wiley

Whether you should tell your wife or not; I think the answer is in you. It is good that you stopped it and you feel better. But something is still bugging you; something that will not allow you to let it go. If you are honest with how you feel, you will make the right decision. I'm not telling you what the right decision is, though I personally agree with the consensus here. However, if the right answer is to tell your wife, then perhaps this thread would be better titled, "How do I tell my wife and keep my marriage?" Perhaps people can give their opinions as to the best way to handle the situation so that in the end, the family is strengthened instead of torn apart. Perhaps the wives here could have useful advice. If this happened to you, how would you want your husband to come clean? What would you want him to do to make amends; to show you that he really loves you and is committed to the family? My advice, which is only my opinion and not complete, is that it is time to find that sex appeal you had for your wife before. To find what it was about her that kept you so faithful to her before. It has been my experience that if that appeal has been lost, it wasn't a result of your spouse changing, but rather you. And it is your choice to find that kind of love again for your spouse. (I'm not speaking to you robbie specifically here.) (But now I am.) This is a generic way of saying this, but it is time to be that perfect husband. Not the one that does everything right by other's standards, but the one that is perfect to your wife. The one she dreamed about marrying in the first place. The one that makes her feel like she is the most important person in your life. The one that when other women see how you treat your wife, they grow jealous and wish their husbands would do the same. Each woman is different in how they like to be shown love, so I can't tell you exactly what I think you should do. And absolutely women and men differ here. Men know how they want to be loved. Women know how they want to be loved. But often I see men showing love to their wives the way that the men want to be loved. I see the same to be true to women. Show your wife love the way SHE wants to be loved. Only you know what that is, and if you don't, it is time to learn. I think that is also the best way to be a father to your children as well. I'm speaking a little in fantasy here, I know. After 10 years of marriage, I hope I will be just as crazy about my wife as I am now. I'm not there yet, so it devalues my advice a little. But do I think it is possible? Absolutely yes.

Those who follow the commandments, obey the prophets, read the scriptures, pray night and day and pay a full tithing, etc., will receive blessing that others will not receive. The church teaches that blessings are a good thing - realistically they will make you happier - as you are blessed in your earthly life and on the other side. If you are unworthy to receive these blessings you will not be as happy on earth or return to the Celestial Kingdom. ~friend This kind of statement is something that my wife and I hear regularly in church. But we often wonder at such attitudes. My question is, by following the commandments of the church, are we happier in life than those who do not follow the commandments. To expand the question a little.... Can others find happiness in life by following other paths than that of the LDS church? What if you decide to marry civily and not get sealed right away. Does that mean you are not as happy as those who are already sealed? The straight and narrow leads to eternal happiness. That is what we are taught. But what does that really mean? Does it refer specifically to the CK, or does it include this Earthly life as well? Just interested in getting your viewpoint. It is not something that I can ask straight up in Sunday School.

Good stuff Big Picture. It's always interesting to see things like this. Thanks for bringing it. WordFlood has a point, though. For myself, I don't feel a need to defend my faith. The church helps me make my life better. And I believe it's teachings. If something else works better for others, I hope they are happy.

Very good thoughts Emma. I agreed with what you said. I look forward to talking to you about history in other threads.

I looked to see where you live Yediyd. Too far from me. But if nothing else, for this group here on this websight, I hope us priesthood folk can learn from this lesson. It's convenient to critized them [Yediyd's PH's] in their failings and say that we all have our faults. But can we say that we are going to look harder in our own wards for parents in need? Will we see where we can do better? Perhaps someone in our ward is also falling through the cracks. Let's learn from this guys so that we don't have to use the "nobody's perfect" reasoning for ourselves if we fail ourselves. Maybe Yediyd's PHs will come around, maybe not; let's hope. But let's make sure that we hear the message loud and clear. This goes for the girls of the ward as well, and also certainly applies to RS. But I think they are better about such things in general than we are. I saw one guy here show how he stepped up. Kudos to him. Not saying anyone else hasn't. Just that we should be more observant towards the families in our ward.

