What's in a name?

Feisty one, thanks for the thoughts, and not being too feisty about standing up for you and others. :-) I contemplate two people, hypothetical or real, that undergo the same traumatic and life-altering experiences. Same duration, same severity, same everything. One comes out of it a stronger tree (Good timber poem), the other one cowering and unwilling to stretch for the light or fight the wind. Why? Clearly, it is not the experience that defines us and our responses! Now, there is real danger is looking to great examples, as we are all too prone to start comparing ourselves, and asking 'why can't I do that', and feed our problem, but there is value too, in seeing what is possible. Elizabeth Smart. I'm under no delusion she doesn't have major issues. But the way she has handled herself publicly is the antithesis of locked doors in front of her, and only darkness behind, trapping her in the middle, unable to move. Viktor Frankl - concentration camp survivor. Man's Search for Meaning. An amazing example of how we are the only ones responsible for our responses, not the conditions that have befallen us. What makes one soul grow into good timber, and another soul remain stunted? I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps the nature of our spirit has much to do with it, and our inherent meekness or stubbornness. But, as hard as it may be to hear, I do honestly believe, from my own experiences, that a huge factor is not understanding our own part in trapping ourselves into mental anguish. I too turned to isolation, being an island unto myself, out of the reach of emotional daggers of others, and certainly not connected enough to be rejected by anyone. I didn't turn to food, but to other forms of maladaptive behaviors in efforts to self-soothe. Those of us raised in homes where abuse occurred, or was allowed to occur, were also not taught how our thoughts can be controlled, our responses can be chosen so that we act, not simply react, and that we are the ultimate determinate of our mental destiny. It took me a looong time to crack open the door to that understanding, and I've got a long way to go in implementing the understanding that has come to me. But with the light, I can see that it was me, not my circumstances, that determined where I was and what I was doing. The hardest part is accepting we may be partly at fault, and being ok with that. It is both the first step to understanding, and simultaneously the first step of change (the not being down on ourselves, but being accepting and even compassionate despite acknowledging our part).

Now Eowyn . . . my parental guidance to my kids is far more explicit than anyone has brought up on this topic so far. Who's PG rating are we using? I have this little analogy that has bounced around in my head for a decade or so that helps me frame, and express, the mental anguish I go though at times. Perhaps it's silly to others, but it is meaningful to me. You know how when you play in the snow without gloves (or sometimes even with gloves that get wet), when your fingers start to get cold and they hurt? But after a while, your fingers become numb, and you can tolerate making and throwing a couple more snowballs with little breaks between to keep the frostbite at bay. But then . . . when you start to warm your hands back up . . . owww! It hurts to thaw out! You are ok being warm, and you are sort of ok when numb, but that transition period from one state to the other is a bugger. That's what the mental anguish is like to go from warm and well, to being cold and alone. There is a period of time there when the pain is almost unbearable. But finally it becomes numb. Thankfully, I've become pretty much numb lately. I don't look forward to trying to rewarm. That hurts too. I'd rather remain numb the rest of my life, thank you, and not go through the freeze/thaw cycle any more. I've been through it too many times, and have no interest in more of the same pain. The exercise of posting here and receiving feedback has been a fruitful one. I'm not sure I've actually learned anything new, but I do believe I understand some things on deeper levels, and with greater clarity. Having become numb, I'm also not so myopically focused on the tree trunk right in front of me, but can step to the side and see more of the forest. My internal responses to some posts were an unexpected surprise to me. I used to participate in forums. I used to have friends online and offline. I used to be recognized as a leader in one of my hobbies. All of that changed about 4.5 years ago, shortly after remarrying. I was cut off from those sources that used to fill my bucket, at least some. I thought I was ok, self-sufficient enough, and honestly am not one that needs much if any recognition. But, with those sources of fulfillment forcefully cut off, and then the cessation of the primary way I felt accepted and loved in marriage, my bucket ran dry. It had been dry for some time now. It took a few drops of compassion and caring from posters to wet the bucket bottom for me to clearly see how parched and dry it was. I'm in the process of making sure to put my oxygen mask back on before continuing to help others get theirs on. Ladies, it isn't the act itself, or the pleasure derived that is nearly so important to the stereotypical man than it is about feeling loved. It's just that many men (esp worldly men) don't comprehend it is all rooted in attempts to find meaning and love. I'm sure those versed in reading have heard complaints of unwillingness, or begrudged giving making it bad. The "just lie there" or "get it over with" dilemma. For this man, it is the act of giving herself to me, willingly, wanting to give to me (even if not wanting the act) that tells me in no uncertain terms that I and my feelings are important to her. That I am wanted, valued, and she cares about my happiness. The withdrawal of that love (or worse - demeaning because of the desire to feel love that way), combined with physical drives, can really cause extreme mental anguish. Just like you want (need) your SO to give compliments and show appreciation out of genuine concern and love for you, he wants (needs) you to give yourself to him. You don't have to want it. You don't have to pretend anything. You simply have to be totally sincere that you want him happy and feeling loved. If you don't fill his bucket that way, don't be too surprised when he tries finding surrogate feelings of worth through power, control, or other ways the typically emotionally unaware male flails about to find some feeling of value.

