Rob Osborn
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Posts posted by Rob Osborn
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6 hours ago, askandanswer said:
Thanks Rob. This seems to be a version of the argument that foreknowledge implies predestination. I have sometimes looked at these arguments and have found them to be difficult to follow and as yet, I don't have a firm view on them either way. However, it seems to me that if complete knowledge of everything that will happen means that one can only choose and do that which will bring about that which one knows will happen, I can still readily imagine that God, when deciding and planning out what the future would be, had a very wide range of choices to choose from. However, once having exercised that choice, yes, I can see how His range of future choices would then be more limited than what they were previous to deciding what the future would be. I also think its possible for God to know about and plan and prepare for a number of possible futures, and if there are multiple possible futures, I think that would then open up the possibility of choice. ( I must admit that my thinking on this last mentioned possibility is still a little under-developed).
As to the idea that God created Lucifer knowing what he would become, I've just finished writing about that possibility in the last paragraph of my edited reply to Ed. The last paragraph of my reply to Ed was not included in my original reply so you might not have seen it yet.
I have given the subject tremendous thought and my own conclusion I feel comfortable giving is that opposition in the form of an evil person doesnt have to exist for the plan to work. The plan laid out in heaven was in place before Lucifer fell. It was a given that man would fall and a Savior would be needed. This evidence was already apparant before Lucifer fell. When lucifer fell and became Satan it says he knew not the mind of God. It meant that Satan tried to alter or change the plan to thwart God and take his power.
My firm belief is that our particular situation on this earth with the conditions as they exist is unique in the eternities. We have a different battle with a whole lot more at stake than what normally takes place amongst the Gods because of the great conspiracy that Satan was running in heaven and continues with here on earth.
My belief, and I feel very confident in it, is that myriads of worlds came and went, myriads of generations if Gods came to pass without much if a hiccup and then came Lucifer, a spirit of high power and authority in heaven second only to Christ, who used strategy and conspiracy in the courts of heaven to overthrow the kingdom. He was found out, his secrets God countered with his own, which then laid the foundation of our particular earth where the great test would take place and victor takes all in the end. So much being at stake, God took his best most valiant spirits and sent them here to earth to ensure the kingdom of the devil would be destroyed. Satan has all his chips on the table now playing out on this particular earth.
In one sense, we are living out a scenerio here on earth that has perhaps never come about in the eternities. God allows Satan because, after all, Satan did establish his kingdom on the principle of free will. I would bet that because of the situation here, our experience is unique in the history of eternity. God will destroy Satan and all his works in the end. What will that mean? It probably means that another situation like this will possibly never arise again because all of the secret plans of Satan will be destroyed and the children of the Gods will no longer learn evilness in heaven to ever again make war with God. To me this means that new provisions will be put in place that will prevent the scenerio of Lucifer ever happening all over again in eternity. God doesnt have to have evilness to fulfill his plans. But, since we have it now, God uses it for his own good to better preoare his elect to destroy Satan and all his works.
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55 minutes ago, askandanswer said:
Rob, could you elaborate on this please? I don't think I follow your logic here and I can't see how you get from how God knowing something then leads to the creation of evil.
I agree with you that peoples' decisions to choose to do good or evil is not predestined and that if this were the case it would impact on free will.
Some people argue that God knows absolutely everything that will ever happen, even the very finest of details. If this is true then before God created Lucifer he knew already every little detail that would be in place leading to his fall at the precise time. It would mean that God placed into being the known causes that would exactly cause him to fall. Thus, by default, God can do nothing other than create Lucifer to become satan knowing fully beforehand he woukd have to first give him truth and power so that he could then fall. Paradoxly though for God, he himself has no free will because he can only do exactly what the future he knows holds, of which, he knows perfectly beforehand. So, under this theory, God has no free will to either create or destroy any situation that may effect the eternity that could not be changed.
That is why I reject the idea God knows everything. He only knows that which is possible to know. He may have a myriad of wisdom about possible outcomes and he can sway outcomes towards prophecy through his interactions, but he must have "choice" and choice can only exist if the future isnt known.
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As a boy scout leader I allow my boys to make bad decisions that cause some degree of personal or group suffering so that they can learn from it and be stronger and wiser. It may be something as simple as allowing a boy to completely destroy the gravy for the potatoes on a campout so that next time he pays better attention and does better.
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God is not a part of creating evil. God only creates good and it is up to his creations to then choose also to be good. The higher argument to this topic is if it is true God knows all things before they happen or only know all things that are possible to be known due to free will. If one argues God truly does know all things then yes God truly does create evil. But, by doing so it creates a paradox in that God doesnt truly just do good. My belief is that God knows only that which can be known and peoples decisions to choose to do good or evil isn't predestined in them which would nullify true free will..
I do believe it is possible to create children in a system where all choose to be good. The actual presence of evil isnt required to bring about good.
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No, eternal lufe and exaltation are different. According to the scriptures all who are saved from the second death will receive eternal life. This eternal life will come to all except the sons of perdition. Exaltation is the highest degree in the celestial kingdom.
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I think it wise that for now at least the Hill Cumorah is in upstate New York based on the many testimonies of past and present apostles and prophets. The church officially recognizes the hill in New York as the very hill Cumorah spoken of in the scriptures.
Evidence itself is so subjective that even when direct substancial evidence is found it is often overlooked, forgotten in time, etc. Many are completely unaware for instance that our own government hundreds of years ago set up institutions like the Smithsonian to try to decipher what appeared to be the destruction of two ancient civilizations in New York. Books were written, studies were made and published. Yet, through time, these evidences and facts became less known and forgotten.
I think I know why Satan hates us so much
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Satan is mad because his plans were found out. I personally believe he had an extensive secret cabal going in heaven and had promised many lies to gain power. His argument is still the same today as it was then- that we should be law unto ourselves and whatever we want should be justified.