Magus

use this everyone

@prisonchaplain: i understand why you feel there was a great deal of political pressure on the Church about the blacks and the priesthood thing. but i think the bigger pressure was just the practicality of it. the Church was having serious issues growing in areas around the world where you were having to get nitty gritty with someone's racial background. it was making things really complicated. either way, i believe that Kimball and others of the Prophets were sincere when they say that they went to the Lord many times over the previous decades to ask the Lord's will on this matter (when there wasn't political pressure). I also believe the accounts of a powerful spiritual, even pentacostal experience in the temple when they received the answer that blacks could now have the priesthood. I understand the cynicism about letting the Church eventually recognizing gay marriage. But on faith, I'm gonna have to disagree about the eventuality of this happening. Blacks receiving the priesthood was not a MORAL issue, it was a tactical issue that was prophecied would eventually happen anyway (by Brigham Young no less). But the issue of gay marriage is indeed a MORAL issue, and I do not think the Church will bend on this. I think the times are coming when the USA, culturally and politically, is going to become quite weak, if not collapse, and the political kingdom of Zion is going to begin its rise and mark the line in the sand between black and white.

I'm just going to go with my gut on this one and tell you what I know from personal experience. There are things in my life that I have truly repented of, and know that I repented of, because the Holy Ghost confirmed to me that I had been forgiven, washed over me and cleansed me. I felt new and very literally spiritually reborn. My guilt was swept away. These were truly miraculous experiences. It would seem to me that the crux of your problem with not forgiving yourself is that you still feel guilty. Would that be correct? If so, then the solution would seem to be that you need to get rid of your guilt. You need to feel like a new person. In which case, it would seem to me that the best, ultimate solution would be for the Holy Ghost to cleanse you heart and soul, to sweep your guilt away, to make you feel new, reborn and clean again. I am presuming this has not happened to you, at least not in any defining way. Would I be correct? If so, the only thing I can recommend is serious, intense, prolonged prayer and fasting for this miracle to occur. Pouring your heart out to the Lord multiple times a day, waiting and listening, asking and knocking for the confirmation, for the miracle, and accompanying it with regular fasting. Of course, be careful not to harm your health in so doing. I can testify that if you seek the miracle diligently and steadfastly - it will come and the Lord will cleanse you. It will likely be tough - but just be patient and persist, persist and persist. Ask the Lord to make you whole again. He will. Miracles are often hard to come by - but if you want them badly enough and do not give up in the face of despair - they come. If that is the path you choose, I wish you the best.

I agree. But it's interesting to point out that sometimes there are leaders who stop serving God and start serving themselves as well. They are not immune to sin or corruption. They are human. For example, I sustained my mission president. But the dude had some serious flaws. For example, lying to missionaries in interviews in order to try and trick them to get a confession out of them over rather trivial mission matters. That is straight up unethical as a priesthood leader. I could go on. The man was entitled to revelation. I am sure that at times he received it. But I am positive he did not receive it all the time, and I am positive that at times he was quite in error as well, and harmed the mission, as well as individual missionaries. I can make that observation and react accordingly without being an apostate or having any pride in my heart. Furthermore - yes, this is Christ's Church and he is at its head. It is ultimately guided by him. But exactly how much every detail is guided is another matter. I can say for certain that God let's us lead and lets us make mistakes - very often. The 116 pages of the Book of Lehi is a prime example. There are many others.

To me, sustaining a leader means the following: 1.) I recognize their right to receive revelation 2.) if I disagree with them, I express that disagreement properly. 3.) if I know something that would disqualify them to be in their leadership position, I also share that information through the proper channels. I have been vocal about my disagreements with certain Church leaders before. I have an opinion, I express it. But that doesn't mean I don't sustain them as leaders.

Yeah - makes me wonder if the wife knows what "love" really is? The thrilling romantic feelings of "in love" seem like something often dependent on circumstances that bring those feelings out. When the honeymoon period is over, it's harder to feel those same feelings - but they can certainly be brought out again under the right conditions, especially if you actually do love the person. I don't think anyone feels the "in love" feelings on a constant basis over the course of a marriage. If anyone does, they might only be in romance novels or works of fiction.

