[How deep do you believe?]

Is logic the only side to your personality? Can you think of an experience in your life where logic doesn't apply? Like babysitting little girlie girls? Or grieving for the loss of a loved one?

Of course I have emotions, maybe not to the same degree as most people, but logically I can attribute them to the chemicals being released in my brain as programmed response to certain stimulus.

Logic doesn't apply to every aspect of my life, but it does apply to all things in my brain accepted as "probably true."

[How deep do you believe?]

DS, Are you really looking for a reason not to join or do you just not love your wife? I am just asking. I mean the church is pretty much like all others, except that we believe in family forever. Let's say you join the church, what do you think will happen? I have never heard, seen or other wise heard of any cermonies that would make you cut a toe off in order to show your loyalty. All they ask is you pray (talk out loud to God), read scriptures and make yourself a better person. They don't take your little girls and marry off to weirdos, They do teach them to help others and show them how to become a member of society that doesn't just take, but that gives and is unselfish.

If you look at the church from the out side circle, like what attracted you to your wife? What made you say hi for the first time? Was it that you knew she would say hi back? Or was it that she posessed a simple beauty that put you in awe. I sense that you have a true fear that you are either not worthy or do not want to fail. You never know whether you choose the right or wrong until after you have choosen. It is worth it in the end, but until you are done with the game you can not have the prize.

Hope you can find a peace that will allow you to understand the real truth. God Bless You.

Just so you know, I would best be described as agnostic, so saying the church is like all others does not really help my belief in it. Also, I do attend church with my wife and I've seen the good the church does which is why I'm even investigating in the first place. I love my wife more than anything and would do anything for her. I will follow the moral teachings of the church and even give up things like alcohol (not that I was a big drinker in the first place) because it makes her happy. The only problem is that I will not lie and say that I believe when I simply don't have faith. My wife knows this and hopes I come around eventually but wouldn't want to force her beliefs on me any more than I want to force my lack of belief on her.

[How deep do you believe?]

Breaking point..... hmmm...... From what I understand of science, it would have to do a heck of a lot better at the reliability factor for me to believe any conclusions. Most conclusions of science are temporary. Don't they need a lot of shoulders to stand on?? That circumstance won't change. And even if all the scientists got together and said there was not evidence of the bofm, I would probably guess some anti group funded the study.

It would take God himself telling me it were untrue. But you know, He has told me over and over and over again.... even last night, that it IS true. There is no other document or experience or person, that could take the place of what the book has come to mean to me. It has power beyond its words to open the mind and heart and spirit. DS, know what I wish? I wish you would read it. Everyday for a period of months. I wish you would weigh it and study it and search it and rip it to shreds with your questions. Read it from the perspective of changing your character.... making you a better man than you already are. Read it with your wife, and with the study guide and the docs from BYU to supplement. And then read the D&C with the same tenaciousness. And keep praying every day. Demand answers (humbly of course) Need the answers. Want the answers. Want it so bad you can't sleep. Keep doing it even if you feel like a complete moron while you kneel in your stripped pj's. Just see what happens.

You distrust science because of its uncertainty but you trust "spiritual knowledge" despite its uncertainty (why do so many different people have different spiritual knowledge revealed to them as the truth?). I have not experienced spiritual knowledge so scientific knowledge is all I have to go on for now.

By the way... I am reading the Book of Mormon (yes, it's kind of slow going) with my wife which led to me asking her questions which she admitted to not knowing the answers to which led me to the bishop who didn't really get what I was asking which led me to here.

[How deep do you believe?]

Is logic the only side to your personality?

Going back as far as I remember, I can't remember thinking any other way. I was a very odd child as you can imagine.

[How deep do you believe?]

DS, what would it take for you to believe? You are asking us, but isn't the real answer inside of you?

Even if you got all the scientific evidence in the world that there was indeed a man named Jesus and that he did indeed come to the America's, I venture to say that you still would find reason not to believe. Man's understanding of this world is, and you said it yourself, limited. And even if it weren't, you still wouldn't be able to believe. Laman and Lemuel, two characters in the book actually saw angels and still wouldn't believe.

