Rob Osborn
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Posts posted by Rob Osborn
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And then you have the endowment, given after section 76, which explains clearly the plan of salvation along with further light and knowledge but people are too caught up by the past and old dogma that they can't see the doctrine being explained. That's where we are as a general church body.
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1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:
If we're adopting the Meso-American model for the bulk of the Book of Mormon events, it makes a whole lot more sense for Moroni to travel several thousand miles alone than it does for two entire civilizations to relocate themselves four thousand miles for a single, winner-take-all battle.
It just continually fascinates me how you this incredible ability to lay out all of the evidence supporting conclusion A, but always adopt conclusion B instead.
Who said they were entirely relocating?
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2 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:
Unless, of course, he took the Jaredite plates with him. If these were of similar construction as the plates, adding them wouldn't be that much more of a burden, and we do know he took other things with him as well.
This is actually one of the weaker points of Two Cumorah theory. If he took the Jaredite plates with him, why weren't they buried with the gold plates? There are a few plausible explanations, including he discarded them after completing the abridgment, or they are part of the sealed portion of the plates.
But again, the evidence available to us provides no indication to prefer one theory over another.
It just seems like a stretch. Meso-america models have the Nephites never traveling more than a couple hundred miles in their battles. So, here we have Moroni, traveling only a couple hundred miles all his life in a small geographical area and then suddenly he travels thousands of miles away to deposit plates in some far off foreign land?
My personal opinion is that he had access to the repository during his final writings. He was given only the small plates by Mormon. So how did he acquire or access the other records to abridge and add to the entrusted plates? Well, by being in close proximity to the repository. It's doubtful he took both records thousands of miles away either.
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14 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:
Interestingly, those same reasons are equally compelling arguments for the Second Cumorah theory. That is, equally probable. (As are pretty much every argument you could make in favor of either theory)
Well, not really. The way I read it is that he was close to the records in his last writings as he had access to the plates to abridge the Jaredite record. I find it improbable that after he finished his writings he then wandered some thousands of miles away to bury them.
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35 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:
No, it is not "most probable." It is merely plausible. But even that has some weird things to consider. For instance, if the hill has this massive repository of records, why build a new box? Moroni writes in Moroni 1 that "they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ" and "wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life." These statements are not sufficiently descriptive enough to determine if he is wandering near the same place to keep access to the records, or if he has wandered far way to keep his distance and safety. Both hypotheses are plausible, and you can't put any kind of reliable probability on either of them.
And sure, the plates are heavy. But the battle at Cumorah happened in 385 AD, and Moroni buried the plates THIRTY-FREAKING SIX years later! In order to travel the 4,436 miles between the Panama Canal and Palmyra, you'd have to only cover an average of 0.4 miles per day. I can cover about 8 - 10 miles per day carrying 50 pounds. With a pack animal, it isn't hard to cover that much with a much heavier load.
So yeah, the two Cumorah theory is entirely plausible given the distances and time frames involved.
Also "If I were Moroni" is not a valid defense or argument. You are demonstrably not Moroni, and so your thoughts and motivations are irrelevant. What's relevant is the thoughts and processes of Moroni? How did he evaluate the risk given his skills and ability.
I just think it's most probable that he buried the plates not far from the repository. He would have buried them separate for several reasons most of which for the safety and security of the prized record.
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4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:
I am reluctant to say that the Protestant view (or Catholic) is necessarily caught in the past. I'd say it is more appropriate to perhaps say it is just not the complete plan of Salvation in relation to what the Church teaches. We know after we leave this life that there are two locations we may end up...Spirit Paradise or Spirit Prison. Many other Christian religions also believe this same dichotomy...except they call these two places heaven and hell. Hence, they are not necessarily incorrect, but it is that they see the result right after this life as the eternal result thereof, rather than the next step.
It's merely a different terminology and way of understanding than those in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints possess.
Just a little quibble but the Protestant view of heaven or hell is after resurrection and judgment. In fact, it's the very exact view of our Book of Mormon. And, if one closely understands the D&C, it's the same heaven or hell as taught there as well. Whether we like to admit it or not, our own LDS scriptures teach this same Protestant heaven or hell dichotomy.
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52 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:
This is an extremely weak argument. Pathetically so, in fact.
