SF_Giants66

When people say an additional witness follows I usually take that to be a self-fulfilling prophecy given that it isn't a coincidence. I've seen and experienced a lot of strange things when I was a believer of the LDS church as well, but nothing that will ever make me believe certain feelings were any kind of revelation outside of my own mind. If god gave us our intellect and intelligence to decide what is best, why do we have to have all these rules and arbitrary standards to follow which takes away ability to decide for ourselves? It is also easy for us to say something is wrong when it isn't something we'd ever do in the first place.

Were you an Atheist from de-converting from another religion? Did you actively discuss or debate religion or were you just born an Atheist and didn't really care about religion until you found the LDS church?

I don't believe I lost any knowledge or testimony, I've only gained. I've gained the knowledge that I engaged in a fraud before. As for being an Atheist before, I would say that I wonder what one religion had that could have made you answer all of your logical doubt of external realities, or were you just an atheist apathetic to religion to begin with?

So couldn't it be possible that you misunderstood the prompting then?

Well it is just that when I claim I was a devoted member and people say I wasn't that is the "no true scottsman" fallacy by trying to refute my argument by saying I never truly believed in the first place. That is actually something I take offense to and is not refuting my argument at all.

What make the holy ghost different than people of other religions claiming they have some divine revelation from metaphysical power? People of other religious claim just as honestly and sincerely of their beliefs. When I was a Mormon I argued with some Christians who left the Mormon church claiming they got insight that The Book of Mormon was false.

My apologies. I fixed that. It was the default setting when joining.

Saying things like, "well I won't call you out as a liar" as well as making sarcastic remarks and posting links to other topics as a method to call me out is actually something I consider rude and insulting. Maybe you don't though.

I haven't been a member of this church for two years.

LOL. It's funny that you would link a masturbation forum to fit your argument. I actually was referring to a lot more than just sexual repression when talking about an unrestrained lifestyle, although sexual repression is one of the top 5 reasons people leave the church. Why do you think masturbation is the most common searched word among members on this forum? Actually, you can call me a liar all you want, but I actually am friends with some Ex-Mormons now that I argued with like you are doing with me now. It doesn't sound like you try to hard to get people into the church.

Okay, you do have a point there. In one of my communities we actually have a chat room and don't really talk about the church all that much, just being former members is the thing that brings us together. The Ex-Mormon Conference is also held once a year in Salt Lake City and I went in 2011 and they keep their archives of their talks and people's stories online as well. They have some pretty interesting viewpoints and provide advice for finding good community. Leaving the LDS church it is hard to make up that community sometimes so that is the main reason we have events such as this.

I personally don't believe in a holy ghost or any kind of spirit. However, that doesn't mean I can prove one doesn't exist. However, if you're saying the holy ghost can decipher what is true and what isn't to you, what kind of margin of error to you account for? I remember when I was younger I used to think I was getting certain promptings from the spirit and found out later that I was wrong about my initial impression.

It doesn't make sense that someone would need to marry women already married. That is actually a violation of one of Joseph Smith's writings in D&C in which he interfered with his own salvation. It also doesn't make sense to receive a revelation of the Word of Wisdom and still continue to drink and smoke after that. I could go on and on but I don't think I would be telling you anything you haven't heard before. I read some rather shocking information in "No Man Knows My History" as well. I did spend a lot of time defending the church and doing research on FairLDS as well but wasn't enough to maintain faith. Leaving the LDS church was a painful decision but I can say that it was the best decision I ever made. I improved a lot of things in my life as well as eliminated the need for my anti-depressants and feel life is more open and unrestrained.

So what are you guys saying? If you read what leaders have said and get a bad feeling about it that is the holy ghost telling you it isn't true but if you get a good feeling the holy ghost tells you that it is? That is actually called confirmation bias, which is human psychology confirming what the person already believes in the first place.