You need to look inward and decide what it would take to open your mind to the spiritual. Understanding and recognizing the Spiritual communications of God is the only way any of us "know".

If there were indeed that much scientific evidence, I would gladly accept the Jesus-God theory. But as to whether I'd have faith in it, you're right, I still wouldn't. I don't see the benefit in closing your mind to other theories through faith. If it's true, you shouldn't need to close your mind to other ideas. Faith has always seemed like a convenient catch-all for religion to me. As much as I explored it so far, I haven't found anything more to it. It works for some people and that's great, but I haven't been able to get it to work for me.

I've tried to look "inward" but when I do, all I find is more layers of logical thinking. I figure that if God wanted to communicate something to me, with Him being omnipotent and all, He wouldn't have any trouble getting the message across.

[How deep do you believe?]

My knowledge of the BofM is much more than a historical account of people and places and whatever footprint they may or may not have left behind. It is the kind of knowledge that can't be obtained in a "one time" reading. It comes after millions of little answers as I study. It comes from moments or seasons in my life where I needed direction and went to the book for answers. It comes from studying and pondering the people, their character, their example and then applying to my own life to see what will happen. And then it is tasting the fruit of obedience myself. I believed the BofM from the time I was small. But the sure knowledge you are talking about has come to me over time with much disciplined study and application.

I know that the BoM is much more than a historical account, but that doesn't change the fact that it also claims to be a historical count. My question was whether it would change your faith if the historical aspect of it was shown to be false and how much it would take for that to happen for you.

DS, don't know if you are married or have kids. But do you love your wife or child? or let's say your mother or a sibling? How do you know you love them? Can you prove it? Measure it? Document it? How on earth do you know yourself that you do feel such a thing? Can you get your mother in law to believe it just because you say it? If someone came out of the science community and said that love is not possible for humans to feel, would it make you stop loving them?

I am married and I do not have kids. I know that my wife loves me, but that is not to say I know that with unquestioned certainty in the face of evidence to the contrary. For instance if I were to catch my wife cheating on me, I would understandably question her love for me and possibly rethink that assumption. I was just wondering if there is a similar breaking point for religious faith and what it might be.

[How deep do you believe?]

Just to clarify to everyone, in my original post I did not claim that I have personally found evidence AGAINST the BoM, I simply stated that I haven't personally found any evidence FOR the BoM. There is a big difference. Also note that the questions are entirely hypothetical so please don't draw any conclusions on my opinion from them. They merely represent my thoughts lately about the strength and reasons for faith.

[How deep do you believe?]

Your second statement is based on proposition practices of others [DNA, Archeology]. There is no real underlining bullet proof evidence to say otherwise. Now, did any of them care to ask GOD, to validate there work as Joseph Smith did when questioning other religions? Unlikely! Or perhaps – faithless! We simply don’t know the whole facts on whom, what, when, where, why different groups of people came to this land by the hands of the Savior; beside those listed in the BOM. Even to understand the ruins has raised eyebrows. What would you do when you hated those of another major tribe who built those cities and when finally emptied, occupy the space? Do some research in the BOM and then research the succeeding Egyptians Pharaohs who despised the last reigning monarch.

I was not saying that there exists evidence AGAINST the BoM, I was simply saying that I haven't found any emperical evidence FOR the BoM. In the hypothetical question I was asking IF there were overwhemling scientific evidence specifically against the BoM (there is not, hence the hypothetical part) if it would change your views.

Your third statement, if you had such a machine, you will be shock to find more than the Nephites and Lamanites in the Americas. If may scare you for life…lol

Interesting, but you did not answer my question. To answer your reversal of my question, I wouldn't be shocked, I would simply say, thank you God, there is the evidence I've been looking for to believe in something. So how would you react to my original question?

There is no uncertainty here, as there is no uncertainty in truth. Truth remains before God was called into existence and will remain after. Now the so-called uncertainty dogma is of man. Are you willing to give up the world and through sincerity, ask for the answer? Or what are your true intentions of being on this forum?

My true intentions of being on this forum are nothing more or less than I have stated before, to seek the truth.

[How deep do you believe?]

