God, I thank thee that we are better than our brethren..." Hello?! Didn't Jesus say this exact thing to the Pharasees 100 year years later??? in Luke 18:11 (btw the footnotes direct you to Luke 18:13)? So, was Jesus quoting Alma? or was Alma quoted Jesus 100 years in the past? It's these little moments of deja vous in the BoM that make me go hmmmm. And don't get me started on the book of Ether. Last time I read that book, I put away the Book of Mormon for months! So am I nervous about reading it again. Is there a good reason why the BoM relies so heavily in its narrative on the Old/New Testament stories? I truly want a testimony of the BoM. I have prayed, and am obviously reading and occassional get the warm feeling of the spirit like w/ Alma 32 or other doctrinal passages, but then it is torn to shreads over things like this. Can anyone help me? TIA - InactiveTx

I agree heartily. Membership isn't just a game or social move. It means you have taken covenants!!! ← Thanks for the welcome, Ray! I agree with Please that one's relationship with God (the covenants) is paramount which is why I take my doubts seriously. I don't want to be part of an organization claiming to be the "true" church and yet is not. Many aspects make perfect sense, like the plan of salvation, yet other things don't click and sound rather contrived. I need to reconcile the two to confirm I am following God's will and not just playacting because I like it and feel confortable. One's religion is not a club but rather a relationship with the Almighty. Hope that made sense.

Hi! Been a long time since I have been on this board, so I hope ya'll will welcome me back. The OP struck a chord with me as I feel like an 'investigator' since resuming my activity after 6 years. First off, during my baptismal interview 9 years ago, I was asked by the missionary leader (don't remember the title, but not the bishop) if I believed in the BoM and I said No - I did not have a testimony of it yet and he let me through anyway. Now whether this was just a way to increase numbers or if he felt that I would eventually gain a testimony is unknown. But the reason I can relate with the OP is that I STILL don't have a testimony of BoM. I read it and sometimes get it (like Alma, Nephi 3) and then totally lose it in Ether ( what's with the brother of Jared stuff - couldn't a man who saw Christ have a name?!) And don't get me started on the 'and it came to pass' used by every single writer! so I oscillate between the two - utter nonsense to inspired. And Yes, I have prayed - a lot - and read the book completely 3 times and plan to follow the prophets challenge to read it again. If I did gain a testimony it would probably be based on the teaching of the BoM - the spirit of the work - rather than the letter of the work., in other words, it's not true history. Now in regards to the Homosexuality - I really don't see the Church moving on this one since the whole plan of salvation and exhaltation relies on getting married. The Bible/BoM/etc. are pretty blatant that marriage is between a man and woman and sexually relationships are only between married people, that pretty much excludes any form of fornication including homosexuality generally if not specifically. I love the LDS church - it satisfies me on many levels which is why I am continually drawn to it, but yet feel hypocritical, as the OP, in that I haven't bought the whole package and thus feel the need to find a faith that more "fits" my understanding. So I am trying to rationalize whether one needs to buy the package in order to be a part of it. HTH to know you are not alone! Trin

Wow - didn't mean to step on toes here 1 - since I didn't attend Sacrament yesterday, I was not aware that it was a regular sacrament meeting. I was told it would be a F&T meeting several weeks back. I was mistaken. I feel much better knowing the meeting was focused on the sacrafice of our Savior. 2 - I believe I do understand the atonement. My concern was that it is a word that is used frequently in the Church, so much so that it becomes ordinary and loses it's true meaning. I think it would be fair to focus on the meaning of the atonement in an in-depth way and Easter provides the perfect opportunity. I understand that bearing testimony is giving honor and recognition of the atonement, but so would a study of the atonement - why and how - would be equally beneficial. Again, my frustration with this matter is due to my religious past where Easter was a week long process where each action of the Passion is re-acted in a physical way from the waving of Palm Branches to foot washing and institution of the sacrament, the stripping of the altar, the Vigil, looking upon the cross and hearing Christ's plea to the Father as he dies. Reading as a congregation the trial of Christ and having to admit that yes, I, demanded His Death. And then experience the jublilation when the empty tomb was found and hearing of the apostles visitations by Christ and take joy in the knowledge that He lives! And because He lives, I live and have hope and joy for the future. My sins can be forgiven and I can return to the presence of Heavely Father. And after 40 days of Lent this week is a truely heartwrenching and jubliant journey. It is this experience that I miss in the LDS church. Nancy

