Upcountry

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About Upcountry

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    http://www.theoryofgod.org

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    I wish to develop a theory that looks at LDS doctrine through the eyes of a physicist using the scriptures taken literally as observable data.

    Some of my conclusions could be controversial if expressed online so I keep my identity and location fairly secret.
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  1. I am a physicist converted to the LDS faith because of the logic of Baptism for the Dead. I am not an anthropologist but I note the discontinuity in the sophistication of civilizations between those shown by the old fosil human remains before ~4000 BC and those of the early modern civilations. I note that modern humans spread their new culture quickly.. Some have said there is no conflict between the teachings of God and the scientific method. If this is true, there should be a consistent way to explain both what is observed in the scriptures and the oservations of science. If we could develop a universal theory, we would know both religion and science better and would be able to make predictions as well as prophesies. This paper is my attempt to resolve some differences between the teachings of my LDS faith and my scientific community. I also suggest several hypothetical scennario for your consideration. This is intended to be inoffensive. But since it provides justification for Baptism for the Dead, it is not consistent with the teachings of our Christian bretheren. Upcountry ______________________________________________________________________________________ Abstract 10-11-15 I describe scenarios consistent with current scientific knowledge, scripture and LDS teachings that explain much of today's events. These include events at the Grand Council in the Pre-existence, the meaning of God's curses on Adam and Eve at the Fall, the reasons for Atonement and Baptism, and a hypothesis removing the conflict between creationism and evolution. I suggest that the battle between Good and Evil is ongoing and that the end result depends on us and is yet to be determined. The Glory of God is Intelligence Impressed by a love of God and the logic of Baptism for the Dead, I was baptized into the LDS church as a graduate student in physics. Physics deals with the fundamental laws of nature including the origin of man and the universe. I joined in spite of the LDS doctrine that Adam and Eve were real people and not fictional characters in an allegorical tale. I took a leap of faith. I am thankful that I did. Speaking as a member of this ward, I am told that we are Children of God, in the image of God and members of an eternal family. Our Heavenly Parents loved us as we love our children on earth. “As man now is, God once was:” “As God now is, man may be.” [Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow, Ch 5] God has a physical body. Spirits are a finer type of matter but more fine or pure”. [D&C 131] By proper authority, we must be baptized to be saved and married to be exulted. Stories in Genesis of Adam, Eve, Noah, and the Flood are literally true. Earth and mankind is 7000 years old. [D&C 77:6] The Garden of Eden is near what is now Jackson, Missouri. [D&C 107:53-57] Speaking as a physicist, I am told that we are mostly space surrounded by a electron force field. Space is not empty but is a seething mass of virtual particles flashing in and out of existence. Space has 9 dimensions not 3. Perception of time depends on the observer. Matter and energy are simultaneously waves and particles in multiple locations and can tunnel through walls. The universe is random, uncertain, entangled and 95% of it is unseen and unknown. Our universe is 13.7 billion years old. The Earth is 4 billion years old. Mankind is the end result of millions of years of evolution. Our Church and science do agree that matter, energy, and information are equivalent, eternal, and can not be lost – just reorganized (transformed in scientific language). This is a recent scientific discovery [Leonard Susskind “Black Hole Wars”] but it was stated by Joseph Smith 180 years ago. If energy and matter are eternal, his further statement that spirit is matter [D&C 131] means we are beings of energy and part of an unseen eternal society. Our Church teaches that God organized the Earth, creatures, and mankind from spiritual material in a Preexistence before he made this physical world. [Moses 3:5] Mankind's souls were made in their image – male and female. “Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning”. [D&C 93:38] We were created intelligent with the potential to be divine. [Lorenzo Snow, Ch 5] But, as our souls developed randomly and obtained self awareness, our natures began to diverge according to our choices. When Father convened the Grand Council, our souls had fully matured. We had memories, personalities and projected our image to other spirits. We had friends, formed societies and families. We talked, played, and argued. There were Great Leaders such as Jesus, Lucifer, Michael, and Jeremiah. [Jeremiah 1:5] At Grand Council, we were told of the Plan of Salvation for our entry into the physical world on Earth. Behind a veil of forgetfulness, we would be tested. For the first time, we would experience pain, choices with consequence, and sin. Sin would be unavoidable. Justice would require repayment either by us personally or by a Redeemer – someone without blemish. [1 Peter 1:19] In the Council, we were asked to ratify the selection of this Redeemer and covenant to come to Earth with Him. Since Jesus held the birthright and had created our Paradisaical World, His selection was expected. Jesus said “Send Me”, but Lucifer offered another choice. He said “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.” [Moses 4] Examine those words: If I said “the Titanic has sunk and not one soul was lost”, you would say what a miracle. If, however, I said “the Titanic has sunk and one soul was not lost”, you would say what a tragedy. With the additional promise “I will redeem all mankind... And surely I will do it”, those wishing to return to The Father, saw an easy way to avoid the pain of this world. Though true, Lucifer's words were deceptive – as were his words to Eve “ye shall not surely die”. How would Lucifer's plan work? Slightly change Lehi's vision of the Iron Rod. At birth, Lucifer would handcuff each of us to the Iron Rod. Chained to the Rod, we would proceed to the Tree of Life with neither sin, pain, nor scorn. No river of filth; no building on the hill. Without sin, we would all be redeemed. Without sin, the Atonement would be a coronation. Without experience with free will, and life itself, we would not be Children of our Father. We would be as worker bees to Lucifer's queen. Many spirits were reluctant to leave Heaven for Earth. We were afraid of pain, choices and danger. Since God had given us free agency, He let us chose – between the easy way to Earth with Lucifer, or the hard way with Jesus. In the ensuing confusion, cowardice, and deception, one third of the spirits chose to covenant with Lucifer, not Jesus. These are they who did not keep their First Estate. How do spirits communicate? Since spirits cannot affect physical matter, [D&C 129] they have no sight, hearing, touch, smell or taste. Spirits have no reflection, cast no shadow, and take no selfies. Instead, they project a mental image into our minds as though they were with us. Some examples are: the blindness of Saul on the road to Damascus, Zachariah's loss of speech, the blindness and forgetfulness caused by the angels at Lot's house, and Nephi's success in killing Laban. All of these deceptions are possible with telepathic power. My family history gives two more examples. On Earth, we are shielded from our complete memory and telepathic power by that veil which protects our free agency. We recognize some residual leakage as our “Sixth Sense”. We explore it with scientific experiments like “Remote Viewing”. When the veil is lifted and all memory is perfectly restored along with telepathic communication, it will be as if we shall shout our sins from the rooftops. Then, we will all know that God is loving, merciful and just. On our freely given invitation, both good and evil spirits can affect our thoughts and actions. Evidence of this is when people kill for greed like Cain and an oath like Lamech and become Master Mahan. [Moses 5] Whether they know it or not, they are in league with Satan. This is Satan's world of deception. His doctrine mimics but can never be the true doctrine of The Father. By their fruit, you shall know them. There can be no perfect counterfeits. And so, we came to Earth hoping to return to God in perfection but knowing we would fail and require redemption. Jesus had made all creatures and man from the dust of the Earth. He could give them life and the ability to cooperate, communicate and learn from each other. But only the Father could give intelligence and life to man. Only He could give us the capability to know good and evil, to accept or reject sin. Only He could give us standing to be like him, to become heirs of God and joint heirs of Jesus, and to make covenants with Him and with the Celestial Community beyond. As planned, Adam transgressed the Law with his Priesthood and reaffirmed our preexistent covenant on Earth for all of us. Adam and Eve's eyes were opened so they knew good and evil. [John 9:41] Their transgression of itself was not a sin. Sin is an intentional, malicious act to limit the Free Agency of yourself or another in violation of the covenant we made in the Preexistence. Only in our physical bodies, can we sin and have dominion over all creatures and Satan. That is why Cain, with the covenant and a body, is called the father of Satan's lies. [Gen 1:26. Moses 5:23-25] Satan is not God's enemy, he is our enemy. Satan has no standing with the Father. After the Fall, God cursed us, saying: [Moses 4: 20] “And I, the Lord God, said unto the serpent [for Satan spake by the mouth of the serpent]: Because thou hast done this thou shalt be cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life; [21] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” We are not talking about baby snakes here. The serpent's seed are those that covenanted with Lucifer at the Grand Council. The woman's seed are those that covenanted to follow Jesus. The bruising is the ongoing earthly battle between Good and Evil. We are the dust he shall eat in this world for as God said later to Adam, [25] “for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return”. From this point on, our brother Lucifer is Satan. He and his seed are our enemy. We are their lawful prey. Since spirits have only telepathic power, they feast on our emotions – fear, hate, wrath, etc. As we look at world events and history, we should remember Satan feeds on our misery and despair. Satan is our parasite. [22] “Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” Considering that Eve started the whole process and forced Adam to violate a commandment with his Priesthood, she merited very few words. Why? She had no authority to transgress God's Law. [23] “And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. [24] Thorns also, and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. [25] By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die.” With this, God forced us from the Paradise created by Jesus out into the present world of sorrow given to Satan. God changed the world for our sake, to protect us – not because of us. We became mortal. We would be born innocent but not equal