Traveler
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In Georgia the state added to text books used in public school a sticker that said evolution is a theory. This last week a federal judge said the stickers must be removed.Originally posted by Cal@Jan 14 2005, 06:20 PM
Please give the legal citation for the case you are refering to.
I see this as a direct assult on freedom and rule by democracy. The stickers were placed by elected officials. They were removed by federal judges that are appointed. I do not think the federal judges should rule against the will of the people or when states have president (Article X). BTW the ruling by the judge compaired the sticker to "Hate speach".
The Traveler
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Originally posted by Cal+Jan 14 2005, 06:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 14 2005, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Traveler@Jan 13 2005, 06:20 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 13 2005, 04:47 PM
Trav--isn't that what mormon missionaries try to do everyday? Are we the Anti-Christ? Actually, I think you could say that we are the most successful at disrupting the faith of others, we manage to convert thousands of people every year. How is the faith they once had not disrupted? Faith in mormonism is a heck of a lot different than faith in most other religions, even in mainstream Christian religion.
You may look at it that way if you wish. The LDS missionaries have a message. That message is centered around what we understand is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We do not teach our view of Catholic doctrine, or Baptist doctrine, or anything else - just our doctrine. I have studied many faiths and had long conversations but you will never see me post trying to tell anyone what Catholics, Baptist, Hindu or anyone else believes. In fact there is much they believe that I believe as well. You will not see my try to set a doctrinal trap. I am LDS and that is the gospel I believe. If you do not believe as I do that is fine. If you want to tell me what you believe that is fine to. I love to share beliefs. But I do not believe the Anti-Christ have a live and let live attitude. For example I think they will try to get into our general conference and shout something during sustaining. I think they will try to prevent the building of our temples. I think they will come to SLC to the Main Street Plaza and try to ruin someone's wedding day. That is different that just belonging to a different religion.
But I do not like someone trying to tell me what I believe. Nor am I that interested in what others believe that hides their beliefs. If you have something better then put your beliefs on the table if not that is whay I think you would hide it.
For example I think there is a lot of evidence to support the Book of Mormon and I do not mind sharing it. But if some says that it does not prove the Book of Mormon to them. That is fine with me - until they use similar kinds of evidence to support something they say they believe. Then I realize I am not talking to someone that is honest with themself.
I am not sure if you believe in the “last days” or not. I do not know if you believe that there is followers of the Anti-Christ among the Christians (wolfs in sheep clothing). In fact for all your post that I have read I am not sure what you believe (this topic included) – I think I have a good idea what you do not believe but then I am not sure. I am quite sure you do not comprehend my posts, especially on this subject. I am not sure if you know what you believe. Sometimes I think we could learn from each other but other times I am not sure that would be desirable.
The Traveler
I'm still trying to get a handle on just what an anti-christ is supposed to be. You seem to change the definition with each post. This last post makes it sound like you think an anti-christ is someone who annoys you--tells you what your religion teaches or doesn't teach, or someone that is rude and obnoxious--interupting meetings or weddings. Sounds like the anti-christ is really just an anti-social.
See #5 of my post beginning this thread. Please pay more attention and try to keep up.
BTW I could say the same about Hitler - he was just a little anti-social when it came to Jewish society. Do you not understand that the defination of anti-social is not anti-social to certain socities but all society. When someone is anti to specific socitey and not others that is not anti-socal that is the defination of a bigot.
Do you believe there are among men those that seek to undermine the worship and reverence that others would express? Do you believe that the constitution (first ammendment) allows for peaceful assembly? From your post it appears to me you think the counstitution is a joke and should be ridiculed.
The Traveler
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I would say your assesment is 100% correct.Originally posted by curvette@Jan 13 2005, 01:20 PM
From that description, it sounds like they have made allowances for LDS foreigners living in Saudi Arabia to practice their religion there, but not Saudi citizens. Is that correct?
The Traveler
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I have been a scout and a scoutmaster. Most LDS members do not understand the patrol method for teaching leadership because most ward young men programs are two small and only the 12 and 13 year olds are active scouts. Part of the scouting program is geared to rewarding boys for achievement – many think LDS boys should not need reorganization and rewards – they should be good for nothing. Scouting is not just about awards (advancement) and camping it is about teaching leaders that are trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful, alert, mentally awake, morally straight, clean and reverent.