We didn't get any specific blessing over here. I did what I was asked, and it made me feel good. That's all I really want anyways. It counterbalances the times when I don't do what I'm asked. It allows me to say, "Well, at least in this area, I was perfect." I guess that is why I like to pay tithing. It's one of those few and unique commandments that where we can actually measure how well we follow that commandment, and you can, at the end of the year, say you did so perfectly. But this is not a tithing thread. But like I said, no specific blessings. I'm happy enough that we have a roof and food on the table. ::Now if we could just combine the two....roof and table. That is, if we could just learn to eat at home more often. We go out to eat WAY to much. It makes my belly get bigger

I couldn't tell you myself. I don't think I have ever killed an animal in my life, except mosquitos. I even let the fish go when fishing. I only fish when someone wants me to go with them. I don't really understand hunting. But a lot of people like to do it here in Utah. I've heard you could even do it online (not in Utah; south somewhere). You point the cursor at an animal feeding and click the button. On the other end, a gun shoots and they send you the meat. Kind of odd to me.

Your kids believe the deer hunt is a national holiday. When I first came to Utah, I had to ask why everyone was taking vacation at the same time? My father-in-law rarely made my wife's birthday, because he always went hunting. Even when it is not hunting season, the hunters are still on the prowl. Their idea of family bonding is to pile into the truck and go look for deer. Once we saw a coyote, which I guess is always allowed to be shot. The dad wanted his six shooter NOW!. He was going to take shots at the coyote that was 200-400 yards away. I was a little nervous. Also the time the sons were trying to shoot a bird out of the sky. I kept thinking, what goes has to come down somewhere. And don't forget about the 24th of July. I didn't understand why the University was closed, fireworks were being shot, big parades were going on. At first I just shrugged my shoulders and thought they didn't get enough of the 4th of July. I'm still not sure which holiday is bigger in Utah.

No, no. I was just having fun. I liked it.

LilMiss, Can I just applaud your efforts to try and help this person initially. I think you did the right thing by trying to help her out and bring her back into the fold and, but you were rewarded with contention, lies, and... well, someone who tried to break up your family. I can just feel the anger your husband must have gone through as he had to explain to his wife what he was being accused of and hoped she believed him. It would be very emotional for me. (Personally, I would be hard pressed to forgive someone who tried to destroy my family.) It is unfortunate that this had to happen despite your desire to help her repent. It shouldn't be this way, but I suppose it can happen. Perhaps one day, she will try to right all the wrongs she did to your family. That said, I believe C_K is right Perhaps she too will be able to find forgiveness in the Lord's eye for all that she has done. I hope she is able to. He knows of all I have done, and I hope to find his forgiveness in that day as well. I hope you will find the strength to be able to move past this and be able to forgive her in your heart as well. Like I said before, this would be very difficult for me to do. But I still think it would be the right thing to do and I would applaud you even more if you were able to do it.

This is a very good answer. I just hope that my wife and I will have the strength and understanding to be able to do such. I still don't know if it is completely true that it will be absolutely necessary. I have been told by local church leaders (stake pres. and such) that a monogomous relationship in the CK is sufficient to recieve the highest of glories. But this is such a under-revelated topic, IMO, that I'm not sure the reality of such is clear, at least to the general public. Thanks mamacat for piping in here. It is not lost to me that all of the posters in this thread are male. The whole concept of Everlasting Covenant was never a concern for me until I started looking at it though my wife's eyes. I wonder if it were reversed (theoretically), that is if we had to share our wives with many men, but I got to be the "first husband", how our responses would be. I would be interested if you could expound on your above thought. It's OK if you don't, but I would like to hear from your perspective. How modern do they have to be?I changed me av'tar jus so Mr. T knows whos he talkin to

Nice to meet you David. You can ignore the tone of the initial post. I was just being dumb. And as far as criticisms and religious discussions go, I have no to very little interest in such topics with them. They are not the right people to discuss such things.