since we would keep our preexistent attitudes. [27] “Unto Adam, and also unto his wife, did I, the Lord God, make coats of skins, and clothed them. [29] Therefore I, the Lord God, will send him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken;” Father sent us into the world clothed and with seeds to till the ground. Like any proud parent, He wished us well. We became not only hunter gatherers but also farmers with intelligence and tools. Then, Father sealed his curse on us, saying: [30] “For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth they must be fulfilled.” As the descendants of Adam and Eve, we are doubly cursed. When we sin, we have no way back to Father except for the path provided in the Plan of Salvation and this Higher Law. An offense against God's Law by the Authority of the Priesthood must be satisfied either by the offender himself or by a person without blemish offered in his place. This required sacrifice is the reason for the selection of a Redeemer in the Grand Council. He is the Anointed One,. There can be only one Only Begotten. Satisfaction of the curse on Adam and the Earth and our salvation now depends completely upon Jesus. The Old Testament makes prophesies, provides histories of the societies and gives the genealogy of Jesus. It also defines the requirements for such a Sacrifice. [Ex 12:5] It gives examples like Issac and the temple sacrifices by the Levites. The Redeemer must be without blemish, from the line of Judah and not related to Cain. Jesus' virgin birth removed the link to Adam. His baptism by John removed the link to Eve. Jesus became the required sacrifice without blemish. The New Testament details the actual Sacrifice of Jesus. The Lamb of God was fully aware, willing, and could withdraw at any time. Jesus had another task. He had to establish a church society to provide the baptismal infrastructure required by each of us. Jesus said, “believe and be baptized and be saved: believe not and be damned”. [Mark 16:16] By baptism we are “born again” and washed clean from the blemish on Eve. We must be baptized willingly in full knowledge of the process. That is why we do not baptize infants, why we baptize all the dead in our temples, and why each of us, alive or dead, must accept our own baptism. Are there unbaptized infant children in the Celestial Kingdom? Probably not. President Joseph F. Smith reported: “Joseph Smith taught the doctrine that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child; and, pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said to her: ‘You will have the joy, the pleasure and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit.’.. [Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, Ch 14, 176–178] Innocent children will be part of the First Resurrection and raised by their own parents or by others during the Millennium. Each child will choose for itself whether to be baptized when it matures in this world. All of the ordinances – baptism, sealing, marriage will be done in our temples by those in authority. The Millennium is the Great Sorting Out where we shall find our own. Since only the LDS priesthood may perform all requested ordinances for the dead, the LDS Church must endure to the end. Who will perform the Millennium temple ordinances? A clue is found in John 4:2. “Jesus baptized not, but His disciples did”. Certainly, Jesus had the authority to baptize. But He was not of this world. Likewise, those resurrected will not be this world. Every Millennial ordinance must be accomplished in our temples by those of this world for there are no baptisms or marriages in heaven. [Mark 12:25] Only we, the mortal priests of Ephraim with the birthright of Joseph, will do temple ordinances then just as only the descendants of Aaron and other Levites did sacrifices in that dispensation. [Matt 16:19,18:18] A prediction: Knowing that Baptism for the Dead is the only way that the dead of all the world may be saved, Satan will attempt to destroy our temples. This may be the reason for the growth of Islam, ISIS, the weakening of Christianity and coarsening of our society. There are many scenarios for Satan to remove the temples in the latter days. I expect little help from our non LDS brethren. [1 Nephi 14:10] There is an apparent conflict between religion and evolution. Evidence for evolution is irrefutable, but LDS doctrine claims the Earth is 7000 years old, [D&C 77:6] and Eden is in Missouri near Adam-ondi-Ahman. Surely, the temporal duration of Adam's covenant is more important to God than the age of matter. For a biblical precedent recall that an angel twice called Issac Abraham's “only son” [Gen 22:12,16] even though Abraham's first son Ishmael was born outside the covenant 13 years earlier by wife Hagar. Hypothesize that Eden was located in Pangaea 252 million years ago. After 1000 years, God gathered Noah and his family into the Ark and removed them from the Earth before the “Great Dying” – a catastrophe which killed almost all life on earth. For Biblical precedent recall the removal of Enoch. Inside the Ark, Noah perceived a flood – hence the worldwide flood traditions. Outside the Ark, millions of years passed, dinosaurs and humanoids evolved leaving their fossils. The continents slowly migrated to their present locations leaving Eden in Missouri. After 378 days, Mankind emerged on Mt. Ararat as a modern society with seeds, domesticated animals, metal skills, [Gen 4:20-22] and a complex language.[Gen 11. Moses 5. 6:5] We were divided by Babel and the land allocation agreement made during Peleg's lifetime. With God”s blessings of intelligence and the womb, we quickly spread across the globe displacing the other humanoids. By 3300 BCE. we built the first cities like Memphis and Uruk. Early Jericho and the Ubaid period are evidence of other humanoid's primitive development.
  2. Upcountry

