DigitalShadow
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Posts posted by DigitalShadow
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DS are you really sincere in receiving that answer? What changes have you made in your life to become intuned with the Holy Spirit?
I am sincere that my intuition tells me all religions are wrong. Every time I try to listen, that is the only answer I receive. I go to church with my wife and we are reading through the BoM (although slowly). I was pondering fasting at the suggestion of people here but I haven't arranged that yet.
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Your situation can be rectified, but you cannot come to know God while insisting on using the means that make sense to your mind. That may seem logical to you -- but that matters very little if your GOAL is to come to know God and know that He exists.
That's the problem, my goal is not to come to know THAT God exists, it is to come to know IF God exists. In science your goal is to find out whether something is true, not just to assure yourself of something you already know is true. If my goal were, for example, to know THAT Zeus exists and I were to pray dilligently for years and convince myself that Zeus exists, I'm sure I would have a spiritual experience reaffirming that Zeus does indeed exist. People have religious experiences every day born out of a desire to have them. How do I know this? Because of the multitude of religions out there with conflicting messages and each of them have true believers that felt God tell them their particular church is true.
Many of us are here sharing with you the HOW. And you keep saying, "Well, I'm not so sure about that." Our answer is not going to change no matter how many times you ask the same question.
No, many of the people at this forum are sharing what worked for them (and I do appreciate it). I'm not saying that I'm "not so sure about that." I'm saying that it's not working for me. I'm simply trying to approach religion objectively just as I approach everything else in life. If it is impossible to find religion through objective means, then maybe it is impossible for me to find religion, that doesn't mean I can't try though.
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You're killin' me smalls!!
But that was my point in my reply. Our intuitions all tell us different and conflicting things that are suspiciously similar to what we learned growing up and what we have already experienced in our lifetimes which leads me to believe they are simply a product of how we grew up. Even assuming that is wrong and that our intuition is a connection the the Spirit leaves me even worse off because my intuition tells me that all religions are wrong
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Gotta love the gospel according to the wiki god.
Heh, sorry, wikipedia has become a part of my consciousness now. I'm almost never without my laptop so any time I'm curious about something I just wiki it and get the opinions of other people. Obviously not everything from there is accurate and I don't take it as Gospel, but there is a suprising amount of information there.
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Hey DS! How ya doing? I am good today.
You are not discounting my feelings at all. I am actually glad that you see these feelings as intuition. Yeah! Common ground! I understand how you would view that as a subconscious response. I can also see that nurturing.... upbringing can shape beliefs. I get that. For the sake of the experiment though, perhaps you could assume that those feelings come from the spirit. What do you think?
Assuming those feelings are from from the spirit just leads me to believe that the spirit wants me to be agnostic, my wife to be LDS and my friend to be Catholic. That leaves me right where I started
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I do believe after reading the last five pages, DS, you are seeking the 'utlimate answer' to that question.
The truth is the 'ultimate answer' and that is what I'm seeking. Each of us seek it out in our own way.
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I was thinking today how I feel the Spirit. To show how I can tell the difference between it and my own thoughts and emotions. I find it very difficult to describe. I think first of that list TomK put up earlier in the thread, peace, love, patience, etc. And I think it is important to note that those are the fruits of the Spirit -- not necessarily the Spirit itself, even though I hear people using those words to describe their spiritual experience. I think that can cloud the understanding of things until one gets the process. Then it makes sense when you feel peace or more love or more patience.
The Spirit for me does many things. It tells me truth. That feels like words coming into my mind. Sometimes it feels like a strong assurance or warning feeling. Other times I get random spiritual communications. Like a sudden feeling about one of my kids. Or a direction or command about some thing I need to do in the future. It is usually an idea I hadn't thought of before. Or perhaps it is a reminder of something I already knew but forgot. I remember one time a college boyfriend asked me to marry him. Completely unsolicited came a voice in my left ear stating, "That's not him!" Other times hymns or other inspirational songs come into my mind. Father uses the lyrics to comfort or answer my prayers. I sometimes find myself humming a tune and realize the words are in answer to my prayer. Most of the time I feel the Spirit teach me in the scriptures --- and even change my heart as I read. I may be angry about something and I will read some passage and the Spirit will help me convert my feelings into ones of understanding, patience or forgiveness. This feeling is almost impossible to describe. All I can say is that it happens. Sometimes the spirit cuts to my very soul. That usually happens when I have sinned badly. Those times aren't that fun.
I guess what I am trying to share is the diversity with which I feel and experience the influence of the Holy Ghost. And maybe show how I know it isn't my emotions ormy thoughts.