Some say yes, some say no. I was hoping some have figured this out and it wasn't just me. Let me clarify a few things though. My question has nothing to do with polygamy here on Earth, in the past or if ever the future. I do not believe that polygamy is never an evil practice when command by the Lord such as the case with Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Solomon, David (except of course his big blunder), and even JS. It is an evil practice when the Lord does not command it such as with the Nephites and today. On that note, I believe that men like Enoch, Noah, and Job were monogomous, showing that not all men were commanded to live in a polygamous relationship during the OT era. I could be wrong on these accounts, but the point is still the same. To me, Jacob 2: 30 explains all why the Lord commands polygamy at one time or another. The purpose is to bring about children. In the case of polygamy during our history, I wonder if anyone has ever tried to figure out how many children were born and what affect that had on the church. What would the church be like today if polygamy never took place? It wouldn't surprise me if the LDS church would not have been as significant today in that "alternate universe". SO, I'm content with the knowledge that I only need to be sealed here to my wife. Even if, though unlikely, the Lord ever reinstates polygamy before I die, I don't think I will be required to do so. I expect to fall in to that large group of Mormons that did not practice polygamy, and still be eligable for exaltation. BUT, my question is....when my wife and I have died and moved on , and we have been the "perfect" followers of Christ, which I can say because this is my fantistical future prediction, and thus we are completely forgiven of our sins and have inherited eternal life, will we be escorted into a heavenly office and asked to seal more women to our family? And if we are not comfortable with that, will the "office manager" say, "Oh, well sorry, we can't offer exaltation, but here is another very nice place in the Celestial palace for you and your wife to inherit. Oh, by the way, you will not be able to procreate. But I think you will be happy there."? I look forward to your responses. Some may have felt they have already answered this question, but maybe I didn't follow you, so if you could please clarify. Thanks

So, my wife and I have a question about eternal marriage. This has to do with the new and everlasting covenant as described in D&C 132. The question is simple. Do we have to live in a polygamous relationship in the Celestial Kingdom in order to receive exaltation? Polygamous is an earthly term, but the concept is the same. Another way to ask the question. Is it possible to just be sealed to your wife and still have the promise of exaltation?

They are not hiding. I just wonder if your not seeing them. This person may not be the right one for you, but many of the women of the church are by far more in tune with the spirit than many of the men. I have not yet met a single guy whom I consider a spiritual giant that did not have his wife to thank for it. The thing about following the promptings of the spirit is that it's not so cut and dry to everyone. That is not to say that they don't feel or recognize the spirit. But for many, including myself it is actually a bit of a challenge to understand promptings and act upon them. I'm sure you are aware of that, and I envy you that you are able to. Me, I had this huge issue while on my mission. I was trying to understand these promptings. We would walk by a door, I would think that I had a prompting (or at least wonder to myself, is this prompting or a random thought?) Well I won't tell you how many of those doors nobody answered. But for those like me, we trust on doing what is right and follow the commandments. That is where our direction comes from. My wife, who isn't particularly skilled at receiving spiritual promptings either, is nonetheless very obedient. Much more so than I ever was. She is my spiritual strength for that gift that she has. And I say gift because that is what I believe it to be. Understanding those promptings is a talent, a skill that takes practice. Some are better at it than others. It is not my particular talent, but I do have other things that I am very good at. For me, I focus on those things about me to gain spiritual strength. As for my weaknesses, I have patience with myself (and that includes the weaknesses of my wife as well). But be patient. Look for someone who is strong where you are weak. I think that those are the best relationships. The ones who keep each other moving forward in this crazy world.