    "Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

    WARNING: WHEN YOU THANK A POST YOU LOSE YOUR ENTIRE ENTRY. I WILL BEGIN AGAIN. You give Satan too much credit. Satan does not corrupt you. You corrupt yourself. Similar to the Light of Christ, we have the temptation of Satan. But we are agents for ourselves and make the choices ourselves and are responsible for them. The body is only a way of expressing the will of our spirit in this universe. The body is corruptible but that means it is mortal and has necessary lusts. It is not inherently evil. The spirit controls the body and is responsible for its actions to the extent it can actuate the body. Tourette people have no control and are not responsible and should not be judged. Babies are not baptized because the body is not developed enough to allow a free choice for the spirit that actuates it. I think that if a 5 year old is self aware and knows enough to want to shoot his sister, his young age will be no defense. If a ten year old is unaware of what he is doing, shooting his sister will not be held against him. In the resurrected body, he will remember that he did it but he will also know the fog in his brain when it happened. You see, intent is as important as the action. We should treat the body as a temple because it is ours and we should love it as we do Our Father. And if we damage it so we can no longer use it correctly, we are responsible. We are the captains of our body and soul. Satan is a mere annoyance until we chose to follow him. Or so I believe. Upcountry You can never be perfect but you can always be kind. Guilt and self flagellation serves little purpose.
  3. Upcountry

    "Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

    Right On Finrock! In addition to a perfect body, I suggest we also have a perfect memory and all that implies. We may have to forgive, but we do not have to forget. That may be part of God's justice in that we all can see what we have done when we thought no one was looking. Since all in the Celestial Kingdom are with God, I assume they all have "Eternal Life". But since two levels are without children (only those in the the third level are "Exulted"), they are the aunts and uncles to the children of the next generation. I suspect that situation is their free choice. Not everyone wants to be a parent and cry over the loss of potential of your children. The other kingdoms consist of "Failed Gods" and they also are immortal. I suspect that Satan is immortal also even though he is spiritually dead.
  4. Upcountry

    "Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

    I found your assignment quite interesting. Especially D&C 28 which led me to D&C 76. But it was difficult to get a clear meaning and definition for terms which is what I am attempting. Yes, The Father and Son are examples of eternal life. But what is it about them that equals ET? Is it their children? Then are the attending angels (some of us) also included? You say my definition is incomplete. What would you suggest to add? Eternal consciousness is awareness of your surroundings (i.e. self awareness) for eternity. Satan cannot have physical death since he was never born so how can he be part of the definition of Perdition?. I do not know the definition of sin. Is it to offend and limit another soul's free agency? Just overindulgence seems too narrow. (See what Satan tried to do to our agency and consider the Golden rule.) I am willing to assume the body of Adam was created in a short period or by evolution. After all, we do believe in miracles. But it is important that the soul of Adam was injected into the body by God (and I think it was the Father). Jesus clearly made everything else (by whom all things were made). Why do you say there are difficulties? What are they? But when does the soul enter the body and make it into a physically born son of god? At conception? That was the question I was trying to answer. I shall take my answer as to the baby's first breath as the answer according to LDS doctrine unless you can come up with another. This is not to say that abortion is OK. Not at all. But church seems to say murder is after the first breath.
  5. Upcountry