And yet you question the BofM with unquestioning certainty that it is not true. At least that's what I gather from your posts. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but that's what I see in your post.

Yes, you are wrong. Maybe you only skimmed my posts or heard what you wanted to hear from them but I have only ever been in search of the truth. Failing to see evidence is not the same as unquestioning certainty that something is false.

For me, it would take God himself saying that it wasn't true.

And how does God talk to you if I might ask? Feelings? Voices in your head? How are those distinguishable from all the other people who God tells conflicting things to? Those people "just know" it is for real, yet some of them obviously have to be wrong.

I've only ever claimed that I haven't seen or felt evidence for God and that I'll remain skeptical until I receive ANY kind of evidence to base my faith on. Without that it would simply be blind faith.

[How deep do you believe?]

I've been thinking about this recently after reading some posts on this forum and other forums I frequent, so I figured I would discuss it here. Feel free not to answer if this topic makes you uncomfortable or you are offended by it.

I'll start off by saying that I like to think that I've got an open mind. I'm not a member, but I'm not from another religion either. I have no vested interest in the BoM being true or false. I've been investigating the historical aspects of BoM lately at the urging of my wife and neighbors. I've looked at both sides and read a great deal of arguments and from my perspective the stories in the BoM are completely unsubstantiated by genetic and archeological data. This is not to say it proves they didn't happen, just that I (personally)haven't found any convincing evidence that they did happen. That is beside the point though, it is only what inspired the question. I don't want to discuss evidence, lack of evidence, or counter evidence, there are plenty of other threads for that.

What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?" Is there anything that could convince you that the BoM is not true? If so, what? If not, why? I'll give a couple hypothetical examples to elaborate on the question. If there were convincing scientific evidence (convincing to you, whatever that may take) that the BoM did not happen, would it change any of your beliefs? If a machine were invented that allowed you to view events that happened thousands of years ago and you found out there was no trace of the Nephites or Lamanites in the Americas, would that change any of your beliefs? Why or why not? At what point does faith simply not cut it for you in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Many people I've encountered say that they have faith and that nothing could sway them from it. Perhaps I just don't understand because I can't fathom believing anything with unquestioning certainty, but I would really like to hear the opinions of people here.

[Honest searching - please help]

I think I understand you, DS. Thanks for the great dialogue. It has been quite delightful. I am going to sign off now and make dinner for the kids. Have a good one.

The pleasure was all mine. I think we've sufficiently derailed this thread for today too.

[Honest searching - please help]

Even if God made himself known unto you?

I've seen too many people that claim God has made himself known unto them and given them messages, completely different and conflicting messages even. So if I had a spiritual experience where I "felt" God, I would take it as evidence, not proof. Feelings are unreliable and easily influenced. I find it more likely that my desire for God to make himself known unto me lead my unconscious mind to simulate that experience.

So yes, I would need a bit more to go on.

[Honest searching - please help]

I can see why it is hard to believe in God. I know. It is hard for me sometimes. It is hard for me to believe man came from apes. Not exactly the most flattering lineage.

It's not hard for me to believe in God, and it's not easy either. Accepting a concept doesn't have a difficulty associated with them for me, I simply accept whatever I've seen the most evidence for. I think that even if I did find massive amounts spiritual evidence for God I would just take the existance of God as my currently accepted theory, I could never take God as an unquestionable concept for the same reason I don't take evolution as an unquestionable concept.

["True and Living Church"]

I wouldn't be offended or think you were arrogant at all. I would think you were making the best determination of truth for yourself. I may disagree, but that is different than being offended and disliking you as a person or degrading you as a person because your view is different than mine.

And that is what I tend to think as well when people say their truth is the only true and living church, but then again some people are more easily offended. I think prisonchaplain nailed the issue though.

["True and Living Church"]

But aren't you missing the obvious? If this church is the one true living church, then does that not make my church a false, dead one by implication? Tell someone who's convinced they are right that they are wrong, and do you expect them to be grateful?