Abuse is no excuse. It absolutely isn't. And I feel qualified to say that, having been sexually abused myself for several years when young, and living with and overcoming the ramifications of that. The implicatIons still color some of my personality traits (such as being reluctant to unilaterally seek my gratification, even if spouse is encouraging it - that is a turn off when for many it is fine). As heinous as such abuse is, it is the individual that chooses what to do with it. Are they going to make lemmonaid,or continue to suck on sour lemons? I know that if I were more emotionally mature two decades ago when the abuse really hit me (about 12 years after it ceased), I could have moved on much faster, healed better, etc. But I'm certainly no Elizabeth Smart. Nor was I entirely willing to wallow in self pity and make excuses either (although I certainly did from time to time!). I absolutely don't intend to criticize her for not moving on yet. We all have our own paths and capabilities, And no one is wrong or better. It just is what it is, and progress is not a matter of comparison to others, only to our former self. What matters is for you to understand who she is, and what her capabilities are, and if that is ok to you. Will you really have endless patience if you marry and she decides to wallow in self pity long term? Does her difficulty in progressing indicate an overall incapability to cope? Or was the abuse particularly heinous and the amount of progress so far indicates she can handle any thing life can dish up? I'm guessing based on your post, and the anxious/avoidint attachment (breakup - makeup, breakup - makeup, repeat), she is more of the type (currently) to wallow and make excuses, and not tackle the issue internally where it really resides. That is concerning for success in marriage, where challenges are sure to arise.

I'm usually more of a compassionate type of poster. But your short description raises a LOT of alarms in me. Given my life experience of one divorce, and a potentially second in the works, I would highly advise moving on, despite what feelings you have for her. Your caring and concern is great, but don't let it become your downfall in selecting a help-meet. It hurts like nothing else, but if I can survive a divorce, you can survive a breakup. Marriage, even to a whole and healthy person is a refiner's fire itself because of the challenges and opportunities for development. Marriage to a person with emotional/mental issues is a crucible you might not emotionally/spiritually survive. There is a book you really need to read/listen to. Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment I think you will recognize her attachment style quickly in there. You will also understand your attachment style. Some attachment styles result in decent relationships, others are a complete disaster that exacerbate each other and make both partners anxious and needy. It is never a bad idea to date around and get to know lots of people before settling down with one person. Even if you end up finding this gal is the one for you, you will have 1) life experience, and 2) a secure knowledge that she is the one (you won't be wondering later if you could have found a better friend, supporter, and companion). Don't wait. Go forth and date!

Hello exmisionero92. Welcome to the world of the use of the nuclear option as a means of expression and/or manipulation. Fun isn’t it? Not! As the recipient of talk of divorce, both that which is followed through on, and when it is used as a manipulative tool, my opinion is that discussing it in the way you have portrayed is never appropriate or justified. But the reasons for its use can be understood. From my observations of myself and others, reading many many relationship and self-help books, under the umbrella of understanding that pretty much every soul here on earth is good and faithful (kept first estate), I conclude that the majority of bad behavior from all of us is driven by what we lack. From this basis, I conclude that both your transgressions, and hers, are attempts to fill voids in your needs. Albeit, we go about it wrong, and cause damage to ourselves and others in doing so. Almost always, it is driven by a lack of feeling loved, whether real, or a construct of our own deficits in feelings of self-worth. And, not having been taught appropriate ways to ask for and obtain the love we need, we flail about trying whatever the world offers us, or that we have seen modeled for us (which sadly, is often more rooted in bad behavior than functional behavior). Rather than writing out more thoughts here, there is a much richer medium for you to understand the likely reasons she has played the divorce card. It is the book Real Love in Marriage. Its available on audible, so you can listen to it on your commute, or while exercising, etc. No need to slow down or eliminate other needful activities. I highly suggest it. Given what little has been written, I think you both need it. Whether it is effective for you or not, it will provide a whole new way to view why she plays the divorce card in your relations. Best of luck to you.

Thank you for the reminder, and the generous thoughts. I really have grown rather impatient. Esp as of late. Started to think that a couple years of asking and waiting was "more than enough". Didn't do that consciously, but obviously I have done so. Not a constructive thought process, as you eloquently illustrated.

