Rob Osborn
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Posts posted by Rob Osborn
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12 minutes ago, zil said:
First, I wish to reiterate what was in that post I linked to (which was my own post): I studied scripture relating to immortality, exaltation, and resurrection. I did this over an extended period, and what I found leads me to believe, based on scripture, that there is no inter-kingdom movement after resurrection*. I recommend anyone and everyone concerned on this matter study the scriptures for themselves.
1. Who ever said it was 100% based on this short life span? I don't see anyone saying that. Our progress began in eternity past and will continue after this life, in the world of spirits, right up until the resurrection. Those who aren't ready for such permanence will be resurrected last (after the millennium) - a mercy indeed.
2. See #1.
Finally, somewhere, I've already said that I believe God isn't the only one who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I believe all of us are. Those who will one day inherit all the Father has were already headed there literally an eternity ago, and will continue on that path for eternity to come. Those for who the Telestial is the bomb have been headed there for eternity. The same for Terrestrial beings. Thus, it is not only this mortality which determines the glory by which we are quickened - we have been headed for our individual ends for all eternity. It won't matter at death, or even the resurrection who far along that path I am. It will matter that I was, am, and always will be on that path. (In other words, I don't believe that at resurrection we will be like the Father or our Savior in every aspect. I believe we will continue to learn line upon line until we have reached fullness - for those quickened by the Celestial glory. For those quickened by other glories, they will progress to the measure of that glory which they choose. This, I believe, is the eternal difference. Those in the Telestial will say, "good enough" before those in the Terrestrial, and those in the Terrestrial will say, "good enough" at some point, while those in the Celestial will not say, "good enough" - ever.)
Let's look at it from another angle:
A) Teach that there is no progress between kingdoms. Teach that it's the path we're on, not how far along we are, that matters. Lift and encourage others to reach for the Celestial Glory. This teaching does no harm, and does much good.
B) Teach that there is progress between kingdoms. The logical conclusion of that teaching is that we've got eternity to get it right, it can always be done later. Even if you are not the sort of person who will slack off at this doctrine, others might be. And while there will be many who won't slack at all, and more who will slack regardless, there may be some (and even 1 is enough) who are on the edge, and who, based on which of these two ideas is taught convincingly to them, will choose either to keep trying or to slack off.
I do not want to be held accountable for B.
*As I have said elsewhere, I'm OK to be wrong, but given that I came to my conclusion through the study of scriptures, and the logic of (A) and (B) above, I will not teach that (B) is a possibility until / unless it is revealed to be certain. And it's entirely possible that the scriptures are written in such a way, and further revelation withheld, for the express purpose of preventing people from making up more excuses to slack - but that's not my impression, so I'm sticking with (A).
This is a common belief in the church and to me it shows just exactly how flawed our doctrine has become. I find it interesting that our church has pretty much looked the other way when it comes to what the Book of Mormon actually teaches about the plan of salvation.
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6 hours ago, Vort said:
We have vastly different ideas about what constitutes "core doctrines".
Not really.
Too many people dismiss the core doctrines. No death before the fall is one such core doctrine that is dismissed because it doesnt agree with science. But, the implication is paramount. If death was occuring before the fall of Adam and Eve then our entire doctrine of the fall is incorrect. Entire chapters in our manuals would thus be wrong.
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Personally, I believe BRM's heresy #5 doctrine is flawed and he is perhaps wrong. Much of his opinions came to make up and add definition to church doctrine in our church that we still adhere to today. #5 heresy actually contradicts the endowment.
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Core doctrines we must take literal. No death before the fall? Yes. Adam and Eve in a literal garden? Yes. A global flood? Yes.
We certainly must remember that the very secular science that tells us these things are fairytails are the very same groups who say resurrection and immortality are also fairytails.
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20 minutes ago, An Investigator said:
No its I that should apologise, I just find it so difficult sometimes that my lovely husband who practically lives as a member won't join the Church, frustrating that he can't see the truth. I suppose here in lies the danger, I'm sure there are a plethora of organisations willing to assure me I can have what I want rather then trusting in God.
Be patient. Your husband will more than likely join the church of the firstborn, either here or in the next life and all will work out.
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11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:
I disagree.
