Shell72
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Posts posted by Shell72
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The scripture you quoted from Romans is talking about adultry. It basically says that if a a man dies, his wife can remarry and it won't be considered adultry. It has nothing to do with whether or not marriage can be eternal.
Matthew 16:19 says
19 And I will agive unto thee the bkeys of the ckingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt dbind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Where is there any mention of marriage in that passage? Did you read the whole chapter? Jesus was identifying himself to Peter as the son of God, and handing him the keys to the kingdom of heaven ( movingly metaphoric for Jesus being the way to Heaven ) and telling him that whatever judgement he passes on earth will carry forward to heaven.
Is that the verse Joseph Smith used to back up his prophesy of marrying mulitple wives? Because the subject they were discussing was not marriage, nor wives, but of the identity of Jesus and that he was the way to get to heaven.
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The missionary went on to tell me that this is what the scriptures were for. If you felt the need to check on something a leader, apostle or prophet has said you should check your scriptures and pray. That is a kicker for me because what are the scriptures but a written record of prophets? It's circular logic... I just go in circles.
"believe not every spirit, but TRY the spirits whether they are of God: Because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (I John 4:1)
Prove All Things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thessalon5:21)
Galatians 1:8--"But though we or an angel of Heaven, preach any other gospel, unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)
I take these verses personally all to mean, that anything that is in direct contradiction to the Holy Bible is not to be trusted, if you encounter anyone that tells you anything that is not in the Bible it is wrong.
I have so many more verses like this from throughout the Bible - which is why I have such a hard time with Joseph Smith - who was the founder of the LDS Church - and the man who's word was trusted to build an entire Church seperate from any other , and why I started this thread.
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Thank you - I was having a hard time following the conversation whenever that word came up.
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The above is clear evidence of how incomplete these anonymous typed exchanges are. Without heasring the inflexion of the voice, tone, pitch and looking into the eyes of the speaker is almost impossible to gage the true intent of what is typed above.
Please, take your time before responding. My hope is that we come together to exchange and to share here in the spirit of brotherhood brought about by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My most sincere apology if anyone has been offended by any of my views and opinions. I would offer it directly and specifically if you personally feel hurt. Truly
Very well said :)
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There's another thread that's real good about defining a testimony- search the word testimony, I'm sure you'll find it.
I did a search of the word and it came up with toooooooo many threads... so I googled it..and wouldn't you know - now I sit here with even MORE questions! LOL!
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When LDS speak of 'testimony' - does is mean "faith" ?
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Wow, that is a long thread. I guess this topic still gets a lot of response.
I think I’ll try to tackle that last half of the original post. I didn’t see this point being made, but only skimmed over most of the posts.
God can take away a command when ever he chooses. There is another lesson in Mormon history about a command being given, and that command being taken away. Joseph Smith and the saints where commanded to build a “new Jerusalem” or a Zion. But as you know the persecution of the saints (because of disobedience) The saints were forced to flee.
A revelation revoking this command was given to Joseph Smith.
I don’t think anybody would doubt this logic. If the Saints do what is required of them. Then they are blessed for what they have done. I honestly don’t think Polygamy was going to stay around forever. Maybe it was cut short for who knows what reason. But the Church understands that as members following a command they do what is in there power.
That is kind of short sided in the sense that you assume Polygamy was always going to be around. This we don’t know one way or the other. To assume that God can’t “change” his command is not given God credit for the commandments in the first place. Also you do not understand the deeper doctrine involved. Eternal Marriage command (that kind of gets thrown in all of this) is still a command today. The requirements for Celestial Glory are still the same.
Protected? From what? Who is to know that it didn’t get protected for 2 years longer. The idea that it would be protected forever very well could be. See the scripture above. I don’t know of a time when God gave a commandment and then told his people, “well lets see how things go in a couple of years” God has always been one that the command is still in effect, or it isn’t. At this time of willford woodruff the command was still in play.
Why not? The General Conference of the church is where Church matters are presented to the church. No better place to put into effect a change in command.