I believe you stated it better than I could. :)

[Honest searching - please help]

Just one more comment......I think to say that let's say the existence of a God can't be proven, is an incomplete understanding of the process. It can be proven much the same way I prove or experience the taste of salt. I don't just believe salt adds flavor to my food blindly. I have tasted it so I know. So in that sense, proof is absolutely there. It just depends on ones ability to expand the definition of "proof". And just like scientific process, spiritual manifestation can be duplicated and re-experienced over and over.

Your analogy only about the salt only shows that that you now associate the salty taste with the object salt, there is no theory to be proven or disproven there. Inferring from a feeling that God exists and is the one sending you that feeling is somewhat different from correlating salt with a taste.

When I say that the existance of God can't be proven, I mean it in the same way that evolution can't be proven, they are both simply theories. You can find mounds of emperical evidence for the theory of evolution and mounds of "spiritual" evidence for the existance of God, but that doesn't make either of them anything more than theories in my mind.

["True and Living Church"]

Let me just say that I am not in the least offended by how the church presents itself, but I can see how someone might be.

Stating that your church is the only true church is like saying that vanilla is the only flavor of ice cream worth eating. It's a matter of opinion that is being stated as a fact and that is inherently arrogant and offensive to some people people. I don't think those people are offended that you believe your church is the only true church, they just take issue with how it is stated. Would you be offended and/or think I'm arrogant if I stated that evolution is the only explaination for human life?

[Honest searching - please help]

For the record, I believe in the principle of evolution. I can see it in nature. I just don't agree with every idea about the theory. Frankly I have seen the theory evolve over time.

Nothing about science is absolute fact.... until someone uses it to disprove religion.

By definition, religion can not be proven or disproven as it must be taken on faith. Also, science doesn't seek to prove or disprove anything, only improve our understanding of the world around us with theories based on experiment and results.

I have to say that anyone trying to disprove religion with science doesn't seem to understand either of the two words.

[Honest searching - please help]

I am a former member of the Church who has been struggling with certain aspects of faith, spirituality, religion, doctrine, etc. for some time now (not just LDS aspects). I am at a point in my life where my previous battles of faith are front and center and I find myself searching for help with honest answers to difficult questions. My research on this forum as well as non-Mormon forums reveals a very strong bias toward the beliefs of each forum's primary membership (which I suppose unfortunately should be expected).

Does anyone out there know of any good forums in which spirituality and belief can be discussed openly and honestly without being labelled "anti," "apologist," etc. and questions can be answered with something more substantial than "have faith" "that's the way my god made things, so there's no reason to question."?

Thanks!

I've read through the posts in this thread and it appears we share a similar philosophy on religion and faith. I consider myself agnostic as well and came to this board for similar reasons. This thread is actually quite similar to one I made not to long ago that you may want to look at: I want to believe

I can't say I've been converted by conversations here, but I will say that I've learned a lot and I think this is a good place to investigate the questions of faith and religion you've brought up. The people here have been accepting of different points of view and questions on religion in general as long as it remains civil.

I'm probably not the person you want to talk to if you want to acquire faith and fit in with your family, but I do enjoy good philosophical discussions.

[Honest searching - please help]

I think I understand the theory. My problem is that it is just that.... a theory! And if I am not mistaken, it is not considered absolute fact until it is made a "law"...like the law of gravity.

Yes evolution is a theory, but then again everything in science is a theory and that is the beauty of it. Nothing in science is absolute fact and nothing claims to be either. We talk about the "law" of gravity and the "laws" of physics because they are observed rules that help with the world around us not because they were once "theories" and then promoted to "laws" because we are so certain of them. A scientific law attempts to describe an observation in nature while a scientific theory attempts to explain it.

Why do I point this out? Because I've heard many people say that evolution is just a "theory" and that they won't buy into it until it is a "law" like gravity. They don't realize that it will only ever be a theory, just as every other mechanism discovered by science. Waiting for a theory to become a law is like waiting for an apple to become an orange.

I'm not saying that evolution is the only explaination or even that you should "believe" it, I'm just making sure no one is discounting evolution simply because it is referred to as a "theory".

Edit: With that said, there is an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence for evolution and I don't know of any biologists that doubt it is possible for evolution to produce a new species.

[Honest searching - please help]

I read somewhere that we share more genetic markers with pigs then we do with ape??? I don't remember where I saw it but I'll look around again.