It is too bad that most wards do not have a real scouting program. I remember going to winter campout competitions and telling my scouts that these things are a lot more fun if you blow away all the competition. We spent a month just getting ready. For starting a fire without matches we built a bow over 6 feet long to be operated by 2 scouts. We built a brace with a small log about 8 inches in diameter that took 4 scouts to hold. Once the bow and drill were started we could have a fire 2 feet high in 15 seconds. We did not even care if our wood was a little wet we could still start a fire faster than anyone else. The boys were all sharp and when we showed up everyone noticed. Everything was by the handbook. The tents were set in perfect rows, the boys would scream as we brought in our equipment and set up. The goal was to have camp up in 5 minutes. Of course we always won first place amid the claims that we cheated. I would respond by saying if being prepared to compete is cheating then we were diffidently guilty. The boys would tell me this is the most fun they had ever had in their life. It has been more that 15 years for some but still many of my boys come back yearly with their wives and children for a week of camping and white water rafting. Often it would be the first camp their wives had been on that they would admit they loved. Last year one of my boys showed up with his wife and kids – their youngest kid was 2 months old (of course the little kids are not allowed on the river).
I can’t imagine someone not liking camping or scouts. I would tell my scouts there is no such thing as bad weather – just bad equipment, bad preparation and bad attitudes. You don’t dream in scouts – you live your dreams. The sad thing to me is that some of the fathers of my boys never came on any campouts, never really got involved and complained about having to buy uniforms or other equipment that the boys would soon grow out of.
It is too bad that most LDS boys do not really get to enjoy the scouting program. Today we are seeing this great institution under attack from greedy men that desire to bend boys to more modern morals. I am concerned that in our society there are more men of twisted morals interested in our boys than men of character that love the adventure of teaching boys the rigors and adventure of growing up with honor as a boy scout.
The Traveler
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Let me begin by saying that I am and engineer and scientist. My education is in Mathematics and Physics. Currently I work in the Automation and Robotics industry. I believe that G-d is the creator and that the best and most accurate description of creation in layman terms is evolution. I know for a fact that evolution exist and is the method from which a zygote eventually becomes a human child at birth. Evolution is the process by which a child grows and becomes an adult and evolution is the process at work in that we call ageing.
Every person that was conceived by fertilization, developed in a womb and born of woman is created through evolution. I do not believe that G-d has changed his method of creation and I do not believe the scriptures support any such notion that G-d has modified his methods or ceased to be the creator. I believe the doctrine of creationism that excludes evolution is both junk science and junk religion. I believe that evolution should be taught in school as a fact of life.
As vehement as I am about evolution it is my opinion that the federal court judgment in Georgia is unconstitutional, dictatorial and totalitarian. It is proof that the United States is not a free country and that our republic democracy has failed and is being replaced by a government that caters to the desire of a totalitarian power hungry minority rather than a government based on democratic principles and the rule of law. Article X (ten) declares that powers that are not specifically granted to the federal government belong to the States. Education is a power not granted to the federal government under our national constitution and therefore is a power of the State. By the rule of law, what is to be taught in public schools is to be determined by the state that is empowered and authorized by that public – regardless of how stupid or brilliant the curriculum is, it is determined by the state and is under the jurisdiction of the state, state courts and elected state officials not ever by federal courts or federal bureaucrats exercising unconstitutional powers.
I will add one last observation. The method used by radical insurgents in overthrowing the inspired and enlightened government of the Nephits in the Book of Mormon was by corrupted judges issuing verdicts catering to a powerful minority contrary to the established rule of law. We are now observing and experiencing the beginnings of the same scourge of radical insurgent judges and others in the legal profession of law, destroying our freedoms by deliberate calculation. For people that would be free, the end never justifies the means because it is by the means of freedom (not by forcing any end) that the will of the people (their freedom) is respected and preserved. Can the will of the majority bring about ill effects in society? Without question it has in the past will again in the future - but not anywhere near the degree that government by the will of any minority, which always bring about the ills of totalitarianism.
