ProDeo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_means_never_having_to_say_you're_sorry Plagiarism

"Love means never having to say you're sorry." -- Ali MacGraw to Ryan O'Neal in Love Story (1970)

Okay old - Love is serving the other. new - Love is serving the other from the goodness of the heart. But wait, what to think of ? John 14:21 - Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. John 15:14 - You are my friends if you do what I command you. No sentiments or emotions involved. But I get what you are trying to say and In my country the Catholics have this lovely saying - It's more blissful to give than to receive.

Yep. Or in a one-liner, Love is serving the other. Jesus live in a nutshell.

About the part I bolded, I think He could have done it in a different (less convincing) way.

Not if you read the Fall story in Gen 3 as an event in Heaven or Paradise where eternal beings lived in direct communication with God. On a bad day these eternal creatures were tempted by the (fallen) devil and a great part of them were lured into his rebellion. As a result God banned those creates from Paradise to..... Earth. And we are here to learn about good and evil, what one act of disobedience may cause and to find our way back to heaven through Christ. Christ being the Husband willing to give His life for His adulterous bride.

I am interested in your paper.

My greatests blessings came from the Lord.

Okay, then let's do this in a different way. I asked 2 questions which IMO can not be answered from Scripture and I think both questions are related to the OP, the subject at hand. [Q1] - why God did not sent the devil immediately into the LOF but allowed the devil to do so much harm? [Q2] - why the need for Jesus, can God not just forgive us instead of sacrificing his own Son taking a lot of pain and suffering upon Himself? Both decisions of God had a very deep impact so I am confident God had very good reasons for both of them. Can you answer the questons?

First of all I specifically said: speculation, meaning that I don't make any claim. Having said that it's not a wild guess. It's based on the knowledge that the destination of the devil is the LOF (Lake of Fire). And so I asked myself the question why God did not sent the devil immediately into the LOF but allowed the devil to do so much harm and I realized that (IMO) that is an important question that (as far as I can tell) can not be answered from Scripture. Looking for answers the notion that satan was doing in what he excels -- accusing -- (Rev 12:10, the story of Job) God being unjust, unloving, unmerciful etc. is perhaps (emphasis added) the reason why God delayed his punishment to take away any doubt creatues might develop, or already had developed and proof to all His creatures His love, mercy, by the sacrifice of the most precious God has, His only begotten Son. I also specifically said I was reasoning from the question why the need for Jesus, can God not forgive us without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? I think that's an important question too.

Excellent question. Allow me to speculate. from the perspective: why this way? why not just forgive people who ask for forgiveness? My speculation (for what it's worth) is that God wanted to kick the devil into hell when he rebelled. The heavenly creatures who never experienced sin, didn't know the difference between good and evil because they only experienced good didn't understand the harsh measure and maybe the devil put oil on the fire and accused God of being unloving and unmerciful creating doubt. And so God said, alright I will show my creatures my love, that I am merciful, that my decision to kick the devil into hell is (was) just and I as proof I will give up the most precious I have, my Son Jesus. So in theory it is possible to reformulate your question as follows - My inquiry for the non-LDS is more of, why was it necessary for God to use the that God used the atonement of Christ to save us?

Small correction, not perfect, but very good per Gen 1:31. I understand very good as fit for the purpose it was created.

The problem with Calvinism is that they have taken a handful of passages and built their theory around it ignoring the rest of the Scriptures. Also, if predestination (as they interpret it) is true then so is double predestination and I know only one (consistent) Calvinist who was willing to admit that this is the logical consequence of his belief, the rest (and quite some) keep denying it. To use an analogy imagine 200 refugees drowning in the Mediterranean Sea. And there is a ship nearby and the captain having 500+ life buoys on board only throws 20 life buoys to 20 specific people and let the rest drown. When the captain is asked why he saved those 20 the silence is deafening, no why is given. The god of Calvin is like this captain. The captain could save all, but he did not. Calvinists (most without realizing it) have put God's loving character on trial. BTW, I am not a scientist but like you I have been working in the AI field for 20+ years. I guess you held me for a Calvinist ?

Yeah, probably the Jews of that time were influenced by Hellenistic views, Plato and friends. They believed in pre-existence. As far as I know Plato and the Stoics were the first ones who came up with the theory of pre-existence, or they documented it as first ones.

