HiJolly
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Posts posted by HiJolly
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Welcome! Next month is my wife's and my (grammar, anyone?) 25th. Congrats to you!
HiJolly
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Welcome, Todd!
HiJolly
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Welcome. I tried LDSTalk and didn't like it. Haven't been there for ages. I come from MA&DB.
HiJolly
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...and I thought chatting was evil. I don't allow my kids to chat.I could chat...I've got nothing but time...
Sooner would be great !! 
HiJolly
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Both. What we are given by the spirit is possible to be misunderstood. Same for any scripture that is written down, such as the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, etc. So, both. Unless I misunderstand your question, which is also possible.SO, which is it?
HiJolly
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"Whales"?My wife's family origianlly from Whales...I am more Scottish and Irish...Wilth a name like William Edward Lee (I was born a Nation...later adopted) The Nation(s) used to be... I am still looking into. Of course my family has been here at least since the 1700's.
My ancestors are from Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales and Switzerland. Some came over early, the most recent in the 1800s. Welcome!!
HiJolly
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welcome!Hey all! I've been a member for two and a half years and the church has changed my life so much. Anyway, I'm not one for long introductions, so take care and have a good one!
HiJolly
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Your comment is wierd, IMO.I understand why the OT is taken carefully, because of what we know with the book of Mormon.
All scripture should be taken carefully, even that which is received personally from the Holy Ghost.
HiJolly
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I think they are different in this way: We have ordinances that we perform in the Church, such as baptism, confirmation (Gift of the Holy Ghost), Priesthood ordination, Temple Endowment & Sealings, and so forth. These are done outwardly, physically, by Church representatives who have been given Church authority for those Church members who have ostensibly met the requirements. But we're not perfect in the running of the Church.I personally have a very hard time with "calling and election made sure" just as I have problems with "once saved always saved" - both pose the same theological problem
The ordinations that we give/perform in this manner are preperatory work, the 'John' or Elias, for the 'true' embuement or endowment of the blessing. The marriage is not eternal until the Holy Spirit of Promise 'seals' the Sealing. That sort of thing.
So there is the outer ordinance, and the inner fulfillment of the ordinance, in every case. IMO.
HiJolly
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Okay, some of the things I've noticed at the Oakland Temple:
Outside the temple:
On the spires: Gold unfinished pyramids with rays beaming out of the top, the top spire reaching toward the Heavens like an antenna. (They glow real bright at night.)
Going down the spires is a vine design, may be stalks of grain
In between the spires (under "Holiness to the Lord") is a Last Supper mural carved in concrete, Jesus' arm is raised to the square in the mural.
In the garden is a plaque that quotes 3 Nephi when Jesus blesses the children and I think it has a small mural devoted to that.
Make sure you take the steps to the roof of the temple to see the rose garden. You can get a good view of the murals, gardens, the bay, and San Francisco from up there, it is really breathtaking.
The fences in the parking lot have the square and compass on each panel.
The Interstake Center windows have the hexagram. (I believe this symbol was used in early Christianity.)
The water flows away from the temple from a fountain through a creek with bridges over it leading to the interstake center, as someone mentioned with another temples fountains, maybe symbolic of the blessings of the temple and eternal life flowing from the temple.
Inside the temple:
Both sides of the gold door in the lobby have the grain stalk design, may symbolize "Bread of Life" as already mentioned.
The chapels and baptistry have an oriental logo on the pillars that glows with the lighting, probably to fit the oriental theme of the temple. I'm sure it spells out a word but I'm not sure what or which oriental language it is.
The baptistry, celestial, and ordinance room 1&2 both have a logo I'm not familiar with, but looks like an E with no line in the middle. It is tilted sideways in the ordinance rooms and is pointing downward in the baptistry and celestial room.