I’m sorry Anatess, but a lot of that is a bit too ethereal for me to grasp. I’m highly metaphorical in my thoughts, but much of what you wrote escapes me. Not sure why I’m missing it so badly. Perhaps I'm resistant to how some reads more like a romance novel than reality. I am not without understanding of the points you make. I am without understanding how to make that an integral part of who I am, and not have to consciously choose to turn the other cheek and respond in love in each challenge I face. I don’t think you appreciate the difficulty of the circumstances I find myself in. I don’t love the way Christ loved, as I’m nothing like Him. That’s a given that goes without having to state it. I wouldn’t be in this melt-down had I a tiny fraction of His internal sense of well-being that allowed me to be secure and giving despite any external factors, or lack thereof. As a far, FAR weaker spirit, I still seek my own desires of love and belonging. Do you, or do you not, have experience in how to develop the capability to sustain unilateral giving in the face of famine and abuse? You evidently presume the love and concern I give to my wife is solely out of expectation of return. That is false. You are speaking of Charity, even though the word is not used. I will not contend that I am “nothing” in that I have not true charity. It’s a goal, and something I have thought of much. When single, I did seek that gift. And I have wondered if that is part of why I find myself in the circumstances I do – akin to the joke about praying for patience. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I have been unable to conclude that charity is something that one develops or chooses. I see that we can develop similar characteristics, emulate the behaviors, but it remains my conclusion that true charity is truly a gift as Moroni describes. It is not from within ourselves, it is bestowed upon us. Now, what I don’t understand, and have not found reading material on, is whether the bestowal of the gift is via a set of circumstances, and line upon line, or if it is more of a mighty change of heart.

Beefche . . . somehow you have been able to see past all of the emotional drivel and understand the core matters I was seeking help on. Not sure how you did that, but for it I thank you. Even if you have no answers beyond what has been offered, feeling understood by someone, anyone, has meant the world to me this day. Thank you.

I am so glad you don't understand. I'm not being facetious. I'm honestly happy for you. I do wonder if you have done much reading on human sexuality to be making comments like that though? "Normal" is difficult to define, even for the researchers and experts. "Normal" spans an extremely wide variety of circumstances from nearly asexual to extremely high drives. I do wonder if you have contemplated deeply the temporal conditions that have been created for us (divinely so). Would you call cerebral palsy abnormal? Breast cancer abnormal? Depression, ADHD, schizophrenia, diabetes, cancer, the common cold, and all else "abnormal"? How about being born into a broken home that teaches a life of crime? Is that normal or abnormal? Is there really any such thing as normal or abnormal? I have a testimony that there is no such thing as "abnormal" when it comes to the customized circumstances that each soul faces. This life is for growth and development, not facing a standardized set of parameters according to someones preferences. Who are you to judge me as abnormal and sinful to have been blessed with a particular challenge that is different than your sins? And judge me of that when I'm trying desperately to choose the right, fight off temptations, and turn to the Lord and my brothers/sisters for guidance? Strange.

My apologies for yesterday's posts. I was (clearly) having a bit of a melt down, and emotionally vomited all over my computer screen. I'm a little bit back on my feet now with some sleep. Can I please attempt to re-summarize this way: I'm facing some pretty difficult circumstances for an extended period of time now in a second marriage (almost 5 years of extremely difficult marriage). I'm not prone to hyperbole, please accept these are pretty extreme circumstances without demanding I run down a laundry list of anyone's faults. I've learned to not take rejection personally. I've made huge progress in receiving contemptuous criticism without putting up defenses, shutting down, or otherwise retaliating. Truly turning the other cheek, and giving hugs of reassurance in response. I have progressed greatly (relative to where I was previously) in loving openly and unconditionally. I am working on being more consistent with that (and will touch upon that aspect further when I have a chance to respond to anatess). As much as I have progressed, or see where I need to improve in many areas, there is one area that eludes me, and remains a horrible thorn in my side without hope of seeing the path to relieving it. I cannot see what Heavenly Father wants me to learn from this circumstance other than to endure through something that is more emotionally painful than loosing my mother, more gut wrenching than being shot by a gun, or any other circumstance I've experienced in life. ( In short (ha! as if I'm ever short in descriptions!!), I have been endowed with a high sex drive. I didn't choose this. I don't want it. I want to be free of it. I trust, as President Kimball stated, this is a divinely instituted magnetism, albeit it seems to be stronger in me than many. I have fasted and begged for change of my drive. It does cause temptation that is so powerful at times, I do feel "insane". "insane" in that they are NOT thoughts I want, but I feel powerless to prevent their intrusion. I can push them out, change the channel, but I feel powerless to prevent their resurrection. If you can't understand that, GREAT! I am soooo happy for you that you don't have to deal with it!! It sucks, big time. Anyway, I digress . . . this isn't as short as I intended. I knew myself in this regard, and the difficulties of my prior marriage. I attempted to be very careful to select compatibility in this one factor, among all the others. No, intimacy fulfillment was not my reason for remarrying, nor was it the primary factor in determine who to marry. But I was careful to try to avoid incompatibility and the difficulties I know arise from that. Despite my pleadings to Heavenly Father for guidance in marriage choices (and being directed to enter into this relationship), despite my most careful attempts to ensure compatibility, despite my pleadings to Heavenly Father to have my desire reduced, I find myself in the very situation I so desperately wanted to avoid. I can only conclude I am in this situation for a purpose. But as much as I've tried to ponder why I'm in this set of circumstances, and taken my ideas to God to ask "is this what I am to learn?", I have received no guidance. I'm at a loss. I'm reaching out for insight/ideas/inspiration as to why I might be in the very situation that I sought to avoid, that is so painful to me, and is "generally" the first cause of divorce among LDS (historically). I hurt. I hurt badly. I'm asking for help to figure out what I may need to learn, and how to learn it, that perhaps I don't have to linger in the circumstances longer than necessary.