Word, I don't think that the subtle hinting that some women do are playing games; they just don't know how or are afraid to be direct. And this Venus vs Mars is just silliness. People are people, we all have the same hopes and wishes; everyone just has a different way of doing it. It won't hurt you to pay attention - if you can't do it now, you'll have a terrible time when you're married. M. Word!! (Referring to the "I agree" kind. Not to be confused with WordFLOOD, which I did at first )

The difference is semantic, wiley. First you say yes there were minor changes to the temple endowments, which is exactly what I said word for word, i.e. "Aphrodite, the temple ceremony has been changing since Joseph Smith first received revelations on it." We no longer have the lecture at the veil. Does that change the blessings and purpose of the endowment? Of course not. My point was that words can change, the order of when we do things can change, the video can change, but no, the reason we have the endowment will not change (e.g. to receive light and power from on high). That's what I meant when I said that everything else is negotiable. Of course, the "eternal covenant" of Judaism changed with the coming of Jesus, i.e. Israel no longer had to go to Jerusalem twice a year, no longer had to observe the feast days, nor offer animal sacrifice, nor wear phylacteries, etc... Of course, this change was prophesied of, and we know of no other dramatic change of that nature coming up in our day. Still, if it did, it wouldn't shake my faith. I don't worship the ordinances or the wording of the ordinances. I worship God in any way He instructs me to. :) Precisely. Ok. Then I change my mind. I am in agreement with C_K.

Hey Aphrodite, Is there a SMILEY for a big "OOPS". This one will do. My apologize for causing this turmoil. I should have been more careful. I believe the person who quoted JS as saying temple ordinances could not be changed was from Skeptic. This is what he said: JS is talking about ordinances which includes not only the temple ordinances, but such things like baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, sacrament, etc. He was not referring specifically to the temple. I should note that Skeptic has become a friend of mine. That is not to say that I agree with many of the things he says. But he supported me during icy times with the group, and we have had good discussions. He has even taught me a thing or two, both about church history (specifically when related to BY) and how to be a good "Christian". He really is a good guy. I should also mention his wife is an active member of the church who loves him dearly. Actually I don't agree with most of the comments made there. But I go there to help me better understand how I should be towards those who have left the church. This is most significant to me in how I treat members of my family. That is not to say that I don't love them, but I have come to understand that maybe I don't treat them with the same amount to respect I should. It is a lesson I need to learn. Many there are good people. But they do like to vent their fustrations and angers. I would NOT consider them anti-, even though sometimes the things they say can border the anti- level. They have gained respect from many church groups including and article done in the Deseret News. http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660221881,00.html I would say that much of their frustrations and need for support come because they struggle with family members who are active LDS. This can be very painful as some well know. I would recommend to any who venture there to keep in mind that while they do welcome LDS members to post, there main priority to help people transition from being an LDS member to a happy productive member of society. It is not really a place to go and debate doctrine or make them feel like they are in the wrong. There are many there who would like to build bridges with active LDS members, but there first priority is to help those leaving the church feel safe and provide a support group. For the most part, they are NOT interested in getting people to leave the church. Back to the temple though... I don't know if you are at a point in your life where you are able to go to the temple, but if you are, you can ask all these questions there. I believe each temple has a room that resembles the sacrament room of a church where you can discuss these things freely. And I believe the temple workers would be more than willing to answer questions. You don't even have to go there to do a ceremony. You can go just to talk. Yes, there were minor changes in the temple endowments. These changes occurred in 1990 I believe, but also in the 1920's as well. BUT, none of these changes as far as I know had anything to do with the actual ordinances. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. In this, I have to disagree with C_K. The ordinances themselves have never changed. As a case in point, a big part of the endowment includes a video. This was not always the case. This is a change, but not significant to the ordinance itself. I believe even recently that the initiatory has changed a bit. The ordinance is the same, but I think it was changed as a matter of comfort to the person going through the ordinance. Someone can correct me on any of this if I'm wrong. The real issue is that those who criticize the temple ordinances as such are taking something that isn't relative and making a bigger issue out of what it really is. When you figure out the truth, I think you will have one of those, "Why were they making such a big fuss over this?", kind of moments. But that is just my opinion. But again, sorry for creating the turmoil. I hope you will forgive.