I haven't heard that, but it sounds like a sensationalist news story prompted by a journalist looking for a headline and having little or no understanding of the subject (those seem to run rampant). I'm fairly certain we are most genetically similar to chimpanzees as they are our closest relatives.

[Honest searching - please help]

May I just say something about the 'theory of evolution' - that's exactly what it is, a theory. There is no factual documentation that backs up the notion that mankind evolved from any kind of ape. If evolution were a fact why are there not evolving species now on earth?

I agree with Willow, except let me clarify one smal point.... All species on the earth at this time are evolving, but where is the species in between man and apes?? Wouldn't there still be some??? The Apes are still here, fish are still here, amebia are still on the earth. I'm not trying to be confrontational, I would honestly like some answers too. Evolution happens, but I don't think that man came from apes and I honestly don't think science is perfect therefore the answers we get from our tests are not perfect or completely correct.

I would like to clarify a few points in the theory of evolution. Since you say you would like to know, I will explain to the best of my ability. Keep in mind that I am a software developer with a background in science, not a biologist so I have limited knowledge on the subject.

Yes, species are still evolving and we can observe that in organisms with very short life span, like bacteria. That is why you are instructed to keep taking antibiotics even after you're feeling better or you might create a strain of bacteria resistant to that antibiotic.

So why are species still here if they "evolved"? Because there is still a niche for them to fill. When a segment of the population gets seperated and starts adapting to fill a new niche, that doesn't mean all of the population needs to follow, this is how species branch off over time.

We didn't evolve FROM the apes that we know today, we simply share a common ancestor that not longer exists. This can be verified by examining the DNA that we share, including various pieces of "junk DNA" left behind by viruses (ERVs) millions of years ago that only gets passed from parent to child. Many consider this the strongest evidence of evolution as you can track where species branched off from one another very accurately through the ERVs they share in their DNA.

I hope that helps.

[Is the law of tithing for every member?]

If he were to appear to each of us then we would have no need for faith and we would not grow.

That is exactly my point. Presumably God set up the rules, why require everyone to come to him on faith rather than just appear to everyone or leave some kind of emperical evidence of his existance? Wouldn't you want your children to know you exist?

[Is the law of tithing for every member?]

The concept of tithing is not really about punishment. It is about faith and blessings that reward faith and lead one to have some form of evidence and confirmation of their faith. I think it helps if you remember we think of God as our literal father and that He is raising us to the best things..... the things of the eternities. The law of tithing is a mechanism of producing and stretching faith. It is a teaching tool...... and a way for God to accomplish the purpose of the church on the earth. I don't think God is going around punishing every unknowing person for not paying tithing. Where there is no law, there is no punishment. And God DOES bless his children because he loves them. Whether they acknowledge him or not. Perhaps He has blessed you and will continue to bless you to prepare you for your great purpose here on the earth. I do that with my own children whether they clean their rooms or not to help prepare them for the day when they will love their own children.

I think that you are absolutely right about "buying" physical blessings. If someone has that attitude, they simply do not understand or perhaps do not understand fully. And that is perhaps ok because we all are in progress. The concept of tithing is taught over and over in church classes and meetings just for this very reason..... to give each person a chance to raise their understandings and in short, become more converted. It is clear to me, from many recent posts on tithing that we definitely need more lessons on the subject.

Does God reward and manipulate the physical world? Does he withhold from the unfaithful and disobedient? I think the best place to find the answers to these questions is in the scriptures. It is clear that the children of Israel experienced something similar in their comings and goings. The 10 commandments is a good example. The Lord had intended to give a higher law with higher blessings but because the people were wicked, they were given the 10 commandments and the lower law of moses. Many times the Lord has withdrawn his Spirit and his Priesthood from the earth because of wickedness. In the BOM, the righteous armies had the power of the Lord behind them. And in their missionary work, they experienced much influence from the Lord. In my own life, I can feel when the Holy Ghost has withdrawn from me. Like when I am teaching a lesson in Church and I know that I am only teaching with my earthly abilities. I know what it is like to teach with the Spirit and they are drastically different feelings. I can also tell, when I am given a blessing, the difference between someone who has the spirit and someone who doesn't. So, that helps me to see that God does withhold blessings. He does that to teach us. Sometimes the children of men are hard of hearing or stubborn in the arm of the flesh and God helps to remind them who he is. It is all done with Love because he wants his children to know him and know how he works and then he wants them to obey him because he is the only way to earthy and eternal happiness.