Weak sauce or not, your thoughts are appreciated Vort. Hi blunt! How are you? I’m long-winded and rambling. Sorry about that. Well, generally so. The answer to those questions would take way more than even I’m willing to type out. First, I concluded it was right as we got along so well, had similar spiritual and family goals, etc. All the typical college sweethearts stuff. Not for her looks, although I was attracted to her, not for money, fame, intimacy, or anything in particular. We were friends, dated, and it fit. And Heavenly Father said it was right. Kinda hard for me to rationalize in post-mortem analysis of flawed motivations when HF affirmed the choice to me. Second, I wish it were possible to convey what it is like to court someone that expresses symptoms of having BPD. It’s readily described on the net, so I won’t try. As I said to Anatess, I wasn’t looking for any problem to be solved. Just an innate desire to be wed on two people’s part, seeing great signs of compatibility in ALL areas of life, and, as Holland says, holding hands and jumping in with both feet hoping for the best. Having a second chance to make right, I sought out all the advice and wisdom I could, from books, family, friends, bishop, etc. I have no delusions that I was perfect and whole. But I know I was a whole lot better of a person from my refiner’s fire than I had ever been in life. I’ve asked myself many times if my motivations and desires were flawed, or I missed warning signs. I have a hard time concluding I should have been more skeptical and not trusted so much. Honestly, I didn’t have the life experience to see the deception, let alone even begin to comprehend it. But analyzing that further doesn’t really do much to change the here and now, does it? Of course I’ve thought of the second question many times over. Pondered it much. Bluntly asked it with a real intent to understand. I get I was, at times, quite difficult in the first marriage. I’m sensing people are not used to my level of being forthright about my flaws though, and are likely to over-judge that. It is what it is. I’m generally glad to take my part, own up to it as best I can, and try not be critical of the other side. No abuse. No cheating. No porn. Squeaky clean faithfulness. As attentive and loving as I knew how to be, or was capable of. Bringing flowers, courting, trying to resolve differences, very respectfully and considerate. But a jerk when emotionally hurt. And withdrawn when attacked. We had the discussions about why. There was talk of the need for filling her emotional needs first, etc, etc, etc. And I’d do that in all sincerity. And almost nothing in return or consideration of my emotional desires. She’s a good person. I don’t want to cast her in a bad light. But not everyone wants physical intimacy. And some people have grown up with guilt and shame that clouds their perspective long after intimacy is right and good. I’m well aware of the adage that good relations begins in the kitchen (or laundry room, etc). There is some truth to that of course. But there is no way to slice cheese so thin that it doesn’t have two sides. Happy wife, happy life is a sexist fallacy. In reality, it should be: happy spouse, happy house. BOTH spouses need to look out for, and go out of their way to meet the emotional needs of the other. I’m no stellar romantic that does great at courting. But when you have an honest discussion with your wife about why she doesn’t want to be intimate, and you come up with a plan together to address her emotional needs, and you follow that plan for months without reciprocation. . . well, I simply wasn’t that strong or great back then. Not sure I am now either, but I’m much further along than before. With the second, I have asked repeatedly. At first it was nothing that I had done, and there was no explanation why. Over time, hormones were suspected, but tests indicate no issues. Hormones are certainly a part, but they are not clinically out of whack despite the physical changes indicating something has changed. As I’ve tried to discuss (at times, failing miserably and inquiring out of bitterness and hurt, and at times in all sincere loving, looking for mutual solutions) it further over time, it has not gone well. It’s because of that time I did x two years ago, I was an a this other time, you failed to give me what I wanted there, and a whole litany of all the ways I’m a flawed human that no one would ever want to be in bed with. I don’t ask any longer, as it has not gone well for a long time, no matter how kindly I approach the subject. I understand why she does this. It’s defensiveness to ward off feelings of inadequacy. Still, it’s not anything I dare venture into any longer. I have a thousand more thoughts, but I’m sure I’ve written too much already.

