Nina

It seems to me that there could be lots of reasons to go to another church while awaiting the arrival of the "True" church. Curiosity, an opportunity to share what you have learned to be the truth, to understand what others believe, to be with your family ... I am sure there are others. Just attending another church does not mean you believe or disbelieve what is being taught I should think that that is obviouse (sp?).

I am really quite concerned for you JL. .

Happy Birthday !!!

It seems to me that a little sign that reads "just married" is probably not the problem ... however, having cans dragging, and shaving cream all over the car is just a bit tacky in light of the sacred covenants made in the temple. They aren't saying "don't go out an celebrate afterwards" they are just saying, IMO, to respect the sacred moment and the sacred place where you have just made eternal ties... leave the grounds with dignity. I'm not sure they really care, within reason of course, what you do afterwards ... what's the problem with decorating the car as you leave the reception ??? Shantress< "I know what 'you Mormons' believe, as I was one myself." Shantress, just because you have been a member does not mean you understand what we believe ... I'm not saying that you, personally, do not but there are many people in and out of the church who totally misunderstand the doctrine of the LDS church so having been a member at one time is not a credential of truth.

"Nina---should we also bring up in the class on PoGP, that there is serious controversy about the origins of the Book of Abraham? In lessons on the WoW should we point out that JS drank wine, and that BY and the Church ran a brewery not far from the Tempe in SL, and that the Salt Lake temple had spitoons (sp) for chewing tobacco? In lessons on the fulfillment of revelations, should we point out the ones that were never fulfulled, and never can be? My point: there are lots of things that defy logic and reason. If we are concerned about the existance of a few myths, then SS and PH classes are the wrong places to be. Just enjoy the SPRIRIT of the lessons, not the rational content " First ... did I imply any of that???? I just said that if you hear something that isn't true you should probably speak up. Certainly lots of truths defy logic and reason, I absolutely agree ... for instance reasonably I have a hard time with visions and things of that nature but the spirit has testified to me of the TRUTH of these things so I believe. However, if a person tells me something that is untrue and I know it is untrue I have a hard time just accepting it especially when they are passing it on to other people I know and care about ... even if it is essentially harmless ... Second ... so you are saying that I should forget what is actually being said and just "enjoy" the spirit ????? I am not too sure the spirit is pleased with misinformation but I will give it a try . Uh, well, no ... on second thought I will probably not but thanks for the advice ... and before I get jumped on let me clarify ... I do agree that if someone is giving a lesson or a talk and it is as boring as all get out or is badly worded or is a bit confusing or is less than stellar in it's syntax, grammer, creativity, delivery etc ... I WILL feel the spirit and ignore what is being said because that is when the spirit works ... when TRUTHS are being told no matter how badly they are being conveyed.

Pull up a chair and stay a while ! Welcome ... :)

Holy Hoola ... did I make a wrong turn and end up in a singles bar?

Amilla we must have been posting at the same time so I will reply now to your reply to me "I agree with most of your post Nina, but I don't believe it is disobedient to follow the Lord's personal plan for you, just because it doesn't include the mission as recognized by the church leadership." "There are so many young men who are destroyed when they come home early. What if they weren't meant to go in the first place and their failure was due to that fact? Some only go because of peer pressure and it turns out really bad for them. Maybe they really felt like this bishop's son, that they weren't to serve a mission, but felt compelled to anyway. Can you really just dump everyone into the same mold? Christ wouldn't I don't think." Okay, let me just say this about that ... I agree that you should follow the Lord's personal plan for you, I also agree that you cannot dump everyone into one mold as you say. I also know that sometimes it is hard, especially when we are younger to know all that we need to or should do (but of course we would never admit this). I am a perfect example ... I went on a mission ... I came home early for the very reasons you describe ... I thought the Lord had a different plan for me ... I thought I knew better than the Genreal Authorities and that I should be somewhere else doing something else ... I was so smart so in tune with my own destiny ... well you know what? I wasn't. The Lord did know what was best for me and the General Authorities did know where I should be. Now, years later, I regret so much not staying and working hard and pushing through the difficulties that every mission has. For as many people you know who say their lives where destroyed by going on a mission I probably know just as many who did not go on missions or who came home early and now that they have more spiritual and mental maturity kick themselves in the butt (Oops,can I say "butt" here? ) really grieving for the opportunity they missed to serve the Lord. My point is that when the Lord commands we should obey even when it is hard or a struggle or even when we don't know why ... As for your gentleman who wants to go into the Armed Forces perhaps that is were he belongs (but maybe he belongs there in two years)I know of many instances during WWII where missions where suspended so that young men could serve their country but I think that is only for he and his leaders to decide and then they and the Lord can work it out ... if he doesn't get his endowment right away because of his choice ... well, wouldn't you agree that that is the Bishop's call?(guided by Our Father of course)?. It seems to me that the young man knows the score and what the consequences of his choice will be (and all of those consequences might not be bad) and can make his decision accordingly ... I don't know if it's up to us to decide if it's "fair" or not.