Ordinance room 3 (doubles as an "overflow" endowment room and a sealing room, is very small and is hardly ever used, except when the other rooms are full) has the swastika/four winds symbol all along the ceiling (not the one used by the Nazis, but the Indian embroidery style design like on a Mesoamerican temple) and has a mirror on each wall that bounces the reflection back infinitely, symbolizing eternity. Its the only room used for endowments that I've seen that has the mirrors, they are usually in sealing rooms only.
If you have a temple recommend I highly recommend going and spending the whole day at this temple and taking in the atmosphere. It is very beautiful and peaceful and I think you can learn a lot through the symbolism. It has definitely strengthened my faith in Jesus Christ.
That's really neat stuff, bjw. Thanks. I love the chandelier in the Oakland temple Celestial Room, and how it sounds. Just love it.
HiJolly
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Welcome, SpeedoApe!!
HiJolly
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If you want to peruse an interesting text on the topic, a good introduction is found here: http://www.archive.org/details/textsThis thing about hidden meanings fascinates me. I always liked the idea of their being more than one interpretation of scripture. I've heard of things like this before but not about the dates. I'll definitely look into this.
You might want to search for "Materials for the Study of the Apostolic Gnosis" by Lea & Bond. I have only read the first forty pages or so, but it's certainly interesting.
HiJolly
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I was led to this web page recently -- I think it is so GOOD!So I want to put out another question, does anyone know any good articles, talks, ext. on communicating more effectively to others?
Its mostly for teaching reasons as its my calling for Elders Quorum.http://www.basicincome.com/bp/artofconv.htm
HiJolly
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I believe that the ages of the patriarchs (which Bishop Ussher used for the chronology that first placed Adam & Eve at 4004BC) is not meant to be taken literally, but is a result of the Hebrew/Jewish mystics embedding hidden meaning in their ages via gematria (a mystical numbering system that provides spiritual insights to those who know the code, and who meditate on the possible meanings). Many Christians, even most, are convinced that Ussher was correct and the ages were meant to be literal(even though most haven't even heard of him). I'm not stuck on it, though, myself.While we're on this track, what's the belief in the time frame of, say, the old trestament? We're not stuck on Adam & Eve being created 5,000BC, ect are we? That's one of the biggest weapons the scientifically-minded use against "believers", that the general bible-believing concesus puts all the old testament events withing this time frame, when there's no way it could be so.
Joseph guessed the earth was billions of years old, (at least 1.5b, if I recall correctly), which is much closer than Ussher, IMO.
HiJolly
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I like Doc S's response, but being a raving egotist, I must say that the problem is the methodology employed by the scientific method(SM). What fun about THAT, is that the father of the SM is Renee Decartes, who received it from AN ANGEL. I love to point that out to the scientific types, who then say, "aah, well, actually Popper is the father of SM..." ...sure, sure...My question is, why can't Science sit down and have a conversation with the Author of it all? Just think of what could be accomplished THEN. By their "own" rules, they exclude Him, and yet (I believe) He is the one who breathes life into the efforts of science to begin with. No God means no inspiration or breakthroughs.
scientific method of gaining knowledge ("It's aliiiiivve!!" --Dr. Frankenstein)
PRO: Works really well to investigate assumptions about physical reality
CON: Cannot deal with subjective or personal reality; cannot explain spiritual experiences or 'God'.
Challenge: Must work on observation, measurement, experimentation, controlling environments, eliminating the unknown through testing. "God did it" is anathema and is not allowed. Science freely admits it is not capable of dealing with God.
While we as members of the Gospel know that "all truth can be circumscribed into one great Whole", nevertheless, scientific truth is never going to take us there (*I* don't think, anyway). It HAS taken us far, though, and I think it's pretty wonderful, myself. Just don't use a hammer to darn your socks, if you know what I mean...
HiJolly
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I don't know the rules for missionaries, but we usually accepted dinner.How do you donate to the church? Can I make a donation to the elders who helped me?
For financial donations, we fill out a donation slip (found by the clerk's office on the outer wall, usually) and put it in an evelope. Only a member of the Bishopbric can accept the donation. Most missionaries will tell you you can't give them money, but again, I don't know the current rules.
