Ray

Well there’s an interesting idea. I wonder how original it is. First off, who is it up to? If it is even possible to “build a community where all righteous minded people of ANY “Christian” denomination could come together and be at peace”, who could do that? What would be involved? Would it ever really happen? Who would enforce that policy? How would they enforce it? What if some people within that society didn’t follow it? What would happen to them? Hmm, have you ever heard of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I think they pretty much agree with allowing everyone to worship God as their conscience dictates, although they do sometimes try to help people understand what God has revealed to them. They had one man among them who stated something about teaching people correct principles and then letting them govern themselves. This man also stated that whatever principles of intelligence we attain in this life will give us an advantage in the life to come. Nowhere did he or any of their other prophets ever teach that they should all go out and force people to accept what they believe. Some members of that church try to do that, but most believe that they should only try to help people understand their beliefs when it appears that other people really want to know. Yah, that would be nice. Nobody arguing with me when I say something. Everybody just happily accepting as truth whatever I tell them to be true. Either that or just leaving me alone to go on and on forever with my false beliefs and understanding. If I’m wrong, who does it hurt except me? You don’t suppose that other people are forced to believe what I tell them is true, do you? Why all the hubbub, bub? How would this brotherly attitude be manifest? What would these people be doing for each other, or with each other? Would there be any policies to govern righteous behavior about this issue? Me too. And from what I understand, that may be God’s version of a righteous society too. As long as people honor His laws, I don’t think it really matters to Him whether or not people are also citizens in His kingdom. Becoming a citizen in His kingdom has certain privileges and blessings, but nobody will be forced to do what God wants them to do other than to obey His laws. But hey, every other government expects that, don’t they?

Well, Scott, since I’m not in favor of trying to convince people that they should do what I think they should do, I will only say that this is a matter your wife needs to take up with her Lord. She is entitled to come up with her own religion, if she really wants to, but I hope what she really wants is to know what her Lord wants her to do, so she can do that. If she allows other people to prevent her from doing what her Lord assures her that she should do, she isn’t following anybody but herself, or her own ideas about what she should and should not be doing. And btw, I know from personal experience that sometimes some people in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints let their own personal ideas get in the way of what they should be doing, and I also know that the Church is better society of people when more people in this society are willing to discover and do what our Lord requires from us. We’re not all perfect, but the more of us who try, relying upon the mercy and power of our Lord to help us, the more of us there are to help strengthen and support other people as we all try to discover and do what our Lord requires from us. In other words, tell her not to freak out when she sees some people in the Church who aren’t perfect yet. There are people who do only what they want to do everywhere.

