Do You Know Any "actives" Who Question?

[Ray]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 27 2004, 05:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 27 2004, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Jan 27 2004, 04:54 PM

Antishock,

My question to you is: How do you know that you know the truth NOW?

If the Book of Mormon is NOT true, how do you know that?

I guess my answer to you Ray, is that I know the BoM is just as Not True as Santa Claus. Untestability is a logical fallacy...which is the only the way that I understand the BoM to be thought of as True.

I can understand a person who says they have doubts about whether or not the Book of Mormon is true, but a person who will say that they know that the Book of Mormon is NOT true should have some kind of evidence which helped them to know that, shouldn’t they?

Santa Claus is a great example. I can’t say for a fact that Santa Claus does not exist, but I do not have Faith in him. I do not have God’s assurance that there is a Santa Claus, and I do not have an assurance from a Santa Claus that there is a Santa Claus, at least not the Santa Claus that I once believed in as a child. After my parents told me that they were the ones who put the presents under the Christmas tree, and showed me some of the receipts, I then knew that the person who brought me those presents wasn’t Santa Claus. If there is a Santa Claus, he doesn’t visit anyone else I know either.

My belief in the Book of Mormon is different. I have an assurance from God that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be, and that assurance that I feel is real. I can’t show that assurance to you because that assurance is a feeling, and feelings aren’t tangible, but that doesn’t negate the fact that it is still a form of evidence.

Before I had God’s assurance that the Book of Mormon is true, I didn’t have it, and I think that may be where you are now. Or if you once had it, you lost it or forgot it. If I were you, I’d ask God for His assurance again, with a sincere desire to know the truth. There’s nothing wrong with not knowing something, or to have doubts about whether or not something is true. It’s only wrong to say that you know something is NOT true when you have no evidence to support that position.

[Guest antishock82003]

1) You obviously didn't give my post (the one you responded to) a thourough reading.

2) It's painfully obvious you're not familiar with Untestability as a logical fallacy. I suspect that if you were you wouldn't have said what you just said.

[Guest estump]

Peace,

I follow Kirby quite often simply because the man ROCKS! :-) I posted the link because I agree w/ his statement that our greatest obstacles will always be, ourselves. I got the link from some where a looooooooong while back....probably off of the fringe. I saved the link and article in my files for future reference and just to reread. My sister laughed her bum off at his 13 particles of faith when I read them to her over the phone. We both have never been Molly types and we felt out of place A LOT!

I firmly believe the Lord loves my individuality. I firmly believe I will find my own unique way to express my belief within the church. Father didn't make us the same on purpose. A person can only become something they don't want to be, if they let it happen. If you think back to who your favorite leaders were growing up...they almost ALWAYS were the 'weird' ones. They didn't fit the mold. The Lord uses our uique talents for His glory and it's as simple as that.

I think we make it harder than it needs to be sometimes. (I definitely include myself in that statement.)

I believe in the BoM simply because it's purpose is to witness of a Living Christ. It does that. I've had that witness. Therefore I believe the BoM as it testifies of Christ. Whether or not everything is historically correct is of little importance to me. The only way we'll know the p's and q's of it all is when we die. That's my two cents on that issue.

In the book I am reading there was a chapter about God being or feeling distant. The author suggested that for a time God will warm you w/ warm fuzzies so that you can fully rely on him and grow spiritually. As you grow, he will distance Himself in a sense so that you will learn to rely on your faith and TRUST as opposed to always relying on that 'feeling'. It was an eye opening chapter for me and something I am definitely working on at this time in my life. I have a hard time trusting and I am sure that is my biggest obstacle at this time in my life. BTW this author was NOT LDS, nor has he ever been.

I stand by Kirby's thoughts in this article and thats' the reason I posted it. :-) I am glad you enjoyed it, peace.

Oh, I also wanted to add that everyone questions...whether they do it publically or privately is the only difference.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 27 2004, 02:56 PM

Snow--tell that to M. Quinn regarding his vocal position on womens rights and the ERA etc. Nevertheless, I will admit that I was overstating the problem--even though on a certain level it is true.

Quinn was one of the Sept 7. That was then. Having read a bit on all of them, having met and personally talked to some of them, one worked for my mother, and having heard all of them speak at lenght about their plight, I can't say that I am either surprized nor bothered by their excommunications - with the exception of Gileadi who about whom I know little.