The Traveler
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You may look at it that way if you wish. The LDS missionaries have a message. That message is centered around what we understand is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We do not teach our view of Catholic doctrine, or Baptist doctrine, or anything else - just our doctrine. I have studied many faiths and had long conversations but you will never see me post trying to tell anyone what Catholics, Baptist, Hindu or anyone else believes. In fact there is much they believe that I believe as well. You will not see my try to set a doctrinal trap. I am LDS and that is the gospel I believe. If you do not believe as I do that is fine. If you want to tell me what you believe that is fine to. I love to share beliefs. But I do not believe the Anti-Christ have a live and let live attitude. For example I think they will try to get into our general conference and shout something during sustaining. I think they will try to prevent the building of our temples. I think they will come to SLC to the Main Street Plaza and try to ruin someone's wedding day. That is different that just belonging to a different religion.Originally posted by Cal@Jan 13 2005, 04:47 PM
Trav--isn't that what mormon missionaries try to do everyday? Are we the Anti-Christ? Actually, I think you could say that we are the most successful at disrupting the faith of others, we manage to convert thousands of people every year. How is the faith they once had not disrupted? Faith in mormonism is a heck of a lot different than faith in most other religions, even in mainstream Christian religion.
But I do not like someone trying to tell me what I believe. Nor am I that interested in what others believe that hides their beliefs. If you have something better then put your beliefs on the table if not that is whay I think you would hide it.
For example I think there is a lot of evidence to support the Book of Mormon and I do not mind sharing it. But if some says that it does not prove the Book of Mormon to them. That is fine with me - until they use similar kinds of evidence to support something they say they believe. Then I realize I am not talking to someone that is honest with themself.
I am not sure if you believe in the “last days” or not. I do not know if you believe that there is followers of the Anti-Christ among the Christians (wolfs in sheep clothing). In fact for all your post that I have read I am not sure what you believe (this topic included) – I think I have a good idea what you do not believe but then I am not sure. I am quite sure you do not comprehend my posts, especially on this subject. I am not sure if you know what you believe. Sometimes I think we could learn from each other but other times I am not sure that would be desirable.
The Traveler
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I have never made an agreement that I would stay with an employer for the rest of my life or for eternity. I did make an eternal agreement with my wife. I did agree with my employer that I would give 2 weeks notice before leaving. I have always kept my promises to my wife and employer
As for when I was dating - I remember asking someone to an evening activity but I do not recall making arangements more than a day by day basis. I never understood the steady boy friend - girl friend thing. That was until I got engaged. I think there are some differences between dating, courtship, engagement, marriage and excepting employment but I think a person should always be good for their word and true to their commitments.
The Traveler
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I think you can say this about anyone breaking the law - except for the laws they break they are good decent people just trying to get by. Personally I do not think good decent people deliberately plan in advance to break the law. It is part of what I understand as good and decent.Originally posted by curvette@Jan 12 2005, 06:59 PM
I also do agree that some of these people come over here with no respect for our laws. One of my good friends and his little baby daughter were killed by an illegal Mexican man who was drunk and driving on the wrong side of the freeway. It was tragic. I still mourn them. Still, most of the illegals I've met are good, decent, family oriented people just looking for work.
The Traveler
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Originally posted by Cal@Jan 12 2005, 06:34 PM
When WASN'T there a time when every Tom, ###### and Harry claimed to have God on his side? Nothing much has changed there.
Mormons fall into that category too. Virtually all Muslim and Christian religions make that claim. What's new? And the other Eastern Religions could care less about the whole issue. Again, what's new?
5. The followers of the Anti-Christ will fight against the followers of the Christ. “Make war against the lamb”. I believe the followers of the Anti-Christ will attempt to disrupt the worshipers of Christ by any means possible such as protesters at their gatherings, law suits to prevent or hinder building houses and other sacred places of worship, published works to confuse doctrine, distortions of doctrine (example from the past “thou being a man make your self G-d” see John chapter 10), and any other way they can imagine. The point here is that the followers of the Anti-Christ will go among the followers of Christ to create conflict – not the other way around. The followers of the Anti-Christ will be willing to play “the devil’s advocate” in an attempt to destroy loyalty to covenants. The followers of Christ will send out missionaries to every nation and people to teach but they will only teach the “good news” or gospel. They will not teach or publish concerning other gospels or in any way “pervert” what others believe; teaching only the gospel of Christ. (See Gal 1:7-8)The Traveler
1. The vast majority of people will be aligned with the Anti-Christ - Those for Christ will always be a minority of the people until the Christ comes. “Straight and narrow is the way and few it be that find it”Well, I guess it won't happen in the United State or Europe since the majority of us are Christians.