Heh, I see that I was misunderstood again, so I’ll try to clarify what I meant.Should we continue to talk to people about the truth if they don’t accept what we tell them? To what extent should we continue to talk to them, and what should we continue to talk about? If we can see that people clearly understand what we have already told them, and they keep responding with their own reasoning and rationalizations for refusing to accept what we tell them, when should we stop testifying and trying to explain what we know to be the truth? This question came up in my mind because I keep seeing people on this forum who seem to go on and on forever trying to help other people understand and accept what we tell them, even after they seem to clearly understand what we have already told them. Does that really do any good? If there is a limit to how much other people will accept what we tell them, or if there are certain issues we should focus on talking about first, maybe we should agree on what we should talk about and at what point we should stop talking to them when they don’t accept what we tell them? I first thought that if there are limits to what we should talk about with other people, or if there are certain issues that we should talk about first, that maybe we should focus on talking about the gospel and stop talking to those people about the gospel after it seems clear that they will not accept what we tell them about our knowledge of the gospel. But now I’m wondering why we should talk to other people about anything, after it seems clear that they don’t accept what we tell them. If people don’t accept what we tell them about one thing, why would they accept what we tell them about something else? I’d also like you to understand that I try to be a good neighbor to the people who live around me, most of whom are not LDS. One neighbor, who lives across the street from me, has a very nice shop in his garage and we often chat about the things he has made or is planning to make. He works with wood and metals, and I like to work with wood too, so we have a fairly good relationship because of that common interest. I also know that he is very active in his religion, and he knows that I am an active latter-day saint, and even though we sometimes talk about issues related to the gospel, we both only seem to talk about the issues that we know we both agree on. I did give him a video last Christmas, together with a plate of goodies that my wife had made, but since he has never talked about the video I have never talked about it either. I figure that he knows what I believe and that he knows that he can talk to me about my beliefs whenever he wants to, so I leave it up to him to bring those issues up. My reason for starting this thread was in hopes of getting some input and agreement about ideas concerning what we (LDS) should talk to other people about, and how much we should talk to them when it seems clear that they understand our beliefs, but still do not accept what we tell them. curvette, Your response is basically in agreement with what I believe, and I try to do that too. It’s good to see that we can agree about some things. :) Scott, I believe that brother of ours should have spoken with a lot more tact and concern for you and your wife, but I wasn’t there and am not sure that I understand all of the details concerning why he said what he said. If it had been me, based on the details you provided, I would have tried to help your wife understand that our Lord expects certain things from her, and that the so-called “trappings of church/religion” serve a purpose. That our Lord not only wants her to feel at peace with herself, but that He also wants other people to feel at peace with themselves. That “organized religion” is organized so that other people can find out what things our Lord requires from those of us who wish to follow Him, and that involves serving other people. It also involves meeting with other people who share common beliefs, to associate and be strengthened by each other, and that involves a place or places where we can meet together. A place that our children can associate with other children, and adults can associate with other adults, as we form and strengthen each other as a society of people who follow our Lord. A society of our Lord’s disciples on Earth that will someday be joined by a society of our Lord’s disciples in heaven, with our Lord coming someday soon to reign on Earth as our King. It’s not just about what she gets out of knowing God, it’s about helping other people to know God too, and if there is no organized way of doing that, then all is confusion.

If "witnessing" is defined simply as sharing the truth with someone who doesn't accept it, with the believer using scriptures for support, then I think most of us have witnessed to other people at some point in our lives. What I want to know is how we determine whether or not we should witness to other people? Should we be invited or asked a question first, or should we simply start spouting out everything we know while using the scriptures to support our position?

Why do we talk about the gospel with people? Is it because we are genuinely concerned about other people, with hopes that they will accept what we tell them, or do we simply like to talk about the gospel? If it’s because we’re genuinely concerned about other people, with hopes that they will accept what we tell them, are we careful to explain things so that the other people will understand us? Do we avoid ridiculing other people when they don’t seem to get it? What if other people do understand us and still do not accept what we tell them as truth? Is there a limit to how much we should share with other people who don’t accept what we tell them? And if so, are there some things we should concentrate on talking about first? It seems to me that we try awfully hard sometimes to convince other people that we are telling the truth, and that what we understand is what everyone else should understand. Why do we do that? Is that our job? Even if we could tell the truth in such a way that everyone could understand what we’re saying, with no misunderstandings at all, is our testimony and reasoning going to convince anyone that we know and are telling the truth? Is that even possible? I’ve given a lot of thought to this idea for quite a while now, and more and more I’m starting to see the wisdom in doing what we’ve been counseled to do when we talk about the gospel with others. When I only talk about the first principles of the gospel, taking care to testify and explain what Faith in Jesus Christ is all about, I’ve noticed that I can see pretty quickly whether talking about something else is worth my time. If someone doesn’t understand how they can know the truth, which is by receiving a testimony from the Holy Ghost, they will be always be able to come up with their own reasoning to explain things without ever coming one step closer to knowing the truth. They will always be able to come up with reasons why they shouldn’t change anything about themselves without ever knowing the true condition of their life. They will always be able to come up with reasons for believing whatever they believe because they neither know God nor how they can come to know the truth about Him. Can anyone tell me why we should talk to people like that or listen to anything they have to say?