I have to assume from this statement that you have analyzed everything else Joseph Smith has said. Even though you really aren’t going by Joseph Smith’s accounts, but others that have said things about Joseph Smith. The point being you are trying to find contradictions in what Joseph Smith said with what others have said. Then to assume Joseph Smith must be the one wrong (because he has more to loose). What makes one source more accurate then another?
Because my testimony of Joseph Smith isn’t about Polygamy. Its about being called as a prophet. Its about did Joseph Smith tell the truth about the First Vision! Did Joseph Smith really see Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Did Joseph Smith really translate the Book of Mormon. Is the Book of Mormon a record of people that came from Jerusalem? Did Joseph Smith restore the priesthood today! I suggest you spend your time “researching” these ideas, topics. And then the key point of prayer to your Heavenly Father, if these things are true.
I have never asked God what the deal is with Polygamy. As far as I have been taught, that isn’t something for me to worry about today! It isn’t a commandment I need to live. The same reason I don’t worry about raising cattle so I can kill the first one of them. Yes we know that was a commandment that was practiced. But I’m not asking God if it was true or not?
The same holds true for me today! I worry about the things that deal with my Salvation! Meaning! Is Eternal Marriage a correct doctrine of God! (yes, and it was restored through Joseph Smith).
I do assume you have read section 132. It is a tuff section to read with not understanding what is being taught. Be do realize this is talking about Eternal Marrage, and how at times it was allowed to include Multiple wives. It really talks about being married Under the law, and outside the law.
I understand that God has the "right" ( for lack of a better word) to change whatever he wants. The question here is - did he?
Throughout the entire bible the message is crystal clear and not open to any misinterpretation. Do not commit adultery - it is a sin. Do not covet thy neighbors wife. It is a sin. These are the ten commandments and no where has God changed his mind and contradicted any of them.
Regarding eternal marriage - it may be in the book of mormon which Joseph Smith provided, and remember I am questioning his motives here, but in the Holy Bible this is what God says about marriage in Heaven:
"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."Mathew 22:29-31
"Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. "
Romans 7:1-3
There is no mention in the Bible of a marriage that transcends our mortal lives - the only place this comes from is out of the mouth of Joseph Smith. Some of the best love stories are written in the Bible, do you honestly believe that God would only allow those AFTER the 1800's a chance to be sealed to their wives for eternity? That the love of earlier days did not measuere up?
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Don't let that shake your testimony. People don't KNOW, or don't want to know those kind of details. Did those people give you your testimony? No? Then they can't take it away from you.
The Church isn't based on Joseph Smith. It's not his Church!
This is what my original post was trying to convey. The entire LDS church was started because of Joseph Smith and his revelations. So if Joseph Smith is running around telling married women that God wants him to marry them, in secret, and this is not true at all - why then does everyone believe anything that he says God told him? If he is lying about one thing - then why doesn't anyone question whether or not he is lying about another?
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Sure I can. But I guess you could say that even God is not entirely truthful with us since even He hides things from us.
Look, we don't understand everything; we're not ready to understand everything; it's not being deceptive for God or His prophets to withhold certain information from us if we're not ready for it.
I don't think God "hides" anything from us. I dont think His prophets would get messages if we weren't ready to hear them - just my opinon of course.
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ztodd.. if someone felt that the very founder of the Church was not telling the truth can you understand why they would question more?
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It sounds logical to me. :)
"A" comes from "B".
"B" often comes from lack of "A".
Conclusion.. "A" ultimately often comes because of lack of "A", through the means of "B".
"A" being wisdom, "B" being experience.
That's what I thought.
You either learn it the hard way or the easy way - but you are gonna learn it, is my interpretation.. LOL
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When I was growing up it was never talked about. It was never mentioned, and the fact that they didn't tell the complete story makes me feel lied to. I knew about polygamy, but I didn't know about the ages of some of his brides, or that he was marrying women who were already married to other (living) men.
I was always taught that not telling the complete truth is the same as lying.
As long as you keep in your heart MountainGirl, that even if you feel humans did lie to you - God never has. Keep your relationship with Him strong.
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Actually two women in the Temple Lot case claimed to have had sexual relation's with Joseph Smith. And the decision went against their legal claim's to be Joseph Smith's wive's. The judge felt if the sex happened it would make Joseph Smith guilty of bad behavior, but not breaking Illinois polygamy statutes. He did not feel Joseph Smith would have gotten convicted. I recall none of the polyandry list providing a legal document in that or court case.
