Takawi
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Posts posted by Takawi
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@letmeoff : because you aren't as fast a rower as I expected, I must leave the boat anyway, we're going on vacation! See you when we're back. TTYL
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36 minutes ago, letmeoff said:
A fool is someone who realizes they know nothing, their first step into the unknown.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." ~ Socrates
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2 minutes ago, letmeoff said:
No hear me out.
Adam & Eve never gained life and everybody got kicked out of the garden of Eden. So if they didn't gain life and we never gained life, then is this life?
You know, I have a huge gripe, not with you, with Adam and Eve. I just think they royally messed up. I wouldn't have. I would be running around naked and free and enjoying all the fruits of the garden, except one. I'm also not fond of snakes, but they taste pretty good.
Anyway, you actually are at the wrong theme park. You need the theme park for Kabbalists (and you have to be male and over 40 and over 5"5" to get in). Next to the whirling evil eye is a huge tree, they call it the "Tree of Life," and there are stairs and ropes to hold onto, it's like climbing into a tree house. Go there to the top and there you will learn the difference between "bios" and "zoa." Are you familiar with the terms? Yeah, they're Greek to most people because they ARE Greek.
The really weird thing about this is (from what I've read) Jewish Kabbalists have studied this so much, they've gone blind. Seriously. And if you can't find the tree (the Metaphysical Theme Park map is actually BETTER than that one) DO NOT TELL SOMEONE YOU ARE LOST. If you get lost, you end up in the Esoteric Judaism lost and found. No one wants to end up there, trust me.
I think the research for you shouldn't take long. It's too long for a post on here though. But can you get a move on?
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5 minutes ago, letmeoff said:
Who says this is life.
Oh no, I was afraid of it. You are rowing us right into the kitschy Metaphysical Theme Park, the one with the big map that doesn't say, "You are Here" but "Why are You Here?" I've been through that theme park and all you do is go around in circles over and over again and get nowhere and end up with an earworm singing "It's a Small World After All." You go on ahead; it's a huge waste of time. I'll wait in the boat, but don't take all day.
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5 hours ago, letmeoff said:
I don't live for someone who'd offer me one choice, to have a relationship with them on the basis that I'd love them with all my heart, mind and strength and my neighbour as myself
Or else.
Or else means I'll never honestly know if I love Jesus because I'm not free to fail.
It's like this
You are offered the option of two doors.
Door 1 leads to heaven/paradise/a new earth/
Door 2 leads to hell/purgatory/outer darkness/separation/death
Now how does one freely choose door 2 knowing theres a better option.
Once someone tells you about both options you're stuck in a contradiction with only one way out.
That's how it works, and it's your own empathy and love to see your fellow humans not suffer that's used against you.
No, you're not offered 2 doors. Hollywood! It's red pill or blue pill and it's Price is Right Door 1 or Door 2. So life's just a dichotomy, eh?
How you decide to live your life determines your fate, not in one choice but MANY choices, a lifetime's worth. The important thing I see is that It's not WHAT you know but WHO you know.
It seems that there are levels of heaven and hell. To be fair, it's evidently better to be the least in heaven than to be in any position in hell. Who knows where you'll be at the end, but wherever it is, I believe you'll say, yep, this is where I'm supposed to be. This is a representation of my life. I think you'll say after a review of your life, this is completely fair and you'll even agree!. I deserve to be where I spend my eternity.
Why is it this way? I suppose it's because God is a just God. For some reason, it's important for him to even the score. So that "buddy" that betrayed you, cheated you and left you high and dry? That person's gotta pay. There is a lifetime of hurt and pain that other's "sins" against you have caused. I suppose that's why Jesus made a big deal out of forgiving people.
Your "empathy and love to see your fellow humans not suffer" leads you into a life of generous forgiveness. It appears to me that choosing such a pathway, filled with forgiveness works highly to your advantage.
You choose your own path, but look around, there is more than path 1 and path 2 From what I read, if you choose a path that's well worn, I'd switch to another one.