I think Maureen is on the nose here. I know it is a little cliche to say, but it takes a lot of practice for us guys to recognize the hints and signals. And they can be very, very subtle. We many times just have to take a blind leap at something that might or might not be a signal of interest. Of course, you have to be careful, cause you'll look like a creep if you misinterpret that signal. [*SIGH*] I got married in my late 20's and my wife and I debate at times what was going on while we were dating. It's fun to go back and get her inside thoughts as to what she was feeling or thinking during this event or that. Believe me, I have been surprised on many occasion. I had no idea what my wife was trying to do at the time. We laugh about it now. I don't know why she stuck with me through our first dates. She also likes to bring up all the subtle things girls did to get my attention while we were dating. I have no idea what she is talking about half the time. There were girls that she said were interested in me, but I thought they were out of my league, and didn't know I was around except for the occasional pleasant conversation. But my wife said she saw all the "signs". I really don't believe her, except that my wife was also way out of my league. Yet she married me, so maybe she was right. The point...I missed a lot, and I thought I had quite a bit of experience in the dating scene. I think every guy should have a non-romantically involved female friend who is interested in helping us understand what other girls are trying to do. You can call her your "interpretor". Also, it has been my experience that some people can be very open about there intentions and others will not. What they really want, they keep inside until they feel comfortable enough with a partner to be able to share those desires, whether they be life ambitions or just simple interests. This goes for both males and females. I have met a quite a few who I thought prioritized their life one way, but later found out as we became better friends that they really did have deeper priorities. They just weren't ready to share those feelings with me at the beginning. Sometimes, it takes awhile. You know, just from what you have told us, she could have just been trying to impress you. The things she was talking about are the things she trusts telling you. If she feels you can accept those, she might be willing to let you in on some deeper desires/feelings. But it might take some time for those to come out. But I could be wrong too.

Holy!!!!! 2-3 hrs/day. You must be a super mormon. Nope, not super at all, I just have a past that I dont want creeping into my life ever again! Yeah, I understand that. NEVER AGAIN!!!

Holy!!!!! 2-3 hrs/day. You must be a super mormon.

Kortney: Don't know if you have ever been to Utah, BUT... well, I moved here not too long ago, and I only have two words...culture shock. Actually I have many words. I love Utah. I live in Logan which is a beautiful place. Utah all around is a great state. But it does take some getting used to. The culture is definitely different. At least so from the East coast where I am from. I guess you guys are already set in where you are going, but if you happen to be coming to Logan and Utah State, then you are in for a treat. I would also recommend you guys attend a married student ward. There are only 11 stakes in the whole world, most of which, of course, are here in Utah. I think there are only two in Logan. But it is a unique opportunity because everyone is pretty much going through the same trials you are and it is nice to be able to relate to others. Even if you are not yet in school, go anyways if you are planning to be. Just a recommendation. Thanks to those who offered advice for my little girl. She is the center of most of my thoughts lately, besides my wife. I am super excited for her arrival. I wrote that little introduction a while ago. And when I added it here, I didn't really read it again, and forgot how personal it was. I mostly just added it to show why I was at postmormon. It was probably unnecessary as people do seem to be very friendly here. Anyway I am sure raising my daughter will be a wild ride and am looking forward to almost every minute of it. This is really the crux of my question I think. How is that everyone is so friendly here. It was something that I had not expected. Maybe the question can't really be answered, and I'll just have to stick around and learn from other's examples. At least this much I can say, you should be proud of yourselves for being so open and friendly. While I have only posted recently, I have seen other sites and the "great mix" is hard to come by, which is understandable in my opinion. I haven't seen other mormon posting sites, so I don't know if they are as friendly as this one here. I would like to think so, but maybe not. Anyway, I'm happy to be here. What is a MB?