HiJolly
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Okay. God be with you!well again thankyou for your time in answering my questions. <snip> i thankyou again and my intetion is not to offend any one so i hope i havnt. its just for me weather we no the answers or not they are really big topics and i need to know where a church stands on them before i join it.
HiJolly
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Me too. I love the truth also, and it led me to the questioning. But Heavenly Father made sure that before I could question too much, I KNEW He was real. So I guess I feel like I'm cheating, sometimes. There but for the Grace of God would go I, an incipient agnostic or atheist. But since I do know something of HF, I feel greatly blessed.<snip>
But in some ways I don't feel like the average member. I question a lot of LDS assumptions about life, the gospel, and everything. I'm hungry for truth. <snip>
Roy
My love for truth has taught me much, and brought me to the realization (within myself) that there is something even better, more important than truth (although, without truth I don't think I'd ever come to this realization) --- it is Love. Of course the scriptures say that, but I finally came to it of myself, which is really cool.
Anyway, Welcome!
HiJolly
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James E. Talmage wrote in the beginning of "Jesus the Christ" that all the names we have for God are really not names - they are titles. I realize that Jesus the Christ is not scripture, and therefore not doctrine, but I believe that his view is correct. And the Son inherits much from the Father, including titles. FWIW.D & C 78:
The Son is referred to as Ahman in this scripture.
Another point. This LDS Forum has a lot of investigating and otherwise new-to-the-gospel folks participating. I'd hate to be responsible for teaching something that is not scripturally defensable, particularly when it pertains to the nature of God and the things of eternity. In this, a PUBLIC setting, caution is called for, demanded, even.
OTOH, in our personal persuits, there is no limit. In the book of Mormon, we have excellent examples of writers having beautiful truths which cannot be written. They stop and say "I was going to write more, but the Spirit constraineth me". Not because it's impossible, (though there is some of that, the ineffible, to be sure), and not because they're not true; but because it is to be taught by the Holy Ghost alone, to each of our Heavenly Father's children, as they are ready to receive it.
We are promised in the Doctrine & Covenants that we will be taught by members of the Church of the Firstborn, if we grow in the Gospel and honor our covenants (paraphrasing, I admit). We all know at least one member of that Church, and that is the Holy Ghost. He is the perfect teacher, for what He teaches to us, is then KNOWN to us. Gnosis, if you will.
This is all my opinion, of course, and if anyone takes exception to it, I'd like to know.
HiJolly
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I can pick out a tune right handed only, and have memorised how to play a few songs (Pachbels canon) with both hands! other than that, he knows how to play a few chord of the quitar, but we are both hopeless singers (he is worse than me, however, sometimes when he singds a song i recgnise the lyrics, but have no idea what tune he is singing)
Ok. I wish I could play the piano. I've tried and guess I didn't have the patience.
Well, I don't blame you, and you're not being rude. I met bjw & his grandmother on the grounds of the Conference Center between sessions of conference, so it was pretty kosher. But that's fine. Better safe than sorry.I dont want to be rude HiJolly, but i try not to meet people i meet on the internet. I like to keep it anonymous, that way i feel i can be more open and vulnerable, because i dont 'know' the people. I hope you understand. Of course its different if i knew you and then kept the relationship going through the internet. Thank you for the offer though. B)
HiJolly
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I have a lot to say about this - I hope I don't blow you away.
In the Lectures on Faith, Lecture 4 (I believe) it states that God the Father and Jesus Christ have a common mind. I take this to be the definition of being a God. If a spirit or coporeal being surrenders their own will completely, while still having a separate awareness, and this is a permanent surrender, then they become "a" God. This is how the Holy Ghost became a God. Jesus was a God in the spirit world before he became mortal. This is how we will become Gods.
The Goodhead is like a Bishopric. There was a time when this current Godhead didn't exist. I will refer to God the Father as Ahman (That's his name).