When I get feelings like that, I usually attribute it to intuition. I think that there are processes that happen in your unconscious mind that sometimes bubble up to your conscious thoughts when they are relevant. I hesitate to attribute those feelings to the Spirit because my intuition tells me that religion in general is wrong. I think that my intuition originates from my upbringing just as my wife's intuition telling her the LDS church is true most likely comes from her upbringing and my best friend's intuition that the Catholic church is true most likely comes from his upbringing.
I'm certainly not trying to discount your feelings of the Spirit, and I could very well be completely wrong about everything. I'm just trying to show you how the world looks and feels from my perspective.
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My answer to this is found here:
(1 Cor 2)
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
"if the Book of Mormon makes little sense as an ancient text"
for they are foolishness unto him:
"why do you still consider it modern revelation?"
neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You keep asking: WHY WHY WHY :)
To which I answer:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God.
DS, until you receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, many of these things will not make sense to you.
I don't make the rules. This is the path God has placed in front of each of us.
You will continue to "not get" things like the Book of Mormon, etc., until you become willing to follow the path the Lord has outlined for "getting it."
I know from other discussions, you are TRYING to understand. I am just trying to explain WHY you don't.
I do appreciate your efforts to explain this concept to me, but I think I understand your answer now, which is why I am no longer pestering you about it. However, not everyone has the same answer to this question and I thought that since Ray seems to have a line of logic similar to my own, he might have his own insight toward the merging of logic and "spirituality" since he seems to have no problem with these logical issues with the Book of Mormon but also seems to have faith.
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The Book of Mormon makes little sense as an ancient text, and even Mr. Magoo on ecstasy can see that. Yet, I still consider it a modern revelation.
As a non-member investigating the church, I would have to say I agree with your logic and your arguments echo many of the concerns I have discovered when trying to research the historical aspect of the Book of Mormon.
So I have to ask you, if the Book of Mormon makes little sense as an ancient text, why do you still consider it modern revelation?
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You're right, the discussion has been derailed a bit from your original question.
Just to clarify, I was joking with MissHalfway earlier, I wasn't really upset that the thread has been so derailed, just commenting on the comedy of it :)
But I do very much appreciate your (and others) honest answers to the original post's questions.
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Working my way thru piles of laundry. I am always amazed at the damage four kids can do.
Wish I had some good questions for you today. But frankly I am all questioned out! Read anything interesting?
My wife and I were lazy this weekend, we had friends over and played video games most of the weekend (Rock Band is fun).
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Hey DS, How you doing today?
At work and mildly bored as usual, how about you?
(This thread has become so derailed that it might as well be an IRC channel now)
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The only point of discussion that baffles me is your belief that you have never felt this before. This flys in the face of what I believe. I believe that every person is capapble of knowing right from wrong. Every person is able to detect TRUTH. God does speak to you. He is no respecter of persons. He does not love one person more than another. So if we cannot feel His response when we are seeking it, the problem must be on OUR END.
And the part of your belief that baffles me is that God is omnipotent, and he speaks to everyone, and if we are seeking to talk to Him and not feeling a response it is somehow on "our end." How can it be on "our end" if God created us and should know exactly what is needed for us to at least "hear" Him?
Here is an example of how it "feels" to have God speak to you:
...
-love
-joy
-peace
-longsuffering
-gentleness
-goodness
-faith
-meekness
-temperance
Can you identify times in your life when you have felt any of the above?
I have experienced all of those except faith. Those are well documented human experiences that are as old as language itself though. I'm not sure that in itself convinces me God is communicating with me or at least trying.
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I'm not trying to scare you. I just don't want you to "sleep through class" as it were, during your mortality. It's between you and God. I am trying to invite and entice you to search out God and stop being so concerned about being misled. By refusing to seek Him out, but instead waiting for Him to give you evidence, you are being deceived anyway!! Your fears are coming to pass by your inaction.
I think you are misunderstanding, I am not refusing to seek him out, if that were the case I wouldn't be here discussing with you. Let's recap. I'm seeking knowledge of God, you're telling me "He's right here! don't you see!" and I'm saying "No, sorry, I can't see or feel anything different" and then you say "You're refusing to seek him out!"
I'm not being held back by a fear of being mislead, I'm being held back because I just don't feel what you all are feeling. I don't know why, and I really wish I could, but I simply can't. I'm taking the steps, learning as much as I can about various religions, but I still don't FEEL God anywhere.
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WARNING: ONLY church publications carrying the words 'Copyright of the First Presidency' are official doctrine of the church. Be careful whom and what you quote as doctrine. Much is 'One man's Opinion", only that copyright is accepted as doctrine, no matter who wrote it. IE Mormon Doctrine by B R McKoncie(?) is NOT official doctrine, good as it is.
