HiJolly
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Posts posted by HiJolly
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Naw, he just has lots of help.It should be noted Lucifer does his job "manfully," according to Pres. Young. He's a hard and diligent worker; a few attributes to admire, at least.
HiJolly
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I have a few thoughts here.I’m trying to understand the church position on the Garden Of Eden. I started by reviewing the official church web site that tells me was an actual, physical; place and that it did not include death. When I questioned this most posters on this board tell me that it’s a metaphor. How can it be both?
Since the answer to this question involves my personal salivation FOR ETERNITY (which is indeed a long time) I think it deserves a hard look don’t you?
Everyone in the Church is expected to believe in the basic teachings of the Church, and you have the exact teachings of the Church (at present) there at the lds.org web site. You have read them, and I would think you should be happy with that. I know that if we follow those teachings, and progress in the Gospel, we will indeed have salvation.
You have to pay attention to the way things are stated. I agree that the Garden of Eden did not include death. As far as I know, practically every Mormon agrees with that. But you are asking questions that go beyond what is known, for example, was there death on the earth while the Garden existed; This is not explicitly stated in the scriptures (unless you want to view 2 Nephi 2:22 that way -- which I don't). I am confident that the Gospel allows for and even embraces evolution. Many LDS disagree, including my own mother, father, wife and 98% of my family. But it's OK, because we are allowed to believe as we will, as long as we don't go across the line into teaching.
Some Church leaders have supported evolution. Others vilified it. The official view is neutral, at the moment, as long as you believe that we are the literal children of God, which I do. Unfortunately, one of the vilifiers published against the advice of the then-current Prophet, and later became the Prophet himself. So many Churchgoers believe that he was right. I think that's <strike>nuts</strike> --uh, lacking in proper perspective. The current President of the Quorum of the Twelve apostles is the only one (IIRC) that still will occasionally speak out against evolution. Oh well - we disagree, and that's OK, within limits. I stay within those limits. I certainly don't believe in evolution sans Godly involvement.
Therefore, everyone has their opinion, and that's fine. We are all expected to think about these things, and, believe it or not, we're not all just robots automatically falling into step with what some former Church leader said. Some do choose that road, but I try not to be one of them, it didn't work for me. Uh, on some things, anyway...
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Addendum to my previous post...
I'm not saying , though, that the Holy Ghost & Lucifer are the same thing. While they do both seem to facilitate knowledge, their methods seem quite opposite. One teaches through light and the power of God, the other via shame and regret -- "Godly sorrow".
HiJolly
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Hi Jolly,
From what I have always understood, palladism was the Luciferian belief that Lucifer is a light-bearer and a bringer of knowledge, rather than an adversary. I probably do not understand the idea to its fullest extent, though.
<snip>
From http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/B...%20We%20Get.htm :
Origin of the Title "Lucifer": The term Lucifer is the English rendering of the Hebrew term hêlÙl ("shining or brilliant one"). The meaning of the Hebrew noun was preserved in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible through the Greek term he¿sphoros ("bright one," "morning star"). The English "Lucifer" comes from Latin; it renders the Greek he¿sphoros into the Latin lucifer, which simply means "light bearer, morning star."
So, I don't see where lucifer as 'light-bearer' is particularly "Luciferian". Then again, I have no idea what a "Luciferian" IS. It's not a term I'm familiar with. The temple seems to suggest that without Lucifer's involvement in the Garden of Eden, knowledge would not be possible to the children of Adam, so I guess I'm ok with him being a way of teaching us knowledge.
After all, if he (Satan) tempts me to steal my friend's best deck of Pokemon cards, and then I can't ever USE them because then my friend would find out, and so then I throw them away so I don't get caught but I see how sad my friend is and how I never really benefitted in any way, and in fact suffered for stealing them, well, didn't I learn something?
I can see how sin teaches us the good from the evil, via our experiences. So maybe Palladism isn't so bad after all? I dunno. Like I said before, I've don't recall having heard the term before.
HiJolly
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Welcome! I grew up in AZ. Hope you like it there.
HiJolly
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heh. I almost missed this question, in the midst of the other comments flying about...Good - I agree with you. What are your reason(s) then?
You had asked "Is there any reason to think that either souls or spirits are real things?" I said yes. First, I think that a 'soul' is the spirit and body combined. I think the spirit is the intelligence, housed in a spirit form provided by our Heavenly Parents. So, it looks like this: Intelligence >> spirit >> soul. Or you could say that the soul has 3 major components.
