jonathan.plumb

I don't believe either of them are opinions. I believe that whoever said them knew that they were true. That is why I think a Prophet said them, because it would be a revelation pertaining to all the children in the world. I thought Gordon B. Hinkley said the second one, but I couldn't ever find the reference. Thanks for the possible reference for the first. I'll look into more on it.

So I have two Second Coming quote questions. I have heard both of these general statements growing up but have been unable to locate who said them. I would appreciate it if anybody knows who said them, or knows if either of these quotes are completely untrue. Also, I do not know the exact quotes, so the following are just generally what I've heard: 1) Many people alive today will live to see the 2nd Coming 2) Today's children will be the generation that delivers the Church to the Savior at his 2nd Coming. Both of these, if they are accurate, sound like something that a Prophet would say, probably not something a general authority or what-not would say. So I guess that narrows down my search a bit, but I've still had no luck. I'm starting to think they're not true. Thanks.

I think there is a difference between wanting multiple wives for personal pleasure (as is clearly identified in that verse via the "concubines" additional reference). "No variableness ... of changing." God does not give a commandment to men for their benefit. All commandments given to men are of God.To clarify further, I do not lust after other women. It's not like I see them and want to use them, etc, but I actually desire to find many women that I feel I could spend all of time and eternity with. My intention is not to stir things up, don't think I'm trying to contradict anything our church teaches. But I honestly believe (as mentioned earlier, I have prayed...several times, regarding the topic) that although we are restricted in our current state, that when God returns and His law is returned to this planet, that plural marriage will again be an acceptable practice under righteous desires and conditions. This is the biggest reason why I was wondering others' input on desiring of other women (for righteous desires, not lustful, I guess I should have clarified that in my original post). That of course includes all the pleasures that come with being married, from intimate to reproductive, to just having friends around at all times that you can share every detail of your life with.

I don't have any sources, it was Googled research nearly a year ago. But I think you're right, I was thinking 150+ and 13-ish, but 1231 and 186 are pretty close to 10-times the numbers I was thinking, but the ratio is similar. However, the history of monogamy is not a "secret" and I'm sure you can find all sorts of sources easily on Google that verify the same information. I read I think 5 sources that all said the same thing, so it's not like I was looking at one source and taking it as truth. As for "desire" being part of the natural man, I don't understand where your sources are from. If I recall correctly, polygamy was a lawful commandment from God for about 75 years, before "man" decided it was bad for us. I ask you one question, who's law rules in heaven? Man or God?

Let's start with a brief (very brief) history of where monogamy comes from. I heard several rumors so I decided to research this topic myself. In a nutshell, monogamy was introduced by the Romans in a misbelief about why Catholic Priests were unable to be married. The Romans, several years after the Catholics instituded their policy for Priests to be unmarried, believed that the reason this was instituted was so that Priests could be "Married to God." At that point in time, it became popular belief that in order to be the most righteous, you could not have a spouse and that sexual relations was might as well be a sin. Somehow in all that mess, a law was instituded that basically said that IF you decide to get married, it can only be to increase the power of Rome, and even then you can only have 1 wife. And so Monogamy was born. However, the REAL reason that Priests were not allowed to be married was because there was a fluke of priests that were trying to give part of the church to their sons as an inheritance, which of course the church forbade, and caused all sorts of problems.... The doctrine of monogamy was carried over when Rome fell into all those parts of the world, and since the original settlers of America were from that part of the world, many of their core laws came with them. I don't remember EXACTLY off the top of my head, but there's something like 150+ recognized cultures in the world, and only 13 of them (give or take a couple) practice Monogamy. It is actually a very small belief system. Now we know that almost all of the Biblical prophets and many of our LDS prophets had more than one wife up until the 1900s when the US instituted stricter laws against it, and to conform with the laws (so we wouldn't get driven out of the promised land), we received revelation to stop practicing plural marriage. However, as far as I've found, plural marriage is STILL a celestial law, although it is temorarily not being practiced (just like drinking wine, the law of consecration, etc .... we're just not "ready" for them at this time). Now that all my mumbo jumbo is done, let me move on: Because of US laws, many people who are married who "look on" another woman get a feeling of guilt because often it can lead to illegal practices which obviously we don't support. HOWEVER, is there any actual "sin" or what-not related to desiring to have more than one wife? Just to clarify, I love my wife more than anything on this planet, and I would never want to substitute her or get rid of her or anything like that. She is a perfect angel in my eyes. However, I still find beauty in ALL women (regardless of race, weight, etc), and maybe I'm just trying to justify my "looking on other women," but I've researched it, and prayed about it, and find no fault. But others try to make me feel guilty, that is why I pose the topic to you guys. Your thoughts?