First, Moroni didn't need the entire repository. Moroni's contribution was limited to
- translating and abridging the plates of Ether. There were 24 of these. It's entirely plausible he carried them with him.
- the Book of Moroni. This includes a few letters from his father. But there's no reason to believe these letters were on anything other than paper.
Furthermore, even a light reading of Moroni's work will show that he doesn't make references to other sources. Contrary to Nephi's and Mormon's writings, which make frequent references to other references, Moroni appears to be working entirely independent of other sources (outside of Ether).
This doesn't rule out the possibility of the repository being in New York, but it's pretty evident that even if he had access to it, he wasn't using it. So there isn't much need for him to stay close to it.
As for the second part of your argument, you could apply all sorts of game theory to this. Moroni could have chosen to stay near the territories he was familiar with, which are teeming with people who would be more than happy to rob him, murder him, and melt down his plates for the gold. In this scenario, he has to rely on his knowledge of the territory to hide from those who would kill him. His other option is to run so far away that it isn't worth pursuing him. If the event of the Book of Mormon were isolated to the southern part of Central America, escaping as far north as modern Mexico would be far enough to be as good as dead to his enemies. If Moroni's primary concern is preserving his life and the plates, that gets a lot easier to do if you go somewhere that nobody is looking for you.
Let's suppose for a minute that this "hill Cumorah", where the repository was, is somewhere in central America/ Mexico. Under this scenario Moroni continues and finishes the record oh his people and also abridges the record of the Jaredites. Not knowing how long his life is going to be preserved he then finishes it and then walks or transports them somehow a few thousand miles away and builds a stone or cement box in the hill in New York. That doesn't seem probable at all. Mormon entrusted Moroni only with the plates of Nephi. It is only after the great battle and Moroni having some space to write on that he gets the Jaredites record and abridges it. It sounds like to me that he is doing this in proximity to the repository where the rest of the plates are stored. But then he is still tasked with carrying them thousands of miles and burying them far far away. It just doesn't add up.
If I were Moroni I wouldnt take the risk of carrying the precious plates around thousands of miles from the area I knew. It's most probable that he stayed close to the repository until he finished the record and sealed it up in the earth. What better place than to just stay put because everyone that tried to escape were hunted down and killed. The last place the Lamanites are going to look is the very battlefields of the great final war. The plates are heavy. They aren't something you are just gonna strap on your back and go on a great walkabout for thousands of miles.
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18 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
probably because the repository is also in Cumorah in New York.
Yes, precisely, the repository is in New York.
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I have always seen it as problematic that Moroni would bury The plates thousands of miles from where he had the rest of the repository was. Certainly Moroni wouldn't risk his life to transport the only set of plates thousands of miles into a territory he had no idea about.
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11 minutes ago, wenglund said:
My unwitting irony detector is spinning like a fan, which isn't good during cold weather.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
You are aware of the rules. Here they are as it pertains-
"4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post."
I was banned a week the last time you bickered with me. I'm not going there again. Good day.
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3 minutes ago, wenglund said:
I don't know that either of us are in a position to speak on behalf of "we as a church," no matter what our prodigious egos may tell us.
However, speaking for myself, and what I have observed on this board and elsewhere, there are members, me somewhat included, who not only fail to fully understand that baptism is a gate to a path, but also how the cleansing that is a part of the baptismal gate, itself, is a form of salvation, let alone what all baptism symbolizes.
The same seems to be the case with the notion of "rebirth", "born again," or "born from above," which, interestingly enough, is the subject of this weeks Come Follow Me lesson.
Yet, the most serious deficit in understand that I have observed, approaching Nicodemus magnitude, is how certain members fail to grasp how this all relates to the resurrection and multiple kingdoms therein. They don't get how this all points not only to Christ, but his creation of new eternal creatures They are not only 15 years in the past, but seem stick in the binary Protestant view of the afterlife that has been around since ancient times, though they suppose themselves to be something of an expert with knowledge and truth exceeding church leaders and general membership.
Even so, as the saying goes, there are some people you just cant reach.
Thanks, -Wade Enguojnd-
If you ever get off your high horse and want to discuss I'm game. Until then, goodbye!
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2 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:
Doubt and lacking faith are NOT sins. Last general conference stated that very clearly.
Which psalm ??