"Our bishop told it to our neighbor, who was our bishop 10 years ago, just two nights ago. So did this bishop lie?" Now I know you are not directing this to me but I would like to say that it is a very unfair question to pose nor is it one that can be answered by anyone here (but maybe could be by you who have the people and facts at your disposal ... ) Since at least two of us on this board (evidenced by our replies) know of people who have recently gone through the temple at earlier ages than that which you specified it is obvious that your statement regarding the age restriction is not entirely accurate(or should I say it is not "set in stone") ... but to ask if your Bishop was then lieing is not something anyone here can answer ... From what you say it seems as though you heard your present Bishop's statement that their is an age limitation through your neighbor ... well, maybe your neighbor misunderstood or exagerated or something ... if not that then maybe your Bishop was advisedthat he should weigh carefully before allowing young men and women to go to the temple and expressed it more strongly than just as a rule of thumb (if he was so advised) or maybe that was just his opinion. I totally agree with Kevin that each young man or woman (or old man or woman) reaches maturity at different times and different ages and that that is weighed in the balance when deciding when to take out your own endowment. I remember when I joined the church (at 26) and I wanted to go to the temple after about 6 months membership ... I had heard that a young man in my stake had gotten permission to get his endowment out before his 1 year member mark had been reached. I REALLY wanted to get my endowment out too and went to the Bishop with this request. He turned me down and encouraged me to just keep on preparing. I was a bit miffed (maybe more than just a little )at first but soon I realized the wisdom of his remarks and decision ... I mention this because it makes it clear that not all "rules" are unbendable. Don't get your britches in a bunch over what was probably a misunderstanding or a personal opinion.

Is this age restriction a new requirement? I had a friend who is 23 get her Temple recommend just last summer and you stated that people have to be in their late twenties. I also would comment that a temple recommend is a very serious undertaking. Once you have it and attend the temple any indiscretions or failures to meet the requirements will have consequences. I know that you HAVE to have your temple recommend to go on a mission and likewise to get sealed so there is a real reason to get one at that time at that age I am not sure I would want my son, if he is choosing not to obey a commandment and go on a mission, to get his TR regardless. I mean by choosing NOT to go on a mission he is choosing NOT to obey Heavenly Father's command of young men and I guess I would think ... should he then be rewarded with further light and knowledge when he clearly doesn't understand what he has? If, in fact, he(or she) does not go on a mission because he(or she) is ill or has a disability that does not allow him(or her) to go but is otherwise worthy I really truly think that if he(or she) went to his bishop or stake authorities they would take that into consideration. I know of a young man who is, I think, twenty and he just (last month) recently got his endowment out and received the Priesthood but was not allowed to go on a mission because he has a child he needs to support...so it (the age requirement) cannot be set in stone. IMHO ... Nina

Thanks for the clarification and the links Kevin :) ... I'll check them out ...

Welcome to the board pooch... I say call him on it or at least infom the class that the information is false ... people pass that stuff on. You don't have to do it in a mean, "I know better than you NaaNaaa" way (shame on you Snow ) you can be very nice about it and say you just happened to run into some information that disproved what was spoken about in class and just thought you'd make the correction for anyone interested.

"not that I have anything to add to this convo, but I wanted to point out that we're naming our son Isaac" I have an Isaac ... GREAT name !!!

I am displaying my ignorance for all to see but I just have to ask ... what is FARMS? FAIR? ZLMB? I assume the later two are some sort of talk forums? Thanks ...

