Mountaingirl

You know, I am coming to that same conclusion right now. I came here to try to help my testimony, but it did the opposite. Maybe God doesn't want me in this church.

Good question Shell!

Great, now it won't let me post. Why? Argh, I had the whole thing written but it told me my response was less than three characters, but it was definitely more. Oh well, I will type it this way. Okay, again... as I have mentioned before... I feel that I should have been told the entire story about Joseph Smith translating the plates with a stone in a hat from the beginning. This would have saved me all this aggravation. Anyone in a leadership or teaching position in the church should be giving the right and true story in my opinion. You keep asking me how I was lied to and by who... and I have told you over and over again. I am listening, are you? I have answered that question over and over again... respectfully, again... I am listening. You might not consider it a lie, but I do. Hence my problem. You guys have tried to help me, and I have been nothing but pleasant and respectful. To assume that I am here for any other motive is nothing short of insulting and judgmental. I don't know you, you don't know me. I was very happy to be here until my moral ground was questioned.

Wow, you don't know my motives... why in the world would you say something like that? Really? I came here to talk about these issues with people who are LDS and find some answers, now I feel like I am being attacked because I am voicing my opinions and questions. The reason the translation is important to me is because I wasn't told the truth about it. It's not okay that I wasn't told the truth. I wasn't. It's important that the church I belong to tell me the truth. Why is that so hard to understand and believe? It's not a ridiculous facade. It's the truth. I wasn't given the whole story, and I have issue with that. Why are you so angry by my question? It's important to me, and if you don't understand it or find it silly just ignore me... but please don't make snap judgments about me or my personal character. I have been nothing but purely honest here. It's insulting to be told otherwise. Edited to add that I took a leap of faith by coming here and being open to talk about these issues. You are assuming too much. I might not agree with some of the things you guys say, but I have never once judged anyone else... why do you feel the need to do that to me?

Wow, a year ago and that very letter could have come out of my head and keyboard. It's amazing how my outlook has changed.

Like I have said before many times, I respect your opinion, but I disagree. The church does list all the aid it gives out, BUT it doesn't list how much money comes in through tithing and where that money goes. I think everyone would be shocked to see how much money that actually is. Billions and billions of dollars easy. If they do so much good and give out so much money to charity, what is the harm in showing the financial records? If they have nothing to hide, why are they hiding it? I don't know for fact that they are hiding anything bad, but the 2 billion dollar mall money could be better spent elsewhere in my opinion. I am not saying that you are being duped! Please don't put words in my mouth, I respect your opinion. I am just saying that there are things in the church that are bothering me a great deal and this is one of them. As for the "anti-Mormon" websites I again disagree. Just because someone has a different opinion about something Mormon doesn't make them "anti-Mormon." That term is used way too frequently in my opinion. There are many true things on those sites, and the historical records prove them. If anything, they are "pro-true-history sites" I don't know the websites you have been on, and you don't know the websites I have been on, so lets not assume anything, okay?

I could definitely show you quotes that would change your mind... I won't unless you want me to. If the prophet is the only person who can see and speak with (and for) God, why wouldn't he make it clear his position about racism? God wouldn't want people to suffer because of the color of their skin... He would put a stop to it immediately, at least in my opinion. We all know now that skin color depends on where you were from originally. The closer to the equator you were, the closer to the sun. The closer to the sun you were, the darker the pigment in your skin to protect you from the sun. The curse of Cain story is nothing short of harmful, racist, and untrue. How could a prophet of God, who speaks and talks with and for Him, say those things? It makes no sense to me. I can't get over it no matter how hard I try.

Feelings can't prove something true or false. When Brigham Young and many other made racist comments I am sure people were filled with the Holy Ghost's warm fuzzy feeling, right? I mean, knowing that the man in front of you is a prophet, you are probably just filled with the spirit of the holy ghost just being in his presence. It would be hard to tell someone sitting next to you that you disagree with something that just came out of the prophet's mouth? I have talked with many people about this issue, including my bishop, missionaries, and my own family members and friends... it's frustrating that no one sees my point. Warm fuzzy Holy Ghost feelings can't prove anything to me... they just can't. I get warm fuzzy feelings all the time, and sometimes when I get them it has nothing to do with church or it's teachings. How to I know which is the holy ghost and which is just a warm feeling? Again, it's circular logic to me. Many people have said the same thing to me, and I respect it.