This is just one of BY's famous sayings, this one speaking of Emma. "She was a wonderful woman, and would be more so if she'd start acting like a saint, then acting like a devil" Oh yeah, there definitely was as divide between Emma and BY. And I believe that among other things, polygamy was at the very heart of the divide. That said, BY also had the greatest respects for Emma I believe. It is just BY's personality that when ever he decided to do something, he was fully committed. And sometimes, (well, a lot times) that meant he could be critical of others for not being fully committed, whatever the issue; and he was one who liked to use seemingly harsh words. The issue of polygamy is a perfect example that showed BY's character. He struggled with polygamy more than most, or at least, as it is recorded. But once committed, he never looked back. That is why I wouldn't be surprised if Blessed was right also when (she?) said: I absolutely agree here. Though Joseph did have a strong support system, his brother Hyrum, mother Lucy, not to mention the rest of his family, I don't know how much help they would have been if it weren't for Emma. This may just be my opinion and many may not agree with me, but I think the RLDS church is a wonderful organization and from an LDS perspective, were a necessity to the survival of the LDS church. This is just speculation on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't planned this way by the Father. For me, one of the biggest contributions that the RLDS church accomplished was being able to hold onto important historical and significant property. Something I'm not sure the LDS church would have been able to do. The fact that they are still in "mormon" hands (I am encompassing all LDS groups here, if that is OK) is a great benefit to both groups. I look forward to Emma's posts. I hope to learn a lot. I do believe that Emma Smith is long overdue for recognition by some, if not many, of the saints. I have found these quotes that I find interesting. The first is from mother Lucy. The second is from Emily Partridge Young. I wouldn't at all be surprised if her attitude was shared among the many women who were able to endure polygamy.

I am new to the forum posting concept. My first ever posts were actually at ___________. I have been posting there for a little over a month now. Below was my opening statement, which I add here to show why I went there. It also is a type of introduction as to who I am...sort of. So you can read it if you want or move on to below. So a month latter, I am still posting, but it has not been without it's struggles. Maybe some of you can imagine and active LDS member trying to be friends with a postmormon group. At one point, I had decided to leave, because offenses were being had...but then I came back. The truth is, I had made friends there and have been taught a few lessons on how to be a better Christian. They welcomed me back openly, and after a few more posts, decided I would be good fit as an "LDS Ambassador" of sorts. They even offered to set me apart. This really is nothing special, but I'll admit I'm a little proud of myself. I guess it is most significant, because I am the first LDS member to stick around and make friends...I think. [Wiley is being a little prideful and needs to stop patting himself on the back.] So my questions. When I came here and noticed that there were many non-mormons and even a few postmormons (I think I spotted a few) that post here. Not only do you guys/gals post, but many are some of the long timers. I have to admit that I was surprised to find that here. Especially since my postmormon friends and I stuggled quite a bit to make it all work, and we are still working on it. My questions for reals this time. How do you make it work? What were your intentions when coming here initially? Why have you stuck around? Did you struggle like I struggled when first here? I am really fascinated by this. I don't mean for you to answer each question individually, but I would really like to know your story. I know this is a public forum, not supported by the church and all, but still. Mostly, I would like advice as to how I could be a better poster at the __________ site. I find it fascinating to be there, and like I said, have made friends there. Edited by Strawberry Fields, we are going to do our best to keep the names of these types of sites off from LDS Talk.

I have been reading the historical threads here on this site. I have been running various searches, but have been unable to find any threads that honor the women of our history. They may be there, but couldn't find them. In any case, it is good to do it again. I have been studying up on church history as of late and have gained a great impression of the many struggles women endured. We talk a lot of all the great things the men have done, and yes, it was hard. But I dare say that the women struggled so much the more. Emma Smith (the poster) indicated that Emma Smith (the wife) was a great hero. I have to admit that she is also a hero of mine, and it always bothers me when people of the church talk about her as if she just couldn't make it, since her and BY didn't quite get along. I hope Emma Smith (the poster) will share why Emma Smith (the wife) was such a hero. I would love to hear. This thread also includes the many other great women.... Helen Mar Whitney is another hero of mine. This thread also and ABSOLUTELY includes the women who really struggled with how they were asked to live their lives, even if they ultimately left the church. They were all so very brave. I would like to know everyone's thoughts on these women. If you are unaware of their strength, courage, and endurance, then now is a good time to learn. This is my first thread here. Nice to meet you guys. Hope to stick around.