Happy Easter Everyone! Thanks for the suggestions to personally imbelish LDS celebrations of Easter by attending other churches, etc, but I guess what concerns me is why should I have to? Why doesn't The Lord's Church put greater emphasis on this Holiday? As I mentioned I didn't make it to Sacrament meeting today but it would have been interesting to see how many mentioned the death & ressurection of the Savior instead of just the 'atonement', KWIM? How many times do LDS focus on how Christ accompished the atonement rather than just that it happened? I guess that is truly what I think is missing from LDS Easter this year. Again - Happy Easter! (btw - the blueberry pancakes at the in-laws were delicious!) Nancy

Thanks for all the responses. I was just thinking on the way home from Sacrament meeting this morning that next Sunday (Easter) is a Fast & Testimony meeting! What are they thinking? Fasting on Easter?!? Fortunately(?!) I am pregnant so don't observe the fast, but come on, you are asking kids to wait until dinner to dive into their Easter Baskets (or do LDS have Easter Baskets?). I won't be attending Church next Sunday since I will at my in-laws pigging out on Easter Brunch & chocolate bunnies! LOL! I think what I might do when my son & future child are older (or even born LOL) is to follow the nights of Holy Week but as a week-long family home evening. We'll see about this next year.

Hi - haven't been on the board in a while so thanks in advance for reading. I am an adult convert that has recently re-activated after a six year absence and during that interim I had attended my former faith, the Episcopal Church. Now to my concern: In the Episcopal Church, nothing has more ritual and formality than Holy Week - Palm Sunday, Holy M, T, W, Maudy Thursday, Good Friday, Great Vigil and, finally, Easter Sunday keeps us quite busy following in the footsteps of the Savior during his last days of mortality and ultimate ressurection. I had previously attended all services and was caught up in the spirituality of the whole thing. This is the first year in many I haven't kept Lent nor plan to attend Holy Week services, but I feel a void since the ward isn't really doing anything special to replace it. Becuase of conference, Easter Sunday will be a F&T meeting. Where is the celebration? honor? recognition? I had asked a life-long LDS what special stuff does the ward do and there is only a stake choir performance and special Sunday School lessons. That's it?! She commented that since LDS honor the atonement everyday, a special service isn't really necessary. Any other converts having Easter withdrawl? Nancy

I like the idea of dismissing the children to primary after the passing of the sacrament - or maybe after the youth speaker? In the Episcopal church (sorry, only other refeence point :)) the 'sacarament' part is at the end of the service and the children from nursery are returned at this point so the family can receive communion. As far as adult missing the service, in the EC, a paid babysitter is used. While I know that the LDS church isn't going to pay money to anybody, but a rotating system could be used where a member only does it once a month or so. No lessons, just free play time and piping in the talks sound like a great idea, too! I am only talking about toddlers-preschoolers: school age children should be able to sit through a 70 minute meeting. As a follow-up, I attended again this past Sunday, I guess someone heard me :) The kids didn't seem quite as restless and the bishops cranked the microphone so I didn't have to strain to hear the speakers. I do miss the between speaker hymn though, they don't seem to do it at this ward. I need to get up and move around every once in a while. I guess with a toddler, I never get the chance to just sit for an hour and I am not used to it LOL!

Seems a lot of people can relate LOL! As for being inactive, this was my first Sacrament meeting in 6 years so, I am on my way back! I understand that the LDS is a family Church and children need to be trained, yadda, yadda, yadda, but I still really don't understand why nursery isn't offered during Sacrament like it is for Sunday School and Preisthood/RS meetings. Getting the toddlers and pre-school kids together would be great! Thanks for the advise on sitting in the front - I just wanted to be inconspicious on my first Sunday back. I don't know how I'll get my non-member husband to Chruch now, since he freaks if our son makes a noise in a resturant LOL! And trust me, 2 years olds are going to make noise!