MrShorty. It has been about 6 or so years since I read Schnarch’s books. I hope they haven’t been thrown away on me. A refresh is a good idea. Thank you. Thank you Estradling for the thoughts. I would never move forward with divorce without confirmation first. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t cross my mind at times though! Your thoughts are things I have contemplated much, and welcome reminders as I find myself looking at ‘tree trunks rather than the entire forest’. Beefche, it sounds like you are in a pretty difficult spot as well. My heart truly goes out to you. The empathy expressed says a lot about the depth of the challenges you face. While it warms my soul to feel understood via cryptic internet messages, it saddens me as well to contemplate others know similar uncertainty and pain. From time to time I too have leaned on and remembered the answers to prayer I received when making choices related to entering this relationship. However . . . I did the same with my former marriage. I did receive answers, and it didn’t work out despite giving what were truly my best efforts. I no longer presume I can understand the big picture, just because Heavenly Father allowed me a blessing to see the next step at a former point it time. I have found it all too easy in my life, because of the infrequency of clear guidance I receive, and my desperation at times to have guidance, to infer far more than might have been intended in relation to past answers. His ways are not our ways, and it is foolish to use our logic to deduce understanding. Hence my greater focus now on guidance for right this moment. But alas, nothing I can hear. Sometimes, I have to simply focus keenly on being so good, that when it does fall apart, you are confident they will look back with fondness how you treated them, despite the circumstances. All these things shall give thee experience and be for thy good. Hard to remember at the moment, but hearing of another’s issues brings me around to proper perspective. Thanks. Anatess . . . thank you for a great post. Sure, when I reentered the world of dating, I was looking for reciprocal advantages. Naturally so, since we are made incomplete alone. But it was definitely not in order to “complete” me, or fill in anything that I needed, aside from D&C 131. Perhaps that sounds more callous than intended. What I’m trying to say is that I did not marry looking for love to fill any other emotional or physical need. I thought then, and still think in retrospect, that I was pursuing a relationship for all the right reasons, and reasonably whole and well in doing so (I have no delusions of grandeur by any means – still flawed, but pretty reasonably well – ok enough to be on my own long-term). I was not marrying my current wife for what she could give me. My focus on intimacy compatibility was to attempt to avoid what I found to be a source of conflict previously, not to fill a need. I read, believe, and understood firsthand the following: “if you study the divorces, as we have had to do in these past years, you will find there are one, two, three, four reasons. Generally sex is the first. They did not get along sexually. They may not say that in court. They may not even tell that to their attorneys, but that is the reason.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, p. 312.) My focus was in avoiding that particular mistake a second time. And I guess that’s where I find myself frustrated with Heavenly Father. Mad even sometimes. Not that I don’t trust, but because I don’t understand. This is precisely what I so desperately wanted to avoid! And was so careful to avoid. I wasn’t looking to be fulfilled! Just to avoid that which degrades relationships. There is no right amount, no wrong amount. What matters is compatibility. I trust fully, unquestionably, that my capabilities, challenges, everything is designed for my best good in learning in this life. He matched my spirit with this body, that has a biological/divinely created drive that is undeniable when in the presence of a spouse. He can change that. In an instant. But He has chosen not to, despite my pleadings. And, relying on His guidance in relationship choice, I find myself in a relationship that hits upon my core sensitivities (as to be expected). I’ve made great strides on many, but this one eludes me. And I can’t see what I have to learn other than to bear what is, at times, nearly intolerable! I don’t want to be setting off warning buzzers in anyone’s mind, as I’m perfectly well and safe, but I can imagine some pretty horrific and life ending events I’d rather be going through than the torment I face from time to time. I’ve been shot by a gun before, had broken bones, lost my mother, etc. I’d gladly choose anything I’ve experienced instead of this. I simply don’t understand why. I’m like a 2 year old incapable of comprehending why they can’t have icecream for dinner, and having a bit of a melt-down because of it. I know all trials will be for my good, but I hurt so much, and have so little vision regarding this situation, I can’t find peace. Hence now my expanded search to brainstorm what I'm yet lacking. I am not perfect in showing love. But I am failing to grasp how that is an answer to dealing with intense ambivalence I face. In fact, my love and consideration of my spouse is part of the problem! I most certainly don't demand intimacy. Far from it! No cajoling or demands. Absolute consideration of her first. Yet, I am driven to seek it. I won't seek my own interests first, as I know it is not wanted on the other side. I'm to darn considerate of other's desires at times! Honestly, I think that if I were less loving and trying to consider her wants, I probably would be a bit more forceful, and not be so torn apart inside. Yes, I have contemplated that much, and prayed about it, wondering if that is the core of the problem. I'm lost. I don't see how more real and charitable love will dissipate the anguish. I have sacrificed so much Anatess in trying to be loving and fulfilling to everyone around me, even when I am not only receiving no inputs myself, but am under attack and rejection as well. It’s taken a toll, and from time to time, I have to take a breather as I’m just not capable. I took up running about a year ago. I don’t get upset with myself at having to stop and walk from time to time. And some days are worse than others. Learning to love and give under duress is a lot like that to me as capabilities build. Building that endurance takes time, pushing oneself, and from time to time, you just don’t have it in you to push, and you back off for a bit and walk. I try not to get upset about it, but just do the best I can, and start running when I can. Yes, I've had a bit of a meltdown from a particularly bad spell. Please, if you have experience in sustaining that unrequited love long-term, and have learned the secret lessons I need to learn, please share how to do it. I’m at a loss, and that’s why I reached the point of desperation to reach out here.

I've been having a pretty bad week. Forgive me for my shortness. It certainly wasn't intended, but it was there. That post does not show up for me. Is it not being approved for one reason or another? Your quote seems a bit out of place without it showing up in the thread.