Well, although it is taught that every worthy male should go on a mission, it is also strongly taught that a mission isn't for everyone. Keep this in mind. If you don't feel a mission is for you, then guess what: your mission lies elsewhere in life. It's up to you to decide after your own prayers if you should join the military or go on a mission. Like I mentioned before, I didn't go on a mission, instead I got married and then joined the military. My life has been full of blessings and not one moment of doubt in my decision. Usually, at least in my experience, when God is trying to tell you you made the wrong choice, your life will be filled with uncertainty and doubt and a heavy burden on your shoulders that can only be lifted through repentance. I can testify to you that God approves of my choices in life (well, most of them ~) and I am not going to be held accountable in any way for my choice in not serving a mission. I hope you make the right choice for yourself. I think it's great that you're asking for advice, but don't feel condemned by the words that some people spew out. Not everyone is as understanding as they should be. I'm not knocking on you at all insertwittynamehere, in case you thought this was all aimed at your comment, since you weren't condemning him in any way, I'm just making sure the point is clear~

Okay, after reading 7 pages of arguments and taking notes on what I wanted to put in as my 2 cents, I thought I'd skip to the end. Hope what I say wasn't already talked about in the rest of the pages I skipped: 1) The way I was always taught about the degrees of glory is that there is 3 main degrees, the Telestial, Terestrial, and Celestial, from lowest to highest respectively. (spelling?) We know that the Telestal is equivalent to our current "Earth" however you want to imagine that. I believe it was Joseph Smith that said he was shown a glimpse of the two lowest and he had noted how great the higher was compared to the lower. Now none of this is doctrinal fact as far as I know, it's just what I've heard through the years, and some of it may even be inaccurate since I heard them so long ago, it may not even have been Joseph Smith....who knows. We also know that the Celestial Kingdom has multiple degrees of glory. And I even believe I've heard that the highest degree of glory (Eternal Life AKA Exaltation) has ranks, or callings as you could say. Some of those callings could even include becoming a God yourself and having the responsibility of maintaining what God maintains. I used to think Eternal Life just meant living forever, however I recently discovered that the phrase "Eternal Life" according to the church goes hand-in-hand with Exaltation. Oh one other degree (not of Glory, but not be forgotten about) is Outer Darkness. This is where the Sons of Perdition are with Lucifer (AKA Satan). None of us who are on Earth can end up in Outer Darkness UNLESS you have come to a full knowledge of God (actually seen him) and deny him....or something like that. If anyone knows of other ways, I'd love to be educated. Maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong....but that's how I've always viewed it. Also, from Joseph Smith stating he had seen and compared the two degrees of Glory, I'd have to disagree with an earlier comment about all the degrees being in the same place (just as a bum and a CEO can live in the same place). 2) On plural marriage: I believe that plural marriage isn't something that anyone in the church just DID. Someone had mentioned it being a "higher" order or something like that, and I believe that's absolutely right. You had to receive a calling, or maybe it was more of a request, that had to be approved in order to plurally marry. Maybe I'm wrong....don't quote me on this (unless you're proving me wrong hehe). 3) If plural marriage is said to be the only way to get to Exaltation, then does that mean I'm going to have to take another wife in Spirit Paradise or in the Resurrection in order to obtain Exaltation? 4) The reason the church quit practicing polygamy wasn't because of any revelation (as mentioned earlier). It was because one of the church's main fundamental beliefs is in obeying the law of the land, so when the US made it illegal the church did the same (although they were a little behind the US I believe, not 100% sure about timelines)......I think at least. I wonder if you are LDS and living in a country like Iraq where multiple wives is accepted, would it still be against the church to have more than one wife? 5) If plural marriage isn't accepted at all any more, doesn't that go against the teachings that prophets were so bold about back in the day? God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If God says the only way to Exaltation is through plural marriage, that doesn't change.....ever. 6) (Sorry for so many thoughts....I'm kinda like the Devil's Advocate as well....sometimes I respond merely to make more conversation) 6 cont...) I've always heard a reason for plural marriage in the beginning was to help increase the size of the church. Confirmation on this if anyone knows? 7) Muslims in Iraq practice plural marriage (not all, but some), but mainly from what I understand it's only to support the women of Iraq. I don't know for sure, but I'd say women definitely outnumber men in this world. Could use some facts if anyone knows for sure..... Thoughts, anyone? (don't need to ask....I'm sure criticism is on the way) Which brings me to another thought.....why all the negative feelings toward each other? Debates aren't supposed to make the other side look stupid, but to educate both sides more. This world is made of....LOVE AND PEACE! ~Vash the Stampede