Hi! Haven't been around here lately but wanted to share my experience. I am (was) inactive LDS and after six years away, went to a Sacrament meeting this past Sunday and it was sort of like I remember it. I sat in the overflow room and I could barely hear or rather, concentrate on the speakers becuase the kids were going wild! About 80% of the congregation was young adults with elementary aged kids or younger (much younger) kids and they had free rein on the place - running around, making noise and parents shuttling kids in and out of the room. (also noticed 2 adults literally asleep!) I usually attend an Episcopal Church for the early morning service where our 2 year old son is the ONLY child in attendance (about 40 people total) and even then, he spends most of the service in the nursery! So attending the LDS meeting was quite a change. I left my son and husband at home since the 2pm meeting time is right smack in the middle of my son's naptime and I have been a parent long enough to know that naps are sacred! I joined the Church in a college town and while I didn't attend a singles ward, I didn't notice so many babies and children disrupting things. Maybe my memory is shot, but just wanted to know if this is the norm for everyone else. I'll try and be more active on this board - been spending lots of time elsewhere (CF, FAIR, etc) sorry

Ray - I am sooo confused (probably because I haven't gone to temple yet for anything!). Are saying that when I do make it to temple some day a) If I haven't been sealed to my father (non-LDS, dead - no ordinances yet), then b: I could be sealed to my grandfather (non-LDS, dead - no ordinances yet), but if he rejects the gospel then c) I could be sealed to my great-grandfather and so on and so on and so on? When does all this sealing action occur?

Hi! I was wondering about the temple recommend questions (never been personally) and the bishop/stake pres asks you if you keep the WoW, are they asking if you have partaken of ANY coffee, tea, tabaco, etc during the past year? I mean is a glass of bubbly on New Years Eve enough to be banned from the Temple? Just curious.

Even if Adam and Eve sinned in innocence - God is a god of justice and all sin whether known or unknown must be acknowledged and accounted for. Therefore, God called Adam and Eve on their transgression and announced to them their plan of redemption (Gen 3).

Snow, I heartily agree with the first part of your post regarding the creation account.But... I am not sure I agree with your statement that you can believe whatever you want as an LDS. At baptism and temple recommend interviews you do have to state your belief in many LDS doctrines. To even become a Mormon you need to have some basic beliefs like in God, Jesus Christ, the atonement, the restoration, BoM and prophets, or do I not remember my interview correctly? Unless, you are suggesting that you keep hush,hush about any heresy and simply quote the party line to any who ask [don't ask, don't tell]? But is that truly being Christian? Interested in your thoughts. Great discussion btw!

Didn't mean to confuse - my post was supposed to expose the folly of humans using the 'God can do anything' rationale to explain stuff when are other sound methods of responding to the issues. That God can do anything doesn't follow that he does everything. Hope that clarifies. B)

I think the 'God can do anything' retort has its place, but imho not for the cases you give. Luke 1: 37 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. Yes, God can do anything, but, then you get into the philosophical arguments of can God put a square peg in a round hole, commit sin, etc. I believe God can do anything He puts his will to but also: Isa. 1: 18 18 Come now, and let us reason• together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. God created us with a mind and we are expected to use it. I think using the argument that 'God took evidence away to test our faith' is a very poor one. I think the lack of archeological evidence for the BoM stories are a valid observation and at the same time how do we account for the 40 years of wanderings of Moses after leaving Egypt? Sure, we can point to a map and suggest where they wander but can we use that map to prove that they were led by flame (if I recall correctly), ate mana from heaven and that their clothes never wore out? As for the world wide flood - I think a localized flood would have done the trick (in relation to worldwide-maybe a few countries), yet many world faiths including non-JudeaChristian, have flood stories. As for planting fossils - I follow age-day theory of creation in which each creation day could have been thousands, tens of thousands, even millions of years each - who knows, therefore dinosaurs could have existed long before man and procludes God 'planting' evidence to test our faith. I think there is a way to incorporate science and theology. While we are to follow God in faith, it is not a blind faith. In final answer to your question - I think God pretty much leaves us to our own devices (per our request - look at human history basically rejecting God's interference). But is available when we seek him Acts 17: 27 27 That they should seek the Lord, if• haply they might feel• after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us You raised some important issues - hope I contributed in some way.