That said, there is no doctrine I'm aware of that says specifically that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri.
I await correction eagerly. The apparent reason for people thinking the Garden was in Mesopotamia is due to the name of a river. A co-incidence, perhaps-I do not know.
I'm confused, who from the church even said the Garden of Eden was in Missouri in the first place?
And what did they base it on?
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It will be your choice, and everyone, including you, will be given a fair chance to do this with full knowledge of what they are doing. My only concern is -- is that happening now -- or are you not accountable?
Given that I haven't seen or felt any evidence that would distinguish this church from any of the other churches aside from it making a bit more logical sense, I hardly see how that would be a fair chance with full knowledge. Please don't go the route of many other churches take by trying to scare me into belief with false condemnations, I've heard that before many times.
What other doctrines make sense to you, beside our concept of degrees of glory?
The idea that if God were to send down His only begotten son, He would visit other places as well makes sense as well.
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What are some things you have learned about the LDS faith that "feel good" to you?
What doctrines "make sense" to you?
The fact that you believe people who don't believe in your religion don't simply go straight to hell when they die. I would have to say that the tiered afterlife makes the most sense to me of all the religions. I also like that the church encourages learning aside from just the spiritual and embracing science (maybe not all the members, but the general message from the church does at least).
In general, the LDS faith makes the most sense to me of any religion, but still the idea that none of them are right makes more sense to me.
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That would be enough for the Lord to let you know the truth of these things. The only thing that might get in the way is -- what is in your heart while you do these things. I know people who go to Church and read their scriptures and still are no closer to having a relationship with the Lord than they were 30 years ago (I was one of those people).
The only thing that is in my heart is an honest searching for the truth. If you say that my heart must unquestioningly believe before I will receive answers, then I say it is impossible for me. Unfortunately my heart is as skeptical as my mind, it wants to feel evidence before it will believe, just as my mind wants to see evidence.
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Have you ever or are you now praying to God for an answer to your questions concerning him and the right church?
I have
In your mind, where did you come from prior to being born?
I think my consciousness developed as the neural pathways grew while I was in my mother's womb. I don't really think I was anywhere before I was born.
Why are you here on earth now?
I don't know, maybe no reason, maybe that is for us to figure out, but I'm glad I am here.
Were do you think you will go once you die ?
Either into nothingness, or to the end place of whichever religion "got it right."
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Indeed. Fasting is an outward exercise of faith based on the principle of sacrifice and humility. That would help as well and bring your closer.
Hadn't really thought of that, how would one go about it? Just stop eating completely? I'm assuming you still drink water regularly? Seems like there may be health ramifcations if done improperly, I don't know, I've never looked into it.
Any links on safe fasting practices would be appreciated.
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I'll I can say to that is, you are waiting for something you don't have to wait for. You can have the answers you seek answered much much sooner.
The Book of Mormon anticipated that there would be people like you, sitting around "waiting for God to prove it to them" their whole lives. Take a look at this:
[[ Note: DS is you below (DigitalShadow) ]]
1 Nephi 15:
1 And it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had been carried away in the spirit, and seen all these things, I returned to the tent of my father.
2 And it came to pass that I beheld my brethren, and they were disputing one with another concerning the things which my father had spoken unto them.
3 For he truly spake many great things unto them, which were hard to be understood, save a man should inquire of the Lord; and they being hard in their hearts, therefore they did not look unto the Lord as they ought.
"which were hard to be understood [by DS]"
"save a man [DS] should inquire of the Lord"
4 And now I, Nephi, was grieved because of the hardness of their hearts, and also, because of the things which I had seen, and knew they must unavoidably come to pass because of the great wickedness of the children of men.
5 And it came to pass that I was overcome because of my afflictions, for I considered that mine afflictions were great above all, because of the destruction of my people, for I had beheld their fall.
6 And it came to pass that after I had received strength I spake unto my brethren, desiring to know of them the cause of their disputations.
7 And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive-tree, and also concerning the Gentiles.
8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?
9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.
"The Lord maketh no such thing known unto us"
which is another way of saying, "He didn't spell it out for us. Why won't He just spell-it-out for us? He's all powerful, so why can't He do it?"
See the parallel, here?
10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?
11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.
-not harden your hearts
-ask [God] in faith
-believing that ye shall receive
-with diligence in keeping my commandments
surely these things shall be made known unto you.
DS, you may say "God has made no such thing known unto you" but you cannot say "God has not given me the tools so that He can make these things known unto me" -- for He has.
You have the tools necessary. They have been given to you in these discussions.
The choice is yours! Will you act on this information, or disregard it?
