DrewM

I think there is some strong evidence of early Christians possessing secret/sacred ordinances that were had for the mature members of the Church. I've gathered some information, am gathering more, and will eventually also put this into a paper format. First, to understand, you need to know what some words mean. Mystery: derived from Latin mysterium, from Greek musterion (plural musteria), meaning “secret rite” or “secret teaching.” From myein "to close, shut," a reference to secrecy or that only initiates were allowed to observe and participate in rituals. (Harper, Douglas, ed. (2001), "Mystery," Online Etymology Dictionary, Lancaster, Pa.: etymonline.com) Gnosis: “knowledge” usually received by secret teaching. Teleoi: from Greek telos meaning “the finished [ones],” “completed [ones],” “initiated [ones],” “the mature [ones],” “perfect [ones],” ("perfect" fr. Latin per “through” and facio “to make.” To do completely, to finish). Wisdom: Sofia (Greek), usually a secret or special knowledge. Paul speaks of a "hidden wisdom." New Testament Unto you it is given to know the mysteries [Greek: musteria] of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given (Revised Version. Matt. 13:11) And I, brethren, when I came unto you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the mystery [musterion] of God. For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect [teleoi]: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, which are coming to naught: but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery [musterion], even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory… And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ. I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able to bear it: nay, not even now are ye able; for ye are yet carnal...Let a man so account of us, as of ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries [musteria] of God. (Revised Version. 1 Cor. 1:1-2, 6-7; 3:1-3; 4:1). For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food. For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. But solid food is for fullgrown men [teleoi], even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil (Revised Version. Hebrews 5:12-14). Ante-Nicene Fathers For a mystery ought to be most faithfully concealed and covered, especially by us, who bear the name of faith. (Lactantius Ante-Nicene Fathers 7:221) And Peter said: “We remember that our Lord and Teacher, commanding us, said, ‘Keep the mysteries for me and the sons of my house.’ Wherefore also He explained to His disciples privately the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. But to you who do battle with us, and examine into nothing else but out statements, whether they be true or false, it would be impious to state the hidden truths.” (Peter, Clementine Homilies, Ante-Nicene Fathers 8:336) For the most sublime truths are best honoured by means of silence. (Peter, Clementine Recognitions, Ante-Nicene Fathers. 8:83) But if [simon Magus] remains wrapped up and polluted in those sins which are manifestly such, it does not become me to speak to him at all of the more secret and sacred things of divine knowledge (gnosis), but rather to protest and confront him, that he cease from sin, and cleanse his actions from vice. But if he insinuate himself, and lead us on to speak what he, while he acts improperly, ought not to hear, it will be our part to parry him cautiously. For not to answer him at all does not seem proper, for the sake of the hearers, lest haply they may think that we decline the contest through want of ability to answer him, and so their faith may be injured through their misunderstanding of our purpose. (Peter, Clementine Recognitions, Ante-Nicene Fathers. 8:98) But the same writer [Clement of Alexandria] in the seventh book of the same work, relates also the following things concerning him: “The Lord after his resurrection imparted knowledge (gnosis) to James the Just and to John and Peter, and they imparted it to the rest of the apostles, and the rest of the apostles to the seventy, of whom Barnabas was one...” (Eusebius. The Church History of Eusebius 2.1.4. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series Two. 1:104) The science of nature, then, or rather observation, as contained in the gnostic tradition according to the rule of truth, depends on the discussion concerning cosmogony, ascending thence to the department of theology. (Clement of Alexandria. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series 2. 8:42) Wherefore also all men are His; some through knowledge (gnosis), and others not yet so; and some as friends, some as faithful servants, some as servants merely. This is the Teacher, who trains the Gnostic by mysteries, and the believer by good hopes, and the hard of heart by corrective discipline through sensible operation. (Clement of Alexandria, Ante-Nicene Fathers. 2:524) [T]he mysteries are not exhibited incontinently to all and sundry, but only after certain purifications and previous instructions. (Clement of Alexandria, Ante-Nicene Fathers. 2:449) Now, in answer to such statements, we say that it is not the same thing to invite those who are sick in soul to be cured, and those who are in health to the knowledge and study of divine things. We, however, keeping both these things in view, at first invite all men to be healed, and exhort thosewho are sinners to come to the consideration of the doctrines which teach men not to sin…And when those who have been turned towards virtue have made progress, and have shown that they have been purified by the word, and have led as far as they can a better life, then and not before do we invite them to participation in our mysteries. “For we speak wisdom among them that are perfect.”…[W]hoever is pure not only from all defilement, but from what are regarded as lesser transgressions, let him be boldly initiated in the mysteries of Jesus, which properly are made known only to the holy and the pure…He who acts as initiator, according to the precepts of Jesus, will say to those who have been purified in heart, “He whose soul has, for a long time, been conscious of no evil, and especially since he yielded himself to the healing of the word, let such an one hear the doctrines which were spoken in private by Jesus to His genuine disciples.”… [Celsus] does not know the difference between inviting the wicked to be healed, and initiating those already purified into the sacred mysteries! Not to participation in mysteries, then, and to fellowship in the wisdom hidden in a mystery, which God ordained before the world to the glory of His saints, do we invite the wicked man, and the thief, and the housebreaker, and the poisoner, and the committer of sacrilege, and the plunderer of the dead, and all those others whom Celsus may enumerate in his exaggerated style, but such as these we invite to be healed…God the Word was sent, indeed, as a physician to sinners, but as a teacher of divine mysteries to those who are already pure and who sin no more. (Origen, Ante-Nicene Fathers. 4:487-489) In these circumstances, to speak of the Christian doctrine as a secret system, is altogether absurd. But that there should be certain doctrines, not made known to the multitude, which are (revealed) after the exoteric ones have been taught, is not a peculiarity of Christianity alone, but also of philosophic systems, in which certain truths are exoteric and others esoteric. (Origen. Ante-Nicene Fathers 4:399) Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or publicly enjoined which are preserved in the Church we possess derived from written teaching; others we have received delivered to us “in a mystery” by the tradition of the Apostles... (Basil of Caesarea, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series 2. 8:40-41) In the same manner the Apostles and Fathers who laid down laws for the Church from the beginning thus guarded the awful dignity of the mysteries in secrecy and silence, for what is bruited abroad random among the common folk is no mystery at all. This is the reason for our tradition of unwritten precepts and practices, that the knowledge of our dogmas may not become neglected and contemned by the multitude through familiarity. “Dogma” and “Kerugma” are two distinct things; the former is observed in silence; the latter is proclaimed to all the world. (Basil of Caesarea, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series 2. 8:42) We ought not then to parade the holy mysteries before the uninitiated, lest the heathen in their ignorance deride them, and the Catechumens being over-curious be offended. (Athanasius, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series 2. 4:106) But first I wish to remind you who are initiated of the response, which on that evening they who introduce you to the mysteries bid you make; and then I will also explain the saying of Paul: so this likewise will be clearer to you; we after all the other things adding this which Paul now saith [in 1 Corinthians 15:29]. And I desire indeed expressly to utter it, but I dare not on account of the uninitiated; for these add a difficulty to our exposition, compelling us either not to speak clearly or to declare unto them the ineffable mysteries. Nevertheless, as I may be able, I will speak as through a veil. (John Chrysostom. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series One. 12:244)