I have the same question. :) Logically I know that when people say, "I know the church is true" they are speaking of the emotions they feel when they are bearing witness to the truthfulness. However, there is no proof one way or the other for any church, and that is fact. Emotions can't prove something true or false. A few weeks ago a family member asked me to share my failing testimony with him. I told him I couldn't tell him I "knew" the church was true, I told him that I once "felt" the church was true, but my questions are not being answered. He couldn't answer them either and told me I needed more faith. How can I have faith in something that has lied to me (in my eyes)? In this sense, what is true for one person isn't true for another. If it works for you and makes you happy it's probably true. If it causes confusion and hard feelings like my case it probably isn't. It's a matter of perception.

I don't think I SHOULD get over it. It shouldn't have happened, and I sure don't want my future kids to have to deal with the same thing. It's definitely not the same thing as Santa Clause but I understand the analogy. I cannot get past the racist comments past prophets, apostles, and other leaders have made. These are men of God, why would they make such comments? I talked to a missionary about this, and he told me that they were speaking as men and not for God. How do you know when they are speaking for God? How do you know? The missionary went on to tell me that this is what the scriptures were for. If you felt the need to check on something a leader, apostle or prophet has said you should check your scriptures and pray. That is a kicker for me because what are the scriptures but a written record of prophets? It's circular logic... I just go in circles.

I was shown pictures like this in Primary and in Church: I am aware that this is just an artists rendition of what really happened, and the painting itself isn't considered literature... but I was told that the translation happened something LIKE this. Maybe a partition between the two, so the scribe couldn't see the plates because that was forbidden. The actual translation looked something like this: Why wasn't I taught the truth? I was upset when I saw the South Park episode showing Joseph Smith translating the plates with his head buried in a hat, but it was actually correct. There are tons of statements backing it up. This is another reason why I feel that I was lied to. Just so you know, I am not a "Mormon Basher." I am trying desperately to hold onto my testimony after learning these things, and I thought coming here and having conversation would help. My entire family is Mormon, and I used to agree with everything they believed in. I am not bashing anyone, just looking for answers. Sorry the photos were so large, I tried to make them smaller but I can't figure out how!

Nope. I am not talking about the Urim and Thummin. Here are some quotes from people who knew Joseph at the time of the translation: Emma Hale Smith, Joseph's wife, was the first person to serve as his scribe. Here is her testimony as recounted to her son Joseph Smith III: "In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us." David Whitmer was one of the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon. The majority of the translation work took place in the Whitmer home. "I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."4 "I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation"5 Isaac Hale, the father of Emma Hale Smith, stated in an 1834 affidavit: "The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with a stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods."8

I would also like to add one thing that is purely my opinion so take it for what it's worth: I will be completely honest in saying that I don't know what I believe in anymore. I will be completely honest in saying that I feel that I have been misled by the people who were supposed to teach me the truth. Now that I found out the real history and the real truth including the ban on blacks holding the priesthood (this was never once mentioned to me... never!) Many people say that when God commands you to do something, you should do it with no questions asked. If God were to come down and ask me to kill my best friend and roommate, would I? Probably not. Why would God do that? Common sense and logic tells me he wouldn't. He wouldn't do a lot of the things that he supposedly "commanded." Again, this post will probably be picked apart and poked at, but it's just my opinion. I don't feel the ban on blacks (for example) was commanded by God, but the prophet made that decision as a man and then it was never talked about again. Some things in the church's history make me cringe.

It might not be relevant, but it's important to know what the former prophets taught... all of it. It's a part of our church's history and it's being completely glossed over because we don't agree with it anymore. I think the reason they are glossing over these issues is because it makes the former prophets seem like they made tons of mistakes and were therefore not really prophets. This would cause a lot of problems with potential converts to the church, as well as members who find they don't agree with some of the things the prophets taught. The only problem with this is that not teaching the full history isn't telling the complete truth... at least in my opinion. If I were taught about the issues I have now while I was growing up and had calm conversations about them while I was allowed to make up my own mind I might feel differently about the church now. It's not helping anyone by keeping things buried.