Heh, did you skip over my last post, Tao? My parents and one of my sisters went through a divorce, so I had already given this issue a lot of thought before I even saw this thread.

Heh, by all means, move it. I only responded to it because I saw it here. :)

Getting God's assurance that you really shouldn't do something that you really want to do can be challenging, because your will is sometimes in opposition to His and you really don't want to know that you shouldn't be doing that something, but if you'll first try to find out if it's okay to do something, before you decide that you're going to do that something, it's a whole lot easier to do only what He assures you that you should be doing. Heh, did you follow that? :)

Btw, while we’re on “touchy” subjects, have you ever thought about the fact that our Lord did “that” too while He was here? Do you realize that He was that human? He also ate after His resurrection, and what do you suppose happened to the remains of that food? And what about clothes? Have you ever thought about the fact that our Lord wore clothes, both during and after His mortal life? He wasn’t running around naked after He was resurrected, you know. Have you ever wondered who made those clothes for Him? And what about the clothes that Adam and Eve were given? Who do you suppose made those clothes? Do you ever wonder if animals had to be killed for those skins? If the clothes were made out of cotton, or some other fabric, I would think that God would have simply told somebody to make Adam and Eve some coats, instead of “coats of skins”.

Heh, I guess some people need to be told how to do EVERYTHING. I know I wouldn't want to see and smell that stuff lying around, but I guess some people would rather put up with the stench instead of simply digging a hole and burying it.

Even if all of us are God, which in a sense is true, you still need to consider the idea that some of us are totally perfect, some of us are working on becoming perfect, and some of us are so totally satisfied with the way we are that we’re not even trying to become perfect. You do admit that some of us are different than others, don’t you? So what word do you use to refer to those of us who are totally perfect? What determines whether or not someone is totally perfect? If some of us are totally perfect, so that there is no more room for improvement, wouldn’t those of us who are totally perfect be in total agreement with everyone else who is totally perfect? You can’t have someone who is totally perfect who is in opposition to someone else who is totally perfect, can you? That would mean that one of those persons didn’t see something the right way, and still needed to learn what the other person already knows. Right? I’ll let you know something. Neither one of us is perfect yet, but someday I hope to be. I hope you’re working on that too. :)

You’re right, curvette, I didn’t see your statements condemning homosexuality. I never did judge you, but I did misunderstand what you were saying, and I apologize if you were offended. I was only trying to express that I know that homosexuality is wrong, and while I don’t expect other people to do what I say they should do, I do feel that I have the right to express my testimony and help other people understand what I believe and why I believe it. I hope my position on this issue is now clear. I’m always willing to respond to the beliefs of other people, including what appears to be your belief that divorce is totally wrong. Try to bear with me as I express my testimony about this issue now. While divorce is never a good thing, divorce is sometimes necessary, and our Lord does approve of someone’s decision to divorce under certain circumstances, such as adultery and abuse. When our Lord said that a man should not leave his wife except for adultery, He was not giving an all encompassing law concerning divorce. He was speaking about husbands leaving their wives, not wives leaving their husbands. He was speaking against a wife committing adultery against her husband, not a husband committing adultery against his wife. He meant that a husband should never leave his wife for any reason except those reasons out of his control, such as when his wife has committed adultery and is not willing to repent. To believe that a husband should be willing to remain with his wife when his wife is continuing to be unfaithful to him is just as ludicrous as believing that a husband should leave his wife when he is the one who has committed adultery. It is also ludicrous to believe that a husband should remain with his wife when his wife is continuing to beat him, or abuse him in any other way. I don’t believe it even entered our Lord’s mind at that time that a wife could be abusing her husband, such as beating him or mentally abusing him, because if He had considered that I’m sure He would have spoken a word against that too. Some people like to try to turn general counsel against one thing into explicit counsel against everything, supposing that they know the mind of the person(s) who gave that counsel when they really don’t. Instead of trying to understand the intent of our Lord’s counsel, some people try to interpret our Lord’s counsel only by the letter of the law, and words alone are seldom adequate. If we don’t understand exactly what someone means, we can easily misunderstand what they were talking about, and we can see evidence of that happening all around us every day. Our Lord wants us to repent of our sins and work them out with those persons who are offended, but when someone isn’t willing to repent of heinous sins, the offended person is left with no other righteous alternative but to leave that person. Our Lord loves us, and He does not expect us to remain with people who abuse us. If you don't understand what I was just now trying to say, I will be happy to respond with answers to your questions. Try not to assume that you know what I meant, unless the Holy Ghost bears witness to you that what you think I was saying is actually what I meant to say. Minimizing misunderstandings is now my #1 goal on this board. :)