You missed the point - the Ancient Anti-Christ were all Hebrews and of the house of Israel and claimed be be under covenant with G-d. A modern day Pharisee will be connected to "traditional Christianity" in the same manner ancient Anti-Christ (Scribes and Pharisees) were conected to the traditions of "Israel". But just being a scribe or Pharisee did not make them Anti-Christ. There was more to it.
2.Since you think the Anti-Christ is Satan, for anything to be different I suppose we would have to prove that the world is a worse place than it was a few hundred or even thousand years ago. By most measures, it is actually better now. More people go to church than in the past, more humanitarian aid to the poor than in the past, there have always been wars. Less hunger in the world now than in the past. Seems like a better place to me.
QUOTE]
The Pharisees said almost this same thing in John Chapter 8. They could argue that they were much better than the Samaritans using the same logic you used. Jesus responded that it is not a matter of being better than someone else it is doing the will of the Father. I do not believe it is the will of the Father to treat someone in a manner that you would not have them treat you. If you want to worship according to your beliefs then if you are really a follower of Jesus you will grant the same to others. The Anti-Christ will try to disrupt other's faith. And Yes I believe someone LDS can be part of the Anti-Christ but I do not believe the ministers pretending to be Christian at Main St. Plazza trying to disrupt LDS that had to come in reverence are anything related to Christ.
As for the rest of your post I will not comment except that you did nothing to indicate how one might identify a Christian from the Anti-Christ. From your comments it appears if they have "sheep" clothing they must not be a wolf. I do not agree. Since you do not indicate how you determine wolves from sheep - I assume you have no method?
The Traveler
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There is some question about the LDS religion being legal in Saudi Arabia. I contacted a friend still in Saudi Arabia and the following is what I was told about the current status as of today.
The legal status of the LDS church is some what “under the table”. Although the LDS church is a legal religion in Saudi Arabia it does not enjoy the same status as the Moslem faith. As pointed out by Curvette that to convert from the Moslem faith one can be punished by death. Following are some of the things the LDS faith is able to do:
1. Hold public meeting without supervision. 12 years ago the maximum number allowed at a meeting was 35, currently the number is unlimited.
2. Teach members of your own household or relatives that are not LDS and convert them to the LDS faith. This is assuming that they are not Moslem. This has also been relaxed recently and LDS are allowed to teach and convert foreign visitors that are not Moslem.
3. Collect tithing and other offerings and export the money from Saudi Arabia
4. Bring LDS leaders to Saudi Arabia for the sole purpose of meeting with other LDS members - for events like stake conference.
5. Perform Baptisms to those that request to be LDS (but are not Moslem)
6. Build an official stake center (building for only that purpose) on the east cost on property within the RAMCO (joint USA Saudi oil corporation) compound. There are 5 wards in Saudi Arabia. One in Juddah, one in Riyad and 3 on the east cost. In addition there are several branches - all on the east cost.
7. Give blessings to LDS members in Saudi hospitals.
LDS are not allowed to do the following:
1. Pass out LDS publications or other printed material to Moslems
2. Answer questions that an Moslem ask about the LDS faith. This has been relaxed and LDS are allowed to answer questions that can be answered with a “Yes” or “No”. The standard answer is to say “I did not come to Saudi Arabia to answer any questions about my religion.” I do know from my Arabic friends that it is not uncommon for them to visit LDS web sites to get information but they are very scared about posting anything themselves. Also it is a violation of their faith to copy anything where G-d is spelled out - which is one reason I don’t.
3. Build any religious buildings on Saudi soil - the exception is the Stake Center on REMCO property.
Some other points of interest: There is also a Stake in the United Arab Emirates with 12 unites (stakes and branches). These are listed in the global locator at the official LDS web site. UAE is much more liberal with the LDS legal status than Saudi Arabia. The Saudi’s are very aware and curious about the LDS in particular that we do not use any statues, pictures or crosses as part of our worship services or displayed to identify where we worship (one reason that the LDS faith is legal). Our welfare and relief programs. That for our number of members we will have over 60,000 missionaries most of which are 19 years old. That we do not feel connected to the Catholic or Protestant Churches and that we believe in a living prophet.