I would argue that a third path would be that there is truth, but that there is no "true Church", just God, and there are many paths to heaven. It's actually a pretty common belief amongst people who don't choose any particular religion but still believe in God.

that's terrible. i feel bad for everyone involved. i wonder what the beef was that Chadd had with his grandparents? I work as a 911 operator and I get a lot of domestic violence related calls, so it feels kind of familiar in a way. these types of things can often deal with a lot of complex emotions and histories of family drama.

i'm wondering what the sentence was.

yeah, i can see what you mean. in light of how things turned out with Dutcher, it's also a pretty interesting scene.

awesome, what mission is he going to?

yeah yeah, i know, i'm a big bad meanie.

@ MorningStar what part? on a side note, i never saw God's Army 2.

what is bible beltize?

that sounds like a blast. theatre and home-schooling and the dutchers. i hope he and his family are all doing alright.

haha, i like that quote, about the more hope for apostates than hypocrites. Good one, I'mma use that sometime. Yeah, I know, it is easy to judge. Maybe it had something to do with him on an emotional level deep down. There were other things probably going on in his family life that were causing discord. And maybe the Church wasn't filling his wants. Who knows.

That was freakin awesome. I wish I could do that. Though actually, my thread title is an Austin Powers reference.

tell me about it, I'm one of them Nah, actually I think it would be nice to actually be totally (well, mostly) anonymous on a board for once.

yeah, I think that's actually the worst part of it.

lol, exploring Babylon I could understand at least. Yeah, I dunno. I still respect him as a person and film maker, of course. Just a shame, that's all.

Yeah, I know I sounded mean. Kinda like when people tell me I think I'm better than other people, that sounds mean to me too. Anyway, I'm being nice now. Olive branches are extended. Truce.

heh, well, spiritual ambivilance is one thing, but having a testimony is another. You can still have a testimony and be spiritually ambivilant. Which is why it's so perplexing to me that he would leave the Church over some intellecutal issue regarding Joseph Smith/Church history. To me - those are some of the easiest things to deal with. A big part of that is because I already have a strong testimony, so I'm armed with that when I dig into the controversial things in Church history. But even if I weren't armed with that, there are explanations for pretty much every challenge, and they are reasonable ones. I get the feeling like maybe his testimony wasn't up to the rigors of being challenged. Like it just wasn't used to it or something, and so when challenged, it surrendered. I don't know any of this of course, but that's just kind of what it sounds like.

For me, my testimony relies on foundational spiritual experiences that I've had that have confirmed things for me. Instances where I've received powerful revelation from the Holy Ghost. My core testimony consists of only those things that the Holy Ghost has born powerful witness to me of, which are: God loves me more than I can comprehend. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World, and as a nation we must follow him or perish. The Testimony of the Three Witnesses is true, an angel truly did appear before them and show them the golden plates. The Book of Mormon truly is a powerful, living book that will whisper to you from the dust. The gathering of Israel is happening now. The Three Kingdoms of Heaven do in reality exist, and the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is indeed obtainable. Blessed are the persecuted - they will be comforted. God's forgiveness is real and truly does cleanse you and make you new and born again. God is always there and always ready and willing to help, no matter how far astray you've gone. The temple is truly a place where God's spirit resides in tangibleness. I know I had supernatural experiences that told me those things were true. I know I'm not crazy. And I know all of the other conclusions that follow as a result of those revelations stand to reason (the Church is true, etc etc etc). That's how I know I have a testimony.

now see, this is the thing that sort of bothers me. when people say they can't pass judgment. Surely we can pass judgment as to what is right and wrong? What is impressive and what is sad or pathetic? And I know "pathetic" is a loaded word, but I don't mean it in that kind of offensive way, I just mean something that is a shame or a waste in the face of opportunity for it to not be so. On a personal level, no, we're not in Dutcher's shoes - but on a human level, yes, we are all in the same shoes and all have our faith tried. I'm not passing judgment on him as a person in relation to his eternal salvation - but I think any of us are entitled to pass at least some judgment on a person's actions, in direct accordance to how informed we are. Is that not rational? The scriptures don't just say to not judge, they say to not judge unrighteously. Which I think was a JST addition, was it not?

i understand. my intent wasn't to rake Dutcher over the coals. It was just me wanting to express my own feelings about it. Which were surprise, shock and a bit of cynicism and defensiveness, as well as genuine pity and/or compassion, but which didn't get expressed as much in my comments. though if Dutcher were here, I would tell him straight up how I feel in probably the same way (blunt honesty, I mean...and I'm bluntly honest with those I respect). I would be more tactful about it, but would express the same sentiments and ask him what kind of testimony he had to begin with, and then I would talk to him about what is bothering him so bad.