No, you have to be careful now because this is not what I claimed and you're getting upset an angry for no reason. What I was stating is that I at once thought that The Book of Mormon was too complex to have been made up, and after some of these statements I found out there were many things I never knew about such as the View of the Hebrews, the Spaulding Manuscripts, etc. There are many similarities between those and The Book of Mormon. That was also only one reason and not the only reason. The other dagger to my faith was finding out that Joseph Smith was married to women who had other husbands at the time and that seems to be a reason many people have. That isn't speculation or rumor, as I believe even familysearch.org which correct me if I am wrong think it is an LDS Church family history site confirms those records. Also, you claiming that all Ex-Mormons represent the whole community is the same as others who have a bad experience with a Mormon saying that all Mormons are the same. I don't go around burning scriptures, holding up signs at LDS events, preach on the streets against the Mormon church. Each comment I made since I joined here was only an answer to a topic question posted which you can see in my profile. I even went to my sister's baptism only because she asked me to go and I said no thanks several times first. My mom also worked out a deal with me and she is now going to go see Richard Dawkins live with me because I went to Stake Conference with her. So I think I am a very reasonable guy and I welcome you to correct anything I said that wasn't factual or that I mis-interpreted but insulting me isn't going to make me think any more positively of your cause.

As someone else who is no longer a Mormon, my reason or not being a member of the church anymore was because I couldn't handle ambiguity well. I feel that it is hard to be on the thought process that everything is either right or wrong and that we should allow religion to stop our thinking for us. There are several positive videos at [moderator removed] which people are actually not angry or bitter but stating their happiness in their new life outside of the church to give others struggling with the same issues some hope that there is life beyond Mormonism. I think it would help answer you question to check some of those videos out. For me I had problems with faith in god as it fluctuated day by day but when I saw in research that B.H. Roberts said that The Book of Mormon didn't have to be from a divine source and could have been hypothetically made up it was enough for me along with my other doubts. I don't actually have any bitterness or anger for people being allowed to choose where they stand with philosophy as well, but just like one other person said, the ones who leave the church and go through anger and revenge are the ones who are the most noticed, but there are many who aren't. I am also part of a community called Life After Mormonism at [moderator removed] that you should check out. If you want to learn more about Ex-Mormons, why not ask a community of people who are Ex-Mormons?

You don't know any bitter and angry Mormons grinding their ax against Ex-Mormons and those who contradict their faith?

This of course brings us back to the original question. When were they not speaking as a prophet even when they claimed they were? And if they claimed they were speaking as a prophet when the words they were saying were not from any divine source, what does that say about their character?

Part of the problem is Brigham Young said specifically he has never spoken any words that cannot be taken as good as scripture. This really turns up a lot of questions because whether or not he was speaking as a prophet all the time, he certainly claimed he was and made a lot of statements that by today's standards would be considered horrible. I know that in the 1800s it was easy for many people to believe as he did, but does that mean god changes as society does?

Just for clarification, are you talking about sinning with the intention of repenting for it later?

Of the people I know that left the church, it seems to be a lot about doctrinal issues. We can say all these things that we want about how they just got offended, wanted to drink alcohol, have unwed sex, etc. However, I think we know better than to dismiss people's reasons for leaving by making judgments and throwing labels. Whether we like it or not a lot of people are leaving the LDS church and many of them were devoted active members at one time. What seems to make people stay is the community and security along with the satisfaction of their worldview. People who feel unworthy to tend to have an easier means of departure of the church, but given the high standard, in some way everyone can feel at least partially unworthy. Lots of variables here obviously.

This is kind of a tough one because you can't really have it both ways. If god is omniscient, where we go after mortal life has already been pre-determined for us and cannot be changed. Free will would require people to act on their own behalf without influences outside of it. Every action is result of a prior action, so will is never truly free. If we didn't believe in certain eternal consequences for certain things, would it change how we do things? If the desire for the reward of heaven or the fear of hell is in indicator in our choices, it wasn't a choice made on free will.

Are you saying that you want people to help you and reassure you that there is a god, or you want people to tell you things that can convince your husband? If he is now coming to the terms that he doesn't believe in god he has probably thought hard and long about it. Why is being in a different place philosophically than your husband so terrible? If you want to help, if you haven't already, listen first without debating or interrupting as to why he doesn't believe in god so you can be sure you understand his perspective. If you want to change his mind, you have to know where he is coming from first.

If you are an agnostic you lack a belief in god. Being an Atheist means that you lack a belief in gods. If you are agnostic, that means you don't believe in god basically but you just don't believe that it can be proven one way or another.

Some believe that the creator is nature itself and that if there is a god it is not a personal god or a god that intervenes with our actions.