The LDS church leadership has agreed not to make active efforts to convert any Moslems world wide. The agreement is that if a Moslem request membership while then are not in a Moslem country (like Saudi Arabia) we can baptize them.
Because the legal status is sort of under the table I cannot prove any of the above information but before you call me as a liar and condemn me to Hell based on your over active imagination and desire to shake thing up; I suggest you talk to an active LDS member that has been to Saudi Arabia within the last 10 years.
The Traveler
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There are really three problems here.
First and most important is that the government of the USA did not declare war according to our law and constitution. All things like law and rights change when war has been legally declared. We should not expect our patriotic young men to be subjected to the horrors of combat without protecting them legally by declaring war. It is congress that hold the responsibility of what is war and should be held accountable not the military
Second: The prisoners at Abu Ghraib were part of the repressive government of Saddam. Of course he treated them better – they were his buds. What do you expect them to say? It is not a matter of what Saddam did to them but what they were doing along with Saddam to their countrymen. How do these people treat their prisoners – some of whom are not military? Have their been any violations of international law? Does Abu Ghraib justify the beheadings?
Third: The handling of prisoners should be understood in relationship to the dangers encountered in combat. In other words if there is a question of saving American lives (especially non-military) our armed forces are under obligation to risk their lives and disregard the life and dignity of the enemy. War is not a game nor is it nice by design. Churchill said that there are things worse than war and all the bad things that occur during war – and they all come from losing one. Anyone that is not willing to pick up a weapon and take a place in combat should not criticize those that do. These men should be tried before fellow solders not politicians looking better their position of power.
The Traveler
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1.I am concerned that foreign governments publish and distribute anything that encourages their citizens to come to our country and deliberately break our laws.
2.I am bewildered when someone calls someone else a bigot for expecting foreigners to have respect our laws.
3.I am aghast when someone suggests illegal aliens are good for us because we can and do exploit them illegally.
4.I think children are being taught poor values when they are given the impression that they do not have to compete in the market place value for value for what they do and what they are paid. I do not care if they are getting paid 10 cents an hour they are still better off working for almost nothing than they are watching 90% of what our broadcasters deliberately put on TV directly targeting our youth.
5.I do not think illegal aliens are the real problem or a good solution to be considered a major or first concern. I believe illegal aliens to be a trickle down problem of problems in our society that for the purpose of appearing “politically correct” we will not consider.
6.Finely I think that someone is a trader and does not deserve to be a citizen if they openly advocate or assist in the breaking or disrespect for the law.
The Traveler
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Originally posted by curvette+Jan 6 2005, 11:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Jan 6 2005, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@Jan 5 2005, 10:44 PM
I was told that because of LDS help that the LDS church is the only non Islamic religion legal in Sauda Arabia.
Do you believe that? This must be within the last week. Islam is the official religion of Saudi Arabia. All citizen must be Muslims. Conversion to another religion is punishable by death.
This was told to me by a devout Muslim from Bahrain. Bahrain has close ties to Saudi Arabia and like Saudi Arabia is mostly Shiite and is ruled by Sunni.
The Traveler
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It is where people go that do not believe in "Gosh". :)
The Traveler
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Originally posted by Snow+Jan 5 2005, 05:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Jan 5 2005, 05:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@Jan 5 2005, 04:08 PM
An investigative reporter for a local SLC radio station (KNRS – Bob Launsburry) reported that the voluntary LDS contributions gathered during a fast effort (Sunday) by the LDS is the largest single private contributor and exceeds even that of all other countries except for the USA. He also announced that some of the money coming from the USA will be distributed by the LDS to avoid being lost in government agencies.
The Traveler
What more can you tell us about that?
I heard from the EQ Pres that the Church's contribution was, well - an extremely large number, a number that seemed to big to be believed. However if what you say is so then it may have been accurate. Do you have a link or source or know something else?
There might be a link on the KNRS site. I heard Bob on his morning show. Sorry I could not be better help but the church does not seem anxious to publish numbers. I have talked to Aribric people that know the LDS church just from help donated to Aribic countries. I was told that because of LDS help that the LDS church is the only non Islamic religion legal in Sauda Arabia.
Also do not give all the credit to church leadership. The amount was donated by the members as part of a special fast. The amount comes from the heart of the people.