The endowment starts in the telestial room which symbolises 5he world we now live in. It is thus further explained that the world we now live in is the Telestial kingdom. From that room we progress or are admitted into the Terrestrial kingdom and then from there through the veil and admitted into the Celestial kingdom. That is the endowment as explained.
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4 hours ago, An Investigator said:
Just wanting to hear some opinions on some things I have been pondering of late.
What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel? I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison?
I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose, what about people of other faiths, perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth? Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison?
There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation. What is everyones opinion on that?
People will continue to receive as many opportunities to accept the gospel on earth and in the spirit prison up to some point in the millennium before final judgment. Read D&C 138.
Progress between kingdoms? Thats exactly what we are doing right now. We are now in the Telestial kingdom and we will progress from this to the Terrestrial kingdom at the start of the millennium. Then, after the 1000 years are ended those found on the right hand of God will progress into the Celestial kingdom. This is the pattern and teaching of the temple endowment.
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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:
I understand, and for the most part agree with, what you are saying here. But let us be mindful of the very faithful Saints who also happen to lean liberal in their political views.
Yes. Its interesting that this is one of the only Mormon forums I havent been banned from. From reading the different posters it appears this forum is still controlled by conservative LDS (I dont mean "Republican" here but rather believers in old school traditional doctrinal beliefs) believers. You cant debate with liberal Mormon thinkers (its an oxymoron).
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The hardest people to argue with are exiting, or already exiting Mormons. They know all the sides and classic rebuttals to all the controversial topics. They love a platform to speak from and an audience who worships them. I have learned the hard way that you cannot discuss or debate these folks. I came and started posting on this forum because it appears there are still quite a lot of conservative LDS posters here who want a rational discussion. I know of two blog and forum hubs popular in the mormon blogosphere that are turning liberal and have been taken over by the liberal exiting Mormons and they will ban you if you make points they cant argue with. The fight is no longer the non LDS but the fringe Mormons in our midst. its practically impossible to not fight on enemy grounds with these folks, you just say your piece, end dialogue with them and move on.
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4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:
If a "gay gene" is discovered, would it not be part of the Fall. God cursed nature. Weeds, hurricanes, diseases and mutations developed, because of the curse.
If there were a "gay gene" could it be argued that their is also an "adulterer gene", a "liar gene", a "thief gene", a "murder gene", etc?
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Our sexual organs are to be used for both reproduction and to liven, uplift, and gratify/please the soul of ourselves and our spouse. The power of sex as it applies to binding two together is ordained of God. We were not made to be nonsensual creatures.
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I find it utterly ridiculous that LDS would even question the Lords stance on homosexuality. With so many witnesses by prophets and apostles in these latter days against homosexuality, for one to deny such is to deny everything about our religion and beliefs.
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6 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:
I think it depends on how you define mysteries. English is funny that way...so often we use words assuming everyone is in agreement as to what they mean, but in fact they can be talking about very different things. I find this especially true with words like forgiveness, feminism and of course, mysteries of God.
When I think of mysteries, I think of the "hidden treasures". An example would be when I asked the Lord "what lack I yet?" He made it clear that he wanted me to study the Atonement. I thought that was odd, at the time I was a young mom, a return missionary, I had listened to many lessons about the Atonement and taught people about it too. But I decided to try (what else could I do?) I searched and searched and didn't feel that I had discovered anything new. So I went back to my knees and asked, "Heavenly Father, I don't get it. What was it thou wanted me to understand about the Atonement?" That is when I really learned about the Atonement. It was amazing. That was a hidden treasure. A mystery---simply because most people don't see it. Like me, they think they already know all about "that". "That" could be whatever thing the Lord wants to tell us more about if we would simply ask Him. I say simply, but it's not really simple, we have to do our part, and sometimes we really have to stretch, but it's always worth it. And the first step--asking--IS simple.
True. Ironically, the mysteries of the gospel and of God are all principled or known by understanding the very small plain and simple things. Even something as simple as the phrase "he that overcometh" from the scriptures is a mystery but once understood is at its simplest of understanding. But, by understanding its depth, it reveals a whole new light on the gospel and the plan of salvation. Almost every repeated word and phrase in scripture is like that- you have your basic seminary answer that everyone has memorised, then you have the deeper understanding that unveils the mystery and a completely new understanding.