Texygirl: I read the first two pages, but not the rest. Please forgive me if my $0.02 has already been contributed. Some thoughts that popped into my mind to add to what was posted: 1) You cannot change anyone but yourself. You simply cannot change your husband. Only he can do that. And you can only help if he wants you to help. All too often, we hold onto expectations of our spouses, and onto an expectation that we can have an input into their changing. The sooner we learn to let go of any expectations that we can alter anything about our spouse, the sooner we will stop creating misery for ourselves. 2) While you can help your husband see the need to change, and find motivation to change, from what I read in the OP and first couple follow-ups, you will not be able to do so from your current paradigm. You are acting out of fear and hurt. To be effective in helping a spouse, you a) need to be motivated by love for them, and b) they need to be able to see/feel that is the reason for your actions. Your hurt is understandable. I'm not commenting on the validity of your reactions. I'm only commenting on what motivates you to talk to him about it, and what is the only way it will be effective. You know what he is doing is wrong. Can you see him and his actions as our Father see's him, with love and concern, and a desire to help him achieve the improvements he needs? Not in order to stop your pain, but truly out of concern for what is best for him? Make sure he feels and understands that first. 3) There is an analogy in a book called Real Love in Marriage that perhaps would be of help to you in re framing your perspective on his behaviors, and your hurt caused by it. Imagine you are laying pool-side on a warm sunny summer day. You hear someone splashing in the pool, and feel a few cold drops of water hit your hot skin occasionally. The splashing intensifies, and you find yourself getting pelted with more and larger drops of shockingly-cold-to-hot-skin water. Pretty soon, you are getting annoyed by all this noise and cold water interrupting what was previously a nice peaceful and relaxing sunning. Eventually you decide to get up to tell this jerk to quit being so inconsiderate and go somewhere else to play so roughly in the water. The nerve of some people, right? Now, when you get up high enough to see over the edge of the pool into the water, you notice a person is drowning, and desperately flailing about to reach the side and keep from going under! In such a situation, how long did it take for your feelings of annoyance/anger to go away? In an instant, of course. Your husband is drowning in some way, and as truly bad as his behaviors may be, they are not much more than an attempt to keep from drowning in emotional misery. Perhaps to seek surrogate feelings of love/acceptance. The particulars don't matter as much as it matters for you to re-frame your understanding of his behavior. He isn't flailing about in an attempt to splash you will salacious material, and cause you hurt. No, his behaviors are about him and his flaws/weaknesses/agancy than it is about you! It is NOT about you! When people attack or do hurtful things, it is always about them, not you. Healthy people don't attack, or flail around so wildly in the pool as to splash us with unwanted water. 4) As my son on his mission said with wisdom beyond his years: "I've never met a person that couldn't use more love". It may seem counter-intuitive at times, but acceptance of your husband as he really is, likely will have more impact on him than any amount of criticism, cajoling, demands, or other forms of manipulation. I am convinced, when most people feel truly loved, whether by a spouse, God, etc, they find themselves whole enough to be strong and choose the right. In my readings, my observance of myself and others, I see that many of our Whether your H needs to change or not, whether you two will eventually divorce or not, no matter what the circumstances, it is never a bad choice to give love to another that is struggling. Can you reframe your understanding of his misbehavior as being about him, develop compassion and bring up feelings of love for him despite his choices, and show him that love? 5) One of the allures of porn, even though it is images, is the idea that a person is choosing to show titillating images to the observer. It's a fallacy of course, but that is how it often feels (unconsciously) to a male observer. Do you ever initiate? Does he feel you freely and willingly give him the physical attention he craves? Now, I want to be very careful and be sure to not insinuate in any way shape or form that his choices are your fault. NOT at all! His choices about him are his problem, and about him, despite whatever difficulties may be going on. He doesn't find you stimulating when pregnant? That is NOT about you - it is about him and his flaws. But, I make the above comment as a way for you to experiment how he may be lacking in feeling loved, and to see if you can make a difference in how he feels. 6) I just ventured onto page 3, reading only your posts. Just like letting down our guards on moving ratings, letting the world in, and finding ourselves far deeper than expected, not maintaining appropriate boundaries outside of marriage will eventually lead to very bad situations. We don't talk with old flames on FB. We don't carpool with members of the opposite sex alone. Not if we want to stay faithful. Not because those actions will result in cheating, but because those actions represent letting down our shields protecting us from wandering to far. Sure, the carpool may have been innocent. The looking may have been nothing more than looking. But he clearly has let his guard down. Nothing good comes of that. Look where the justifications relating to movie/show ratings has led.