So, what's my evidence for that? None, specifically. In general terms, I have been taught a whole bunch of this kind of stuff since I was a little kid. BIC, and all that. As I grew, I began to put into practice the things I was taught, as Jesus taught:
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John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
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...and sure enough, as I exercized faith in the Church's teachings, I saw by the results that many, if not most, were true. This engendered faith to a further extent. So now I'm like a blind man, learning what voices in the crowd to trust, and what voices to distrust. It is an experential basis for action (ie, exerting faith). This is how I have arrived at my evidences, and thus my belief.
As to what they specifically are, I don't think my efforts to explicate them would be fruitful (or timely), so I will decline to share. Sorry, but I am confident that you can follow my same methods and arrive and equally meaningful evidences yourself, if you have not done so already.
HiJolly
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Yechy tone, Moksha. Ugh.So back to Jesus walking down to the Rescue Mission from Temple Square. Do you think any of the General Authorities would follow him in their limos?
Elders Bednar and Uchdoff could keep up as could some younger Seventies.
HiJolly
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HiJolly – Could it be that we are discussing two different meanings of the word spiritual? Many people say they have a spiritual experience when they see a sunset or hear Beethoven’s ninth (I am one of those people). Others say they are aware of a spiritual world – a place where spirits dwell – not of this earth.
Hmmm... I think they are not different at all. Like C.S. Lewis, I believe that the spiritual feeling we have when viewing a sunset or listening to beautiful music is spiritual because it 'reminds' us of our pre-mortal existence, where we experienced these things in greater perfection. As this world is modeled after that one, I don't think this is much of a stretch.
I am confident that things "not of this earth" are very real, indeed. Do you agree with that?
I notice you say "Others say...", but then don't comment on whether you believe it or not. Do you?
Yes, the Church says the Garden was on the earth, but does not specify whether that is the spiritual earth, or the physical one, or some possible gradation between the two. Unless I've missed something?When I said that the garden was an actual place I intended to say it was not in the spiritual world. It was of this earth.
That is what the church is saying.
HiJolly
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Has anyone on here ever read any quotes from Albert Pike, Albert Mackey, Eliphas Levi, and other Masonic authors?
Yes, I have read some quotes from Pike and Levi. I think it's good to keep in mind that these people come from a 'mystery' perspective, not the LDS perspective, which (the LDS) is a very, very practical approach to spirituality, God, and everthing else in manifestation. Where 'mystery' traditions and the occult seem to concern themselves with both the transcendent and the imminent, the LDS approach is to limit the focus to the imminent world, which is why I call it a 'practical' religion.
What's fascinating to me is that even though the LDS emphasis is clearly about living in the world and yet not being of it, it also points to the transcendent worlds by referring to 'mysteries' and things like "The Church of the Firstborn" in the D&C, much as the Bible does. Gotta love it! Something here for everyone...
I often wonder if early Masonic thought on the subject may have influenced early Mormonism. (or vice versa?)
I think there is no question about that, whatever. The influence is clear to those who look, IMO. I don't think that's a bad thing, myself. I don't buy into the nasty ideas about how evil freemasonry is. I think they do use terminology that scares the bejeebers out of ignorant men, though. "Prove all things" is excellent advice.
It seems that paladism and the belief that Lucifer was the Holy Ghost was a common topic among some of these authors and the fact that one cannot exist without the other. Sort of a "necessary evil" approach.
Brian, I don't really understand the word 'paladism'. Can you define it? Is there a definition that is acceptible to both those that believe conspiracy theories, and the Freemasons themselves? As for "necessary evil", that's what the Book of Mormon seems to teach, as you say in this next quote:
The church has taught that we wouldn't be here at all without the fall, though I'm not sure of all the thinking behind that.While Mormonism doesn't go to the extreme of this doctrine we still have the "opposition in all things" doctrine and the idea that evil is necessary for us to have good. We would never know happiness if we didn't know sadness. In the protestant world they think that evil exists only because of Satan's rebellion and man's depravity, and many think we would have been better off had Adam and Eve not have fallen.
HiJolly
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I might need to do a new thread on this (don't want to sully the great Tyler of the SSCE's thread with such nonsense)...
...and then you fearlessly proceed to comment... being a sheep, I'll follow right along...
I often have trouble squaring the influence of Joseph's worldview upon the BoM with the evidence for a tight translation process. IMO, the evidence for a tight translation outweighs that of a loose, and thus the ability for altering redactions by Joseph seems to be lessened... and least in my mediocre mind.
Well, sort of. I really like the results of Royal Skousen's research. I just wish I could afford the published results!!!!!!! I do think the evidence shows a 'tight' process, but I don't think that is necessarily exclusive from an influence from Joseph.
But, conversely, the evidence for Joseph’s influences seems overwhelmingly evident.
Indeed.
Yes, I have in the past, and I'm happy where I am now on the issue.Any of you peeps find yourself in a similar battle between the translation evidence and Joseph’s worldview within the text?