You might want to print two pages on each page. :) It's kind of long.

Dear friends, I've attached a paper I wrote a while back. If all goes well, it will eventually be a chapter in a book that compares early Christianity to modern Christianity. Let me know what you think.

Montana, I believe, lets people get a license at 15. Or is it Wyoming?

Not to sound sexist, but I think your wife should support you as the head of the household if you feel uncomfortable about what is going on with your daughter.

I do not believe that modern revelation can contradict ancient revelation, at least in areas of eternal doctrines. Policies change (blacks and the priesthood), practices change (Word of Wisdom), but eternal principles and doctrines (the nature of God, what one must do to be saved, etc) never change. I do not agree with the opening statement you quoted from some other LDS.

Well, ultimately it's up to you to figure out. Seek inspiration from God. Best wishes!

Thank you for serving our country. God bless you in this. I haven't served. So, I'm not sure how valuable my opinion is, but I would say you should do whatever will draw the least amount of attention due to the sacred nature of the garments. Obviously, the church wouldn't produce brown/green garments if they were not as useful as the others. God bless you and your family.

That is a great scripture. Thanks for sharing.

Breezy, Welcome to the boards. The Trinity as defined in most mainstream Christian creeds, is that there is only one eternal God. This God is somehow mysteriously also three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. He is all three at the same time. It would be as though you were Breezy, April, and Sunny all at the same time. God, therefore, is not the Father alone, not the Son alone, nor the Holy Ghost alone, but he is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all at the same time. Don't worry if it doesn't make sense. It's not supposed to. The Godhead as taught by LDS is that God the Father is supreme. The Son, Jesus Christ, is a totally separate individual and being from the Father. So is the Holy Ghost. It is not one God or one Being who is manifested in three persons, but is in fact three beings or even three Gods who are one in purpose, power, etc. These three beings are one God in the sense of being one in power, purpose, might, etc, but they are in fact three beings just as much as you and I are separate beings. Hope this helps.