This is now. Seems to be a bit of a new ballgame. Whether today's seemingly more tolerant attitude is a momentary lull or something more extended remains to be seen.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 27 2004, 05:22 PM

and Neal Maxwell -- although the last's alliterative speaking style has been so interminably imitated that it's slowly starting to smother its successfulness.

Is this the Duckly affectation of cleverness? I hope you don't voice this type of skepticism in front of your ducklings... :)

As always, I respect your opinion. You are a lawyer though and are prone to logical thought at all times. I am an actress and tend to get a wee bit emotional on certain issues. I can remember wondering what we are supposed to do when our children come home from Seminary spouting off about the garden of Eden being in America and Noah being in America before the flood. These are things that I absolutely disbelieve. Am I, as a parent, expected to keep my mouth shut about these issues? The talk just p!$$ed me off and left me feeling frustrated as a parent who is trying to help my children use their God given brains.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by estump@Jan 27 2004, 06:58 PM

Peace,

I follow Kirby quite often simply because the man ROCKS! :-) I posted the link because I agree w/ his statement that our greatest obstacles will always be, ourselves. I got the link from some where a looooooooong while back....probably off of the fringe. I saved the link and article in my files for future reference and just to reread. My sister laughed her bum off at his 13 particles of faith when I read them to her over the phone. We both have never been Molly types and we felt out of place A LOT!

I firmly believe the Lord loves my individuality. I firmly believe I will find my own unique way to express my belief within the church. Father didn't make us the same on purpose. A person can only become something they don't want to be, if they let it happen. If you think back to who your favorite leaders were growing up...they almost ALWAYS were the 'weird' ones. They didn't fit the mold. The Lord uses our uique talents for His glory and it's as simple as that.

I think we make it harder than it needs to be sometimes. (I definitely include myself in that statement.)

I believe in the BoM simply because it's purpose is to witness of a Living Christ. It does that. I've had that witness. Therefore I believe the BoM as it testifies of Christ. Whether or not everything is historically correct is of little importance to me. The only way we'll know the p's and q's of it all is when we die. That's my two cents on that issue.

In the book I am reading there was a chapter about God being or feeling distant. The author suggested that for a time God will warm you w/ warm fuzzies so that you can fully rely on him and grow spiritually. As you grow, he will distance Himself in a sense so that you will learn to rely on your faith and TRUST as opposed to always relying on that 'feeling'. It was an eye opening chapter for me and something I am definitely working on at this time in my life. I have a hard time trusting and I am sure that is my biggest obstacle at this time in my life. BTW this author was NOT LDS, nor has he ever been.

I stand by Kirby's thoughts in this article and thats' the reason I posted it. :-) I am glad you enjoyed it, peace.

Oh, I also wanted to add that everyone questions...whether they do it publically or privately is the only difference.

Thanks Erin...

I sent it to my brother and he loved it...He lives in Kansas...so he needs all the good stuff he can get his hands on...LOL

[Ray]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 27 2004, 06:56 PM

1) You obviously didn't give my post (the one you responded to) a thourough reading.

2) It's painfully obvious you're not familiar with Untestability as a logical fallacy.  I suspect that if you were you wouldn't have said what you just said.

"Untestability as a logical fallacy” sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. I'm not sure what you mean by that. I think it implies the idea that if you can’t test something you can’t know whether or not something is true. That makes sense to me. Are you saying that if you can’t see any testable evidence, or any way to test the evidence that proves that the Book of Mormon is true, that you don’t see a good reason to accept that the Book of Mormon is true? That makes sense to me too.

Without Faith, I can easily see how someone would have doubts and be unable to decide whether or not the Book of Mormon is true. But you said, or it at least seem implied to me, that you know that the Book of Mormon is NOT true? That is why I asked about your evidence to support your position. If you have no evidence that can prove to you or anyone else that the Book of Mormon is NOT true, I think you are where most other people are who do not have Faith. I think you should simply say that you have doubts, and do not know, whether or not the Book of Mormon is true, unless you have some kind of evidence that proves to you that the Book of Mormon is true or not true.

And yes, I did read and give consideration to what you said before. You sound like someone who does not see any evidence to show you that the Book of Mormon is true.

[Winnie G]

Thank You Thank You Thank You!