I'd agree you can understand it in English, definitely. You can probably pull a lot out of it in English, even to the fullest it was intended. What I was only referring to is the Muslim belief about the "Holiness" of it being unaltered. I think that would include translations, since there are plenty of things in every language that just don't quite translate to another language. But who knows, I'm not a professional scholar of any kind, and I've never read the Koran myself. I've only had a conversation with probably around a dozen people or so, which isn't that many. Another note is that the Muslim religion radically changes from one area to another. Muslims in Baghdad for instance are quite different than Muslims in Mosul. Not on a widescale, but the little things.

I'm not psychic or anything, but I believe the infrastructure of Iraq is going to undergo a drastic change when we pull out no matter if we pull out tomorrow or in 10 years. I would say that once we get out, they'll want to re-do everything to how they want it, with no influence from Coalition forces. For example, our whole goal is to turn the area over to the Iraqi people so we can leave. However, just recently when presented with an OUTSTANDING idea by one of the National Police commanders, our chain of command shot it down and said they wouldn't let the police do it. Now, I won't go into more details than that, however I will state that this is absolutely not what our goal is here. A person can only learn from his own mistakes. I know in an ideal world a person learns from others mistakes, but this is the real world, and face it....we usually only learn for ourselves how hot the oven is when we put our own hand on it. So it all boils down to the simple fact that: no matter how many times we reject plans and what-not for even the best of reasons, as soon as we pull out they're going to need to learn everything for themselves and the entire country will go through a giant change again, and I'd assume another civil war more bloody than the one we're in now.