Bruce R. Mckonkie wrote that definition you know. You shouldnt be so quick to cling to it. If you re read that definition, it says, spiritual death is death pertaining to things of righteousness, but this only applies to the judgement. The other type of spiritual death is separation from God.
Christ needed to experience spiritual death, otherwise he is a liar when he says he descended below all things. I could say I've experienced worse than Him, because I have experienced being without God and he hasn't.
Here is the Messianic Psalm from 22
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.Read the comments here-
Christ descended below all things but yet never went into hell, nor suffered spiritual death, was never an actual sinner, etc. He felt the effects of the sin, that's what is meant.
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6 minutes ago, Aaddaamm said:
I believe and so does Bruce R. Mckonkie and many other apostles, that Christ experienced spiritual death on the cross for a short moment, when he cried, "Eli eli, Lama sabacthani", which is to say: my God my God, why have you forsaken me.
Well, its impossible to suffer being spiritually dead if one is actually alive to the things of righteousness. Its an oxymoron to say one suffered spiritual death even though they were alive to the things of righteousness. Again, we shouldnt confuse and conflate side effect with the definition of the cause.
Besides that, the words Christ exclaimed was reciting an old psalm that testified of his cause as the Savior of mankind. Had he really doubted and questioned God on the cross he would have sinned as lack of faith and doubt is sin.
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There is a Ted Bundy thread in the general forums and it got me to thinking, Bundy is perhaps as close to what Satan is like. Ted Bundy stated late in his life that he felt no compassion for people, pretty much viewed humanity as a waste. I think Satan views life the same. Just like Satan, Bundy liked the control and possession of others.
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28 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
Spiritual death = removed from the presence of God. This is the definition, not the effect.
We are all here in mortal existence removed from the presence of God. We are in a spiritual death. Spiritual death does not give us death to good works due to the light of Christ.
Spiritual death is being dead to good works which results in the loss of the spirit. When we repent and are baptized we become born again in the spirit, born again into righteousness, alive again in the spirit.
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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:
If you don't know, how can it be false?
It's a logical extrapolation. Children who die without having fully exercised their free will through mortality must not have need to experience the change needed in mortal existence. They continue their learning (change) in the spirit world without the burden of the mortal body.
It is neither true nor false. It's an extrapolation. Unless you have revelation that prove this extrapolation false.
So, logically then, under your said premise, a child who is murdered was predestined for that outcome.
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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
Perfected clean spirit = Jesus Christ. He's the perfected clean spirit that answered the call to pay for our uncleanliness. The Holy Ghost is another one that could have done it, but it was not his mission. It was Christ's. That's why Christ had to die (be completely separated from the Father). The completion of the atonement was when he uttered the words, "Father, why have you forsaken me?". At that time, Jesus Christ was completely separated from the presence of the Father - a spiritual death that he didn't earn through sin but through voluntarily accepting it.
I guess it's a little quibble point but spiritual death is being dead to good works. One of the effects of that spiritual death is the removal of the presence of God. An effect is not the definition but a result.
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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:
The only way to redeem us from death is for a perfected clean Spirit to die (be separated from the Father)
I agree with everything in your last comment except for what I quoted you above. I tend to believe that the only way to redeem us from our spiritual death is through Christ who had no spiritual death and thus why he is called the life and the way.
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8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
...but it is our understanding that children who die before the age of accountability are spirits who are already on that spiritual level and don't need to change.
I don't know about this but I would bet it's false.
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7 hours ago, SilentOne said:
I was just coming back to add that officially recognizing the name as being the same is not particularly strong evidence one way or the other.
I would find it strange for there to be two or more hill Cumorahs.
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Just now, SilentOne said:
And the temple closest to my home is called the Jordan River Temple, which could be construed as officially recognizing that nearby river as the Jordan River. I don't think anybody would assume that means it's the same as the river Christ was baptized in.
Apples and oranges
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The drumlin in New York is officially recognized by the church as being called the "Hill Cumorah".
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12 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:
Here’s and excellent article written by Vince Methot of the Seven of Everything blog who understands the issues perfectly. Like Yours Truly, he’s able to harmonize the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants presentations on the plan of salvation without twisting many passages of the scriptures out of joint. And just as importantly, he’s able to harmonize these same books of scripture with the testimonies of our living prophets without claiming that the current First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve don’t know what they’re talking about.