In Eden. The garden of Eden was in Eden, on the east side of Eden. Get it now?

That's exactly what I'm doing. So repent and quit being so judgemental! I'm the one speaking out about the will of our Father in heaven, and you're the one speaking out about how people should do what makes them happy, so how is it that I am not the one doing the work of my Father? If I speak evil, you do well to witness against me, but if I do well, why do you persecute me? Do YOU ever take the time to share the truth with people?

While the six creative periods are referred to as days, I don’t know of any revelation that reveals how long those days were. I’ll list the creative periods for reference: 1) The Earth, void and without form, probably nothing more than a sphere 2) Water and Land, the Land being divided from the Waters 3) The Sun, Moon, and Stars were set to provide [proper] light to the Earth 4) Plant life 5) Animal life 6) Man and Woman As we can see, God called it a day (the first day) before the Sun was set in place, so I think it’s only speculation to assume that the Earth was on a 24-hour rotation at that time. And since there’s no way to know how long that day was, without revelation, I can certainly understand how someone CAN entertain the idea that evolution was involved. But then again, if God wanted to, I think He could command the elements to come into place at the very moment God spoke. For instance, when Jesus and Nephi calmed the storm and the seas, they spoke and it was done. And if you have Faith to move a mountain, I believe the mountain will move when you say so, not when the Earth decides that it’s time to move it. On the other point, I would say that Eve was the Mother of all living by being the Mother of all of us who were then living, not of all the animals. We were all there, looking forward to our opportunity to come to the Earth, and through Eve that opportunity was made possible.

You just don't get it. It doesn't matter what MY idea of personal righteousness is. I draw the line there because it's none of my damn business what they do if they both are happy with it! No, it is you who doesn’t get it. As a latter-day saint, you made a covenant to do everything you can to help establish Zion on Earth, even if that means sacrificing your life to do so. If you don’t speak out in this world, by voting and sharing your beliefs with others, you will be held accountable for letting a lot of opportunities just slip by. If you don’t know the truth, that’s one thing, and for that I recommend that you ask God to confirm the truth to you. If you know the truth and then do or say nothing when you have the opportunity to share your beliefs, and you do have that opportunity in this forum, then you’re not doing any good and you’re actually doing harm. Stop making excuses for people and stand up for the truth!

Scott, Someday, when you’re standing before God, asking yourself why nobody on Earth tried to help you understand the truth, I hope you’ll remember that I did. I also hope that in the days between now and then you’ll reflect some more on the things you’ve heard from the other people who have told you the truth, and that you’ll someday ask God to confirm that we have spoken the truth. I know, I know, more Faith stuff, but sharing what I know to be true, with love, is all I can do for you. :)

I draw the line where people are consenting adults. Why do you draw the line there? Is that your personal idea of righteousness? That as long as people are consenting, and as long as they’re adults, they should be able to do whatever they want to do sexually? I hope you someday come to know that your own ideas and reasoning is in opposition to the will of our Father in heaven. Your ideas may make sense to you, and you may think that everyone else should think like you, but I know that God doesn’t, and me neither.