I recall a few of the single women providing affidavit's in the case. A few of them claimed to be "wive's in very deed" if i recall the language used right. But in no case was legal document's from any of the polyandry list provided in court. Most of the affidavit's i have in my personal library were never examined in a legal situation in court.
Sylvia Session's daughter said her mother told her "that i was the daughter of the prophet Joseph Smith." (In Sacred Lonliness pg. 183) Her daughter took it as a biological claim, but her mother must have meant something regarding adoption that the daughter misunderstood. I give both of them the benifit of the doubt, but her daughter's claim to being a biological daughter is unproven. She was not Joseph Smith's daughter. DNA testing has so far been unable to confirm her claim.
I have not accused Sylvia or her daughter Josephine as lying. I do not trust her daughter's claim substantiated to being a daughter though. If DNA testing ever confirm's her claim i will accept her as Joseph Smith's daughter, but not before. Just because Todd Compton think's so in his book based on several old statement's i don't have to agree with him.
We only hear what Sylvia Session's said on her death bed second-hand through her daughter. We have no two witnesses to what her mother said.
Todd Compton is not the LDS church. He feel's sexuality was not probably present in two cases. And he feel's sexuality was present in many cases i do not. I do not see the LDS Church as having denied sexuality in any Joseph Smith's plural marriages. They havn't been involved in the debate at all. They have never repudiated the content of any affidavit relating to Joseph Smith and plural marriage. My comment's are based solely on my reading book's like In Sacred Lonliness by Todd Compton.
Remember Todd Compton has cast doubt on sexuality being involved in two of Joseph Smith's plural marriage's. So if the polyandrous sealing's and some of the marriage's to single women were platonic i do not see myself intellectually dishonest with myself to think that. I might be wrong, but i think my thinking sound. I do not accuse most of the women that claimed sexuality for themselve's clearly as lying. I only know of a few that ever made specific claim's though.
Do you have a statement from a polyandrous plural wife for herself that bother's you? Do you have just a review of In Sacred Lonliness, or the actual book? I have the book.
What makes you believe that the daughter had misunderstood? What makes you think that? I am not being argumentative - I just don't think you would think that without research, so I'm asking for a hand up here.. lol.
I will find the site that I located the other day with the affadavits written of the women testifying that they had sexual relations with Joseph Smith.
Now here is yet another couple of questions since you definately ( as well as some others here ) seem very well studied on this issue.. What was the purpose of Joseph Smith being celestially married to women already married on earth to TBM's? Were their husbands not entitled to be sealed forever with the women they married on earth? Why would Joseph feel the right to do this? Did he say in his revelation that God told him to be sealed to these women in eternity? Because I could only guess that that would hurt the husbands deeply. Look at what happened to Henry Jacobs when Brigham Young took Zina ( by proxy) and told him to go find another wife. When I think of the horrors that man must have suffered emotionally this breaks my heart. Secondly, if Joseph engaged in sexual relations with the women only married to him, I have problems being assured that his relations with other mens wives were strictly platonic and can find nothing to suggest that this was the case.
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You don't understand, because you think I'm disputing your desire to ask questions. I'm not. I'm disputing the apparent manner and attitude in which you are asking the questions.
The manner and attitude?
I'm questioning the things that I do not understand based on the Bible. There is no manner or attitude involved. Straight up saying things how I see them and asking for straight up answers.
I have been nothing but respectful and honest.
I am sure you don't mean that you wish I should change that?
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You're totally missing my point. I guess I was foolish to expect you to understand.
There is no need to be unkind.
Why is it just because I do not agree with you, you chose to take this route? I believe God tells us to investigate, and I choose to follow that, and yet you say I am the one who doesn't understand? Why can you not understand that this is something God expects of us instead of being so quick to assume I am wrong?
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The problem lies with the intent of the heart. If you have your mind made up about something and aren't willing to be open-minded, then the Spirit won't be able to testify of the truth. Analyzing a person to gain a better understanding of them is one thing. Picking apart their character in order to find something that isn't righteous is quite another. If you look for the bad you'll only find the bad.