I have asked the Lord and received nothing. Rather than just assuming no one is there, I'm giving the church the benefit of the doubt and waiting for the Lord to respond in His own time. Are you suggesting there is more than I can/should do, and if so, what?
Edit: Before you ask, I already am reading the BoM and going to church weekly with my wife.
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When Christ was crucified and was dead three days, He preached His gospel in the Spirit World to those who had never had the chance to hear His word, especially those that died in the flood of Noah:
1 Pet. 3: 18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Pet. 4: 6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
DigitalShadow, this work is still going on in the Spirit World today. All those people in other countries that you mention who never had the chance in this life will have that chance. Our loving Father in Heaven really has thought of everything. We have but to seek it out while we can.
It seems to me that the most logical solution is to simply wait for the spirit world then. I know you say that is not what God wants us to do and I would "fail" the mortal test, but all I have to go on are the words of men who have their own agenda and way of looking at the world. I'll wait until God deems it time to speak to me and tell me what to do, but for now I haven't personally seen or "felt" any compelling reason to believe in a religion yet.
From an agnostic's perspective (the only perspective I can speak for), it seems like everyone tends to believe what they were taught as a child with few exceptions. Also most of the exceptions seem to be people either changing faiths or leaving the faith, I've never known anyone raised atheist who later joined a religion (I'm not talking about the rebellious teenagers who denounce their religion only to later come back to what they have been raised to believe.) Obviously that is not proof of anything, but to me it suggests that religion is simply a construct of man with varying myths passed through the generations going back as far as history itself. I would wager to guess that nearly everyone here disagrees with me, but that is what "feels" right to me just as your faith "feels" right to you.
I enjoy our discussions here and do feel like I'm learning a lot. I certainly hope that my suspicions on the world are wrong and that there is a universal truth delivered to us by God and I will continue waiting to receive it.
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I don't know why God hasn't blessed you with this knowledge yet. I can only guess. This past year, my suffering became so profound that I questioned everything about my faith. I questioned the existence of a God. I questioned the LDS church and every church in my defiance and thru the tears of my pain. I prayed. Months went by. No answers. Why? I would ask myself? What have I done? Doesn't He care? Why wouldn't he answer and deliver me?
I can't share with you how the knowledge came to me on this forum. But I can tell you that God was there! Even when I didn't know it. He has answered my prayers. He left me alone for a time so that I would learn. And learn I did! I know He exists and that he loves me and that I am indeed on the right path. My knowledge is so sure, I cannot escape it. I argue with it some days cause I don't like all that the truth brings sometimes. But I cannot deny it. Believe me. I have tried!
I can't prove it to you. I sometimes wonder why I insist on trying. I admit it. It is because I am a sentimental fool and I care. But I absolutely know! And I say it from the depth of my humility. And I pray in my heart that you someday will feel the spirit that I feel. Be believing, DS. Put your doubt and logic and your need to see evidence to the side. It will always be there. But it doesn't serve you now, so discipline it like you would a child with gentle understanding as you say, "not right now". Broken heart, contrite spirit! Even if you don't know how to .... or even if every part of your nature objects! Be believing and go the distance in that believing....... God will meet you there!
You are a very compassionate person and from the depths of my heart I wish I could believe even if only because I know how much it would mean to you. However it seems like every time I try, I get a thought in the back of my mind that tells me "what makes this religion special among all others? They all make as much sense as the next, they all claim to be true and they all say different things." It speaks to me just as clear as the forces that tell you your religion is true. You can tell me it is "Satan" trying to lead me away from the light, but I find it far more likely that it's just my scientific upbrining telling me to test things through experiment rather than faith. Whatever the case, I promise you that I will remain with an open mind (and heart) and wait for God to make his presence known unto me. I say a lot of things on this forum and may seem antagonistic at times, but the keep in mind that I'm still here and I'm still seeking the truth in my own way.
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We reap what we sow. In each case, if His children had been obedient He would not have done those things. In each case, there were multiple warnings beforehand. They were given every chance to repent. Back then, just like now, God will not interfere with our agency. Signs do not bring out faith or obedience in man. Signs harden our hearts, they don't soften them. God won't give you the evidence BEFORE you exercise faith in Him, because that is the way it works...and even God Himself is bound to follow eternal law. We have to desire to know Him.
I do desire to know Him and maybe I just don't have enough faith, but what I'm curious about now is all the people in other countries who were born and died without hearing a word of the gospel. God won't give evidnece without faith, but how can they have faith in something they have never heard of? I realize that is why you have missionaries and all, but doesn't that seem rather cruel and unusual of God? Why not just send a savior to every culture with the same message?
How deep do you believe?
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
I've been with my wife around a year and a half and I think somewhere around the time we were dating is when I started investigating the church.