Doesn't knowing about another person's beliefs help you in A) befriending them and B) converting them? I never served a mission so I can't say for sure about the converting part, but as a soldier in Baghdad I can tell you that learning about the Muslim faith was one of the best things I could have done for learning how the people here think. The Koran is only officially written in Arabic. Any other translation is frowned upon. But yes, it has been translated, however even if you go into a Muslim Mosque in America, they will read for an Arabic Koran (I guess it's not a requirement, but probably a belief thing). Muslims believe that Mohammad's words can only be truly heard in the language he wrote it in. Let us not forget, as Shade mentioned briefly, that there are more than one kind of Muslim. As a matter of fact, the insurgents that were responsible for the attacks on 9/11 are not accepted by general Muslims in Iraq as being Muslim at all. They are radical persons who lost their faith and found a new one, or something like that. Can't remember exactly how most people here say it. But as for the people I have met, whether they me Shiite or Sunni, Insurgent or Local National, they are ALL respectable persons. Even the bad guys will invite you into their home, make you Chai Tea, sit down and talk calmly with you, and then try to blow you up later~ The bottom line is, don't generalize all Muslims into one category, especially when the ones you refer to are radicalists that aren't even accepted by the Muslim religion. That's like saying Polygamy and Latter-Day Saints are the same. ~~ I personally believe that Muhammad was a prophet of God. He tended and cared for people in the same manner Jesus did. He patterned his life to bring peace and hope to the people. Can you not say that this is most-likely a prophet? He also performed miracles. Muhammad believed strongly in Jesus and God the Father (I don't know about the Holy Ghost....haven't heard anyone over here mention that. You'd be surprised what you can learn from your interpreters =) ). From what I understand, the corruption came after Muhammad died. And there's really not a whole lot of corruption. It's only that the Shiites and Sunnis disagree on certain core values.~ Anyways, back to the original topic. I don't think Joseph Smith read the Koran. Mainly because there really weren't any middle-easterners in the US at that time, so it's unlikely that a Koran drifted over. The English translations weren't in America, they were in Europe. So that really limits Korans in America to possible Museums only. I don't even think you'd find them in Libraries except on very rare occasion. However, the scrolls he got for the Pearl of Great Price he did get from a person with Egyptian mummies and papyri and what-not, so it could very well be possible he was some form of Museum owner or someone that could have owned a Koran and passed it on as well. Who knows for sure, but as for me, I'll believe the he did not read the Koran, but could have still thought well of the Muslim people.

I recently (well 2 years ago) went through basic training for the Infantry at A-258 (which to all rumor beliefs is equivalent to Marine training, though I can't confirm that). I also did not go on a mission because of my own worldly ambitions. Instead I met my wife, got married, lived for a year or so before joining the Army. I can tell you a few things in this situation: 1) Basic training has 0 spirit. And I mean ZERO. Sure, I got to go to church almost every Sunday and what-not, but surrounded by people who swear and talk about immoral deeds all day long takes a toll on your spirituality. Luckily I had a friend who was LDS that went through with me, so we could lean on each other. Had he not been there, things could have turned out nasty. He held my head high when I was down and vice versa. 2) Advanced training is the same as above, but a little better, because you have more free time and you can study scriptures more often. This wasn't the case for me because Infantry training and advanced training are combined into one long basic training course, but I've heard about other training from friends and what-not. 3) On the brighter side, I have never once regretted not going on a mission since I joined the military. Before that I did, but since I joined I have considered the military as my service to God AND my Country. The opportunities for spiritual stuff isn't as often, and over here in Iraq there is still 0 spirit, but I can become friends with the people I work with much better than the time given in Basic and can slowly push more and more gospel onto them. So saying that here's my recommendation. If you're set on joining the Marines right now, you won't end up going on a mission. As said earlier, we're at war, and they won't let you go on a mission if your unit is deploying. However you CAN always go on a mission first, however a mission changes a person more than you think. I haven't been able to recognize a single friend that has come back from a mission. It's like meeting them all over again. So you're probably going to have to choose between the two. A mission will definitely tune you more to the spirit, while the military can do both if done right. There is a LOT of temptation to do wrong in the military, so you have to be careful. For me, there is swearing, smoking, drinking, pornography, and immorality of all other kinds every time I turn a corner. It will be a constant battle for your soul, which some days will be better than others. I'm not trying to discourage you in any way, because I love the military life. I'm just warning you of things you may not have thought of.

