Veritas

I Very much appreciate that you took so much time to offer a conserved reply. A few points: Whil I understand your distinction about academic versus spiritual interest, I'm not sure I agree with the premise. I'm not taking it personally or anything, but I am steadfastly praying and trying to make changes and reading scripture (even though I hav a hard time following it). I'm trying to submit and be obedient, as far as I know how, and I still am failing to receive the spirit. it seems a little presumptuous and very convenient to say that the reason someone doesn't receive insights or feelings of the church being true or the BoM authentic is because they don't have "real intent" in seeking God. I guess one issue I've had with any religion is the idea that a supposedly caring, loving God would expect obedience and punish those who aren't, when the same God puts so much trauma in the world and allows free will. It seems awfully spiteful, and why would God need approval from such lesser creatures? Shouldn't the truth and joys be universal? Anyway, I know that goes far deeper than LDS specifically, it's just one issue I've grappled with. As you point out, we are all blindly obedient from time to time. Most of us are inherently obedient to moral principles, like not killing, stealing, lying, etc. i understand and your point about speaking as a man versus speaking in an official capacity for the church. But that doesn't answer my questions or concerns about oscillating reservation. Polygamy was god's plan for years before it wasn't and is now dealt with very harshly. Ditto with blacks in the priesthood. There are other examples, to various degrees. I'm not looking to litigate history, but I'm confused how such obedience can be expected of men delivering god's message when that message seems to waver when social circumstances require it. I don't think God is ambivalent or making mistakes, so isn't it possible that those interpreting the message are making mistakes? I guess that goes back to the fundamental concerns of my post.

I appreciate that you took the time to respond so thoughtfully. I I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the analogy, but it seems flawed to me. Religious persecution isn't new, or unique to Mormons. Even today, it happens to non-Mormons. Christians are unsafe in many parts of the world. Even radical Islamists could say they're the one true path and are persecuted by the west and apostates. I'm not in any way saying that LDS is like radical Islam, because that would be absurd, I'm just pointing out that the same arguments could exist. Obviously the Saints were persecuted, but I'm not sure if modern criticism or even heckling (harsh and rude as it may be) is akin to persecution, particularly when looking through a historical lens. I also think it's kind of dangerous to assume that critical thoughts or questions about historical facts or incongruencies should simply be dismissed as the work of Satan

I hate to consider myself intellectual, but yeah, I guess that label is apt. I am definitely very analytical and logical, which tends to fly in the face of faith. I think your suggestion is good, and it's something I had thought of. I'm trying to be steadfast even though I don't seem to be getting much in the feelings department. At least it isn't negative!

As some of you may have noticed from my other post, I've been investigating for 8-9 years, despite being gay and agnostic. Not sure if my interest is academic or spiritual, but I don't seem to be getting much in the way of divine inspiration despite my pleas. I'm generally a skeptic and (overly) analytical. For every pro-LDS thing I find, I find something negative (sometimes from former members). I'm not looking into getting into the issues about the historicity of the Book of Mormon, or litigate polygamy (personally, I don't really care so long as it's consenting adults who aren't leaching off the state), or bring up blood atonement or massacres or whatever sketchiness there may be. What I'm curious about is the seemingly blind adherence to central authorities. I don't mean that to sound judgmental, but I don't understand how a church that advocates patriotism and thinks the Constitution and other founding documents were divinely inspired can demand such obedience and allegiance from members. It just doesn't seem like there's room for diversity of thought (like when it comes to feminism or homosexuality), and that bothers me. I remember having this discussion with a friend who is a member about the childhood baptism of married gays and despite knowing she is more liberal on homosexuality than many members, she was in lockstep. Her opposition didn't bother me so much as her stated reasons. The only response I could get was "Well, the general authorities say this, I'm a good Mormon, and I don't question it." I just don't understand such circular logic. So here's my point: The church is founded on the notion of apostasy, by men. It's restored through Joseph Smith, a man. The church teaches that neither Joseph nor any prophet are worshipped. They aren't God (exaltation aside, but that's another discussion). If they're men, aren't they weak, sinful, and fallible? Isn't possible that any prophet, including Joseph, made mistakes and were not or are not always divinely inspired? There are things the church has evolved on that were deeply held beliefs but not widely socially accepted, like polygamy (desire for statehood) and barring blacks from the priesthood (because it was inherently racist). My understanding is even that in the early church, there were black members of the priesthood, so that didn't come from the Restoration. No current members rationalize or want to go back to those policies, but weren't those once believed to be from God? Does God really change his mind about that sort of thing after a few decades? I'm not trying to be flip or disrespect anyone's faith, I just don't understand. I guess my general point is, is it possible that there has been apostasy since the Restoration and that any man, even a prophet or apostle, could be corrupted (or at least misinterpret or mistake signs)? Isn't that an inherent risk when relying on continued revelation from a living prophet? Also, as a bit of an aside but as someone who is struggling with it, can someone explain why the missionaries advocate for listening to the Holy Ghost when investigating the church, and praying on things for understanding, but the Holy Ghost isn't conferred upon someone until they're confirmed and had the hands laid on them by a member of the priesthood, after they've been baptized? How can I listen to something I haven't been given? Or is it to degrees?