HiJolly
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I understand what you are saying but the official church web site makes it plain that the garden was an actual place. Not a spiritual place but a real, in-this-world place.
Here you are doing it again, Zeke. Why? Do you believe something spiritual cannot be 'actual' or 'real'? Why?
Literal in what sense, Zeke? You do realize that there are different levels of meaning in most things we see/hear in life, don't you?The church web site talks about real world things such as 'created a beautiful place on the earth', 'body of flesh and bones', 'able to walk and talk'. These are not spiritual things being described, they are physical.
I can understand how it must be difficult to except the literal meaning of these words but it seems you must.
HiJolly
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Zeke, forgive me for responding to this query to poulsenll...Then you are saying that the garden is not a literal truth? That there was never a physical garden?
I don't understand why you dichotomize 'truth' and 'physical'. Why are you doing this? Please, explain.
HiJolly
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Well, I sure think so. Remember that 'reason' is not anything like 'proof'.How do you mean that (…technically have “spirits”). Is there any reason to think that either souls or spirits are real things?
HiJolly
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But then you have to square the fact that human genes are directly related to other species that were outside the garden.
Yes, indeed. One must not ignore truth as we find it.
Yeah, I don't particularly like BRMcK or his father-in-law JFSJr's views on such things. I think they totally missed the boat when I comes to geologic and biological reality. Still great men in the Gospel, for sure, just a weakness in saying stuff they didn't 'know'. I think we all do some of that.As one of the church leaders said:
"If death has always prevailed in the world, there was no fall of Adam which brought death to all forms of life. If Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement. If there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, no eternal life, nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. If there is no salvation, there is no God. The fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself”. - Bruce R. McConkie
Really makes it hard to follow the logic of the garden.
HiJolly
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Ah, you got it right!! I loved the time I spent in the YM org. Hated it when I needed to move out of state (in my new ward they put me in as HP assistant - not at all as enjoyable<snip>
I'm a convert to the church and have the absolute best calling, short of being a full time missionary, because I get to work with the Young Men. I have to "sacrifice" by constantly telling mission stories, going out camping, spend one day a week and part of Sunday with a bunch of teenagers doing crazy things like canoing, hiking, or playing some kind of sport. (Which I'm usually bad at but provides lots of entertainment for the youth)
All in all heavenly Father has blessed me greatly and I realize it every day.
Daniel Elliott
). HiJolly
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Welcome, Maya! My heart goes out to you as I read your words. Thank God that He is real and loves us! Life is for the living, and we must live it and hope God grants us understanding, if not joy.
May our Heavenly Father bless you.
HiJolly
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Yes, that has been my experience.One of the topics we talked about in Sunday School class today was testimony and how it is received and applied by members of the Church.
In short, it appears that one of the biggest mistakes people make in the receipt and interpretation of a testimony is applying it too broadly to concepts that the testimony is not meant to apply to.
HiJolly
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Yes, that is my belief (not knowledge). and, yes, Hadji Ali is where I got my moniker from.Are you saying that life and death proceeded outside of the garden but did not occur inside? If so that would allow for natural evolution to take place everywhere but in the garden.
BTW – Did you take your moniker from that famous Quartzsite camel driver?
HiJolly
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I always thought it was "twinkled".
And I don't have any idea about the reversal of menopause being considered a 'healing'. I never thought of menopause being a sickness??
HiJolly
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Since the Book of Mormon was translated by the power and gift of God, through Joseph Smith, then JS's worldview had an impact on the process. At least, that's my view. As one who has received revelation and had to interpret it into my own language (English, in this case), I can easily see how this can be so.How do you figure[a 19th century worldview in the BoM]?
Adieu, anyone?
HiJolly
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I agree, in a really, really faithful way...Fair enough. I do think the BoM tends to contain 19th century Christian folklore.
HiJolly
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Sure...Modify the quote header? What do you mean? I have seen no such thing happening...
HiJolly
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...except maybe the Book of Mormon...I've never seen any scriptural evidence indicating that Satan wishes people to think he doesn't exist.
2 Ne. 28: 19, 21-23
19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.
23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.
HiJolly
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<whew> What a shot across the bow!! Nice post, Selek, and welcome!I apologize for the length of this rant, and look forward to talking to each of you in this forum. Hopefully, you can teach me quite a bit more about the true and restored Church of Christ, and in the same vein, I won't bore you to death!
HiJolly
I Miss Kyr
in General Discussion
Posted
I loved these Know Your Religion talks. They were mostly whereever the Saints were very strong, geographically. Utah, AZ... We'd go on Friday nights to various Stake Centers around the area, where the program was held. It is sad to see it go away.
HiJolly