First off, justifying Iraq. I'm not here to fight for Iraq. I'm here to fight because I was ordered to come here. Now, what's the point of just coming, doing my time, and leaving. I might as well do all I can to make this place a better place while I'm required to be here anyways. No, I don't fully agree with the war. Now, it brings a different perspective when you're actually over here. Who cares about the insurgents or Osama. When you see the people here and how badly they need help, you'll have a change of heart. So my goal while I'm over here is to do all I can to make Iraq a better place for its people. Now on to the Moroni comment. I'd entirely disagree. Just as Nephi had to make a decision when commanded to slay Laban, Moroni would have to make his own decision based on the commands from the President on whether he would slay Osama or not. In this case, I'd have to assume Moroni would be able to see the poverty and destruction caused by the lead of this single man, and would not hesitate to kill him. I, myself, will not hesitate to kill him if I find him. There are of course always things that will change that, like as if Osama is surrendering or what-not, then let the courts deal with him. Moroni was definately a person who is firm in following commands. That is why Moroni will be the Angel that flies through the heavens to announce Christ's second coming, and why Moroni will undoubtedly be one of the highest in the chain of command in the war against Satan. ~

Well, this is just the "plan" which we all know changes on nearly a daily basis. It's what I expect to happen, but until our orders are actually cut, we're still leaving theater in June. Though I've already told my wife to expect to be extended. People over here make Air Force jokes until they see a 2000lb JDAM drop.....then as they're changing their underwear they realize that was one of the coolest things they've seen.I recently looked into moving to the Air Force, after hearing rumor they were recruiting from the Infantry. However I found that to be false....so guess I'm stuck with the Army for a while longer. You're right. Well according to the Book of Mormon he was the Captain of "The" Nephite Army. So who knows exactly how the whole thing was set up back then, but that could, I guess, be equivalent to the General of the Army nowadays, however I've never thought it to be such. We also don't know about the rank structure of the Army back then. Captain could have been as high as you get, or it could have been similar to today's rank structure. Who knows? Our Army's rank structure today is based off the European rank structure, so it's unlikely the early Native American's had the same structure, after running themselves for roughly a thousand years away from the Eastern continent.

So....after reading page 1 and then replying...I noticed that my reply went on page 4. Doh...didn't realize there was more than 1 page. I guess the Bush bashing stopped....so sorry about that. Anywho....here's a front-line trace from Iraq, for those who don't know what's going on: The war is over. It's been over for years. There are about the same amount of people targeting American Forces in Iraq as there would be in any country we go to. Here's the problem: We're trying to intervene in a civil war. We're trying to be Iraq's "Police Officers" instead of properly training the Iraqi Police to do it themselves. You have the Shiites and Sunnis fighting for control, and we happen to get in the middle, a little too often. That's where all the US casualties are coming from. Very very few are caused by attacks targeted at US troops. Now yes, there IS still a few groups here targeting US troops, but in my 8 months being here, moving into my 9th now, I've seen 1 organized attack against US forces. That's not a whole lot if you ask me, but I dunno. Everyone of course has their own opinion. This one is mine. Maybe I'm not seeing the bigger picture since I'm not a Brigade or Division commander, but that's what it looks like from my level. So back to Moroni. What would he do now? What would he do if he saw the war was over and we were still here? Do you think he would push to pull out? Do you think he would just stop caring because he's frustrated with all the BS that goes on? The answer is simple....NO. Moroni would be here because his Commander in Chief says the job is not done and he needs to be here. Moroni would push forward every day doing mission after mission to accomplish the goals set out for him. He wouldn't give up, he wouldn't rip on the President if he thought it was all in vain. Now there is definitely a line there. Moroni probably would not follow any order that violated his beliefs taught to him by his Fathers and God. He would definitely be a man of high morals and standards who followed the rules. I can't say exactly what he would say if he DID disagree with an order, but I'll leave that for you all to imagine. So I, as would Moroni, am here simply because I have been commanded to be here. The job is not done. I'll continue to do my mission every day to the fullest, because there's a job to be done, and the sooner it gets done, the sooner I get to go home and see my wife and kids. BTW Outshined. I was supposed to be turning over our battle space on June 11th....but the word just came down to expect to be extended for 3-6 months. Nothing official yet, but I'm planning on being here a bit longer, so if you come to Baghdad (FOB Falcon) I might see you around~