    "Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

    Shall we define "Eternal Life" as being in the Celestial Kingdom? This excludes Telestial and Terrestrial people. Satan has "eternal consciousness" unless he suffers the "second death". I am not certain that he does. Adam was created as we were (did he have a belly button? - an old and tired question). Adam was behind the veil like us also. The "breath of life" may be the first breath. LDS does not seal still born babies but they can get sealed after they take their first breath. I take that to signal that the first breath signals the time that the soul enters the body. I would say we have to have a body to sin. Certainly, Lucifer knew the difference between (non-physical) good from evil and so did we but many of us may have been deceived in the spirit world. Adam and Eve on earth were born innocent and behind the veil until Adam with his priesthood made the conscious choice to follow Eve into mortality and out of the innocence. This choice was required to continue the training to become like the Father. Jesus (the Word) did create the world using the Father's power. I think He needed the actual Father to place Adam's spirit into the body created out of the dust by Jesus.
  6. Upcountry

    "Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

    Suppose the God gave our spirits a body and the power to be like Him and have spiritual children and create worlds for them. Imagine the harm and pain that we could inflict if we were not trained in love and kindness. That may be the purpose of the first stage of Eternal Progression. Added: Regarding "Spiritual Eyes"; Surely, spirits had the ability to project an identity in the Pre-extence. Else, how could they discuss anything? This projection would have been without the use of physical eyes. If we say we can communicate with God through prayer, and He with us, is that not a spiritual sense - a telepathy? Religions (most) believe in visions - nothing requires that these visions be physical (through our eyes). Visions could be telepathically planted directly into each mind. That would explain why some people see a vision while others next to them do not. Spiritual eyes cannot see the Kingdom of God - since those eyes must have been born once: Only those "born of water" can enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:1-12).
  7. Upcountry

    "Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

    There are many "sins" that are not related to the body but are more psychological. How about pride, intimidation, shame, blackmail, carping, fear, and all of the "sins" that degrade one's ability to act as a free agent and see things clearly. Some of these may be done to another just to obtain power over the other individual rather than for the pleasures of this world and worldly gain. Since there was no body, this was what Lucifer must have used to garner 1/3 of the votes in heaven. I suspect that it was a free vote. Good thing he did not win.
  8. Upcountry

    The world is wrong

    Re top paragraph: Possibly thoughts in the Spirit World are not sin. Otherwise, The Father's house would not have been without sin. To sin may require a body since a physical body is required to influence matter. {Sticks and Stones may break my bones etc.} However, the spirit does control the body when it gets one, so in that sense, the spirit can sin. See Cain comment below. Re "First Paragraph": We are all subject to Satan, whether we sin or not, because he influences us in the same way but in an opposite direction as the Holy Spirit. As we sin, we become more inclined to sin more. The body is simply another avenue to go wrong since carnal temptations are available through it. Don't be so hard on the body: Lust is needed for procreation and the body must be fed to be preserved for its tasks on this world. Your body is a natural part of this physical world. It is in the excesses that the damage is done - but that is your choice - not Satan's. Re 2nd": If the second sentence is true, we are all doomed and there is no point in fighting. Thought is necessary to weigh the options: if you cannot think about something, you cannot act according to your agency. Rather, it is the action that counts and that action requires a body. Re #1: We can certainly know good and evil without a body. We had knowledge of good and evil in the Pre-existence. It was the choice to follow Lucifer that was our first real opportunity to "sin". And some were kicked out as a result. A body is required to sin: a spirit cannot. Cain certainly had bad thoughts in the Pre-existence. Yet, he came to earth and started out as innocent as the rest of us. It was his bad spirit, the same one as he had before, that caused him and his body to follow Satan. Can Satan sin? Re#2: The body gives us the ability to influence matter. God with His wife could have children but they were only spirit children. They were incomplete and unable to sin and could not be made complete without a body. The body is necessary to have the complete power over this universe. The spirit is the motivator. Re "last thought": Bodies are good. All that come to earth get a degree of "glory" - Telestial, Terrestrial, of Celestial. Even Cain gets to rule over Satan because Cain has his body. All our second estate spirits now have bodies and the Atonement guarantees that we will have them forever no matter what stage of "sin" we are in. If you mean our current mortal body, yes, the spirit can destroy it just like we can destroy our car by driving it into a wall. Your choice. My last thought: since we have agency to act for ourselves, and since this world is a time of trial and testing, we should spend more time helping others to get through this world than cursing the sins and natural lusts of our own bodies. Look outward, not inward. Thus, it is better to be kind than to be perfect. See also the "Golden Rule".
  9. Upcountry