Someone made a comment on the thread that got me in truoble before asking me why I said something. I briefly told them but said I couldn't stay on the thread because I had been threatened if I stayed. I came back the next day and was banned. I've never taught anything against the Church, any of its leaders, nor attacked anyone individually. One of the mods just didn't like my views and wanted me silenced. It was just suggested that I post it there because such things get more attention there. I don't think it is controversial or anything. I agree. That's because of the nature of the boards, who visits, the topics, etc. Well, Christ clearly suffered in both places in our behalf. I wish I could have read the conversation. Isn't that irratating? It gets worse when the person who disagrees with you is a mod so you get banned because they cannot give any reason for their views. :) Mormonism is true. God lives. Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind, planet earth, and all that is in her. Joseph Smith conversed with God and is a prophet. Like Brigham Young, I feel like shouting hallelujah all the time when I consider the blessing it is to know these things.

Yeah. I ticked one of the more feminist leaning mods off. Now, however, I'm permanently banned. Oh well.

That is fairly accurate. That is not correct. We believe that God the Father is the Father of Jesus physically, but how that happened is not revealed. Mary was a Virgin when Jesus was born according to the Bible and the Book of Mormon In a sense. I would recommend you read: http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ_is_t...rother_of_Satan

They banned me. You're more than welcome to share it if you'd like. Let me know how it goes.

Here are a couple of great examples from the Book of Mormon Mosiah 3:18-19: (Men will drink damnation to their souls unless) (a) They HUMBLE themselves (b ) and become as little CHILDREN (c ) believing that salvation is in the ATONING BLOOD OF CHRIST; (d) for the NATURAL MAN (e) is an enemy of GOD (f) and HAS BEEN from the fall of Adam (f') and WILL BE forever and ever (e') unless he yieldeth to the HOLY SPIRIT (d') and putteth off the NATURAL MAN (c') and becometh a saint through the ATONEMENT OF CHRIST (b') and becometh as a CHILD (a') submissive, meek and HUMBLE. Mosiah 5:10-12: (a) And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the NAME of CHRIST (b ) must be CALLED by some other name; (c )therefore, he FINDETH himself on the LEFT HAND OF GOD (d) And I would that ye should REMEMBER also, that this is the NAME (e) that I SAID (f)I should give unto you that NEVER should be BLOTTED OUT, (g) except it be through TRANSGRESSION; (g') therefore, take heed that ye do not TRANSGRESS, (f') that the name be NOT BLOTTED OUT of your hearts. (e') I SAY unto you, (d') I would that ye should REMEMBER to retain the NAME (c') written always in your hearts, that ye are not FOUND on the LEFT HAND OF GOD, (b') but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be CALLED, (a') and also, the NAME by which HE shall call you.

There are strong chiasmus and then week ones. Let me demonstrate Here's a strong one A) The first B )shall be C) Last c) the last b )shall be c) first. Every word fits into the chiasmus. It was probably intentional. A weak one is where it's spread out and doesn't fit tightly together. Like this: 1) I was walking down the street when I saw a car cross 2) the road in front of me 3) it was a red car 3) with red tinted windows. 2) It turned down the other road 1) and I then decided I should just walk home. In this case, not even half of the words are part of the chiasmus. It is doubtful it was intentional at all. The Book of Mormon has many hundreds of chiasmus like the first. The D&C has two or three like the second. There is no comparison at all.

Thanks for that interesting post. I picked up a book today on the topic and will be looking into it.

If you study this topic, the "Chiasmi" in the Doctrine and Covenants are not compelling at all. The Book of Mormon's chiasmi, however, are extremely compelling. I recommend you get "The Book of Mormon Reformatted According to Parallelistic Patterns" by Donald Parry, and you'll see what I mean.

No. We accept the statements of John 1:1 as well as many other scriptures that say Jesus has always existed. Yes. Maybe, maybe not. We don't know.

For one, our pastors are all lay ministers. They must affirm these things before being assigned as pastors (We call them bishops, usually). If they were to teach false doctrine such as that Jesus wasn't resurrected, they would be released from their assignment. If they continue teaching false doctrine, they may be excommunicated.

Great!

Could you give us an update?

What board are you the moderator of?

No. Can anyone be objective? I submit that history is always somewhat subjective except when dealing with dates.

I've wondered if you were attending a different church as well. I'm sorry you were banned, but you were warned. You were, in fact, teaching false doctrine. The posts above make that abundantly clear.