Well, you are certainly the first person who takes it with an open mind Basically yes to the list you produced (the main concept) although I don't have all the answers. Also note that if one is a believer of the inerrancy of the Scriptures my hypothesis can be right into the trash because Gen 5 leaves little doubt A&E are (were) historic persons. As to your points, questions: I don't know if satan is a different species, it's an important issue of course but not relevant to the hypothesis. Same with satan being cast out of heaven and when that moment was Revelations speaks about. For instance, we read in Job he still had access to heaven. Not essential to the hypothesis but there is nothing against the interpretation that 2/3 of the heavenly creatures (intelligences) remained loyal. Maybe there is some truth in the Jewish belieF of the Guf, see for instance the WIKI, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guf Same question as why He created us As for something more thoughtful I am inclined to think it has to do with God's choice to give his creatures free will. Free will tends to go into every direction and sooner or later sin will rear its ugly head. Also that, if free will rules out sin is it still free will then? I stop as well, posting is already way too long.

I now see it would have been better to post my initial question in that particular section of the board? I can give you my perspective on pre-mortal life of course ≠ to LDS. We all lived with God in harmony and peace innocent like A&E. On a bad day (so to speak) a high ranked angel we now call the devil rebelled against God and lured us into his rebellion in the same way as in Gen 3 but then on a massive scale. My hypothesis is that what we read in Gen 3 (the fall) actually is a narrative of what happened in heaven. So in my hypothesis there is only one Fall, not two. And that's why we need redemption, experience both good and evil, learn, and most of all remain obedient. One other thing that led me into this line of reasoning is the observation that everyone is destined to die, even innocent babies die, the penalty of sin is death, thus even the baby did sin, not in this life (I am not a fan of Augustine of Hippo) but in the presence of the Lord, likely because he/she was lured into the satanic rebellion. I will follow your link, thanks for pointing out.

Yep, and the different path would mean, as I see it, to remain undecided on the issue in question, which I do. In the meantime (through the years) I have quite some collection gathered of undecided issues I am not aware I am constantly asking for proof, it's more asking for evidence (hints, thoughts, logic, general feedback) in the hope a light goes on. It's my usual (and normal to me) debating style and during my dwelling in several Bible fora since 2008 you are the first one to notice, or to make it a point.

You are right, Hebrew, not Greek, my bad

Sure. Life (and Christain life in particular) is one big chain of experiences and sometimes you make mistakes and sometimes one even blunders. It's from those blunderrs you learn the most. And I learned from my blunder that what I believed about X and Y as 100% inspired by the Holy Spirit actually was mixed with my selfish desires. There was no fun in that realization but it was a big lesson. And so I became careful. After that lesson (as far as I know) I never said things like "The Lord led me into ...." or "I feel I received this from the Lord" again, not even to my inner self. As in this case it's my desire that pre-mortal life is true because (in my understanding) it fits so much better and then seeking God's guidance in prayer because you want it to be true has all the ingredients of self deception. As long as I realize the danger and keep alert I am safe.

Ok and thanks. Clear. On the blue - so many truth-seeking Christians (me included) do that and apparently receive different answers. In my early Christian years I believed God led me into doctrine X and doctrine Y and then years later I had to conclude both were wrong and that God didn't led me at all. Right now I am leaning to the doctrine of pre-mortal life and seeking His guidance but I won't make the mistake again to say God led me into it. It could be very well the case, but I do not know that, it's not a fact. It's were I draw the line. Concerning Joseph Smith, he is the real deal regarding my initial question, true prophet or not. Same with the OT and NT, inspired, or not.

In Greek God is called "Elohim" in Gen 1 and "Jehovah" in Gen 2. How does this fit into your theory?

In context (v18) it's about Jesus divinity. 18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 19 So Jesus said to them,Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.

Methinks it's all about him. Eze 13:9 - My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Deut 18:20 - But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. Stepping onto God's throne and speak in His name is a big deal and we are ordered to test the prophets and their prophecies.

Amen. And thank you

If you say so Talking about the idea of pre-mortal life, for you a truth, me leaning to it, so let's talk with the LDS folks, Was that not clear in the mean time? I think asking why there is no shred of evidence of many LDS teachings in the OT and NT was (and still is) a reasonable question. Allow me to clarify, I came here to talk about one LDS subject only. That side roads are taken is unavoidable since things are connected but I had (and still don't have) no intention to lean to (or even consider) other LDS doctrines. I find your (or better Mr. Smith) views fascinating but I think they are way out of line with the Bible. Having said that, it's true what you stated above "We've been very accommodating", you are nice Christ-like people but reading between the lines of your post I get the impression it's time for me to leave and actually that's not such a bad idea because (as I see it) everything has been said by now. Not sure if this is my last posting on this topic, I noticed there are new replies, but if it is my last post let me thank you all for your kindness and willingness to hear me out.