You are the slowest rower I've ever been stuck in a boat with. I'd help you, but I've been bailing the water.
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42 minutes ago, letmeoff said:
Most Christian's say that when confronted by doing like Jesus (D.L.J) But if you're not at that level then are you not curious as to why.
All it takes is faith as small as a mustered seed said Jesus, so what Christian doesn't have that.
Well, I am not a Christian. Do I believe Jesus knows his stuff, yes. Am I in a pigeon hole you call Christian, no. No, I'm still in the boat with you, my friend. Perhaps my faith is as small as a quark. Mustard seed sounds so out of range for me at this time. Now row faster, I don't have all day.
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21 hours ago, bytebear said:
What about the Joseph Smith papers?
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/
" The Joseph Smith Papers Project is an effort to gather together all extant Joseph Smith documents and to publish complete and accurate transcripts of those documents with both textual and contextual annotation. All such documents will be published electronically on this website, and a large number of the documents will also be published in print. The print and electronic publications constitute an essential resource for scholars and students of the life and work of Joseph Smith, early Mormon history, and nineteenth-century American religion. For the first time, all of Joseph Smith’s known surviving papers, which include many of the foundational documents of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, will be easily accessible in one place. "Wow, I was just perusing this site and there's a lot here! I'm going to enjoy these recourses a lot! I'm Native American, well, 1/2, and the other 1/2 is white. Not in the manner of Elizabeth Warren. LOL I especially want to understand the role of Native Americans and I see this source is loaded with info. Thanks again!
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Thank you all! I needed titles and this will help. I really appreciate it. It took me awhile to get back here because I couldn't find how to get back, but eventually I found I could trace wherever I posted. At any rate, I appreciate this and will start to find these sources. I have read some primary resources, newspapers, and you know, the LDS church was highly controversial (to put it mildly). This is actually a plus to me because if we had the media we had in the 1800s or today, Jesus would also be highly controversial to his time. I think if he had a dollar for every time someone called him a blasphemer, there'd be a stack of them to the moon.
Now I have to get busy and find these titles!!
Thanks again!
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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:
Anytime my friend. Welcome to the forums
Thank you. I'm learning a lot, way more than when I was simply lurking.
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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:
I do not think Johnson can win. Like it or not the libertarian party is still very small politically. He earned 1.2 million votes compared to 60 million for Romney and 65 million for Obama.
Yes, it is a protest vote.
Does it support Hillary? It'll take votes away from both Trump and Hillary.It's a totally fair question my friend.
Thanks! I was just looking at Fox news just now, and the Libertarian candidate in Orlando was actually stripping in front of the press. They had to digitize the footage. James Weeks, I guess is his name. What timing!
Ha! Anyway I appreciate your answer!
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I don't want to ruffle any feathers or anything. This is purely a question. Do you think that Johnson can win? If not, is your vote a protest vote? Is this your way to quietly support Hillary? Please don't read anything into this questions other than what I put here. I'm not political. I just wandered in here and wondered about it
Thanks in advance
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2 hours ago, letmeoff said:
OK then, you better start raising the dead (Because Jesus did that) and cure the sick (Because Jesus did that) and Walk on water (Because Jesus did that) and Heal the blind (Because Jesus did that) and feed thousands with a few fish and some bread (Because Jesus did that) and turn water in to wine (Because Jesus did that too)
But you can't use science to do what Jesus did (Because Jesus didn't do that)
Well, I would get right on that, but I'm not at that level of belief yet. I'm still trying to sort this all out. I want to have that belief though. When I get to that place, I'll probably not shout about it, because it is so that the Father might be glorified, not Takawi. John 14:11-13 says that we will do even GREATER things than Jesus. Talk about doubling down!