I love Kirby I have written him a few times he always writes back, his wife is from Toronto, I wrote him after he wrote about his experience with cows at a church farm.

I come from a family involved with dairy farming, he made me laugh.

This made me laugh and think, I like the way he makes you think.

[Cal]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 27 2004, 04:48 PM

At some point or another throughout my life, I had a “good feeling” when reading the Book of Mormon and interpreted that feeling to mean the book was correct. It was difficult explain away those spiritual experiences when logic seemed to testify against the perceived truth. It is, however, easy to understand the socialization that leads to a so-called “answer to prayer” that the Book of Mormon is true. In my case, I was raised from birth to believe that if I would sincerely ask God if the Book of Mormon was true, He would tell me it was through a “burning in the bosom”, or good feeling in my heart. The "if" clause in this promise places the responsibility of gaining a testimony of the Book of Mormon on the person praying, not on God. If I did not receive an answer that the Book of Mormon was true, it was assumed I was not sincere in my desire to know the truth. Typically, a child from an LDS family becomes an official member of the church at age eight. Often, this is when the child is encouraged to sincerely begin to pray about whether the Book of Mormon is true. At this young of an age, I was so trusting of my parents and leaders that I obviously received the “correct” answer to my simple childhood prayer requesting a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I was praised for testifying of my new-found answer that the Book of Mormon was in fact true, and commended for the sincerity I must have shown when I asked God if it was true. The validation I received from others only increased those “warm feelings” that I thought to be proof that this book was scripture. Even as a man, I struggled to find new interpretations to the spiritual experiences I felt I had had with the Book of Mormon.

I thought about the idea of a "spiritual witness", and how I've had spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon in the past. The ultimate response to any valid criticism of the book is that you can only confirm its truth through a "spiritual manifestation." I feel, however, that my "spiritual manifestations" earlier in my life regarding the book were due largely to my surrounding culture, and the enormous amount of support for the book in my life. If I think about the book, and how great my life is, how much I love my family and ward members, how much I love God, why wouldn't I get warm fuzzies?

The problem was, whenever I thought through everything in the BoM, it was OBVIOUS that it's bunk, a farce.

The Mind Vs. Feelings, right?

Anyways, I think it’s basically impossible if the Mormon is convincedof the Truthfulness of the Gospel to show him the light. If you’re too pushy, you get the “I know it’s true, my faith won’t be shaken,” that we’ve all said or thought at one time or another. Often, “anti-Mormon” arguments can strengthen a Mormon’s faith. I suppose the best way to do it is to just do it, and not worry about their response. Some people will come around, many won’t. It’s all about seed-planting...you never know when it’ll sprout. I think it takes a period in a person’s life of dissatisfaction with the church, combined with an open mind, for someone to finally come around. At least, that was my situation. Before and after my mission, I experienced enough doubts that when I had the opportunity to go on the internet to Defend the Faith (here at LDSTalk...and no, I wasn't any good at it...no suprise there) I went visited RFM to understand why some Mormons who had been at LDSTalk defending the faith left the Church. After a mission of defending the faith and “knowing” the church was true, I was deeply dissatisfied with the church for some reason (you don't really spend time entertaining your doubts...you just put them on the backburner and try to ignore them...thus leaving you generally dissatisfied). That was when I found RFM, read the stories, realized I wasn’t alone, etc etc.

I guess my point is that eventually seeds can sprout, even in people who figuratively stick their fingers in their ears and shout, “IKNOWTHECHURCHISTRUEIKNOWTHECHURCHISTRUEIKNOWTHECHURCHISTRUE!!!” Some of the people on RFM are evidence of that. There are bishops, a mission president, counselors, RM's, Stake Presidents, and many people who were as LDS as it gets (and to be fair...NeverMo's, Not-So-Mo's, and Jack Mo's). So, you never know.

Anti--I appreciate your candor. I'm not sure if I am at the point of wanting to convince others that they should leave the Church, or even necessarily think like I do--though I'm sure I sound like it sometimes. I think some of the folks we talk to here desperately need to avoid the ambiguity of not KNOWING the ultimate purpose of the universe. I say, if you need it, keep it. But that doesn't mean that if you profess you KNOWLEDGE to others on the talk site others aren't going to ask you to defend it---it's more interesting that way anyhow.