I don't feel that I am complaining. I am just voicing my opinion like the rest of you. I have been a member of the church my entire life, and my testimony is failing me because of these issues. I thought this would be a good place to go to talk about this with other LDS people, but if it sounds like I am complaining maybe I should leave. I have concerns over these things, and I have been raised to stand up for what I believe in. The morals that my Mom and Dad gave me won't let me pay tithing right now because I don't believe its going where it should go. I do know the church says the money for the mall didn't come from tithing, but from other businesses they own and other holdings. I have done my homework to the point that I could probably list the people who said it. My point is still this: Why in the world is it okay to spend 2 billion dollars renovating a shopping mall in Salt Lake City while there are so many people starving, homeless, and in need of aid somewhere? That money could be put to better use, and I stand by that opinion and I will forever. We don't need a shopping mall, we need to help our fellow man.

I can identify with everything you said! By saying 'Joseph's wife (singular) Emma.' I feel they were lying to me and glossing over the real story. I have stopped going to church, and I am now what I consider a "pet project" for my fellow relief society friends. I know they mean well, and I love them... they just don't understand where I am coming from. When I tried to explain myself to one of my friends, he told me I was reading "anti" material and that I was being led away by the devil himself. I had to laugh when I told him that my sources were good, and many of the facts can be checked out on the church's own websites. Confused and Deceived... indeed.

Again, I agree with you 100% These women were definitely telling the truth, no question.

When I was growing up it was never talked about. It was never mentioned, and the fact that they didn't tell the complete story makes me feel lied to. I knew about polygamy, but I didn't know about the ages of some of his brides, or that he was marrying women who were already married to other (living) men. I was always taught that not telling the complete truth is the same as lying.

I take issue with the same thing, you are not alone. I have been doing major research lately, and my opinion of the church history I was taught while growing up has changed. I wasn't told the truth by many of my leaders/teachers. If you go to the LDS' family website you will see that Joseph was married and sealed to women who were already married to living men. "If it was in direct contradiction to what God has told us so why would anyone believe ANYTHING he said?" I wish I had the answer for that, because my testimony has certainly vanished since doing research... I feel lied to.

I know the church doesn't force people to pay tithing, I didn't mean to imply that. :) It's just that your temple recommend depends on it, as well as other rules you have to follow like the word of wisdom. As I mentioned before, I respect your opinion and I used to agree with it. I donate money to charity instead of pay tithing because I know where my money is going. The charity will show me their financial statements and the church doesn't. The shopping mall in Salt Lake does bother me a lot because there are starving people in the world that money could be helping... but its going to a shopping plaza instead. It makes no sense to me. I can't agree with it. I find that I have more faith now, I see beauty in more things and I am enjoying life more. That is just me... if Mormonism works for you (or any other religion) than good for you! I really mean it.

I understand where you are coming from, and I respect it. I used to agree with you 100% but my opinion has changed. I respectfully disagree with the statement that people who don't pay tithing (to any church) are robbing God. Personally, I find that more good comes out of money given directly to charity than to a church organization. I can see where my money is helping, and they show their financial records to prove it. I don't think that tithing to a church is necessary when you are doing everything you can to help other people in the world. I know that many people say that they are more blessed after paying tithing, but these blessings probably would have happened even if they hadn't paid. God's love for us and his blessings for us don't depend on tithing. Just my opinion.

Good to meet you Alaskangirl, I can understand where you are coming from, and I respect that. It just bothers me when any religion tells you how much you HAVE to give in order to receive blessings. For instance, if you don't pay your 10% in the Mormon Church you don't get a temple recommend. No temple recommend, no temple blessings and risk of losing any temple blessings. It's my opinion only, but I feel that this is wrong. Tithing should be something that people want to give, and do so out of the kindness of their own hearts and souls... not out of fear of losing their blessings. I also find that many people that don't have a lot of money could use that money for food and other things they might need. God would want these people to take care of their families, right? At least I think so. I am not putting the Mormon Church down, I just disagree with the way tithing is done. The church has billions of dollars to spend on a shopping mall in Salt Lake City, and still asks 10% of a young family's paycheck... it bugs me. I hold no hard feelings for the church or the people who believe in it. I was there once.

In my humble opinion, one of the reasons people refer to Mormonism as a cult is because of the secret nature of the temple. Yes, I know... "Sacred, not secret" but people outside of the church don't see it that way.

I don't believe that I have to give money to the Mormon church to be giving back to God. You can give back to God in many ways, by donating your time to worthy causes, by volunteering to help someone who needs it. Giving back to God doesn't really have to mean with money.

I disagree. Thats all.