This is the way I think about it: We were all created in heaven as children of our Father in heaven. We all knew Him and wanted to be like Him, or at least have some of the qualities that He has, so He planned to create this Earth for us to live on. Our life on Earth was said to be necessary so that we would have the opportunity to prove that we were willing to do what our Father taught us to do, without being intimidated or unduly influenced by His presence. Once away from His presence, He knew that most of us would disobey His counsel at least once during our life on Earth, but He said that one of us must come to Earth and do everything that our Father commanded. He then asked who He should send, and two people were mentioned. The first said that he would do what our Father had proposed, giving glory to our Father for the plan. The second had another idea, which essentially involved compelling us to obey our Father’s counsel, and He wanted the glory for being able to accomplish it. This second plan was in opposition to plan presented by our Father, because He wanted us to choose to do His will, so He chose to send the first. The creation of the Earth then began and the One who was chosen was given a prominent role by our Father. The person chosen was the person we now know as Jesus, and his role was to act as God over the Earth. The person whose plan was rejected is the person we now know as Lucifer, and he is still in opposition to the plan of our Father. In the beginning, Jesus didn’t have all of the qualities of our Father in heaven, but he was as close as any one of us could be. He now is exactly like our Father in heaven, not only because He still does everything that our Father has taught us to do, but because he also has all the qualities of our Father in heaven. All the rest of us can still become like our Father in heaven, but we must rely upon Jesus to cleanse us from our sins through His atonement, but Jesus did it all Himself, because He was totally obedient. And because of that, He now has the glory our Father gave Him. Anyway, as I said, that’s how I think about it. I could have added some more details too, but I was trying to make it as simple to understand as possible.

Oh please Ray. Can't you see a difference between a grown man molesting a helpless child and a grown man engaging in sexual relations with another grown man consentually? I would have every child molester put to death if I could. I think it's a sin of incomparable depravity. The child has no choice in the matter. How can you put that in the same category as consentual homosexuality? If you really can't see the difference than you need help. But what if the little girl was given the choice. What if it wasn’t a violent molestation? What if the man made it sound appealing, and the girl agreed to do it because she loved the man? What if the man was her father, and she did it because she loves him? What if the whole family grew up with the idea that that was okay, and the children continued that tradition in their own families? In other words, do you only think it’s wrong if you think about violence? What if two consenting people agree? WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?

People can have friends who are the same sex without being homosexual, so why be homosexual? What is gained? Are people homosexual merely because they have that sexual desire? Is that why they should be homosexual, so that they can fulfill that homosexual desire? Why do you call a homosexual couple a “family”? Are you trying to redefine that word now too? I say that the family is the basic unit of society, and that the family contributes to what society becomes. How does being homosexual contribute to society? I’m not asking about any other things that homosexuals can do that can be considered good, I’m asking about what good is or can be done merely by being homosexual? If all people were homosexual, society would collapse. If only some people are homosexual, society won’t collapse, but homosexuality certainly doesn’t contribute to the welfare of society, does it? To believe that homosexuality contributes to society is like believing that people should do what they want to do because that’s what they want to be happy, and if all people are happy, then society is okay. But is that really the way it would work? What if the happiness of one group of people negatively influences the happiness of other groups of people in society? How would we determine who should be allowed to be happy, and who should alter their behavior because their happiness is having a negative influence on others? Would it help society if one group of people shut everyone out of their lives because what they do has a negative influence on their lives, with people making their life exactly the way they want it in their own homes, but when they go out in society, watch out, because You never know what you might see or what other people might do? Is that really how you want society to be? Or maybe everyone just learn to accept whatever anyone does and wants to do as long as it makes someone happy? Is that what you want? I envision heaven as a place where I will see only good things happening, with society in total agreement about what is good. It just wouldn’t be heaven if people had opposing views about things, because there would be no agreement about how things should be. Hopefully someday the Earth will become like that too.