    "Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

    A study like that was reported in 6/23/2008 in the Washington Post. An excerpt quote is "Those are some of the thorny questions that have been raised by a provocative new study that found striking differences between the brains of homosexuals and heterosexuals in both men and women. Some scientists say the new findings are part of an increasingly convincing body of evidence that suggests sexual orientation results from fundamental developmental differences that are probably caused by hormonal exposures in the womb." LDS believe that we were created as male and female in the pre-existence and are innocent at birth. We bring into this world distinct personalities that become apparent as we develop as children. Boys tend to play with guns: girls with dolls. A safe assumption is that sexuality is a combination of nature and nurture not just one or the other. As soon as one says that persons may repent of their sexuality, there is a tendency to judge them. I suspect there really are those souls that have been born into the wrong body/brain. Matter (here I mean hormones) is subject to probabilistic variations. I cannot put the burden of free choice on them to select their sexuality when that choice may not be theirs to make. Of course, whom I associate with is my choice and is not the same as judging them.
  10. Upcountry

    "Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

    Upcountry
  11. Upcountry

    Can you touch a spirit being?

    My reply is in the quote.
  12. Upcountry

    Can you touch a spirit being?

    Brother Martain, You are correct and I and my conjecture is wrong. Satan can lie when he wants to. He need not only twist the truth. The lie is in Moses 1:19 wherein Satan says "I am the only Begotten, worship me." I thought of this last night. Thank you for your conversation to point this out. There still remains the mystery of the phrasing of "One soul shall not be lost..." Perhaps, I have read too much into that. I had developed an interesting scenario to explain it. There is much else in your posts I wish to ponder and address but there is too little time now. I thank you for the time you have taken. Upcountry P.S. I picture The Father as a loving being. I have great difficulty grappling with the concept that He would condemn any of His children to "Outer Darkness". That would be too much for any of His creations to bear especially when they played a part in His plan. I have difficulty accepting that God, through Moses,ordered the slaughter of thousands of woman and children especially when children are defined as innocent. I hope this communication will continue. Upcountry
  13. Upcountry

    Can you touch a spirit being?

    I would call that deception. Truth remains truth but it can be presented in ways that are false and misleading. Satan is a master at this for he is a subtle deceiver. I give two examples: In the Garden of Eden, the serpent says to Eve, "thou shall not surely die" Gen 3:4. LDS maintains that he was correct for we need not die. - Satan did not lie. My favorite quote is "That one soul shall not be lost" Moses 4:1. I have heard it twice from the pulpit as "That not one soul shall be lost" which is a completely different and untrue meaning. I contend that Lucifer quite accurately said that if the souls relinquished their free agency to him, that only his soul would not be lost (the rest would be slaves) and since they would be his slaves, their glory would be Satan's not God's. Again, Satan did not lie. He deceived.
  14. Upcountry

    "Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

    Sorry about that. Yes, it was a flippant answer. But, Watson did beat the best humans at Jeopardy and there was a program that beat a grand master at chess once. The CAPTCHA Program: Telling Humans and Computers Apart Automatically software program does it now. However, in 100 years, computers will be able to beat us at everything and we will not be able to tell them apart (a theme of science fiction). That is one of the reasons I regard this time as the Latter Days. Sorry again, Upcountry