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Until one understands the small parts of the gospel he cannot understand the mysteries.
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2 hours ago, Traveler said:
It is important to understand the mission and purpose of the Messiah when we attempt to decipher his message. For example Jesus said he did not come into the world to condemn the world but that through him the world would be redeemed. In essence he did not come to tells us every little detail as to why the world is corrupt or to point out why the “ways” of the world are not profitable. He came into the world to tell us of the way of truth and light. He came to show us the way to exaltation and eternal life (Celestial).
Part of his message is that any deviation from the path of truth and light will result in a damnation or limit to what light and truth a person can enjoy in eternity. One element of eternal truth and light is the marriage of a man and a woman – this is the only eternal covenant by which mankind can have increase – or if you will – propagate the divine species of G-ds.
It does not appear to me that the priority of Jesus in his role as the Messiah is explain perversions – his role is to teach correct principles and have us govern ourselves. It is my personal belief that G-d will allow us to govern ourselves and indulge all manner of pleasures as we so desire or are inclined to find attraction to or orientation with. It is also my personal belief that any person by the sure force of their will can determine what they will be – including their sexual orientation – no one or any exterior thing can determine what a person is or will become – each person determines their path – this is the great gift of agency.
The Traveler
Yes, whereas it is the gift of agency to choose the right, it also is the mechanism that rewards or damns us in eternity. Agency allows us our own decision making ability. But choices according to ones own will and pleasure do not justify nor define morality. How one chooses sexual orientation is not a green light to eternal life. We cannot justify the want of the flesh over commandments. The commandment is that man should leave his mother and father to find their own help meet and mulitply and fill the earth. Their lawful wedding unite them as "one flesh". This is the command for man to pair with a woman not for men to be with other men or women to find other women.
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I can always tell the liberals on the internet forums, blogs, etc, when if I post something it gets censored or I get banned permanently. This is one of the few forums that hasnt censored me. I was beginning to think the Mormon blogosphere were all liberals!
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I personally believe each one of us holds valuable puzzle pieces to all the mysteries and that if we are provided the correct place and time to discuss that a lot of mysteries could be known. I dont think God really keeps us from knowing any mysteries but that access to them requires working together in harmony and doing whats right. Access to mysteries comes through generous charity towards others.
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22 minutes ago, Carborendum said:
Ok, I'll call a truce. But I do want to give you a heads up that such a website is probably considered an anti-Mormon website. And it is against forum rules to post links to anti-Mormon websites.
My only point was to show someone elses view on Satan which I concur with.
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12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:
And how do you feel about the other writings on that website. Do you believe that all the prophets from Brigham Young to Monson have all departed from the path that Joseph Smith set?
Look, Im not going to get in a debate over the content of the website. I am a firm believer in our church and hold fast to modern prophets. My point was in showing someone elses point of view regarding Satan. Thats all. The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis are in this same category of viewing someone elses views on Satan.
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:
This website purports to post the writings of Harry Edgar Baker. Here was a description of him.
This came from a website that listed the "founder" of the LDS church as 'Brigham young'. So, I don't know how dependable it is. But what is "unauthorized revelation" supposed to mean?
If it were true revelation then it is authorized by God. What other authorization is required? I believe it would be more accurate to say "false revelation". The fact is that I read most of the two revelations he supposedly received. I got bored. There was nothing there that isn't known to Latter-Day Saints. And other stuff was just fluff that didn't mean anything. So, I'm not sure what these people who post it are trying to do.
Then we go down further and find out that it is a website designed to destroy testimony of the church. They claim that today's church is fallen and is no longer led by an inspired man. What are we to make of such a website?
I never said it was scripture. I said it was an interesting read and had a few gems in it that I thought were true. Even Mark Twain wasnt a prophet yet had a few interesting gems himself.
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The world that then was, was destroyed by the flood. Its thus irrelevent because the entire topography of the land was destroyed. The geology of the earth went under drastic changes. Nowhere in scripture does it define where Eden was.
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I think Lucifer was disciplined to begin with but then sought for evilness. He got lazy and lustful for power, the same as all evil.