I will contend that your basing your reasoning on a mighty big IF. I will contend that homosexuality is no more a matter of biology than the urge to engage in any other kind of sexually deviant behavior, or anything else that comes from a “natural” desire. The natural man has been an enemy of God since the beginning of time, and always will be, unless he yields to the promptings of the Holy Ghost. Doing something just because it feels good, or just because you feel naturally inclined to do it, isn’t a valid excuse for anything. If some scientists could determine that some men naturally have a sexual attraction to young little girls, would you say that those men have the right to do what they want to do? If someone feels they should be able to express their love to their whole family through sexual relations with each and every one of them, by what they say is an expression of love, do you suppose that the rest of us on this world are going to say that they should have the right to do that? Why do we say that a person must be a certain age before they can be married? Why do we say that a person can’t have more than one spouse? Where do we draw the line? By what Man determines should be “legal”? I woke up this morning to the news on the radio, as I usually do, and I heard some more talk from Multnomah County representatives about the homosexual marriage legislation that was recently passed around here in Portland Oregon. One person stated something like “Once you see the happiness that comes to these people simply by being allowed to marry, you’ll know that there is no harm being done to the world by this.” How preposterous. Just because people appear to be happy when they are allowed to do something doesn’t make what they are doing a good thing. Wickedness never was happiness, and it never will be. If people don’t come to realize the consequences to their actions during this life period, they will come to know it eventually, and there will be nothing but shame and grief to everyone who comes to realize that they have done something wrong.

I have already shown 3 disadvantages to being homosexual. Can anyone provide 3 advantages to being homosexual? How about 1? An increased wardrobe might be 1 advantage, IF your partner’s body happens to be the same size as yours, but members of the opposite sex can wear the same clothes too if their bodies happen to be the same size, so I don’t see that as being an advantage. I challenge anyone to provide 1 real advantage gained merely by being homosexual that is totally distinct from any advantage you can gain by merely being heterosexual. You can either think in terms of being single, or having a partner. Any takers?

People who don't know that God is worthy of our worship just don't know God. There are a slew of misunderstandings out there. I also want to bring out the point that no matter how many other good things people do, if people do something wrong, it is still wrong. And for those of you who still don't realize it, homosexuality is wrong.

I used the word “You” to help anyone who might be able to put themselves in the mindset of a homosexual person. It’s like saying, if “You” do this, this will happen, or this is one of the disadvantages that I can see if You make that choice. If I had realized it would have been that difficult for anyone to know what I was trying to say, I would have tried to clarify what I meant. Oh well, I’ll try to do better next time, but realize that when I write something on this message board, I’m doing so to help “Anyone” who reads what I write, because for all I know, this might be read by someone who doesn’t know a lot of things that I know. Btw, I also know that there are some people in this world who are same sex attracted. You just didn’t know that I know that. There are a lot of other things that I know that you don’t know that I know too, so try not to make any assumptions about what I do and don’t know from now on, okay? I may even know some things that You have never thought about. There’s one more point I’d like to clarify here too, even though The Traveler could express these thoughts a lot better than I can. People are not forced into being homosexuals. Do you realize that? People may have “natural” sexual thoughts and desires, but nobody is forced to act on any of those desires. I think that if more people realized the consequences of their actions, they would make more of the right choices, including the choice about what to do with their sexual impulses. For instance, if a man feels “naturally” inclined to want to sleep with lots of women, does that mean that he should? Should a man do what he is naturally inclined to do, regardless of the consequences? What makes a homosexual desire any different? If it’s good, do it, but not just because it feels good. The line between what is right and what is wrong needs to be drawn and clearly understood. The excuse that it’s in Your nature shouldn’t be a valid excuse. And FYI, if I knew that being homosexual was a good way to be, I might choose to be a homosexual too, or maybe bisexual, but I really don’t see what good that would do, and I can see a LOT of disadvantages.