The Traveler
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I believe it is a target. During my military service I spent some time with an Inteligence unit. I met an individual that was working in South America tracking various groups (Communiest) operating to penetrate various organizations. He told me he joined the LDS church because it was the only organization in South America the communiest could not penetrate. He had been sent (CIA) to investigate and was converted. He said that the members seemed to be able to sense when a new member did not belong.Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 5 2005, 05:34 PM
Do you believe there are Anti-Christ's in high places within the LDS church? Or do you believe that the Church of Christ is an actual organization? Or do you believe the church or kingdom of God is within our hearts?
This is not to say that it could not happen - but I believe that keeping sinful secerets is extreamly difficult. I knew a couple of elders on my mission that just seemed to somehow be different. Both ended up being sent home and lost their membership.
I believe the Chruch of Christ is both an actual organization and the power manifest by the Holy Ghost that is within our hearts given through the organization by the laying on of hands.
Jesus said that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit and that a good tree will not bring corrupt fruit. I believe it is impossible for the Anti-Christ to operate among believers in Christ loyal to their covenants. The term "eyes that see" is a promise given by covenant to those that are loyal. I also believe loyality to covenant is the only defense against the Anti-Christ.
The Traveler
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The actual symbolism given is “the man of sin” and “son of perdition” that is sitting in the temple of G-d. I believe this symbolism is indicating that Satan or Lucifer is the man of sin and the son of perdition. The symbolism of sitting in the Temple of G-d is not a particular temple as it is to replace G-d. It also appears to me that the actual meaning of “Anti-Christ” is both Satan and those that choose to follow him.Originally posted by curvette@Jan 5 2005, 12:32 PM
The anti Christ is something I've spent very little time pondering because it's so mysterious. In which temple will the anti-Christ sit? As I understand our doctrines, the temple at Jerusalem and the temple in Independence MO must be built before the Savior returns. The scriptures talk about the anti Christ as if he is an actual person. Do most of you believe he is a person, or a symbol of a particular philosophy?
In the same manner that Christ has established his kingdom beginning with Adam, Satan has also established a parallel organization. The first leader of Satan’s organization was Cain who took the title “Master Mahan” that is the mirror parallel to the President, prophet or presiding High Priest. Master Mahan is the keeper of the “secret” where human life is waged for monetary profit and political power. We know a little how the secret works from the Book of Mormon. It operates in secret and assists its members to gain key positions in various religious organizations, businesses, and political parties – or anywhere else thought to be beneficial for accruing wealth and power.
It is my personal belief that all members of the secret society can correctly be referred to as the Anti-Christ. Once the Anti-Christ gain control of an organization they may use the previous members of that organization to perform various Anti acts but not include them in their secret society. It is my understanding that as the time draws nearer for Christ to return that everyone that is not part of the Church of Christ will be under the control of the Anti-Christ. What I have attempted to do is give clues that will indicate the control the Anti-Christ have exercised in various places and times in history and our current place and time.
The Traveler
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An investigative reporter for a local SLC radio station (KNRS – Bob Launsburry) reported that the voluntary LDS contributions gathered during a fast effort (Sunday) by the LDS is the largest single private contributor and exceeds even that of all other countries except for the USA. He also announced that some of the money coming from the USA will be distributed by the LDS to avoid being lost in government agencies.
The Traveler
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We learn from scripture that in the last days preceding the second coming of the Christ there will be a great conflict between the followers of the Christ and the followers of the Anti-Christ. The purpose of this thread is to open a dialog on this forum on this subject for several reasons. First to determine if there are points upon which LDS and other Christians can agree concerning this matter and second to expand (if possible) individual understanding of this great conflict in order that as many as possible can will find ways to support and assist with all that are struggling and determined to be on the side of the Christ. It is my belief that the followers of the two conflicting parties in this war are not completely determined at this time (the dividing into one or the other group is currently in process). It is my wish, as much as possible, that those who would be with Christ may recognize their real allies and their accusers and work to become one with Christ and avoid being drawn in among the Anti-Christ. Also to be able to recognize the wolves in sheep clothing that are of the Anti-Christ masquerading as followers of the Christ that intend to confuse and mislead the followers of Christ.
Personally I rely heavily on two elements of scripture for my understanding of the difference between the Christ and the Anti-Christ. First are the prototypes (types and shadows) from events past that are recorded in scripture. What has happened before, I believe it will happen again in a very similar if not identical manner (See Ecclesiastes 1:9-11). Second are the prophesies in the scriptures that tell of thing that will come to pass – but since this is based on symbolism sometimes the interpretation can be deceiving.