Kingdoms of Salvation
President Uchtdorf said something in General Conference on Saturday Morning in his talk 'It Works Wonderfully!'(Oct 2015) that stuck out to me because I have been writing about it for some time. It is not a topic generally understood by most members, and when they ask, they normally get the wrong answer. Here is what he said:The Savior’s sacrifice opened the door of salvation for all to return to God. His “grace is sufficient for all [who] humble themselves before [God].” His grace is the enabling power that allows access into God’s kingdoms of salvation. Because of His grace, we will all be resurrected and saved in a kingdom of glory. Even the lowest kingdom of glory, the telestial kingdom, “surpasses all understanding,” and numberless people will inherit this salvation. But the Savior’s grace can do much more for us. As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we aspire to something unimaginably greater. It is exaltation in the celestial kingdom. It is life eternal in the presence of our Father in Heaven. It is the greatest gift of God. In the celestial kingdom, we receive “of His fulness, and of His glory.” Indeed, all that the Father hath shall be given unto us." (Emphasis added)
Door of Salvation
"The Savior's sacrifice opened the door of salvation for all to return to God."
This is consistent with the 3rd article of faith: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved..." John 10:1-18 talks extensively about how Christ is the door. 2 Nephi 31:17 explains that this door, or gate, is repentance and baptism. Romans 6 explains the connection between Christ and baptism. It is also explained in my previous post, "Biblical Take on Remission."
Kingdoms of Salvation
"His grace is the enabling power that allows access into God’s kingdoms of salvation."
In the scriptures it repeatedly talks about the kingdom of God (singular) and what is needed to go there. Salvation is entrance into God's kingdom (singular). However, in February of 1832 God revealed the meaning of His phrase, "In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you." (John 14:2, see also D&C 76:111) Anybody, even with a belief in the trinity, should understand the concept of three in one. If His grace is the enabling power that allows access into the kingdom of God, then obviously this is also true of all kingdoms within His kingdom. The requirements to get into the kingdom of God are also necessary to get into any kingdom within.
So I repeat, salvation is entrance into God's kingdom. Likewise, salvation is entrance into any of God's kingdoms within His kingdom. It is stated in scripture and by President Uchtdorf that, "because of His grace, we will all be resurrected and saved in a kingdom of glory." And, "numberless people will inherit ... salvation, [in] even the lowest kingdom of glory, the telestial kingdom." (see above for exact quote, see also D&C 76:88 and D&C 76:109)
Baptism is Required for Salvation
To summarize, baptism is required for salvation. Baptism is required to enter the kingdom of God. Therefore, baptism is required to enter the telestial kingdom of salvation because it is part of the kingdom of God. Confusion on this topic has come because of overlooking or misunderstanding of more recent revelation, even by a prophet and an apostle. I will explain the origins of the misunderstanding, how it was cleared up by revelation, and how it was brought back and is present in church manuals today in my next posts (Understanding Baptism Line upon Line, Misunderstanding Baptism for Salvation).
However, it is fortunate that despite this misunderstanding, the concept in the third paragraph by President Uchtdorf quoted above did also persist. "As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we aspire to something unimaginably greater. It is exaltation in the celestial kingdom."He is where I was some 15 years ago. So many issues to talk about that he brings up. Just one area I agree with is that baptism is essential to salvation. But therein lies the issue, we, as a church body, do not comprehend that baptism is merely a gate, it gets us no salvation, just access to the path, that upon completion, gets us salvation. That path takes us through kingdoms, through the steps required, to become perfect. It is at that point we gain salvation.
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17 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:
There have been multiple talks on the three degrees of glory previously (and perhaps there may be in the future as well), if that is not enough today to resolve a disagreement, should anything more be stated than already has been?
I see change happening but in order for it to happen it will be through small and simple steps. Correcting some doctrinal definition of words and terms would come first. I think it would literally take years and perhaps decades to change/modify an entire doctrine concerning heaven and hell and the plan of salvation. I am highly optimistic though.
The Hill Cumorah
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
I think it's sad that the only real reason people want to discount the hill in New York is because it's so far away from Mexico. And yet, ironically, distance isn't a problem for them on the other hand transporting the plates. There was enough evidence of antiquity in Western New York that the Smithsonian was started and official inquiry was made, book written, to attempt to explain all of the ancient remains of fortifications and bones and remains of ancient warfare in Western New York.