But he says that you FIRST must believe that Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus or to just believe because of the works themselves. I'm just not there, and maybe I'm a doubting Thomas and I'll miss out because I want to see and understand how it's done, and the idea of Jesus in the Father and vice versa-- I don't even understand the semantics of the passage. I'm not there. It is clearly my weakness. Even when a person wants to believe at that level, sometimes wanting isn't enough. Perhaps it's the wrong time. I don't know.
And as far as not using science and that Jesus didn't use science. The idea is ludicrous. Of course he used science, just a science you don't know yet. And that puts you in the same boat as me, letmeoff;; you aren't at that level of belief (yet). You better get rowing because I'm not counting on either of us walking on the water today.
…11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe because of the works themselves. 12Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.… -
2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:
Okay @Takawi. There is certainly no harm in preparing physically for Christ's return. My one encouragement to you would be to continue what you are doing in searching out scriptures. Eventually, the Spirit of God will direct you towards a religious community, because, for sure, our preparedness as believers is intended to be in-community, in-fellowship.
Certainly this is why I'm studying the BofM and eventually perhaps I will be a right fit for that community. I don't know.
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I wrote an introduction, but it doesn't appear yet. Briefly (and more specifically when the post is approved) here is my background. I belong to no church. I love to study history, so when I read the Bible (which I love), I have delved deeper because our culture is different today. Our customs are different. Yes, I did study Jewish meanings, culture and history when trying to understand the Bible. I've done this on my own because I love the Bible and wanted to understand what God wanted of me.
However, I come from this with no formal religious background or indoctrination, only the burning desire to know what he's trying to tell me. And I came upon this forum when I decided I wanted a place I can ask questions because I wanted to read the BofM.
12 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:Takawi, you've said we need to be physically ready. You've indicated that "oil" is oil, not some spiritualized or allegorized other (such as Holy Spirit empowerment). You've made reference to Jewish wedding traditions in a way that suggests you have some background study or knowledge. So, exactly what do you believe Jesus is telling us...that we are to be prepared with provisions for troublesome times (this is how I interpret your posts, btw)?
No, Jesus said to be physically ready. I didn't say it. I'm only telling you how I read it.
I mean exactly what I say, on the basis of what I've studied in relation to the readiness of Jewish Brides during the time of Jesus. I interpret the passage as literal. Therefore, since I do, I would be crazy not to do as Jesus says. I invite all to do the same research. Look at what a Jewish Bride did to prepare for her bridegroom in Jesus' day. It will astound you.
Here is something that might shed some light on things: If you are a soldier in the army and the general tells you to charge and take a ridge, you charge and take the ridge. You don't sit back and question, hey, is this ridge for our camp tonight? Is it really your opinion that it's right to take a ridge right now, we're kinda low on provisions and the road is out. You don't sit back and question anything. The general knows why you take the ridge, and you don't know. You just do as you're told. That's kinda how I am with obedience. I dpn't have to know WHY. I suppose it'll all be evident in time anyway.
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(2) I believe obedience, when you know that something is literal is simply that, literal. I have no special knowledge outside what is written. I choose to be obedient.
PS. The world couldn't contain all the books required to record all the things that Christ WILL DO when he returns.
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1 hour ago, zil said:
1) Knowing your current religious affiliation (if any) or background helps the bunch of strangers with whom you are communicating understand your background, point of view, etc. so that they stand a better chance of correctly understanding your words.
2) Of course obedience is important in all contexts, but we're not talking about all contexts. We're talking about understanding of one specific parable, and believe it or not, at least some of the readers here wish to understand what you are trying to communicate. Part of that understanding comes from putting boundaries around what you're saying (aka context). If you believe this "oil" is so that one will be physically and materially prepared to survive the difficult years preceding the Second Coming, that's one thing. If you believe we will need (and be able to carry with us) material / physical supplies into the millennium after the Second Coming is complete, that's another thing. Thus, I am requesting further context for your interpretation of these verses.
PS: John 21:25 says that the world couldn't contain all the books required to record all the things Christ did. I don't understand how this correlates to understanding Christ's return.