Forgive me for the length of this... I'm not even really sure how to start this post other than that I've been an investigator, intermittently, for the better part of a decade. I'm 28. When I was in college, I thought it would be a facinating social experiment to join the church, get a temple recommend, and record my experiences. I was into journalism at the time and critical of the church. I was never very serious about it, but enough that I started to do a lot of research. That changed my mind and heart. Growing up with an LDS meetinghouse just down the street from my elementary school, I grew up around a lot of Mormon kids in the neighborhood. It was never an issue or anything and I was only vaguely aware, but I fell into the whole ridiculous cult mindset. I never had any close childhood friends who were LDS, but certainly acquaintances I'm only still in contact with one. Ive had this weird intrigue, almost fascination, with LDS for years. It isn't constant or anything but comes in waves, and I would pretty consistently watch Mormon movies, read about LDS news, turn on BYUTV, watch YouTube videos, etc. so I'm more aware of the culture, history, apologism, and criticisms leveled against the church. I know enough to probably get me into trouble, but not so much on scripture. Still, I've become pretty defensive of Mormons, since I think they get a bum rap, but also critical of some of he social policies. But here's the deal. I'm agnostic, so I'm not even sure God exists. When I pray, which I've tried to do steadfastly for years, I can't shake the feeling that I may be talking to myself. I really wish I could have faith and clarity but it eludes me. Moroni's Promise? Not so much quite frankly, reading the Book of Mormon has kind of bored me. I think it's the old English I've always been a skeptic and embraced playing the Devil's Advocate. I'm also gay, and I'm not apologetic about that even if I "pass" and keep conservative politics. The closet is an awful place and I will not subject myself again to to the anguish of that. I realize SSA is not a deal breaker, but being an observant Mormon would require celibacy, a lack of love, etc. and preclude me from many things. I know it isn't unheard of but it does complicate things. I've always joked I'd make a good Mormon if it weren't for the gay thing, since I already don't smoke, drink alcohol or coffee, etc. Im also an introvert, and as I've seen in other threads, I know that can throw a wrench into things. And of course, the tithing thing is challenging to absorb. For or the sake of wrapping this post up, I will say that I'm in the middle of an upswing of intense interest. I'm not sure if it's academic or spiritual, but I'm trying to be open minded and open hearted. My family recently moved away, so I don't want to mistake loneliness for the Holy Ghost. I actually went to sacrament for the first time this Sunday. It was daunting because of my issues with social anxiety (which I mostly manage but makes new environments and people a little overwhelming). The LDS friend from elementary school has been very affirming and a great resource, and invited me to go with her family while she's in town (but we haven't seen each other since middle school). Her father is e bishop. She also invited me to dinner later this week, across town. I guess they're feeding the missionaries. I'm not really sure what the point of my post is or what I'm asking, other than to get it out there. Other than my one friend, I don't really feel like I can talk to anyone about it who might understand.