This is an interesting thread. I'm new to these forums and was browsing around and this definitely stuck out, seeing as I'm currently deployed rolling into my 9th month in Baghdad. ( Army C co 5-20 Infantry ~ 11C Infantry Mortarman .... not a Marine, but no disrespect either way, everyone does a job over here ). First off, in defense of Pres. Bush. He really has no say of what's going on over here. Invade and Surge are the only things he's done/doing. Everything else has been the Generals over here or there, so lay off the man, he's doing the best he can with what he can. If you haven't followed the news much, Congress and what-not has rejected nearly every plan Bush has laid out. He finally set his foot down with this surge plan, even though Congress said No again. If you haven't been here, you wouldn't understand. Stop trying, because you can't. The news can only report certain things. They're under contracts to only report certain things. If they report what they're not supposed to, they are banned from our units. It's how it works....it's how it's always worked. So there's no way someone in the states can understand what's going on unless you step foot over here. Plus....Pres. Bush has a great sense of humor! Have you seen anyone else able to throw out jokes while under stress and pressure? Maybe, but not in a position like his! Anyways, back to the topic. Moroni would definately not be a General. If you look at it, Moroni didn't command ALL of the Armies. He only commanded HIS part of the Army. I'd place him more at Colonel level, in charge of a Brigade, in today's Army. Maybe we could give him a little more credit and compare overall sizes of military and say "Okay" and throw him as a 1 or 2 star General in charge of a whole Division, but that's probably pushing it. The reason I say Brigade Commander in today's Army is because Brigade Commanders still get front-line action, probably equivalent to what Moroni got. He wasn't always front-line....he had to stand back and command at times (assumptions in mind....we don't have enough details about his command to know for sure), yet he also was able at other times to be front-line and get his hands dirty. He would be high enough in the chain-of-command to get respect wherever he went, whether respect of person or respect of rank. If he said something, everyone listened intently. I'd imagine he always would wear a smile, or as often as possible, has a warm feeling when he was around, like you knew he'd protect you with all his means. Lower ranking soldiers would often aspire to be like him, maybe even adopting (AKA stealing) certain catch-phrases or gestures he did around others. I could see him carrying an M4, like the men below him. He wouldn't have anything fancy or expensive on it, just the basics. Maybe an M68 sight and a PEQ4 infrared laser (which is real basic if you know much about military weapons now-a-days). This would be to show he placed himself at soldier level, to boost soldier morale in a subtle, unnoticed way. I don't even imagine him having an M9 pistol, because usually people who have M9s are the lazier ones that don't want to lug around a rifle around the base and what-not (Snipers and Heavy gunners excluded....since their weapon systems are too exotic to not have a smaller weapon for defense). His armor would be what was issued to everyone else. I also could see him very often walking around greeting people. More often than not, by himself (or with a battle-buddy~). Outside the wire, he'd be very quick in judgment. His attention to details would save people over and over. The spirit would guide him and his men to safety over and over. His men would be able to tell countless stories about near-death experiences and the miracles of being alive. Some wouldn't be able to link that it was their Commander who protected them, while others would easily notice the power of the spirit around him. I could probably go on for a while, but I'm sure you all get the picture. That's at least the type of person I'd see Moroni as in Iraq today. I'd love to hear others views on how they would see Moroni today. Stop Bush-bashing, it serves no purpose and doesn't end the war any sooner. If you're mad at him for some reason, just realize there's nothing you can do about it and being mad is only wrecking your day and nobody else's. Having an opinion is one thing, everyone is entitled to, but don't talk like you know everything about a situation and try to persuade others to negative feelings, it's not helping anyone stay alive, and believe me, staying alive is one of my highest priorities right now.~