My understanding of the conflict between the Christ and the Anti-Christ.
1. The vast majority of people will be aligned with the Anti-Christ - Those for Christ will always be a minority of the people until the Christ comes. “Straight and narrow is the way and few it be that find it”
2. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim to be the legitimate authority of Christ and G-d. The Anti-Christ will “Sit in the temple of G-d showing himself that he is G-d”. This is very interesting to me because I believe that the Anti-Christ (Satan) will demand that he be acknowledged above the G-dhead (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) and claim that he and he alone is the only single G-d and is the entire G-dhead (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) all by himself. Think – over the last 2000 years, how has he acomplished this?
3. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim authority from the written scriptures. They will claim that the followers of Christ teach doctrines that are contrary to scripture. – Those for Christ will receive their authority from G-d. “We have Moses and the Prophets (ancient Anti’s reference to scripture) … Tell us plainly by what authority you come” Note that in Luke chapter 4; Satan (the Anti-Christ) uses scriptures in an effort to tempt Jesus. Note too, that those that followed the Anti-Christ claimed that what Jesus taught was contrary to the scriptures. Jesus said that everything he did was because the Father commanded him (not because of scripture).
4. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim history and tradition proves they are the legitimate religion. “We are the children of Abraham”.
5. The followers of the Anti-Christ will fight against the followers of the Christ. “Make war against the lamb”. I believe the followers of the Anti-Christ will attempt to disrupt the worshipers of Christ by any means possible such as protesters at their gatherings, law suits to prevent or hinder building houses and other sacred places of worship, published works to confuse doctrine, distortions of doctrine (example from the past “thou being a man make your self G-d” see John chapter 10), and any other way they can imagine. The point here is that the followers of the Anti-Christ will go among the followers of Christ to create conflict – not the other way around. The followers of the Anti-Christ will be willing to play “the devil’s advocate” in an attempt to destroy loyalty to covenants. The followers of Christ will send out missionaries to every nation and people to teach but they will only teach the “good news” or gospel. They will not teach or publish concerning other gospels or in any way “pervert” what others believe; teaching only the gospel of Christ. (See Gal 1:7-8)
6. The followers of Christ will be more concerned with taking care of the poor and relief for the troubled (Remember the parable of the good Samaritan). The Anti-Christ will be more centered on doctrine and appearances or positions in social structure.
7. The followers of the Anti-Christ will eventually create a federation of all that are not followers of Christ (a church) that is the Great and Abominable Church. This organization will become so economically powerful that it will be able to control what is bought and sold in the global market place. I also believe that this organization will be able to force legislation that will change the legal definition of marriage. This organization will also become so powerful that all religious organizations will cease to exist, become part of the Anti-Christ or join with the followers of Christ. I believe the preservation of families headed by the blessed union of marriage as defined by G-d will become a defining sign of the followers of Christ. I also believe that the avoidance of debt will be another great defining sign of the followers of Christ in order to avoid the powers exercised by the Great and Abominable Church.
The Traveler
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Originally posted by Cal+Dec 18 2004, 10:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Dec 18 2004, 10:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--speedomansam@Dec 18 2004, 12:39 AM
i know you're being sarcastic, but the only mention of native americans in that article was stating how the skeletons were not native americans. so, did you just bring this up because an anti who totally misread the article might conceive it deals with native americans being scandinavian? if so, i see your little humor but it seems strange; you might as well start quoting articles that say "horses found in american grave sites" and comment how stupid it would be for an anti to misread and claim that, since no horses have been found, the bom is not true.
i need to go to bed.
I have to agree the article adds very little to the origins of native americans. The fact that scandanavians or other small groups may have set foot in the americans over the centuries adds little to the mountain of evidence that the native american tribes are the decendants of asiatic migrants from north west asia and siberia. The mitochondrial DNA evidence points in this direction, with virtually no evidence linking any native american tribe to caucasians, much less middle eastern causcacians. Vitually no anthropologists who know the literature are claiming that there is any evidence that native americans are "jewish". If the truth of the book of mormon has to stand on the origin of native americans--the claim has to be reevaluated.