If Jesus did everything and only things he saw his Father do, then Ahman also performed an atonement for hsi spirit brothers and sisters. When he did that, he was in a different Godhead, playing the role of the Redeemer in that Godhead. IMO, there is a progression of Godheads. There will come a day when Jesus will be called into a new Godhead, where he will play the role of the Father, and the spirit we now name the Holy Ghost will be called to be the Redeemer in that Godhead, having witnessed all the things which Jesus did as a Redeemer for us.
There is a lot more I can say about this, but I'll stop now to see how you react to htis.
I appreciate your helpful tone, and willingness to share. That said, though, I'm hoping you won't say much more about that. I know some LDS really get dogmatic about this stuff, I've heard if for decades, but it isn't in scripture and thus needs to take a backseat to the doctrines of the Church that are based in scripture.
Everyone benefits when we recognize speculation for what it is. If you claim it is not speculation, then it is a mystery that has been revealed to you, and has not yet been revealed to the Church. As such, it is not your place to declare it, but the Prophet's. If he chooses not to so declare, then just be patient. And keep it to yourself.
HiJolly
This is very good advice, HiJolly. Let's try and keep this discussion focused on what we do know, and what is taught by the Church, rather than delving into things that have not.
Honos
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Theoretically, what would happen if HF didnt answer your prayers, (for whatever reason). What if Fred hadnt sprouted?
Happens to me all the time. I have found out that HF doesn't want to just give me answers -- He wants me to sweat and work for answers. I think I can count the direct answers I've rec'd on one hand. And that's over 45 years of asking. (more or less). If I've really got my shorts in a bind, He'll make sure I get the message - but only ONCE did he answer directly and with power, in a timely way (and even then, it was weeks in the making).
I know a couple of people that say that God hasn't ever answered their prayers. Don't know what to say, except I could claim that myself for many years, but did not. I saw in my life many answers that MIGHT have come from HF in a really round-about way. Now, after more experience, I know they were answers from HF. They just didn't come the way I expected and/or wanted them to.
This happens to one of my sons quite a bit. He simply can't judge things by the spirit, and gets himself into trouble THINKING he's following the spirit. All I can say is, if you know you're "challenged", you gotta take extra precautions. Like if you know you easily get lost driving to a new place in town, you take maps, looking it up on mapquest or whatever.What if you have jumped into the darkness and not been caught? What if horrible, awful things have happened to you, and you are angry at God for not helping you?
I have found that Mormonism is a very practical religion. It's about doing what works in life. Thank HF!!
Faith is not like many people think, IE, screwing up your face in concentration and making something happen. That's not what it is. JS taught that faith is a principle of ACTION. If you eat food, you have faith that it will nourish you (or taste good & make you fatHow do you have faith when you cannot feel the spirit because of an illness? (and lets not argue this point, i know its true, because it has happened to others i know, not just me)
). If you have faith in the Church, you participate. If you have faith in God, you try to obey the commandments. JS also taught that faith is a gift from HF to those who try to do what's right. It goes in degrees. Hope these comments help---
HiJolly
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My question would be, it's such an expensive thing to travel that far -- will you really do it if you wait? Why?
I hope you do come to SLC for Conference, now or then. If you or your husband are musically inclined, I would like to know. Also, I'd like to meet with you two, personally, since I'm in the SLC area. I met with BJW not too long ago, and I think we all enjoyed the visit. It was right before he went through the temple for the first time.
Anyway, hope to see you!
HiJolly
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Yes, there are several, including Yediyd, who was a baptist (her dad was a minister).wow thats great, thanks for sharing your stories with me. is there any one that has changed relgions? like myself i have been in a baptist church for 14 years and its kinda hard to make the switch even when you feel like its the right descion.
anyway the sisters hat visit me have invited me again to their church so maybe this time i will go
HiJolly
Hello Everybody!
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Welcome!! :)
HiJolly