"i could have done just as effectively what i'm doing now with two years on-the-job training out of high school rather than waste seven years and lots of money." Maybe your looking in the wrong places ... I find it hard to believe that with a law degree you can't find a job that requires more of you. As for people not believeing that a College or University education is helpful in pursueing a job, well, that just seems silly to me and not very well thought out. Certainly there are people who succeed beautifully without a college education ... some are even millionaires ... but to suppose that that is the norm is a bit niave. Likewise I believe that some people WITH degrees fail miserably despite themselves ...( maybe a few of those doctors previously mentioned ) Look at the population in this land that are in poverty and I bet you that most of them do not have college degrees. I am not saying that their lack of education is the sole cause of their indigence or that their lack of education is entirely their own fault (often more of circumstance) but certainly you have a much better shot at a good job if you have an education. I am a case in point. I am a Director. I Direct and produce musicals.I write music and musicals. I have an asociates degree... I can find very few people who will even consider hiring me because I lack the (4 year) credentials ... even though you would think that the arts is one area where, if you excell (which I do ) you would not be required to have a degree. However, people/employers like to see that piece of paper and I think it means something. It (that piece of paper)is representative of your knowledge and commitment. I am not saying that people who have life experience and on the job experience (as myself) don't have the same knowldege and commitment but it is not always immediately evident when applying for a job. Further I would say that a window cleaner of a high rise makes oodles more money than, let's say, an accountant ... likewise people who work in the subway tunnels of N.Y. and MA make a fabulous hourly wage however I am not sure I would encourage my child to forgo college in the hopes of landing such a glamorous and no doubt fullfilling job. Anyway, good luck Jackvance finding a better job than the one you apparently have ... I know quite a few lawyers in SLC and they seem to think the job market is not as bleak as you fear ... keep looking !!! And IMHO your mission is one of the best thing you have ever done even though college had to wait two years ... your friends who did not get that experience may have more money but I bet in the long run you will have far more peace and joy knowing you fulfilled one of God's commandments. :)

Amen !!! Your not being a jerk but if you still think you are then I say, "keep it up!" ... better a jerk today then miserable in eternity !!!

Okay ... I am having a little trouble understanding ... or maybe I don't want to ... are there any references you could give me that state that a child is sealed only to their father in the event that they (the parents) are divorced before temple blessings are bestowed on the parents ? I get the whole patriarchal thing but I just need some clarification ... Thanks

In traveling I hope you find your destination. Best of Luck!

I have a friend who was sealed to her spouse, they had two children and were later divorced (temple and civil). She is still sealed to her children. So is he. I have a few other friends who unfortunately have gone threw similar scenarios and the same applied... while their sealing was annulled they remained sealed to their children ... I do not know if this holds true for each and every temple divorce (there seem to be exceptions to every rule) but I imagine it is the norm.

"Actually, FYI, only 11 of the hits to Rodney King were illegal. Everything else, mace tasers, etc., were legal. It wasn't until after a police officer hit him in the back of the neck with his boot that all the hitting became illegal." Oh, well, if it was only 11 ...

First let me just admit upfront that I have not read this ENTIRE thread in detail because ... well ... it is just too lengthy and I jumped in rather late so if I am asking something that has already been established I do apoligize. Having said that I would still really appreciate and answer if someone wouldn't mind. huma 17< "BLOOD ATONEMENT WAS NOT TAUGHT AS A DOCTRINE TO BE PRACTICED BY ANY MODERN DAY PROPHET. It was spoken of as a means to get points across." It is my understanding that blood atonement was practiced by people in the LDS church early in their (our) history. My questions are as follows: 1)Did "Mormons" actually practice blood atonement? I think yes but this quote makes me question ... 2)If they did practice blood atonement did they do this at the time of BYoung? 3) If so, did BYoung ever speak to the saints about this misunderstanding and that they should NOT practice blood atonement only consider it's spiritual implications and applications? 4)If this did not occur during BYoung's lifetime (occuring later after his death) did any other prophet speak against the actual practice of Blood Atonement to their people who might have misunderstood? Thanks for any replies and again I apologize for jumping in so late with material that may have been covered.

I soooooooo agree with you Winnie !! The acting was also less than stellar!

hmmmmmm.

I agree that apostasy is something that plagues religion and will continue to do so on "local" levels. Amature? You underestimate yourself ! :)

I am sorry that I cannot supply you with the tapestry as of yet ... I am going to research Northern Italian Tapestries and see what comes up. A Note: The apostasy refers to a period of time in which "pure" religion was taken from the earth ... certainly parts of christianity remained that is why so many churches have portions of the whole truth in this day and age. That being said I think it is significant that a portion of the temple ceremony would be preserved in a tapestry ... but as I said (and admitted at the begining of these meanderings) I do not have my thumb on the tapestry as yet. I will hunt.