A good read, although not scripture, speaks a lot of Lucifers fall. Its called "the new revelations". I will try to find the link.
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5 hours ago, Traveler said:
But with a mob the deeper you get into the hierarchy, the more those pressing and moving the mob know that the lies and deceit are lies and deceit. I am not sure that such lies and deceit would work in the presents of the light of truth that surrounds G-d. That in the presents of G-d all lies and deceit would be obvious to everyone. And even more I would see our loving Father sitting down individually with each son and daughter revealing in truth all the consequences that will follow.
Thus I cannot fathom that there would never come a time when those that follow Lucifer would think – “This is not what I want – I am so sorry that things have turned out this way – I wish I could go back, have a do over and change my mistakes. Rather Satan and his followers would not change or want to change anything – fully knowing what follows in all of eternity.
With all I understand of the mercy of G-d – I cannot understand that there would ever not be help for anyone that would change what evil they have done. But I still cannot understand why Satan and his followers would not ever want to change anything of the Hell that has resulted from their poor choices.
The Traveler
Ever wonder why most prison gang members in maximum security prisons are content and unwilling to change in the face of such misery and captivity?
The path to the darkside is fraught with such self deception that one becomes lost to truth they inflict on themselves. This is why Lucifer knew not the mind of God. He was sure he is right, but its all a lie. It just leads to captivity.
The study of evil has led me to know that the temptations become greater and greater as one sinks deeper into darkness. Each new desire becomes more immoral while at the same time looks better to fulfill self grandeurism, lust and pride. The alure to this darkness becomes a deceitful trap that further entangles one into chains and captivity until agency is no longer available. An analogy of this is a drug addict who gets in so deep that at some point they not only are willing to sell themselves for the drug but also forfeit and endanger their own children. I have seen this firsthand where a close family member decided to forfeit their rights to marriage and children for one more high.
Entire wars such as WW2 were fought over pride. So dark did the Nazi regime become that they were willing to trade their souls for the idealism of grandeur. Satan was made manifest in them. We need look no further than evil in the world to know Satan and his angels firsthand, they are the same. The question back to you is why do so many choose immorality, lust, and pride when true happiness in doing the right is so apparent and readily available? Perhaps it makes it easier to understand why so many chose to follow Satan to begin with.
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On 10/28/2016 at 4:02 PM, Traveler said:
The problem I have with this thinking is that I have a hard time with the possibility that G-d would cast out a third part of heaven under the condition that they were lied to, deceived and did not really know what they were doing. I am more inclined to think that Satan and his followers all knew what they were choosing and exactly what the result of their choice would be – and they chose it because they actually desired it. But to be honest – I also have difficulty with why or how an intelligent being would knowing and in the full light of truth – choose evil and darkness.
Every time I try to put this puzzle together – I am left with the conclusion that there are just too many pieces missing for me to announce – I have much of any idea what is going on. Sometimes – with this and a great many things; I am inclined that those that think they know the answers – do not really understand the questions.
Please understand I am not trying to be critical – just that I cannot make sense of it.
The Traveler
Lets liken it to a mob. The deeper you get into the heirarchy of a mob the more lies and deceit you have. Everyone is being led on and lied to in some degree. Tgis in turn leads to more lies and deception and pretty soon everyones watching their own backs. Evil people really have one desire and its selfish control over another. They will thus use each other to get their own gains. Organized crime (like the Gadianton robbers) most closely resembles how Satan works. Even though a 1/3 the host of heaven followed Satan, they were all in turn part of the lies and deceit themselves, part of lies and deceit above and below them.
I have had dreams about going to hell and seeing Satans kingdom. It most closely resembles gangs and organized crime rings. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the greatest evil spoken of in the BOM was the Gadianton robbers and their secret combinations. At various times they made up vastly large poulations. Thus it makes sense that such a large part joined Satan in the beginning- the promise of power over another and enslaving them was too tempting. That was a major drive of the Lamanites for most of their spoken existance.
Do you take all the Old Testament stories as literal?
in LDS Gospel Discussion
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We cant be sure of anything Satan says, he is a liar. The scriptures are clear that there was no death amongst any of the creations until after the fall. So, your argument is against scripture.