Thanks for taking the time to read that long post, and give it some consideration. Has anyone here tried having a marriage with a borderline-personality individual? The diagnosis is not official, but more aspects fit to a T than do not. Walk a mile in my shoes, please, and then you are free to assume I'm taking the easy-out. I'm desperately attempting to hang on what is truly a very difficult situation. Far more difficult than can be conveyed, and something I intentionally avoided in my post. I am well aware the only person I can change is me, and I have no expectations to change in my wife what are unquestionably marriage-killing behaviors. But focusing on her bad behaviors will do nothing, and never improves a relationship. I can't change her, you can't change her, and I don't believe you will likely be able to tell me something I haven't read a couple times in one of the many marriage and self-help books, or heard from counselors before as it relates to marital advice. All I can do is focus on how I can become more charitable, less needy of love, validation, or support, or whatever unknown-to-me-yet lesson it is that HF wants me to glean from this situation. Focusing on the faults of a spouse never improves ones mood or situation. So I attempted to avoid that, and focus on my own personal struggles with the situations. The last therapist I worked with flat out asked me: "how long are you going to put up with this abuse?". I stopped seeing him as I did not want to have thoughts of giving up introduced further. Martial counseling has been attempted twice. Abysmal failures. I'm the first and strongest advocate of professional help. I turned now to lds.net for advanced help, not facile suggestions of rudimentary first steps. I guess I was wrong in thinking I conveyed that need in the OP, but clearly fell short of that goal. I don't mean to sound conceited in any way, as that is not reflective of my attitude, but I've been around the block a few times. I'm not inexperienced. I'm not a bad spouse. No abuse, no cheating, very giving, supportive and accepting, very loving. At times I was not so in my first marriage, for a multitude of reasons, none of which are justification, they simply constituted many of the things I had yet to overcome, or coping mechanisms I had not yet identified as such (primarily anger as a defensive mechanism to avoid emotional hurts). Perhaps I was a bit too honest and open in my OP that I'm a flawed person as well, causing judgement, and I should have put on a false persona of 'i'm the perfect husband' to get more appropriate responses? Or I wasn't to the point enough about what I was seeking? Oh how I wish my marital challenges were as simple as most of what I read on here, and have seen on here for almost a decade of reading lds.net now. Please accept that I don't want to focus on what my spouse does wrong, even if I did try to touch upon it a little to give background regarding my struggles. Please accept this is truly a difficult situation. I'm not prone to hyperbole. The presence of children has no bearing on the question at hand. There is no expectation that life should be easy - rather I'm embracing what is far more difficult circumstances than can be conveyed, and asking "what is it Lord that you want me to learn from this". I'll rephrase what perhaps I should have put in an introductory paragraph: I'm finding myself in a rather difficult set of circumstances in my second marriage. I have overcome many of my greatest weaknesses though the trials I have been blessed with. I now can tolerate extreme criticism, personal attacks, and yelling, and often not respond in any manner other than loving acceptance, knowing my spouse is misbehaving because she is hurting inside. I can now tolerate rejection from spouse, step children, and others in ways that I never thought any individual could. And more. But try as I might, no amount of self-improvement focus has removed a significant thorn in my side born of a difficult marriage. And that thorn has to do with lack of physical affection. I'm desperately torn between a divinely created desire (my first question for HF will be why it had to be this strong), and my sensitive personality to consider my wife's desires ahead of my own. I have tried to seek out what it is I am to learn from this trial, even if I am to never overcome it. I'm drawing blanks. I cannot gain adequate perspective, and to date, my prayers have not been answered regarding what I am to learn or how I am to grow. Can you please help me brainstorm what deep lessons I might need to take before the Lord and ask if that is what I am to learn? I'm at a loss right now, and need help thinking outside the box. I know there is someone out there that has true empathy for the situation borne of experience, that could offer useful advice, or someone that is divinely inspired to pass an answer along to me. I alluded to my spouses assurance to me pre-marriage when she said "I'm more like a man in that regard" as it sets the stage for the challenge I face. I knew I did not do well in a marriage with disparate desires. Tried that for almost 15 years, and that aspect was miserable. I knew of Spencer W. Kimball's quote that while many reasons are given for divorce, the most common core reason underlying it all is 'they did not get along sexually'. I was very careful to try to avoid a similar circumstance the second time around, and give us the best shot at a successful relationship. Plain and simple, I was deceived. I was lied to. Not out of a desire to be dishonest, but as I tried to convey in the OP, it was out of weakness, and desperation to be accepted. As I said, I have a lot of compassion, even empathy for what drove her to lie, and cannot condemn her for it, even though it hurts badly. It was not long into the marriage (two months?) that I could clearly see that the desire verbally expressed pre-marriage, and the desire post-marriage was strongly founded in seeking acceptance, and to be desired. It was not an innate desire for physical intimacy as I was assured it was. And now that acceptance has been achieved, there is virtually no desire at all. So, again, I find myself in a place where I am continually "starving", and try as I might, unable to find relief in any fashion. I would be glad to live a life of celibacy again, but that is not practical when continuing to be married and continuing to have physical touch or other daily stimulating reminders. Been there done that, and being single and completely celibate and chaste is far easier, at least for me. Geesh. I gotta find a way to be more concise. Sorry, but I'll post it anyway, as it helps me flesh out some of my thoughts, and perhaps will provide the insight that I know someone experienced or inspired can provide.