God told us to be wary. His character and his actions are clues to investigate furthur. We can not just pray "God is this man telling the truth?" - we must use the brains and intelligence God blessed us with to read His own message and compare that to the message of any man in my opinon.
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That is what I was always taught Jonboysquarepants ( whew! that is a mouthful!) and that is why I see no harm in questioning Joseph Smith as we have been warned that false prophets would come. I feel that his behaviors are in direct contradiction of God's word and that is why my questions have come about.
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<hush sweeps over the crowd>... skewered on the pithy point of Elphaba's verbal sword...
Nice thrust.
HiJolly
:lol:LOL.
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All I can say on this matter is that when Joseph Smith was 14 he went into a Grove of trees to pray for guidance as to which Church was true.
Through a series of Revelations he had the Keys of the Priesthood restored to him & eventually restored the Church in the Latter Days.
Was he a Prophet of God.?I have no doubts on this.Was he a good husband &father?According to Emma & his children he was.
Was he perfect? Off course he wasn't I accept he made mistakes but commit adultery-sorry cannot believe that.
My source is one that is available to anybody-study it out in your mind & then ask God & if it's true you will get a confirmation from the Spirit-that's how I got my testimony of anything.
Jolette if that is what works for you, then far be it from me or anyone else to tell you otherwise. Your relationship is between you and God and no mortal has the right to interfere in that. It makes no one better, or worse - just different :)
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I have nothing against questions, myself.
"I think that not asking questions -- even tough questions -- is
more dangerous. And when it comes to our ethical beliefs, not
asking questions quite possibly might be unethical in and of itself."
--"Ethics Matters" columnist Carlton Vogt
"To refuse to doubt, think about or question what you are told
is to miss an opportunity to talk to God"
-- Father Leo Booth
"The unexamined life is not worth living"
-- Socrates
HiJolly
:) Thank you!
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As you might imagine, those sympathetic to his cause and claims of prophetic calling (like me
) call his death a martyrdom. Search on that, maybe? I've been to the Carthage jail where he & his brother were killed, it was quite a moving experience for me. HiJolly
I can imagine that would be very moving to be at the place where one you revere and respect was killed. I am going to read more on his death, as I have been reading so much on his life lately perhaps if I went to the end of the story and worked backwards I may get more understanding.
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. God will not give you an answer if you are not open-minded. It sounds like you already have your mind made up.
So because I question things, as God instructed us to do, He will not give me an answer? Is that what you are saying?
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That's not what I would view as an accurate description. I don't know if anyone has pointed you to FARMS or FAIR, but I highly recommend them as a resource for hearing what happened. I'm feeling the time crunch, myself.
The Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship
HiJolly
Thank you... I do want to learn more about the circumstance of his death so I appreciate the links.
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Oh really? Then why are you so consumed with pointing out the faults of a man?.
Because this man directly contradicts what God has instructed. And built an entire church movement based on his words. So if some of his words were false it is difficult to believe that some were truthful.
God's truth has to do with doctrine and saving ordinances. It's only man who needs answers to all questions and points to a person's shortcomings as proof that they aren't a prophet.
God's words on the subject:
who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners, who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense, Isaaih 44:24-26
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds. Jeremiah 14: 13-15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." Mathew 7:14-16
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves." 2 Peter: 2:1
I am not saying that without a doubt Joseph Smith was a false prophet - I am still in the throes of digesting all of this. What I am saying is God warned us of False prophets and instructed us to be aware.
) call his death a martyrdom. Search on that, maybe? I've been to the Carthage jail where he & his brother were killed, it was quite a moving experience for me.
Please explain this to me... I honestly don't understand
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea ... he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did .... you have got to learn how to be GODS YOURSELVES... the same as all GODS have done before you .... "Joseph Smith
I am he: BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME." (Isaiah 43:1 O)
God the Father has a body of FLESH AND BONES. (Section 130:22 The D&C
God is a SPIRIT. (John 4:24)
Those seem like blatant contradictions in my eyes. As well as Joseph directly disobeying the 10 commandments in the name of God - to me those are major red flags that we all, as God's children, should question this.