A rather brash statement. The Kiah were blond hair and blue eyed and I know of no DNA study that linked them to "north west asia and siberia". In case you are wondering and I may have misspelled "Kiah", they were the first native Americans encuntered by the Europieans.
The Traveler
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I would think time is something that is really yours that you can give. It may not be the only thing. Thanks for your thought.Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Dec 20 2004, 11:51 AM
Is the gift of yourself "time"?
The Traveler
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The wise men from the east came to bring gifts. Some say that this is the beginning of giving gifts at Christmas. We give gifts to friends and family, I wondered if others think of giving something to Christ at this time of year.Originally posted by Spencer@Dec 20 2004, 11:01 AM
the Christ Child as in myself? I dont understand the question
The Traveler
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First off I agree that evil deeds can become a great stumbling block for others. However, keep in mind that Shakespear once wrote, “Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so.”Originally posted by Cal@Dec 20 2004, 03:54 PM
I agree this might be true for some sins; but consider the effects of adultery on children. How can they protect themselves from the fall out of those kinds of acts by their parents? Or consider spousal or child abuse. Pretty hard to say, "don't buy into the effects". Even lesser things. Say lying to your boss about the hours you are putting in on the job. Eventually you lose your job---if you have a family to support, the fall out may be pretty drastic.
It is impossible to get through life without receiving something bad you do not deserve. It appears to me that when you focus on yourself it will amplify the effect any injustice will have. It also appears to me that the only way to get past injustice is a willingness to sacrifice yourself for the benefit of others.
We should always be concerned for others. Realizing that we can have an negative impact on them but at the same time realizing that they do not have to have a negative impact on us.
The Traveler
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I have an old college friend that I hardly ever see anymore, but every year we exchange Christmas greetings. Over the years he has stayed with the idea that the only real gift is the gift of yourself. All others are cheep imitations. Every year at this time I make an entry in my journal concerning my gift to the Christ Child. How well my gift was given over the last year and what specific gift I plan for this year. Just thought I would ask what are some of you giving to the Christ Child this year?
The Traveler
Christ Verses The Anti-christ
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
I'm still trying to get a handle on just what an anti-christ is supposed to be. You seem to change the definition with each post. This last post makes it sound like you think an anti-christ is someone who annoys you--tells you what your religion teaches or doesn't teach, or someone that is rude and obnoxious--interupting meetings or weddings. Sounds like the anti-christ is really just an anti-social.
Your postings on anti-christ, if you will read back thru them, have such vague, generalized and varying descriptions that make "keeping up" very difficult. I'm not really sure you, your self, knows what this anti-christ thing means. You just implied that anyone who attempts to subvert the 1st amendment right to assembly is an anti-christ. Can you be SPECIFIC as to WHO you think is the anti-christ that is doing all this disrupting?
BTW--if one disrupts a Buddist meeting, does that make one the Anti-Buddah?
Perhaps your problem is that you do not understand what Christ is supposed to be. One principle of the Christ and those that follow him is a great respect for other people – even those that you do not agree with. For example: “Do good to those that hate you” and going the extra mile.
Anciently the Pharisees were not anti-social but they were anti to the teachings of Christ – that made them Anti-Christ. For the large part those that oppose the LDS are not anti social. You keep saying they are that but I think you have lost your marbles on this. Most anti-LDS belong to some religion (social organization). Belonging to a religious organization would exclude them from being anti social. Am I talking to a wall here? How can you think someone to be anti-social when they belong to a social organization? Hello, is anyone home?
I have given some examples of anti-Christ behavior. I think my examples are very clear as well as consistent. Someone that lies is a liar. Someone that absconds things that do not belong to them is a thief. For the record I have offered the idea that someone that intends to disrupt demonstrations of kindness and love (example marriage) is anti to the teachings of Love expressed by Christ. I have also suggested that preventing peaceful assembly (or attempting to prevent peaceful assembly) is anti to the specific freedom expressed in the 1st Amendment of the constitution of the United States of America. If someone allows most other religions to peacefully assembly but they target a specific religion to prevent that religion from peaceful assembly this is not anti social. The correct word is BIGOT.
You asked “if one disrupts a Buddist meeting, does that make one the Anti-Buddah?” Yes I believe it does. I also believe it makes them part of the Anti-Christ movement as well. “Do unto others {Buddhist} as you would have them {Buddhist} do unto you.”
The Traveler