I’m struggling, and looking to the readers here for brainstorming. I can’t see the forest as I’m in the middle, and only see tree trunks anymore. I’m contemplating divorce. 1) I see little hope of the situation improving. 2) I’m losing my spirituality, and struggle to hold on in the face of this type of adversity. The long story: I was married almost 15 years before my ex-wife left me. Our marriage wasn’t good. But neither was it bad. She decided she didn’t want to work on it any longer, or, in other words, deal with me any longer. Perhaps I’m somewhat blind to my part, but I do see a lot of what was my part. I wasn’t nice in dealing with my emotional issues. I’m not blind to my shortcomings. I’m quite introspective and open/honest with myself. To be single again was a huge relief, even if it was difficult at first to re-enter the world of celibacy. My spirituality rebounded to new post-mission highs. Life was good being single. But of course, I was incomplete in so many ways. I knew I needed to remarry once my ex had our sealing canceled so she could remarry. The physical intimacy aspect of my former marriage was a major source of frustration for me, and thus one of the primary points of contention. As much as I prayed to have my desire lowered, as much as I studied management of expectations, changing perspectives, choosing to be happy, the lack of fulfillment left me miserable. Nearly insane at times. I’ve tried, with counseling as well as many self-help books, to alter my mental constructs surrounding the physical aspects of relationships. I’ve tried lots. Fasted for help. It persisted then, and now. In retrospect, being celibate before ever being married, and post-divorce is far easier than being in a marriage and found wanting. At least it is for me. I recognize that the primary way I feel loved is via physical touch (yes, I’ve read Chapman a couple times), but there is more to it than that. I’ve made huge strides in overcoming very-difficult-to-me challenges to feeling loved, and reframing my mental constructs. For instance, rejection by others, including those within my household, while still not something I look forward to, is not as big of a deal as it used to be. It used to really get to me. But, in choosing my reactions, reframing what had always been a sensitive issue to me since before I can remember, and working with life experiences, I can handle rejection by pretty much anyone, even a spouse, and still show them love and affection, as I know they are just lashing out from their own hurt, and it really has less to do with me than it does with them. However, changes in relation to dependency on intimacy have not come in a similar manner as overcoming other sensitive spots I’ve been given trials related to. Yes, it’s how I feel loved, but it is so much more critical than that. I can get along without overt demonstration of love. Not so much without intimacy when I’m reminded of it daily in the bed next to me. After the divorce, thinking I understood how critical physical compatibility was to my functioning in marriage, that was a key component in selecting a new spouse. I wasn’t shy about having open conversations to determine compatibility after a few dates and the potential of becoming serious. I did remarry, to someone that I had all confidence was compatible in this aspect, along with many others. Now, five years into the marriage, whether it is due to perimenopause, the stresses of unusually difficult circumstances forced upon us, both, or some other factor (i.e. dishonesty about libido prior to marriage), I’m right back where I was in the first marriage. Absolutely miserable. Struggling mightily to not only feel loved, but to function from day to day without going insane, and worse. Struggling to hold onto the iron rod, angry at Heavenly Father that answers to prayers led me into this relationship. When calm, I have compassion for my wife, recognizing the circumstances that may have induced her to exaggerate her desire, and don’t see her as intentionally deceiving, except out of her weakness. But I hurt so much at times, I can’t help but feel extreme disappointment and feeling duped into entering into a condition I knew would be intolerable to me. And I’m starting to crack. Hence the consideration of divorce. When I was single, I promised myself that if I ever reached this point again, being tempted this strongly, I would most certainly divorce. But for some reason, I’m reluctant. I guess I want to do right, even if it is an emotional handcart I have to pull, that I wish would pass from me. I just wonder if I can hold myself together and arrive at any destination without giving up. Nearly 20 years of this misery across two marriages is taking a toll on me. I’ve pondered and prayed to understand why I find myself in this situation. Not a “why me!”, but “what is the purpose of why I find myself in this situation again?” What is it that I am supposed to learn? And perhaps that is where I need help to see the forest I’m in from an external standpoint. I wonder if I’m supposed to learn to completely let go of my desire and reliance on the physical to feel loved. Then I recall how much I’ve pleaded for help to reduce what is either a biological drive, or divinely created desire. I recall how I’ve been willing to sacrifice anything, include the possibility of any intimacy ever again, yet have no relief. I’m left to conclude Heavenly Father wants me to remain in this difficulty for the time being, but why? I’ve asked many times what it is I am to learn from this, what opportunities for growth I’m being given. No answers, no guidance. Am I here because of stupid choices of my own? Perhaps in part, but I would not have married without unmistakable answers to prayers leading me to where I am. Am I to learn to give up intimacy while having it next to me daily, because I’m willing to be celibate when single, and this is just the next step? Did I make a “mistake” in praying for charity while single, and this is the path to breaking my heart enough to be able to rebuild it from scratch, more capable of loving despite what may be done to me, or how deprived of needs I feel? What other potential lessons am I supposed to learn, or characteristics am I to develop from the circumstances I’ve been given? What else can I take to Heavenly Father in asking “is this what I’m supposed to learn”? What think ye? And no, I’m not contemplating divorce over physical intimacy alone. It turns out that all those discussions about compatibility in finances, kids, intimacy, emotional support . . . they all were not founded in reality. Perhaps I could deal with the intimacy if I had an emotional confidant and supporter that didn’t criticize and attack me when I try to express my hurts and disappointments (even when approached in the best way I know how, with love and concern for both of us). Perhaps I wouldn’t care about emotional support or uncontrolled spending if physical intimacy continued as was ‘promised’. It really is a matter of the big picture causing contemplation of divorce. However, none of the non-physical factors drive me physically and mentally crazy, and subject me to remotely similar temptations as the lack of intimacy. Life is a pretty sour deal when it doesn’t give you enough sugar and water with the lemons to make decent lemonade.