(1)I put in an introduction. I have no religious affiliation. I don't know your background either. I still don't understand how that has anything to do with what I said.
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23 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:
Takawi, it may help if you spell out your understanding of the 2nd Coming of Jesus. Do you believe we will face hardships that require us to have provisions prepared? Will we be the ones building the new heaven and new earth? As for my church, when the Y2K bug threatened worldwide disaster, we were counseled to share what we had (within reason and safety, of course). We found the survivalist mentality of some to be rather unChristlike. So, please do school me on what you are driving at.
Chaplain, I am in no position to "school" you on any subject but to show you my perspective. I simply shared what my position is regarding the scripture as evidence. As to my understanding of Jesus's return, I would direct you to John 21:25. So as it was then, shall it be in his return.
23 minutes ago, zil said:I think two things would make it easier for people to understand where you're coming from @Takawi:
1) What is your religion? Are you a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or....?
2) Are you coming from a perspective of being prepared to survive the difficult times which exist and will exist in the years leading up to the millennium, or of preparing material supplies for use in the millennium, or both?
Zil, (1) I'm not sure my religion--or rather lack thereof-- has anything to do with whether scripture is literal or figurative, but you have kindly reminded me that I have neglected to do an introduction on the forum page designed for that.. I should have done that. I hope to do it today. I'm simply learning. I have just begun to read the Book of Mormon.
(2) I'm coming from the perspective that I think that obedience is prudent whether it be for the return of Jesus or any other thing he would want us to do.
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10 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:
One understanding of this parable that is near-universal is that it pertains to Jesus' return. He is telling his followers to be ready. They won't need material when he returns
Sure, this should be likened to the return of Jesus.
But where you and I depart is that I say this is physical and you say this is merely "spiritual," whatever that means to you.
If you consider why he chose brides to contrast the wise and foolish, you might be able to see where I'm coming from. Brides in this position are ready for the bridegroom to come; they are excited; they are in anticipation of a new life. They have not just oil but in those days, a Jewish bride would have garments made, food put by, kitchen implements, jars and vessels. A bride is truly physically prepared for her bridegroom, complete with all she needs to start life as his helpmeet. How do you know that we "won't need the material when he returns?" Jesus just told us that it's important to wait for him just like a wise bride! He told us to make sure we bought oil. How much clearer can he be?
I see this and don't understand how it's thought that God is like some kind of Santa Claus. He will provide all. BUT, wedding customs are present in all cultures and especially this one and that is that the bride is expected to provide and to prepare physical preps. It's too late to prepare when he comes and he's disappointed that his bride was foolish and didn't prepare for his arrival. It's too late because you can't even buy oil.
And I don't "buy" that the oil in this case is merely being "filled with the spirit." Oil is so much more. Oil is food, medicine and fuel. Oil is what stood between life and death for a widow and her son who had borrowed vessels when the prophet Elisha told the woman to gather them. Oil is the ultimate prep item across the ages.
"Steady prayers and scripture practice?" Are you joshin' me? That's how you are ready? Do you mean like memorizing words? Rote prayers? I really don't think that would mean much to the bridegroom coming. Hey, Jesus, I prepped for this day, I memorized all of 2 Kings, OK I'm ready, uh but no, I didn't buy oil. The Pharisees had beautiful prayers and their superior knowledge of scripture. You realize when this was spoken, there was no New Testament. There was only the law, history, prophecies and tradition, and we all know what Jesus thought of tradition.
From what I understand, this simply can't be any clearer.
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Is there a book of sermons that Joseph Smith had given in his lifetime? I'd like to read something like that if it exists.
Thank you
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30 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:
If the only thing I ever read of Jesus was this parable, then I could understand the very literal interpretation you offer. However, when Jesus tells us what to do--love God and neighbor (including enemies), and when he tells us how to be (meek, mournful, poor in spirit, etc.), his focus is spiritual.