I think that it is also important to remember that God knows each one of us personally. He gives each one of us different circumstances. Why? Because he knows what we need. Sometimes having abundance is as much of a trial as not having it. I cannot judge the will of the Lord. But I do know this, that for those that have experienced spiritual knowledge, in or out of the church, God then requires more of them. And regardless of the blessings one may get vs another, the law of tithing is about obedience and faith. So maybe while you have recieved your "perks", God is waiting in the wings to see what you will choose before he blesses you with things like added faith and spiritual knowledge.

I was also thinking about the long term blessings that come to a person or family who pays tithing. The scriptures tell of the parable of the 10 virgins and their lamps of oil. 5 who were prepared and 5 who were not. In that long process of constant and diligence in obedience something is gained that the occasional observer will never know. It makes that person more refined and more prepared. Refiners fire stuff. Those who don't observe the law CAN't get what the others have no matter how giving those others may be. These are the kinds of blessings that come only for the individual who is dedicated and committed and with whom the Lord will be well pleased.

You are a very insightful individual. On more than one occasion you have caused me to think about things in a way I had not before considered. I still tend to disagree in most cases, but if there is hope for me accepting the Gospel in this lifetime it is because of people like you. I apologize in advance for the following rant, it sounds harsh but is only expressing my internal struggle and I truly want to know your opinion on it.

I've heard the analogy many times that God is watching us like a parent would watch over their child. It's a powerful analogy evoking loving feelings and intentions from our creator, however I can't help but think that it's a flawed analogy. What parent would deny their children even the slightest evidence of their own existance? If God is omnipotent he could easily appear to each of us or simply give us all the evidence we need to conclude he exists (as individuals it's different for each of us). What parent would remain silent while their children kill each other? I get that we all have free agency, but I just find it hard to believe that God would not intervene in any way to save thousands of his children from painful deaths, but He would go out of his way to intervene and reward those who have paid their tithing. Thinking of it that way makes God sound nothing short of sadistic, so I find it prefereable to think that He does not interfere at all in our affairs (which has also been supported by my personal observations).

[Is the law of tithing for every member?]

I have gotten certain money in the mail, when I needed it... Such as a tax return (last year's). I got a random phone call asking me if I wanted a job that would give me, essentially, just enough money to pay for my cellphone bill without worry.

My mom has received money, I can't remember what from (some sort of error or bonus), that we needed at the moment for some behind bills or emergency.

All this I attribute to me paying faithful tithes. (Yes, even my mom's money. I'm the sole member and priesthood holder in my family, and the whole "cup runneth over" thing)

• 3 Ne. 24: 10

  10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

I also receive a sense of spiritual peace knowing that there's something I can do that the Lord has asked me to, and I can actually measure it and know I'm being faithful. There's a lot of commandments, but this one I can actually keep track of and know that I'm doing well.

You could call it luck, or coincidence, or even point out that those things happen to other people who don't pay tithes all the time. That's true. But I know WHY they happened for me. Other people... They got their blessings for whatever reason, mine is a direct result of my obedience.

Spiritual peace I respect and can understand that as being a reward for tithing, but do you think that God looks at all those who gave tithing and carefully manipulates the physical world to sometimes give them special perks as a result? I've gotten very similar perks as you while being blatantly disobedient by your standards. You can say its for different reasons, maybe He recognizes that I'm a good person despite my lack of faith, but if there is an omnipotent God out there interfering with the physical world to reward the faithful, wouldn't He then withhold those rewards from the non faithful and disobedient if that were truly the criterea He is rewarding?

Don't get me wrong, I think paying tithing is a wonderful thing for those who do, but the attitude some people get essentially equating it to "buying" physical blessings somewhat puts me off. I know that is not the intent so I don't fault the church for this, but the way people see it still fascinates me.