Does Jesus tell in the story that the wise virgins were to love their neighbor (including the foolish) by SHARING their oil? No. Do they say they are as birds of the air and don't give any care about tomorrow and give away all their oil? No. Aren't they dressed in their finery waiting for the Bridegroom? Jewish brides are going to have all the bling they can fit on their bodies and not dressed as lilies in the field. Does he tell that they were meek and just let the foolish virgins take their oil? No again. By this act of the wise virgins alone, it clues me in that it is literal.
It's my observation that Jesus often doesn't do or say the same thing twice (not including the gospels that were written by different authors covering the same events). He heals in different ways; he speaks harshly and softly. He rebukes and he shows compassion. He recognizes a woman's grab of his tzitzit (the fringes of his Jewish religious garment), and he knows. What are the tzitzit? They are a Jewish man's representation of the laws of Moses which he wears daily. Think of what that means! And an issue of blood? Oh my, she's definitely "unclean." He's not so typical to the Jews around him.
Also, it's not the only thing I've read of Jesus. But it's true, I'm thoroughly "unchurched" I think the word is. I had never read the Book of Mormon before either. As I say, I'm just learning, but I can't agree with you, chaplain that the story is anything but literal. Be prepared in a pragmatic way. It truly is wise.
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On Being Ready: I totally can't understand the story of the foolish and wise virgins the way some see it. The wise had physical preps and they were waiting with expectation. The foolish hadn't what they needed. It wasn't something spiritual, the way I saw it, but the story is presented in a pragmatic way. The foolish hadn't purchased items they needed to be ready to be able to go off with the bridegroom--that made them foolish. Once a Baptist person told me on basis of this scripture that I need to be ready and the "ready" was a quick little prayer that signs and seals me into some kind of rapture protection program.
It was just my experience, but I couldn't make the leap. I couldn't see that being ready in this story meant anything more than have whatever gear you need when Jesus comes. It looks physical to me. Have what you need ready because you might not be able to have time or the ability to buy the things you'll need. The wise also didn't say, here, have some of my oil. They knew they needed it all, and they sent the foolish to go and buy their own. But it was too late.
To me, and I'm really just trying to learn, the thought that ministers of the gospel had "overplayed their hand" on prophecy makes me think that it is (to some) something as base as a bluff in a card game--and I'm sure the chaplain didn't mean it that way.
It's just my opinion, but I would think that something like prophecy, REAL prophecy (whether it would be about Jesus' return or some other matter) would be so sacred, that one would look at it as though the person who speaks it is actually speaking God's words, saying what He would say to each of us. It would be an honor to hear the words because you'd know the cadence of the voice and the tenor of the speech because it's the Master's words, even though it would be spoken by a person.
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Forgive me for not knowing a lot. I'm learning. I think that the answer to the question "How to love like God" might be rooted in the scripture: Greater Love hath no MAN than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends. I'm probably paraphrasing. I suppose if we are to love like God that we would do exactly what Jesus did. To love like God is to give up, even one's life.
I know he didn't say, "Greater love hath no god than this". But I kinda get his drift. I wonder what Jesus meant for us to pick up our cross daily and follow him. Follow him where? The only place I know that you end up when you have a cross like that is: you're gonna die. Not an easy death either.
I suppose there is no greater love, when you have given your all, even your life.
Book of sermons
in Learn about The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints
Posted
Uh oh. I used to think she (pardon me, "he") had a haircut kinda like Justin Bieber, and after I saw someone else said that, Bieber changed his look to blond dreadlocks. I don't know if the look was changed due to the comment, but it wouldn't surprise me!
@LeSellers I'm heading out on vacation. I wasn't going to take my laptop, but I have downloaded a lot of texts, and I'll take it anyway, but there will be no wifi there. I'll write down questions as I get them and save them for when I get back. I am astounded that the Mormons went amongst the Indians in the 1830s, that's like the time of the most agitation, at least amongst nations I've studied. Also, the idea of allying with the Indians against the people persecuting them was quite bold indeed. I'll comment more when I get back. It's quite interesting! TTYL